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Visions for the starting point of the Heartline

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Visions for the starting point of the Heartline

Post  Magda van Dijk-Rijneke on Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:52 pm

Vision master class for the location of the Heart Line
Last year we have had the theme location Heartline in the Master class of the School of Universal Handanalysis/Palmistry. I do like to give you all the results.

Researcher Magda van Dijk- Rijneke
I've gone through my books over 188 and there are some other interpretations available.
27 books to choose the radius side, so only 1/7 percent.
Only five books describe the difference of vision with a traditional method chosen.
So all 161 of my books are about the ulna side.

There are two different views about the beginning of the Heart Line.
Some Indian and Western traditional hand analysts [eg Benham (USA) and Yaschpaule (Malaysia)] think that the Heartline under the Jupiter finger from the side range begins. Other Indian and Western analysts also now using more modern means analysts (including Lori Reid and Bevely Jaegers) think the opposite that the Heartline from the ulna side under the mount of Mercury begins.

1) The traditionalists think more of the (medical) aspects of life such as bloodstream or live flow those from Jupiter. Still others find that the mount of Jupiter is the physical residence of the soul, the personal source of power over the heart, mind and body there. The undercurrent of life that from that point on the hand spreads.
The modern traditionalists believe that Jupiter or Saturn features a great impact on the Heartline, in terms of sexuality.
2) The modernists believe that all emotions are instinctive, so it makes sense that the Heartline of the instinctive (ulna) side of the hand begins.
This view is reinforced by the fact that the Heartline not often begins with a fork on the Mount of Jupiter, while the Lifeline and Headline never with a fork start, but still use it to end (author fork, Line of Travel, Emigration Line).
When the Heartline in the traditional way is viewed it is difficult to determine the timing and it might be easier for it to start on the percussion.

Several texts from the books of my colleagues

Ulnar side
The Indian School of Handanalysis teaches that the Heartline begins ulna side.
All my German colleagues (23) talking about the ulna side. In 1932 the German Rudolf Engelhardt wrote all about this difference of view.
The Italian Maria Gardini writes that not so long ago that tried to introduce some Chiromanten that the Heartline begins from the mount of Jupiter. But turned back because it lacked logic.
Bevely Jaeger taught first one until she discovered that the line from the ulna started and gave a totally different outlook on the Handanalysis.
The Chinese palmistry, the waterline on which from the start ulna. (Neal Criscuolo, Terence Duke).
Darlene Hansen
believes that the line begins ulna because the little finger with intimate relationships and to do all kinds of communication. Emotions are subjective. And the channel of the Heartline runs from the unconscious conscious side to the side.
Rhoda (study 1960) writes that recently has been discovered that the Line of emotions from the start ulna. She had taught the traditional doctrine and was always confused. Now she is much happier about the modern version
Lori Reid describes again the more traditional analysts using the Heartline from the Jupiter finger will come.
Lori Reid and Jaegers Bevely found from experience that all emotions are instinctive, so it was logical that the Heartline of the instinctive (ulna) side of the hand begins.
Dylan Warren-Davis talks about the Jupiter line that starts from the ulna and runs to the Mount of Jupiter. He thinks the Jupiter properties great influence on the Heartline.
Magda van Dijk-Rijneke writes in her book Universal Palmistry also that the Headline starts from the ulna side and teaches that also her students at the School of Universal Handanalysis/Palmistry


Radius side
Benham
(USA) finds that the Heartline from the Jupiter begins. His assumption is that the life stream flowing through the Jupiter finger and that on that side of the hand is spread like rivers. The blood stream. He learned it from gypsies. Benham was a pioneer and brought his teachings to America and is based on their own studies. In 1900 he wrote the book The Laws of Scientific Hand Reading. This book is still being translated and used in America but is quite outdated. There are no special marks meaning on the lines in his work and that is a major drawback for the development of the Chirology.


Note: Many Americans have learned to use the radius side, but know nothing of this hypothesis. That’s way, many books still use this, but the book Encyclopedia of Palmistry by Edward Campbell, who reveals the origin.


Yaschpaule writes; The Indian School of Handanalysis generally considers the Heartline as starting from the ulna side. Yaschpaule research suggest that it starts from the area of the Mount of Jupiter is. He said that Benham also holds this point of view.
Katakkar (India) describes the disagreement between the Hindu and Western education as follows. According tot the Western convention, the Headline starts on the mount of Jupiter (???) and according to the Hindu method, it starts under the mount of Mercury, ulna side. Katakkar described how it sounded logical but still prefer the traditionalists (see point 1) radius did.
Peter West writes about it, but prefers the traditional (Radius) way, but does not say why.
Ray Douglas writes that there are three lines of a stream of messages to symbolize the human soul. The Jupiter-Saturn properties, as it were through the emotional life (Heartline) submitted. The Jupiterheart may overflow the Saturnheart. He sees Jupiter as the primary source of the three main streams of consciousness.

