Your opinion & share...
Latest topics
» V - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!
Yesterday at 11:19 am by Martijn (admin)

» Change of direction of fate line
Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:31 pm by Prej52

» Palm reading please reply.
Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:56 am by pravin kumar

» Seeking Medical Palmistry Author
Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:11 pm by jezlucky

» Travel Lines
Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:12 am by kalki

» Simian Line / Single Transverse Palmar Crease
Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:26 pm by Martijn (admin)

» Hasta Samudrika Shastra - the most ancient palmistry system!
Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:13 am by Martijn (admin)

» Hands & the Major Factor of Personality!
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:41 pm by Martijn (admin)

» best way to learn
Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:00 pm by Martijn (admin)

» THE MOST CHALLENGING HAND: Simian Lines, Murderer’s Thumbs & Radial loops
Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:05 am by lawrencerook

» Palm is blackish
Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:57 am by pravin kumar

» Worries and stress
Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:03 pm by bmcgowra

» is chinese palmistry compatible with western palmistry
Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:49 pm by nuttyprofessor

» wheel sign on the palm
Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:53 pm by appanna

» White spots on palm
Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:05 am by Lynn

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 


Rechercher Advanced Search

Who is online?
In total there are 38 users online :: 1 Registered, 0 Hidden and 37 Guests

Martijn (admin)

[ View the whole list ]


Most users ever online was 293 on Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:22 am
Moderators & partners

• Discover the Modern Hand Reading Forum partners:

Would you like to see your website listed?

Modern Hand Reading Forum Partners

Pointing finger: check this out!

Statistics
We have 5225 registered users
The newest registered user is HannaKarlsson

Our users have posted a total of 43301 messages in 4303 subjects
Recommendations

• The FREE hand reading services at the Modern Hand Reading Forum are being continued in 2015 with the assistance of Google adsense!


Pointing finger: check this out!



Google+
MAJOR HAND READING SYNONYMS
Palmistry, Palm Reading, Hand Analysis, Chirology & Chiromancy.

Learn how to read hands according the Modern Hand Reading paradigm & you can use this forum as your palm reading guide!

COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals

Post  Christopher Jones on Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:29 pm

Patti wrote:A year or so ago Martijn found a web site that had animated displays showing computer generated fingerprint development based on mathematical calculations. They felt they had proven something by showing the most elevated surface tension created whorls. Yet in the end, if I recall correctly, they could not create a double loop pattern using this procedure!

Well, there you go, my point exactly!

Scientists so very often start with a theory and then try and explain (or fit) all the facts according to that theory - which is just not being very scientific. As you rightly point out, the study of fingerprints came out of the study of Eugenics - which was a highly respecatable science in the late C19th. Francis Galton, being a cousin of Darwin, was merely applying the Theory of Evolution to human beings and, in fingerprints, he thought had had found the perfect measure. Galton established the Galton Laboratory for Eugenics (a term he himself coined in 1883), at the University of London in 1895, a post that was later held by LS Penrose.

Once you have the weight of that theoretical nonsense behind fingerprints, what scientist is not going to bend to it and not assess fingerprints in terms of 'evolution' and 'degeneration'. Any scientific dermatoglyphicist who even mentions these terms in an uncritical manner needs to be looked at very suspiciously. If they can't see past that, then there is a blinkering on in theri mind which will prevent them from seeing all sorts of other things.

Just because they are scientists does not mean we should take them seriously !

Christopher Jones

Posts : 48
Join date : 2012-01-16

Back to top Go down

Re: COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals

Post  Patti on Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:18 pm


Yes exactly!! And they didn't even mention their progress relating to another article a couple of years ago: "Nobel prize winner Paul Crutzen has recently advocated injecting artificially large quantities of sulphur dioxide into Earth's atmosphere at around 20 km to counteract the global warming resulting from increased greenhouse gases." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/101130122035.htm

(sorry - brief off topic break - lol! )

avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals

Post  anand_palm on Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:17 am

Hello Patti

Can you please explain this sense of touch and raised pads. Lot of times in fingertips you would see a slight bulge at the fingertip, is that raised pads or somethingh do with touch. Also the core of the print forms at lower side, higher side, medium is that somethingh to go to do for touch.