Worked vision Magda van Dijk-Rijneke
The Heartline begins in the Passive unconscious/emotional area (stands for hidden feelings) and also starts (ulna side) on the Emotional mount of Uranus (stands for emotional dependency).
Walk under the mount of Mercury (self expression) by using the Balance area toward the Active conscious/emotional area (expressing feelings/emotions) and ends on the mount of Jupiter (applicable feelings/emotions).
My experience is that the beginning of the ulna side, below the little finger is usually clearer than that of the radius side. Furthermore, this line can extend, change, bend or break will overlap when the Heartline has been reached the Active conscious/emotional area.
Usually I see that in the area under the Balance area under the mount of Saturn (mastery, self-knowledge, introspection, you turn to find) that changes will take place.
What strikes me is:
The configurations of the Heartline under a finger mount are told that the property of that mountain affects the Heartline and also the Headline
The Heartline can you divide into areas of life. For instance the mercurial (communication) and Saturnian (value). So an island under the Mount of Saturn often gives a depression. This is not necessarily an age-to be passed but can also play in the present. Look at other line-aspects and make connections such as:

• Empathy lines or Healing lines starting upstairs from the Heart Line (loving care and devotion to others with or without emotional involvement) will bring it back at a later age but accentuate the quality of the mount of Mercury.
• Many radius branches downward from the Heartline leading to the side way (emotional disappointments).
• The line of the Inner self is also created from the percussion and goes to the Balance area. What does that person his deepest inner desires to develop or his soul will come to consciously evolve.
• Poisson line also arises from the percussion and is an indication of emotional problems into the realm of imagination to escape
• Also the Dream or Travel lines touching/intersects the Saturnline or Lifeline has emotional impact on the further life

Other views of members of the master class

Mail sent by Wies
It begins at the ulna side, because I think the energy of the line starts there. Headline and Lifeline start at the thumb and Jupiter, the will and the ego. What do you want in life and how you look at life. To determine this, you feel and emotion of the Headlines you need to determine guidelines for that you need to contact the outside world, so that starting with Mercury and Apollo.

Mail Agnes
The Lifeline and the Headline starts both on the radius side and one would think that the Heart Line also starts there. When we look at the progress of the Heartline viewing (from thick to thin) it is more true that the Heartline starts on the ulna side.
If you named the influences of the different lines than the Headline and Lifeline are more the lines of radius (myself) and the Heartline a line of ulna (you and me).

Report: Martine. Jetty, Petra and Cissy recorded by Martine
(Supplement report no substitute)
One theory why the line would start from the other side:
Benham indicates that the flow of life through the finger of Jupiter comes in (extended finger at birth) and from there flows into the Headline (blood flow is initiated), then thought (Headline) and the life energy in operation, because of which life begins (and the other line from the bottom up walking).
The Heartline starts under the Index finger so he says.

Conclusion:
It seems all attendees logical to read the Heartline from the ulna side because:
The Heartline then goes from thick to thin (like a broad river that begins and may fan out into the countryside) and it is more likely a junction at the end of the line to take over at the beginning (in comparison with other lines)
Reading from the ulna side everyone almost always the most reliable/throbbing life displays
Cissy has found that a branch of the Heartline touching the beginning of the Headline/Llifeline becomes mostly a repetition of an event represents (lifeline age and repeated at ages where the branch starts)
-See further elaboration Magda

Because Benham, however focuses on the physical condition (heart, blood, heat) and determine the character (same conclusions for a fork on Jupiter now whether the beginning or end of the line is seen) and not reads the life on the line these theories may well coexist.
Notions such as start / end at no chronological issues are irrelevant and the result is the same (even apart from any substantive differences).

That's how (loosening philosophizing) the line in terms of heart / Health perhaps from the radius side to read, but because we do not at this aspect of palmistry focus and reading from the little finger of events so far very reliable like it is This approach also is not very relevant (see extensive documentation from Magda).
Perhaps if you Benham theory pervades comes the physical part of the axis is at the Jupiter inside, then after starting and going through the bloodstream to the emotional Heartline to start (making the end of the physical line, as it were the beginning, the sense of line and they both like to read axis but in a different direction).


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:25 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Correction: Magda van D-R & Dylan W-D are listed under the ulnar side + title specification)

Magda van Dijk-Rijneke

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Re: Visions for the starting point of the Heartline

Post  Parender on Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:10 am

Hi Magda van Dijk-Rijneke,

Thank you very much for presenting the Vision master class for the location of the Heart Line.

I agree with the conclusion:
“It seems all attendees logical to read the Heart line from the ulna side because:
The Heart line then goes from thick to thin (like a broad river that begins and may fan out into the countryside) and it is more likely a junction at the end of the line to take over at the beginning (in comparison with other lines)
Reading from the ulna side everyone almost always the most reliable/throbbing life displays”

"One of the most unscientific ideas that Benham presents, and which is the underlying 'philosophy' for his interpretations of various features of the hand, is his idea that the lines are expressions of a 'flow of energy' within the palm, presumably taking inspiration from Michaelangelo's painting of God giving life to Adam on the ceiling of the Sistene Chapel in Rome. Benham views the 'life-force energy' entering the hand through the index finger of the person and then 'travelling' down the three main lines of the hand to the wrist, returning back up the hand through the secondary lines. This idea is obviously quite without any empirical substantiation whatsoever, and yet it has influenced generations of hand readers ever since. It is purely this view which has led Benham to believe that the course of the Water line (or Heart line) runs from the index finger to the ulna edge of the palm. Nearly all palmists have followed him in this erroneous interpretation of the line. As is quite clear from the form and structure of the line itself, it 'runs' from the edge of the hand towards the index finger.

Whilst it is true that his book is refreshing for its originality, clarity of written presentation and thoroughness and exactitude, it should no longer be held up as the 'bible' of hand reading as it has been for so long. The book contains far too many fundamental errors of judgments and entirely omits any discussion of the fingerprints or medical dermatoglyphics. Many of the ideas are simply out of date, unsurprisingly for a book written over 100 years ago." These views were expressed by Christopher Jones and I support him.

As the Heart Line governs the emotion, it is logical to believe that it should originate in the house of emotion, near the Marriage or Affection Line that occupies that space between the base of the little finger and the Heart Line. Secondly, the major lines are usually found deeper at the starting point and become lighter as they proceeds and Heart Line is found so. As we change our thoughts and attitudes so lines are changed accordingly. These three lines i.e. Heart Line, Head Line and Life Line seldom change during the life tenure of a subject especially at the staring points, because at that tender age a person cannot be so strong willed to altogether change the nature’s plan, but, from the time the person becomes mature enough to do so. That is why those changes are found in the Heart Line at the termination or at the middle of the line, and that is depending on the person’s will and attitude and the environment in the later years.

Once again thank you for your efforts in this regard.

Parender Sethi



Last edited by Lynn on Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:09 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added quote marks "...")

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Re: Visions for the starting point of the Heartline

Post  Lynn on Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:13 am

Hi Magda, thank you very much for sharing your masterclass. "Starting on ulna" is the same conclusion that the Cheirological Society reached when they did similar study years ago.

Parender I hope you don't mind I edited your message to include quotation marks, to make it clear which words you were quoting from Christopher Jones' website http://www.cheirology.net/history/benham.htm

___________________________________________
Lynn
www.handanalysis.co.uk

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Re: Visions for the starting point of the Heartline

Post  Manfred on Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:57 am

Dear Magda,

you wrote:
"1) The traditionalists think more of the (medical) aspects of life such as bloodstream or live flow those from Jupiter."

We've discussed the topic in the past in different forums again and again. The question is here: Who are the "traditionalists"?

I can't remember any old chiromantist before Cheiro/Benham - back to the 15th century - who worked with a heartline starting on the radial side.

Regards
Manfred


Last edited by Manfred on Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Visions for the starting point of the Heartline

Post  Patti on Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:01 pm

Thank you Magna for presenting this collection of perspectives of the 'starting point' of the heart line.

I'd like to add a third category to the two (modernists and traditionalists) you have included (and include myself to this third category) :

Bio-Cognitionist Very Happy

Thanks!

Patti

Posts : 3912
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Re: Visions for the starting point of the Heartline

Post  Magda van Dijk-Rijneke on Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:17 pm

Manfred wrote:Dear Magda,

you wrote:
"1) The traditionalists think more of the (medical) aspects of life such as bloodstream or live flow those from Jupiter."

We've discussed the topic in the past in different forums again and again. The question is here: Who are the "traditionalists"?

I can't remember any old chiromantist before Cheiro/Benham - back to the 15th century - who worked with a heartline starting on the radial side.

Regards
Manfred

Hi Manfred,

Thank you for your response. The traditionalists are those who still use the outdated theory of Cheiro, Benham ot others, mostly in England and America like Rhoda, Litzka Raymond Gibson, Peter West, Ray Douglas etc.

A Germanbook of Maria Gardini (1984, more than a quarter century ago). She wrote: "Bis vor nicht allzu langer Zeit betrachteten einigen Chiromanten das Gebiet des Jupiterberges als Ursprungsort der Herzlinie und siedelten ihren Endpunkt folglich unterhalb des Merkurberges an. Dieze Gephlogenheit aenderte weder den Wert noch die Bedeuting der Herzlinie, aber aus Grunden der Vereinfachung un der Logik kam man in der letzten Zeit davon ab.

Regards Magda

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Re: Visions for the starting point of the Heartline

Post  Magda van Dijk-Rijneke on Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:25 pm

Patti wrote:Thank you Magna for presenting this collection of perspectives of the 'starting point' of the heart line.

I'd like to add a third category to the two (modernists and traditionalists) you have included (and include myself to this third category) :

Bio-Cognitionist Very Happy



Hi Patty,

I believe to know that there is already a fourth category. But what kind of name should be given, I do'n know yet.