I was reading wolfe book but she mentions somethingh in her study but could not understand it. She mention somebody by name carus who did some study on it.

Regarding double loop working model wherein they could not fit in category of whorls, does that imply double loop does not fit in certain criteria which they have used to fill up for whorl, what about other whorl patterns.


Thanks
Anand
avatar
anand_palm

Posts : 393
Join date : 2010-11-19

Back to top Go down

Re: COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals

Post  zaobhand on Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:06 am

I am a scientist by training and also don't buy into the theory of evolution. Aspects of it work only in some ways.
avatar
zaobhand

Posts : 751
Join date : 2010-08-10

Back to top Go down

Re: COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals

Post  zaobhand on Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:42 am

Hi Patti,

Humans are destructive to the environment in many ways, but I don't believe they have any influence on global warming. The "global warming" effect has been serving as an agenda for people who care for the environment (which may not be so bad) or people who oppose anything modern, and mainly to support an army of "global warming" scientists. I believe that cycles of warming and cooling have been occurring regularly through eons, and are mostly influenced by cosmic effects such as the environment (space) through which the solar system is passing through. There are good articles that support this idea. And, yes we are off-topic but it is relevant for understanding the "scientific" point of view with respect to dermatoglyphics.
avatar
zaobhand

Posts : 751
Join date : 2010-08-10

Back to top Go down

Re: COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals

Post  Patti on Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:36 pm

( Hi Zoab, I think there is a whole lot of geoengineering going on putting particles high up in the atmosphere )
avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals

Post  zaobhand on Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:41 pm

(Maybe Patti, The data in the article I've referred to has been collected over many years).
avatar
zaobhand

Posts : 751
Join date : 2010-08-10

Back to top Go down

Re: COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals

Post  Patti on Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:48 pm

anand_palm wrote:Hello Patti

Can you please explain this sense of touch and raised pads. Lot of times in fingertips you would see a slight bulge at the fingertip, is that raised pads or somethingh do with touch. Also the core of the print forms at lower side, higher side, medium is that somethingh to go to do for touch.

I was reading wolfe book but she mentions somethingh in her study but could not understand it. She mention somebody by name carus who did some study on it.

Regarding double loop working model wherein they could not fit in category of whorls, does that imply double loop does not fit in certain criteria which they have used to fill up for whorl, what about other whorl patterns.


Thanks
Anand

The raised pads that are being discussed here relate to prenatal volar pads that become enlarged usually at the same time the ridges begin to appear. The patterns form as they change from fully enlarged to deflated and flat. Full usually means a whorl and flat often results in an arch. On many mammals, these volar pads are walking pads and the most raised pads tend to result in whorls.

The sensitivity pads, little peaks on the finger tips and other places in the palms, may or may not relate to the volar pads. They may be left over or they may be a thing of their own. They tend to have a heightened sensitivity to touch.

Charlotte Wolff described them as having a physical effect to the emotions. Like blushing when embarrassed. She refers to Carl Gustav Carus on page 10 of The Human Hand and he strongly felt the fingers were related to the conscious mind and the palm to the subconscious. She says he is the first to classify hands.

Sorry, but I don't understand your last paragraph. scratch

sunny
avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals

Post  anand_palm on Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:12 pm

Hello Patti

Thanks for your reply, i guess i did not write the last para correctly. What i meant there was the research paper might not have considered the missing factors when modelling for whorls. Like modeling of whorls should ensure all families of whorl generated when modeled. It looks like some parameter is misssing may be the model might have only taken volar pad factor and missed out somethingh else. The other thingh did the model generate all other families of whorl.

I got the difference between senstive pads and volar pads, the meaning of touch from a psychological sense. Thumb up

happy move

Thanks
Anand study Sleep
avatar
anand_palm

Posts : 393
Join date : 2010-11-19

Back to top Go down

Re: COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals

Post  Patti on Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:06 pm

anand_palm wrote:Hello Patti

Thanks for your reply, i guess i did not write the last para correctly. What i meant there was the research paper might not have considered the missing factors when modelling for whorls. Like modeling of whorls should ensure all families of whorl generated when modeled. It looks like some parameter is misssing may be the model might have only taken volar pad factor and missed out somethingh else. The other thingh did the model generate all other families of whorl.

I got the difference between senstive pads and volar pads, the meaning of touch from a psychological sense. Thumb up

happy move

Thanks
Anand study Sleep

I think that the various researchers became aware of the multiple possibilities of patterns that can form and tried to simplify the charts and the FBI provided guidelines to follow.
avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals

Post  Patti on Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:29 pm

Christopher Jones wrote:Hi Patti,

Those fingerprints you got from Jenni's book are not Lateral Pocket loops; they are not lateral, ie coming in from the sides.

These are just double loops, plain and simple.

Hi Christopher,

If you trace the cores of the looping patterns you will see they enter from only one side or the other. Since they are opposite in nature, it is obvious that one is radial and the other ulnar.

Since you are saying that according to your way of labeling these, they are simply double loops, don't you think you are falling into the same group of people you are complaining about having reduced the categories too much?

avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals

Post  Christopher Jones on Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:01 pm

Patti wrote:
Hi Christopher,

If you trace the cores of the looping patterns you will see they enter from only one side or the other. Since they are opposite in nature, it is obvious that one is radial and the other ulnar.

Since you are saying that according to your way of labeling these, they are simply double loops, don't you think you are falling into the same group of people you are complaining about having reduced the categories too much?


Not at all. I'm with Purkinje, the original and best !

I understand what you are saying, but the term 'Lateral Pocket' was innovated by Scotland Yard forensic dermatoglyphgicists - possibly even Galton himself, I don't quite remember now - to describe a specific pattern where the loop entered directly from the side in an almost horizontal manner. The example you have given here is, therefore, most decidedly not a lateral pocket !

Christopher Jones

Posts : 48
Join date : 2012-01-16

Back to top Go down

Re: COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals

Post  Patti on Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:24 am

Hi Christopher,

Twin Loop and Lateral Pocket Loops originally appear to be 2 of the 4 subcategories of the Composites Category according to Cummins & Midlo (and as you say from Galton's class of whorls):

"Lateral Pocket Loops and Twin Loops are closely allied morphologically, either type being composed of two interlocked loops. The distinction between them is of importance in identification, but is ordinarily negligible in biological studies. They differ in respect to the coursing of ridges traced from the cores of the two loops. When lines traced from the two cores emerge on the same digital margin (radial or ulnar) the configuration is a lateral pocket loop, while if the two lines course to opposite margins it is a twin loop." - Finger Prints Palms & Soles page 63

In this close up from the illustration I uploaded earlier from Application and Methodological Perspectives in Dermatoglyphics, #33 and #34 are listed as Radial and Ulnar Lateral Pocket Loops. #'s 37-40 show Twin Loops. These are drawn as described above by Cummins & Midlo. What you describe as a Lateral Pocket Loop reminds me of #'s 15 and 16. These fit the Lateral Pocket Loop description, too, in my opinion.





#33 & 34 also match Jenni's as they also match Cummin's & Midlo's description for Lateral Pocket Loops.



You call them Double Loops which is a catch-all category by the FBI for a pattern with two separate loop formations, including two shoulders and two deltas and this apparently includes both the twin loops and lateral pocket loops.

Purkinje had an interesting way of describing a "double whorl" and this is Cummins & Kennedy's translation from Latin to English - "The double whorl, fig 15 [twin loop]. If a part of the transverse lines runs forward and is bent back upon itself half again as much, and another line embraces it similarly on the other side, thence two whorls are formed entwined on themselves."