Regards Magda:study:

Magda van Dijk-Rijneke

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Re: Visions for the starting point of the Heartline

Post  Magda van Dijk-Rijneke on Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:29 pm

Parender wrote:Hi Magda van Dijk-Rijneke,

Thank you very much for presenting the Vision master class for the location of the Heart Line.

I agree with the conclusion:
“It seems all attendees logical to read the Heart line from the ulna side because:
The Heart line then goes from thick to thin (like a broad river that begins and may fan out into the countryside) and it is more likely a junction at the end of the line to take over at the beginning (in comparison with other lines)
Reading from the ulna side everyone almost always the most reliable/throbbing life displays”

"One of the most unscientific ideas that Benham presents, and which is the underlying 'philosophy' for his interpretations of various features of the hand, is his idea that the lines are expressions of a 'flow of energy' within the palm, presumably taking inspiration from Michaelangelo's painting of God giving life to Adam on the ceiling of the Sistene Chapel in Rome. Benham views the 'life-force energy' entering the hand through the index finger of the person and then 'travelling' down the three main lines of the hand to the wrist, returning back up the hand through the secondary lines. This idea is obviously quite without any empirical substantiation whatsoever, and yet it has influenced generations of hand readers ever since. It is purely this view which has led Benham to believe that the course of the Water line (or Heart line) runs from the index finger to the ulna edge of the palm. Nearly all palmists have followed him in this erroneous interpretation of the line. As is quite clear from the form and structure of the line itself, it 'runs' from the edge of the hand towards the index finger.

Whilst it is true that his book is refreshing for its originality, clarity of written presentation and thoroughness and exactitude, it should no longer be held up as the 'bible' of hand reading as it has been for so long. The book contains far too many fundamental errors of judgments and entirely omits any discussion of the fingerprints or medical dermatoglyphics. Many of the ideas are simply out of date, unsurprisingly for a book written over 100 years ago." These views were expressed by Christopher Jones and I support him.

As the Heart Line governs the emotion, it is logical to believe that it should originate in the house of emotion, near the Marriage or Affection Line that occupies that space between the base of the little finger and the Heart Line. Secondly, the major lines are usually found deeper at the starting point and become lighter as they proceeds and Heart Line is found so. As we change our thoughts and attitudes so lines are changed accordingly. These three lines i.e. Heart Line, Head Line and Life Line seldom change during the life tenure of a subject especially at the staring points, because at that tender age a person cannot be so strong willed to altogether change the nature’s plan, but, from the time the person becomes mature enough to do so. That is why those changes are found in the Heart Line at the termination or at the middle of the line, and that is depending on the person’s will and attitude and the environment in the later years.

Once again thank you for your efforts in this regard.

Parender Sethi


Hi Parender,

Thank you for you additional information an viewpoints.

Magda

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Re: Visions for the starting point of the Heartline

Post  Magda van Dijk-Rijneke on Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:36 pm

Lynn wrote:Hi Magda, thank you very much for sharing your masterclass. "Starting on ulna" is the same conclusion that the Cheirological Society reached when they did similar study years ago.




Parender I hope you don't mind I edited your message to include quotation marks, to make it clear which words you were quoting from Christopher Jones' website http://www.cheirology.net/history/benham.htm

Hi Lyn, thats great because it is a serious and real science

Magda van Dijk-Rijneke

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Re: Visions for the starting point of the Heartline

Post  Manfred on Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:29 pm

Dear Magda,

thank you for your answer. - No worries. - As I wrote before, it depents what we mean if we talk about the old palmists. I'm sorry, but if I read "classical" or "traditional" palmists, chiromantists or hand reader...I think about the Renaissance authors, because I'm studying it at this time. ( I have and know the book of Gardini).

With best wishes
Manfred

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Re: Visions for the starting point of the Heartline

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:25 pm

Magda van Dijk-Rijneke wrote:
Manfred wrote:Dear Magda,

you wrote:
"1) The traditionalists think more of the (medical) aspects of life such as bloodstream or live flow those from Jupiter."

We've discussed the topic in the past in different forums again and again. The question is here: Who are the "traditionalists"?

I can't remember any old chiromantist before Cheiro/Benham - back to the 15th century - who worked with a heartline starting on the radial side.

Regards
Manfred

Hi Manfred,

Thank you for your response. The traditionalists are those who still use the outdated theory of Cheiro, Benham ot others, mostly in England and America like Rhoda, Litzka Raymond Gibson, Peter West, Ray Douglas etc.

A Germanbook of Maria Gardini (1984, more than a quarter century ago). She wrote: "Bis vor nicht allzu langer Zeit betrachteten einigen Chiromanten das Gebiet des Jupiterberges als Ursprungsort der Herzlinie und siedelten ihren Endpunkt folglich unterhalb des Merkurberges an. Dieze Gephlogenheit aenderte weder den Wert noch die Bedeuting der Herzlinie, aber aus Grunden der Vereinfachung un der Logik kam man in der letzten Zeit davon ab.

Regards Magda

Hello Magda & Manfred!

Thank you for pointing out your ideas about 'traditionalists' versus 'modernists'.

I would like to add here that before Magda's 'traditionalists' (starting with Benham) there already was the ancient Indian perspective - which described centuries ago assumed that the heart line starts under the pinky finger (ulnar side). You can see this confirmed in for example the work of 'Sariraka Sastra - Indian science of hand reading based on Kartikeyan system' (translated in 1960 by V.A.K. Ayer).

Therefore I think that Magda's vocabulary choice about 'traditionalists' & 'modernists' is actually a bit confusing - because I think it is quite obvious that the only true 'traditional' perspective should be labeled to the old Indian approach.


Also, I observe that an important issue is missing in Maga's considerations. And I recognize the relevance of Patti's suggestion, because in the 20th century scientists have made important discoveries about the development of the hand - which e.g. point out that the hand & fingers development starts at the thumb (the thumb seperates from the hand plate at an earlier stage than the other finger, and later the other finger follow with the pinky finger as the final stage).

And a likewise order has been observed for the development of the major hand lines: first the life line starts developing at the thumb side, then the heart line becomes manifest at the thumb side (radial side), and only then a second branch of the heart line becomes manifest below the pinky/ring finger (ulnar side). And at a later stage the head line becomes manifest - starting at the radial side. Then these lines are getting longer, and e.g. the connection between both parts of the heart line is made.

Japanes palmist Hachiro Asano has presented many more details about how to understand the scientific discoveries about hand development in the perspective of palmistry in his book: 'Hands - The complete book of palmistry'.

And Ed Campbell's article 'Fingerprints & Dermatoglyphics' also describes some of these important aspects of the hand development - see the chapter: 'PHYSICAL DERMATOGLYPHIC DEVELOPMENT':

http://www.edcampbell.com/PalmD-History.htm

"... By about the eighth week of gestation the thenar crease becomes visible starting on the radial side of the hand between the thumb and index finger. Around the ninth week of gestation, the metacarpophalangeal creases (between the palm and the fingers) are visible and the distal interphalangeal crease barely is visible. The thenar crease continues to be visible. As we progress into the tenth week the proximal interphalangeal creases start to become visible. The 12th week brings signs of the distal transverse crease across the palm starting under the area between the index and middle fingers to later extend to the ulnar margin of the palm. By the thirteenth week both the distal and proximal transverse creases are becoming visible and after the 14th week of gestation at the 15th week all palmer creases can be clearly seen. The onset for spontaneous movement of the hand has not been reported until about the middle of the 11th week of pregnancy and fetuses are reported to begin to tightly grasp at 16 to 20 weeks.(136) It would therefore appear that the palmer creases are genetically rather than mechanically induced. It is also interesting to note that Hale observed that dermal ridge differentiation also advances "progressively from the apical pads proximally and in the radio-ulnar (or tibio-fibular) direction."(137)

We find in interesting to note that the progress of the development of these creases is from the radial to the ulnar side of the hand. ..."



I think these materials about the biology of the hand lines illustrate that from an anatomical point of view Benham's approach could very well be not far away from the truth (Cheiro adopted this approach later as well). So I can not support Magda's conclusions about this topic.


thinking Finally, another potentially confusing element could be ... that one should better not confuse this discussion with the issue of 'how to time the hand lines.'. Because over the years many palmists, hand analysts & hand readers over the world have developed very different ideas (not just 2, 3 or 4 ideas but literally dozens of ideas!) about 'how to time the hand lines' - with the purpose to read/study/predict events from those lines.

And beyond the issue of on which side the heart line starts (developing), there are many very experienced hand readers around the world that the hand lines are not suitable for the purpose of 'timing' events, etc.


It may require careful reading, but this all makes sense. And I think the study of the hand development from the biological perspective is an important requirement in order to learn the development order of the hand lines properly.

scratch Unfortunately... far most authors in the field of hand reading appear to have hardly any knowledge about this - because despite that this is really fascinating stuff, most authors of them have not mentioned the biological aspect of the hand lines in their book(s) at all!!!

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

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Re: Visions for the starting point of the Heartline

Post  Manfred on Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:15 am

Dera Martijn,

I have another point of view than what's your opinion when you wrote: "....because I think it is quite obvious that the only true 'traditional' perspective should be labeled to the old Indian approach."

If we go back in the Occident there were other sources iportant for the chiromanty or palmistry culture. the first sources are still laying in the dark a came from the Arabs a some very old hand written scipst mention. The beginning of the book printing around 1450 with J. Gutenberg brought a great impulse, because around 1500 (upt to 1700) there have been written a very lot important physiognomy and chiromanty books.

If we study it we find that here are the founder of the European or Occidental chiromanty, palmistry or what ever you prefer to say for it. They don't only reproduce what they've heard before but they also did own studies and researchings.

This can we find for excamples in the books of Belot (the English translation did Saunders), Hoeping, Ingebern, Rothmann (he combined it with classical astrology), Meyens (he used medical chiromanty and did researchings on that field) and more. - Last Friday I hold the book of Bartholomei della Rocca, called Cocles, from 1503 a.D. in my hands, written in Latin. Probably on of the very first who set the planets in the palm.

These books were printinged again and again and all these old Renaissance chiromantist influenced what came after theme in our region, even Desbarolles. Therefore this and not the Indians is clearly what we can call the Occidental tradition if we follow the meaning of the word.

Naturally if we look on the history of palmistry we find another important change at the end of the 19th century. Simplified: From the beginning of this time the Indian knowledge started influencing our palmistry and the English palmistry the Indian, too!

I'm tired to discuss the beginning of the heart line again and again, therefore I'll exclude this theme in my votes in the future.

Regards
Manred

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Re: Visions for the starting point of the Heartline

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:26 am

Manfred wrote:Dera Martijn,

I have another point of view than what's your opinion when you wrote: "....because I think it is quite obvious that the only true 'traditional' perspective should be labeled to the old Indian approach."

...

I'm tired to discuss the beginning of the heart line again and again, therefore I'll exclude this theme in my votes in the future.

Regards
Manred

Hi Manfred,

Thanks for mentioning the 'ocident' (= earliest Western) perspective once again.

By the way, in one of the earlier discussions about this topic you wrote:

"In the past I've looked for the "start" in all the old books (Cocles, Rothmann, Saunders, Belot...) before Cheiro and found, if they tell anything about the chronologically reading of lines, they begin at the percussion. In the moment I can't remember that I found anyone of the elder palmistmen before him who was reading it in reverse like the respected Cheiro."

http://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t1023p30-how-should-the-heart-line-be-read


I conclude from your words in this quote that the issue of the starting point of the heart line, the 'occident' perspective does not really differ from the ancient Indian perspective: in both times the starting point of the heart line was assumed at the ulnar side - below the pinky finger.

So I think your input in the other discussion actually CONFIRMS my observation that the idea that the heart line starts below the pinky finger... should be recognized as the only true 'traditional approach' for this topic. And the earliest Western hand readers appear to have used the same approach regarding this topic.

Thanks!

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Re: Visions for the starting point of the Heartline

Post  Manfred on Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:23 pm

Dear Martijn,

you wrote: "So I think your input in the other discussion actually CONFIRMS my observation that the idea that the heart line starts below the pinky finger... should be recognized as the only true 'traditional approach'."

I absolutely agree with you in this point!

Within the last months I completed my collection by some old chiromanty books printed around 1500 and they all include this point of view. Only some Indians after (Kattakar) Cheiro wrote about the start of the heart line on the Jupiter mount....and work with the start at the ulnar side.

By the way another interesting findig: The old(est) authors didn't use "Apollon" for the ring finger or mount or line but "Sun".

The old scipts are so interesting.

Regards
Manfred

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Re: Visions for the starting point of the Heartline

Post  Patti on Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:43 pm

I think this idea of a beginning and end to the heart line generally represents a separation from the head line. The head line is not generally found as moving from the ulnar to the radial, and the heart line isn't seen as moving from the radial side to the ulnar.

This concept also helps in better recognizing a deep crease connecting to the heart line from the radial side has properties relating to the head line. i.e. Suwon Crease.

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Re: Visions for the starting point of the Heartline

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:52 pm

Manfred wrote:Dear Martijn,

you wrote: "So I think your input in the other discussion actually CONFIRMS my observation that the idea that the heart line starts below the pinky finger... should be recognized as the only true 'traditional approach'."

I absolutely agree with you in this point!

Within the last months I completed my collection by some old chiromanty books printed around 1500 and they all include this point of view. ...

Very nice to hear that confirmed Manfred!

Thanks!

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Re: Visions for the starting point of the Heartline

Post  Manfred on Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:07 am

Dear Patty and Martijn,

I'm just out of office for several days. When I'll be back I'll put in here two drawings of Bartholomaeus della Roccas (Cocles) book. It was possible to draw copies of the icnluding pictures in the Bavarian library because it isn't allowed to make any fotos or electronical copies.
It's interesting to read and know the expressions and declarations of this, one of the oldest Occidental chiromancy books. An excample as an addition our topic here: He called the heart line the line of moral, too.