My interpretation of this is that this twin pattern is formed by two loops entering from two different sides.

He describes another type of whorl which he calls compound (fig 12) and refers to a space "filled with a spiral line, either simple or compound, twisted on itself. The spiral is simple in the geometric sense of the word; I call it compound, because from the center many ramifications go out from the same point or intervals, and are twisted on themselves. From either side, where the spiral is contiguous to the departure of the straight lines or curves encircling it, two triangles arise. Such an oblique loop bears much to one side."


avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals

Post  Patti on Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:45 am

http://galton.org/

http://www.eugenicsarchive.org/eugenics/image_header.pl?id=2147&printable=1&detailed=0

Galton's fingerprint system:





The first 3 patterns in the 2nd row of Fig. 9 are drawn the same as Twin Loops with loops entering from opposite sides. The last pattern in the 2nd row and the first 3 in row 3 involve what Galton saw as a path running through from side to the other. This is shaded in gray. His eye didn't focus on the direction of incoming loops but instead this wave from one side to the other. If you look closely you can see that two are twins and two are laterals - ulnar and radial.


avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals

Post  anand_palm on Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:08 am

Patti

Some basics for my understanding, what category does this twin loop come under.

Thanks
Anand
avatar
anand_palm

Posts : 393
Join date : 2010-11-19

Back to top Go down

Re: COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals

Post  Patti on Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:28 pm

anand_palm wrote:Patti

Some basics for my understanding, what category does this twin loop come under.

Thanks
Anand

scratch Which system?
avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals

Post  anand_palm on Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:31 pm

IS it a whorl system or a loop system.
avatar
anand_palm

Posts : 393
Join date : 2010-11-19

Back to top Go down

Re: COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals

Post  Patti on Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:50 pm

anand_palm wrote:IS it a whorl system or a loop system.

In Cummins & Midlo's and the FBI's system it is a subcategory of the whorls.

Christopher said the element system places it in under water along with the loops.

Other researchers in the past have placed the twin loops and lateral pocket loops as loops in their systems.

There is no absolute answer - there are only systems with catgories and rules set up by various people over time with opinions.

Maybe the solution is closer to the 9 possibilities sketched out by Galton in the charts above. Galton apparently created a system based on the top and bottom type lines traced from the triradii. W and V were later replaced by radial and ulnar. He looked to see if the top type line went to the ulnar or radial sides or both and then did the same with the bottom type line. He saw the pattern area as an interspace where two ridges on one or both sides parted ways to allow room. Where the ridges entered and were allowed to leave, by the situations of W and V, forced various patterns to form. Fascinating system! I wonder why it was abandoned. The links to the charts, articles and documents about Galton in my posts above are worth spending the time studying.

avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals

Post  Patti on Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:28 pm

If anyone is following this discussion in any kind of meaningful way, there is a fascinating discovery here!

Galton points out that there are 9 possible formations for the ridges that can be traced from what later becomes known as the triradius. He's aware that in development the triradii form last. I came across this in one of the papers at the links I shared.

Cummins & Midlo and others have illustrated that the ridges initially form a few rows laterally and apically at the nail bed, plus horizontally from the distal interphalangeal crease, and then the core or center forms. These sides come in to meet the core. The interesting thing here is that the core forms before the triradius and that no matter what forms at the core it can only wind itself in the space that relates to the yet to be created triradius and that is limited to mainly 9 possibilities shown by Galton. So, since these patterns are forming in the style of fields closing in to a central preformed core, it can impress the mind a little with the magical geometry of it all! Maybe more of a vibrational imprint than a pattern formed only at the mercy of it's surface.
avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals

Post  Lynn on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:03 pm

Patti that info about the order in which the patterns form is fascinating!