Regards
Manfred

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Re: Visions for the starting point of the Heartline

Post  Patti on Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:53 pm

Magda van Dijk-Rijneke wrote:Vision master class for the location of the Heart Line

Several texts from the books of my colleagues

Ulnar side
The Indian School of Handanalysis teaches that the Heartline begins ulna side.
All my German colleagues (23) talking about the ulna side. In 1932 the German Rudolf Engelhardt wrote all about this difference of view.
The Italian Maria Gardini writes that not so long ago that tried to introduce some Chiromanten that the Heartline begins from the mount of Jupiter. But turned back because it lacked logic.
Bevely Jaeger taught first one until she discovered that the line from the ulna started and gave a totally different outlook on the Handanalysis.
The Chinese palmistry, the waterline on which from the start ulna. (Neal Criscuolo, Terence Duke).
Darlene Hansen
believes that the line begins ulna because the little finger with intimate relationships and to do all kinds of communication. Emotions are subjective. And the channel of the Heartline runs from the unconscious conscious side to the side.
Rhoda (study 1960) writes that recently has been discovered that the Line of emotions from the start ulna. She had taught the traditional doctrine and was always confused. Now she is much happier about the modern version
Lori Reid describes again the more traditional analysts using the Heartline from the Jupiter finger will come.
Lori Reid and Jaegers Bevely found from experience that all emotions are instinctive, so it was logical that the Heartline of the instinctive (ulna) side of the hand begins.


Radius side
Benham
(USA) finds that the Heartline from the Jupiter begins. His assumption is that the life stream flowing through the Jupiter finger and that on that side of the hand is spread like rivers. The blood stream. He learned it from gypsies. Benham was a pioneer and brought his teachings to America and is based on their own studies. In 1900 he wrote the book The Laws of Scientific Hand Reading. This book is still being translated and used in America but is quite outdated. There are no special marks meaning on the lines in his work and that is a major drawback for the development of the Chirology.


Note: Many Americans have learned to use the radius side, but know nothing of this hypothesis. That’s way, many books still use this, but the book Encyclopedia of Palmistry by Edward Campbell, who reveals the origin.


Yaschpaule writes; The Indian School of Handanalysis generally considers the Heartline as starting from the ulna side. Yaschpaule research suggest that it starts from the area of the Mount of Jupiter is. He said that Benham also holds this point of view.
Katakkar (India) describes the disagreement between the Hindu and Western education as follows. According tot the Western convention, the Headline starts on the mount of Jupiter (???) and according to the Hindu method, it starts under the mount of Mercury, ulna side. Katakkar described how it sounded logical but still prefer the traditionalists (see point 1) radius did.
Dylan Warren-Davis talks about the Jupiter line that starts from the ulna and runs to the Mount of Jupiter. He thinks the Jupiter properties great influence on the Heartline.
Peter West writes about it, but prefers the traditional (Radius) way, but does not say why.
Magda van Dijk-Rijneke writes in her book Universal Palmistry also that the Headline starts from the ulna side and teaches that also her students at the School of Universal Handanalysis/Palmistry
Ray Douglas writes that there are three lines of a stream of messages to symbolize the human soul. The Jupiter-Saturn properties, as it were through the emotional life (Heartline) submitted. The Jupiterheart may overflow the Saturnheart. He sees Jupiter as the primary source of the three main streams of consciousness.


Hi Magda,
While researching something else I noticed that Noel Jaquin goes into your list of heart lines that start (and are dated) from the Radial side.

"The Heart line begins usually between the first and second fingers and ends on the percussion and is read in this order." Chiro-Psychology Noel Jaquin and Vera Compton

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Vision the beginning of the Heartline

Post  Magda van Dijk-Rijneke on Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:40 pm


Dear Patti, Wow I have a also a very old yellowed book from Noele Jaquin: The signature of time.We can put this book on the list. Vera Compton, I do not know her



Dear Patti, Manfred, Martijn and Parender,

Incidentally, the first part of my article and listing covers what I have achieved in my 188 books. Not I, but they were talking about the traditionalists, modern traditionalists and modernists. I found one book back again, see the book by Peter West Lifelines. Peter West writes about it, but prefer the traditional (Radius) way, but does not say why? So I hope that every body had read more than only that part.

Annyway, maybe I am wrong, but none of the MHR Forum writes about his own experience, the experiences of the radiusside or
ulnaside, beside Parender Sethi. See my detailed vision and those from the master class. Than we have still the question, why the radius end of the Heartline is always thinner or even to extend?

The Information of Edward and Martijn about the origins of the Heartline is very interesting and neccessary to introduce as a new topic.



Warm regards

Magda

</SPAN>


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Re: Visions for the starting point of the Heartline

Post  Manfred on Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:11 pm

Dear Magda,

I work with the start of the heart line on the ulnar side.

We've discussed the topic in every forum before and again and again. Sometimes I've got hot replies about my point of view. The scientific meaning isn't all other than new.

Sometimes I've stored statements like this of Patti from the 10th January 2004. I think it is from the Handreading Cyber Cafe (thank you Lynn, it was a great time!) sunny :

"....I wonder tho researchers who are studying deceased fetuses are looking at the radial side of the girdle of venus or actually the heart line beginnings....they can do longer watch what happens as developement is creased...."

Regards
Manfred

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Re: Visions for the starting point of the Heartline

Post  Patti on Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:14 pm

Manfred wrote:Dear Magda,

I work with the start of the heart line on the ulnar side.

We've discussed the topic in every forum before and again and again. Sometimes I've got hot replies about my point of view. The scientific meaning isn't all other than new.

Sometimes I've stored statements like this of Patti from the 10th January 2004. I think it is from the Handreading Cyber Cafe (thank you Lynn, it was a great time!) sunny :

"....I wonder tho researchers who are studying deceased fetuses are looking at the radial side of the girdle of venus or actually the heart line beginnings....they can do longer watch what happens as developement is creased...."

Regards
Manfred

You gave me a big smile Manfred!

I still agree with myself.

wave

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Re: Visions for the starting point of the Heartline

Post  Manfred on Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:48 pm

Dear Patti,

you are wellcome Thumbs up!

Sorry, I've made a mistake. The end of the sentence was: "...they can no longer watch what happens as developement is ceased..."

Manfred

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Re: Visions for the starting point of the Heartline

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:20 am

Magda van Dijk-Rijneke wrote:...

Dear Patti, Manfred, Martijn and Parender,

Incidentally, the first part of my article and listing covers what I have achieved in my 188 books. Not I, but they were talking about the traditionalists, modern traditionalists and modernists. I found one book back again, see the book by Peter West Lifelines. Peter West writes about it, but prefer the traditional (Radius) way, but does not say why? So I hope that every body had read more than only that part.

Hi Magda,

Thank you for explaining this! Thumbs up!


PS. Peter West mentions that there is a 'third party': those who argue that the heart line does not have a starting point nor an ending point (as an argument he is refering to the varying structure at the radial side).

I don't understand his argument regarding this 'third party', but history shows that his choice of words is wrong: his view (heart line starts at the ulnar side) should better be described as the 'traditional view', because in the ancient India people had already used that view.

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Re: Visions for the starting point of the Heartline

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:04 am

Magda van Dijk-Rijneke wrote:... Than we have still the question, why the radius end of the Heartline is always thinner or even to extend?

Yes, usually the ulnar part (at the pinky side) of the heart line is wider than the radial part (at thethumb side) ... but not always!

For example: have you ever heard of the 'hockeystick'-crease?

See:
http://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t410-the-hockey-stick-crease-a-characteristic-in-charge-fetal-alcohol-syndrome




Magda, the answer to your question is found in the anatomy of the hand (and it's early development!). There are probably at least two patterns involved in the typical structure of the heart line:


ASPECT 1 - When a line ends at the edge of the palm, it's structure is usually wide at the point where the line reaches the edge. This is usually also seen in:
- horizontal lines in the mount of moon which end at the ulnar edge of the palm;
- mars lines which end at the radial edge of the palm
- the hockey-stick crease, where the upper part ends at the edge between the pointer finger & middle finger (see the picture below).

When a line ends at the edge of the palm this is likely to cause extra 'stress' in the skin.


ASPECT 2 - But especially when the location of the lines is positioned close to the outer edges of the hand bones (one can think about the 'knuckles' of the finger bones, the 'knuckles' of the metacarpals, and the 'wrist bones') this appears to create additional 'stresses' in the skin - due to the movements involved with the 'knuckles' & 'wrist bones'.


Combining these two ASPECTS is helpful to understand why the outer edges of the life-, heart- and head line are usually the most prominent aspects of the hand lines. Because those are usually the only points of hand where both ASPECTS are involved!

Additionally, the upper ending of the 'hockey-stick crease' and the lower ending of the fate line (especially when it reaches close towards the wrist bones) can have an almost likewise strong structure.


Finally, it is also important to notice here that these structures do not directly relate to how the lines develop in the hand. Because medical researchers have observed that in embryos the ulnar part of the heart line (= wider part) starts developing in a later phase in the development of the body compared to the radial part of the heart line (= the narrower part).

And a likewise pattern is seen regarding the development of the fate line: in embryos this lines starts developing in the upper half of the palm, and the wider part becomes manifest in a later phase in the development of the body.


PS. Reading more about the early development of the hand lines might be required to visualize what I have just described - various 'palmistry' authors have written about certain aspects that I have just described. I can recommend the works of: Hachiro Asano ('Hands'), Ed Campbell (his website article 'Fingerprints & Dermatoglyphics'), and David Brandon-Jones & Veronica Bennett (Your Palm - Barometer of your health).

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Re: Visions for the starting point of the Heartline

Post  Manfred on Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:10 am

Hi Martijn,

first of all it think its a great difference between the early embyonic developement and a child after birth. I think everyone who accompanied the birth of a child will agree that the first cry is big step. It's like a big step over a threshold when the concious awaiks or when the soul comes in, how the older said.

But I agree in the point that it can be interesting to read the heart line from the radial or both sides if we work on the field of characterological chirology.

But it's quite different if we read the heart line chronologically, what Cheiro doesn't and I don't know if Benham does though he shows a heart line time scale in his "Scientific hand reading...".

For this reason I would prefer according to your former vote:
"traditional view of chronologically hand reading".

Regards
Manfred

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