___________________________________________
Lynn
www.handanalysis.co.uk
avatar
Lynn

Posts : 2408
Join date : 2010-07-24
Location : Devon, England

http://www.handanalysis.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:38 pm

Lynn wrote:Patti that info about the order in which the patterns form is fascinating!

Hello Lynn & Patti,

While reading Patti's last comment I remember seeing various pictures presented by various sources (including some gif animations which were presented at Sue's forum a few years ago - just found the ones presented at the bottom of this post) which show the order how the ridges manifest/develop from the center to the outer sides + from the outer sides to the center, finalized the with formation of the triradii.

Do you remember those/likewise pictures as well?

(Patti, I am not sure that I understand your 'discovery', are you suggesting that Galton's classification provides clues which are helpfull to understand the development order in the ridges?)


wave


PS. Reminds me of one of the early topics that I created at this forum almost one year ago (which includes the pictures below):
http://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t736-the-triradius-in-a-fingerprint-how-it-develops-it-s-characteristics-a-definition



___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
avatar
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5208
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

Re: COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals

Post  Lynn on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:56 pm

ah yes I remember the animations Martijn. Thumbs up! I'd forgotten the way it forms, with triradius forming last of all.

(btw your link to article by Babler http://www.forensicitc.com/critical_stage_of_friction_ridge.htm on that triradius thread, no longer works )

___________________________________________
Lynn
www.handanalysis.co.uk
avatar
Lynn

Posts : 2408
Join date : 2010-07-24
Location : Devon, England

http://www.handanalysis.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:22 pm

Lynn wrote:ah yes I remember the animations Martijn. Thumbs up! I'd forgotten the way it forms, with triradius forming last of all.

(btw your link to article by Babler http://www.forensicitc.com/critical_stage_of_friction_ridge.htm on that triradius thread, no longer works )

Thanks Lynn,

(Not sure what materials were exactly presented at the website that no longer works)

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
avatar
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5208
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

Re: COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals

Post  Patti on Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:58 pm

Yes, thanks Martijn for adding the gifs. I remembered them, but didn't recall where they were posted.

Cummins & Midlo page 181 state "From these foci ridge differentiation extends progressively until systems meet. Less frequently, differentiation may be completed by extension from a single focus centered on the finger ball.

The animated illustration basically works for a whorl and doesn't consider the mechanisms involved in other patterns.

It might be too abstract to try to explain myself.

If you study the 9 outlines in figure 7 you can see that by drawing the outlines of a form of 'type line' there is what Galton calls an interspace that becomes the pattern area. This interspace is caused by the opening of two parallel horizontal ridges. He calls these openings V and W. (this is explained in full detail in his article at the links)

A whorl pattern, for example, is forced to form when both sides, W & V, meet as seen in Example I.

If the core is forming before the triradii, the concept of the W & V sides being opened, closed, distally open, proximally open, plus radial and ulnar, means that the process of what is happening as the lateral, distal and proximal early ridge rows build inwards have to relate to the core.

Notice in examples II and III there is a possibility of ridges flowing in one side curving around and flowing out the other. In the examples in Fig 9, these are the double loop patterns. If the pattern is developing inwards from all sides and outwardly from the center then the core of II and III must react to the 'type lines'. There would have to be some circuit from outside ulnar to outside radial from within the pattern.

Now, since the core is where the pattern first begins to develop and this begins very early then what (genetically / topographically) starts here must merge with what's incoming. So, if an island forms with a concentric circle around it as the core, the other ridges will have to spiral around it. If that island is a tiny S shape, it could turn into a double loop and on and on.

Maybe following that line of thinking, a tented arch could be formed when a vertical ridge forms as a core but the ridges coming in from the sides remain horizontal, do not part ways at W & V and sort of collapse against the core.

Like I said....abstract.

Galton said he was expounding on Purkinje's ideas when he developed this system.
avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals

Post  Christopher Jones on Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:54 pm

Patti - how do they describe that process then for a simple arch which has no core??

Christopher Jones

Posts : 48
Join date : 2012-01-16

Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum