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Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:30 am

Lynn wrote:...
I'm not exactly sure I understand about "I don't like the idea at all that the length of a line... can become decisive regarding how to name another line." but we have eg long headline = sydney line. If fate line takes over from lifeline, we are not renaming it as lifeline. (or have I misunderstood about changing the name of a line? - sorry I need to go back and re-read some of this long topic! it's late here & my brain is not too awake! zzzzz)
In my origjnal studies with Cheirological Society, lifeline is the earth line, fate line was minor earth line. Not sure if that classes as 'accessory' crease? but thanks for agreeing that it sure backs up the lifeline in some cases Wink

Hi Lynn,

Sorry, you misunderstood my words regarding two important aspects:

Misunderstanding1) Your example of the Sydney line does not serve as a likewise example to what I described - please notice: I literally talked about 2 lines(!):

"I don't like the idea at all that the length of a line... can become decisive regarding how to name another line."

And in your example of the Sydney line you refer to only one single line: the head line only... so in your example only the characteristics of the (head) line itself that is decisive for how to name the line (long head line or Sydney line).

While my words clearly refer to one line and another line - and obviously this directly relates to the issue that we are talking about!

My problem here is that Patti is proposing that the length of the life line is decisive for how to name ANOTHER LINE:.... 'fate line'? Or 'second part of life line'?

But I think there really is no other example in the field of hand reading (nor in the scientific writings) at all that could support this idea.

(I hope this now makes sense - after I described why your Sydney line example does serve as a likewise example at all)


Misunderstanding 2) Where I used the word 'accessory crease'... I was only referring to the 'accessory crease' (or 'second' crease) as described in the Korean article about the Suwon crease - see figure 5 in the article describes:

"Accessory variant (C): III is accompanied by accessory palm creases which are parallel and more than half of the III length."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2998791/

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 5 Acb-43-169-g005


And the principle of the 'accessory crease' can not be applied to the issue that we are discussion here, simply because it is ONLY NATURAL that a small part of a fate line goes 'parallel' to the life line - as illustrated in this example below:

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 5 Image006

THE FOLLOWING CONSIDERATION IS ESSENTIAL IN MY APPROACH:

Of course, the hand-example above has a life line with normal length and a normal fate - travelling all the way up through the head line, etc.

However... what if the life line would have been short here?
Would it have made sense to re-name the fate line as a life line???

I think the answer is pretty obvious.... of course not - for, in this example it is very obvious that the central vertical line represents a fate line because it is clearly progressing through the head line!


A final consideration:

I think most examples that we have discussed in this topic indicate... that in far most cases where the life line short, the fate line tends to be short as well! Very Happy

However, I see no reason at all.... to re-name the fate line in such cases!

By principle, I would only be able to consider 'short central vertical lines' as a life line... if they shown the typical characteristics that can be associated with a typical life line. That is why I referred a few times to the fact that we are talking about an 'arbitrary issue' - where I think the PRINCIPLES of how the lines are defined... should become leading in borderline-cases. And therefore I felt not much need at all to start referring to scientific sources... but Patti made an explicit request for me to found my position with scientific materials - and so I did (successfully in my view).


Lynn, my description + (imaginary) considerations for this example above sort of summarize the rather simple principles that I have applied all the way through this topic:

So basically, I have only been judging every line by it's characteristics... simples!


Very Happy

___________________________________________
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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:08 am

Patti wrote:
Lynn wrote:Thanks Martijn, sorry I guess I skipped thru some parts of this discussion without reading every word. btw I am not too keen on Benham re lines (maybe because of his drawn lines), I think he is better at mounts.

I'm not exactly sure I understand about "I don't like the idea at all that the length of a line... can become decisive regarding how to name another line." but we have eg long headline = sydney line. If fate line takes over from lifeline, we are not renaming it as lifeline. (or have I misunderstood about changing the name of a line? - sorry I need to go back and re-read some of this long topic! it's late here & my brain is not too awake! zzzzz)
In my origjnal studies with Cheirological Society, lifeline is the earth line, fate line was minor earth line. Not sure if that classes as 'accessory' crease? but thanks for agreeing that it sure backs up the lifeline in some cases Wink

I like how the CS society made the fate line a minor form of the 'earth' line. It fits in with the idea of when the 'earth' line is weak, short, or missing, there is still another 'earth' line available. A back up life line.

I have said things in readings like "your fate line takes over for the life line" as well as "fate line becomes the life line at a certain point". Fairly interchangeably.

If the fate line were the type that rose from the outer corner or side of the percussion, I would not mention that the fate line becomes the life line. Instead I would see the person as living their life via fate line energy (if it happens they have a short life line - but I don't think I've ever seen a hand with a long mars line, or short life line where its only longitudinal crease rose from the hypothenar or lunar mount).

Unless there is a problem with the function of the thumb, I think there will be a crease that divides the hypothenar from the thenar.

Patti, your example regarding the consequences of the 'starting point' (outside in the mount of moon) of the fate line makes me wonder:

I assume that this also implicates that you would not speak of a 'life line' when the end point of the line is found above the head line?


PS. By the way, my question above has a rethoric nature:

Because for me your above example illustrates that your principles have an opportunistic nature... for, have we ever ever seen a definition suggestiing that for a fate line (or sagittal line) the starting point near the center of the wrist and an end point below the head line could become decisive for whether the line represents a fate line... or a life line?

(Sorry, I don't think I have ever seen such suggestions at all... until you shared your ideas in this topic!)


Very Happy

___________________________________________
sunny

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Post  Lynn on Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:25 pm

chakraborty wrote:Dear Lynn,

I know you (in forums only) for last 8+ years & have interacted many a times (under different User name) and respect your opinion. But sometimes I do differ with your interpretations.

Probably you have missed my earlier post on this topic. I had stated that I have seen people predict longevity quite accurately. The 'reading' appeared (to me) to be partly based on intuition. When I say 'partly' - it means that there is a logical part too. The logical part appeared to be based on a combination of length of Life line, Heart line and Fate line and may be some other factors. Obviously, any cut mark/dimming of line/marks etc. are to be considered - these may indicate a life threatening situation which may/may not be overcome.

I have seen these predictions few times being accurate. To me, this is possible.

regards

Chakraborty

Thanks Chakraborty,
re "I have seen people predict longevity quite accurately." - I am sure it is possible but does it work in every case? (I don't think so). I am interested to know, how old were the people when their long life was predicted and what age did they survive to? we might have to wait 50 years to find out if the prediction was true.

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Post  Lynn on Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:31 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:Hi Lynn,

Sorry, you misunderstood my words regarding two important aspects:

Misunderstanding1) Your example of the Sydney line does not serve as a likewise example to what I described - please notice: I literally talked about 2 lines(!):

"I don't like the idea at all that the length of a line... can become decisive regarding how to name another line."

Sorry, I was tired. I see how I completely misunderstood! What confused me was "I don't like the idea at all that the length of a line... can become decisive regarding how to name another line." I don't think anyone was re-naming lines, ie fate line becomes life line. (?) I thought they were saying the fate line can support, or compensate for, a weak/missing lifeline. Not that it then becomes renamed as the lifeline.

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Post  chakraborty on Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:57 pm

Dear Lynn,

I will answer in two parts :-

1)
As you can understand, this sort of question is NEVER asked...unless it has some great implication. I remember such a case when this question was asked. I am narrating this because I was present at the scene.

The couple were poor...and the mother of the man (approx 60+ yrs old) had suffered cerebral strokes. After few rounds of medical treatments, they were advised to take the patient to a big & modernized hospital. It was a costly proposition and the couple decided to sell all their belonging to foot the bill. Somehow, a relative of them, a palmist visited them on some job. They asked the palmist if he can foresee any improvement in near future (after the planned treatment). The palmist saw the hand of the patient and declared that she will succumb by 68 yrs+few months+/-few day roughly. Then he asked the man about the present age to which the boy replied as 66 yrs. Then the palmist went away.

The man (son of the patient) somehow was uneasy. He then cross-checked the natal horoscope of his mother and found that she is approx 67 yrs - approaching 68 very soon. Anyway, the man could not sell his land+home for some document issue. After few months, the patient died.

2. It is felt that hand features & destiny can be changed by own Karma. Hence, long-term prediction can not be made. When it comes to life expectancy, the standard reply is - " I feel there are some tough spots around these ages where some problems may come up". If the palmist is very sure about his findings and the problem is very near, he may likely confide to the persons close to the subject.

Somebody predicting for a person in 50 yrs in advance- that too in Palmistry !!! I don't think it is posible.

regards

Chakraborty



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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:29 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:Hi Lynn,

Sorry, you misunderstood my words regarding two important aspects:

Misunderstanding1) Your example of the Sydney line does not serve as a likewise example to what I described - please notice: I literally talked about 2 lines(!):

"I don't like the idea at all that the length of a line... can become decisive regarding how to name another line."

Sorry, I was tired. I see how I completely misunderstood! What confused me was "I don't like the idea at all that the length of a line... can become decisive regarding how to name another line." I don't think anyone was re-naming lines, ie fate line becomes life line. (?) I thought they were saying the fate line can support, or compensate for, a weak/missing lifeline. Not that it then becomes renamed as the lifeline.

Lynn, I hope you have noticed that I have pointed out by detail that the fate line in my aunt's hand qualifies for all typical characteristic of a fate line (for each of the 3 parts of that line!).

So, I have used the word 're-naming'... to point out that when the result of an assessment for a line creates a contradiction with the basic definition for that line, this can be recognized as an issue where the line is sort of get 're-named' (in this case by applying the basic definition for a life line and the definition for a fate line... in a rather creative/speculative/opportunistic manner!).

I think this is illustrated by Patti's picture of my aunt's hand... where I would say that the line which meets ALL typical characteristics of fate line is beiing described as a life line.

Does this now makes sense?


By the way... sorry, I am still note sure where your position in this discussion really is:

- Would you prefer to follow my assessment (I have described why I think the central line should best be described as a fate line)... in order to then speak of the process how a fate line can take over the function of the life line?

- Or would you prefer to follow Patti's assessment (she described why she thinks the central line should best best described as a life line)... which kind of implicates that the name of a line becomes a matter of a 'creative' mix of elements in the definition of the fate line and the life line; with the implication that it is that is no longer necessary to speak in terms of 'take over' because then the two different lines bare the same name.

- Or maybe... your position is somewhere in between???


wave

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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:48 pm

chakraborty wrote:Dear Lynn,

I will answer in two parts :-

1)
As you can understand, this sort of question is NEVER asked...unless it has some great implication. I remember such a case when this question was asked. I am narrating this because I was present at the scene.

The couple were poor...and the mother of the man (approx 60+ yrs old) had suffered cerebral strokes. After few rounds of medical treatments, they were advised to take the patient to a big & modernized hospital. It was a costly proposition and the couple decided to sell all their belonging to foot the bill. Somehow, a relative of them, a palmist visited them on some job. They asked the palmist if he can foresee any improvement in near future (after the planned treatment). The palmist saw the hand of the patient and declared that she will succumb by 68 yrs+few months+/-few day roughly. Then he asked the man about the present age to which the boy replied as 66 yrs. Then the palmist went away.

The man (son of the patient) somehow was uneasy. He then cross-checked the natal horoscope of his mother and found that she is approx 67 yrs - approaching 68 very soon. Anyway, the man could not sell his land+home for some document issue. After few months, the patient died.

2. It is felt that hand features & destiny can be changed by own Karma. Hence, long-term prediction can not be made. When it comes to life expectancy, the standard reply is - " I feel there are some tough spots around these ages where some problems may come up". If the palmist is very sure about his findings and the problem is very near, he may likely confide to the persons close to the subject.

Somebody predicting for a person in 50 yrs in advance- that too in Palmistry !!! I don't think it is posible.

regards

Chakraborty


Wow... !!!

Chakraborty, your examples are rather unvealing... because your words kind of suggest that the 'predictions' that got confirmed typically concern predictions where people die very shortly after the predictions was made (typically a matter months).

However, then the circumstances become essential... because when a person's death sentence kind of already has been made (due to for example a disease) then it becomes a matter where not much luck is needed to make a correction prediciton, etc.

Sorry, but I am not sure that I am willing to count such 'circumstantial based predictions' as providing ANY supportive evidence for the longevity-life line theory... because in such cases the odds are rather high that it was only coincidence that the moment of death overlapped the time-zone described in prediction.

If a person is expected to die pretty soon... then a time zone of one single specific month could in some cases even be described as not very specific at!


Your final perception that you think it is not possible to predict the age of death decades (50 years) in advance, because 'hand features' can be changed... this actually kind of support the view that the length of the life line does not represent the life span/age of death for the person.

So, predicting the moment of death then kind of only becomes a 'mind-game'... and not a serious 'science' as some of us here consider it to be at this forum!

( lol! )


Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 5 Ksmn1678l

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Post  Patti on Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:34 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn, I hope you have noticed that I have pointed out by detail that the fate line in my aunt's hand qualifies for all typical characteristic of a fate line (for each of the 3 parts of that line!).

The characteristics of a fate line range greatly. It's easy to fit the description of a fate line.
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Post  Lynn on Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:27 pm

chakraborty wrote:Dear Lynn,

I will answer in two parts :-

1)
As you can understand, this sort of question is NEVER asked...unless it has some great implication. I remember such a case when this question was asked. I am narrating this because I was present at the scene.

The couple were poor...and the mother of the man (approx 60+ yrs old) had suffered cerebral strokes. After few rounds of medical treatments, they were advised to take the patient to a big & modernized hospital. It was a costly proposition and the couple decided to sell all their belonging to foot the bill. Somehow, a relative of them, a palmist visited them on some job. They asked the palmist if he can foresee any improvement in near future (after the planned treatment). The palmist saw the hand of the patient and declared that she will succumb by 68 yrs+few months+/-few day roughly. Then he asked the man about the present age to which the boy replied as 66 yrs. Then the palmist went away.

The man (son of the patient) somehow was uneasy. He then cross-checked the natal horoscope of his mother and found that she is approx 67 yrs - approaching 68 very soon. Anyway, the man could not sell his land+home for some document issue. After few months, the patient died.

2. It is felt that hand features & destiny can be changed by own Karma. Hence, long-term prediction can not be made. When it comes to life expectancy, the standard reply is - " I feel there are some tough spots around these ages where some problems may come up". If the palmist is very sure about his findings and the problem is very near, he may likely confide to the persons close to the subject.

Somebody predicting for a person in 50 yrs in advance- that too in Palmistry !!! I don't think it is posible.

regards

Chakraborty

Thanks for this example Chakraborty. I am very amazed that the palmist accurately predicted "she will succumb by 68 yrs+few months+/-few day roughly." - I have no idea how they can be so specific to months/days. I wish my timing was as accurate in readings!

However this example has highlighted that I think we are talking about different things regarding being able to predict longevity - ie predicting life span of a person. Making a prediction for a seriously ill person who has already lived 66 years is very different from predicting life expectancy of a young, healthy person. Your last sentence seems to support what I previously said - that I don't think we can predict how long people will live, from lifeline or any other hand feature. For example if a life insurance company gave us a hand print of a 20 / 30 / 40 /50 year old and asked us 'what is the risk if we insure this person, how long will they live?', I don't think we would be able to tell them.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:39 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn, I hope you have noticed that I have pointed out by detail that the fate line in my aunt's hand qualifies for all typical characteristic of a fate line (for each of the 3 parts of that line!).

The characteristics of a fate line range greatly. It's easy to fit the description of a fate line.

Well yes Patti, the characteristics of a fate line vary. But I would say that it is pretty obvious that a true life line can not fit the description of a fate line... because otherwise the definitions for lines would present some 'overlap'; and I think this is never gets mentioned in the definitions for those lines.

(Of course, I am not denying here that there are 'borderline' cases - I have pointed out a few times that we are talking about an arbitrary issue)


So, yes... of course I can confirm that the characteristics of a fate line may vary within some range. Maybe our discussion implicates that we are confronted here with that most definitions do not describe that range by detail at all!?.



And I would like to introduce one more hand example... ( hand dance )

For, in the example below we can see in the right hand... that a short life line does not mean that the 'sagittal crease' should therefore be described as a 'life line'... because in this example I think it is obvous that the central vertical crease clearly fits for the typical LOCATION, PATH, DIRECTION & STRUCTURE of a fate line!

Patti, are you able to confirm for this example that we see a 'short life line' only... feature with a clear (normal) fate line only?


PS. Regarding the left hand in this person: it is also interesting to take a look at the left hand: the fate line is shorter there and it stops at the head line and pointing towards the zone between the middle finger and index finger... and I think it is obvious that there is no ground at all to associate that central line with a life line. So, the left hand provides here also no ground at all to question the observation that the right hand presents a short life line only!


Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 5 Dirk10

___________________________________________
sunny

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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  Lynn on Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:40 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn, I hope you have noticed that I have pointed out by detail that the fate line in my aunt's hand qualifies for all typical characteristic of a fate line (for each of the 3 parts of that line!).

So, I have used the word 're-naming'... to point out that when the result of an assessment for a line creates a contradiction with the basic definition for that line, this can be recognized as an issue where the line is sort of get 're-named' (in this case by applying the basic definition for a life line and the definition for a fate line... in a rather creative/speculative/opportunistic manner!).

I think this is illustrated by Patti's picture of my aunt's hand... where I would say that the line which meets ALL typical characteristics of fate line is beiing described as a life line.

Does this now makes sense?


By the way... sorry, I am still note sure where your position in this discussion really is:

- Would you prefer to follow my assessment (I have described why I think the central line should best be described as a fate line)... in order to then speak of the process how a fate line can take over the function of the life line?

- Or would you prefer to follow Patti's assessment (she described why she thinks the central line should best best described as a life line)... which kind of implicates that the name of a line becomes a matter of a 'creative' mix of elements in the definition of the fate line and the life line; with the implication that it is that is no longer necessary to speak in terms of 'take over' because then the two different lines bare the same name.

- Or maybe... your position is somewhere in between???


wave

I think I already said how I see it in my first post about your aunt's hand, which is similar to Pravin's view. Pravin said
What you consider as a short Life Line I have agreed to that description but what I wanted to add is that the headline cum fate line could also be treated as a second Life line cum Fate Line cum Head Line. In the beginning it acts as a Life Line cum Head Line and then later on as the line curves downwards or probably goes up from the wrist upto the place where it meets the head line it could be termed as Fate Line cum Life Line.
which seems to be the way Patti drew it on her diagram with aqua colour as lifeline, and brown as fate line. And at least the lower portion of fate line agrees with your assessment. I think I have got lost somewhere with regard to talk about re-naming lines.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:22 pm

Lynn wrote:
I think I already said how I see it in my first post about your aunt's hand, which is similar to Pravin's view. Pravin said
What you consider as a short Life Line I have agreed to that description but what I wanted to add is that the headline cum fate line could also be treated as a second Life line cum Fate Line cum Head Line. In the beginning it acts as a Life Line cum Head Line and then later on as the line curves downwards or probably goes up from the wrist upto the place where it meets the head line it could be termed as Fate Line cum Life Line.
which seems to be the way Patti drew it on her diagram with aqua colour as lifeline, and brown as fate line. And at least the lower portion of fate line agrees with your assessment. I think I have got lost somewhere with regard to talk about re-naming lines.

Thanks Lynn, but I am not sure how to read Pravin's words. Because if I focus on his first words (see the blue words above - which appear to describe how he 'names' the lines), then I am not only able to support those green words... I can also support his other words.

(By the way, I read Pravin's word 'cum' as 'combination')

And therefore I would say that Pravin's words do not reflect the colors in Patti's picture (regarding the 3th line part in her picture).

EDIT: Because pravin appears to be only 'treating' those line parts as a combination... but I think he does not NAME them as such



Finally, after 2 days of discussion...

I have taken another look at my aunt's hand print, and I discovered that I could even specify my position a little bit further.

Because while I have described that the central vertical line manifests in 3 parts in my first version of the picture... I would like to point out that based on the elements (LOCATIONS, PATH, DIRECTION and STRUCTURE) that I have mentioned, I could even point out that the 'curve' of the line parts suggest that we might even talk about 4 line parts: see the picture below!

And after considering the details again, I would say now that because of the 'curving away from the thenar' in the first 3 parts... in my perception only the 4th part presents an 'arbitrary' aspect - because that is the only part of which one can say that it kind of curves around the thenar.

Now, and if I take a look at the length of the 4th line part... it becomes more obvious that when this 'arbitrary' upper line would be taken as a 'another part of the life line', this part would not really make the 'short line' any longer!

On top of these observations... I think I can only add that the 'curving away' of the 3th line part is only very small... so that leaves in my approach a small 'arbitrary' issue, which I can accept anyone to reject.

Though formally this almost straight 3th line part does show a small curve that is more typical for a fate line than a life line... so I think this little detail does add some weight to my assessment to describe the full central vertical line - including all 4 line parts - as a fate!



Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 5 Short-10

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Post  Patti on Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:37 pm

In a chapter on using flexion creases for identification, David Ashbaugh in "Quantitative-Qualitative Friction Ridge Analysis" writes:

"Before palmar flexion creases can be used to individualize, an expert must have an understanding of the formation, uniqueness, and persistency of palmar flexion creases." (page 194-195).

On page 181 he writes "The paths of the thenar crease, distal transverse crease, and the finger crease are either channeled in narrow grooves between volar pads at the base of the fingers or are formed between volar pads and nonvolar pad skin. The thenar flexion crease develops with the appearance of the thenar pad and the first interdigital pad."

This last sentence fits completely with the quote from the orthopedic book I referred to last night. The thenar crease is influenced radially by the first interdigital pad and proximally by the thenar pad.

We know from Kimura that the thenar crease is the first crease to appear in the palm. It is very likely that this newly forming crease is based on a time that this 1st interdigital pad is still in development and the new line forms accordingly. Later when the head line forms and the area between the thenar and hypothenar is more developed, the longitudinal section of the life line forms. This can result in the proximal part of the thenar crease being wider spaced from the life line than the distal part of the thenar crease.

The result of this would be the various examples shared of 'short line lines with fate lines that appear to take over'.

This matches how the heart line initially appears between the middle and index fingers. Many times this line does not connect to the actual heart line. It then becomes a part of the Girdle of Venus, or an extension of the fate line, or just stands alone.

Ashbaugh describes the finger creases as developing from the fingers and moving downwards. (page 178) "Longitudinal or Finger Creases. The paths of these minor creases run longitudinally from the middle of the base of the fingers toward the center of the wrist."

In this regards, I would say that in cases where there is only one longitudinal crease, and that crease fits the description of dividing the thenar from the hypothenar eminence, then for medical, developmental and forensic purposes it would be the life line, a major crease.

Martijn, I think Ashbaugh pretty clearly supports that the longitudinal crease found between the thenar and hypothenar eminence is the thenar crease and not a finger crease or fate line as their beginnings are based on the finger and moving downward and not based on rising from the wrist.

It wouldn't be a renaming of the fate line as it would never really have been the fate line in the first place. This also fits nicely with the palmistry community's generally common view that the fate line takes over as an extension of the life line. In fact, palmistry already accounts for these new starts of lines that remain incomplete as part of the Girdle and as the Mars line.


cheers



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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:36 pm

Patti wrote:In a chapter on using flexion creases for identification, David Ashbaugh in "Quantitative-Qualitative Friction Ridge Analysis" writes:

"Before palmar flexion creases can be used to individualize, an expert must have an understanding of the formation, uniqueness, and persistency of palmar flexion creases." (page 194-195).

On page 181 he writes "The paths of the thenar crease, distal transverse crease, and the finger crease are either channeled in narrow grooves between volar pads at the base of the fingers or are formed between volar pads and nonvolar pad skin. The thenar flexion crease develops with the appearance of the thenar pad and the first interdigital pad."

This last sentence fits completely with the quote from the orthopedic book I referred to last night. The thenar crease is influenced radially by the first interdigital pad and proximally by the thenar pad.

Patti, I am not sure which quote you exactly have in mind... but I think it is obvious that the last sentence that you quote above basically only describe how the life line starts developing at the radial side of the palm (between the index finger and thumb).

So, I could say that this sentence supports my view as well... but I don't see what such a claim from my side would add to this discussion.

(Your words make me wonder about what you actually read in those words - again it only describes where the life line starts developing)


Patti wrote:...
Ashbaugh describes the finger creases as developing from the fingers and moving downwards. (page 178) "Longitudinal or Finger Creases. The paths of these minor creases run longitudinally from the middle of the base of the fingers toward the center of the wrist."

In this regards, I would say that in cases where there is only one longitudinal crease, and that crease fits the description of dividing the thenar from the hypothenar eminence, then for medical, developmental and forensic purposes it would be the life line, a major crease.

Patti, that quote basically only describe that the fate line, sun line and health line tend to run from below the fingers towards the center of the wrist.

It does not say anything about the variations in those lines at all... so I think you are reading things in Ashbaugh's words that are not really there.



Patti wrote:
Martijn, I think Ashbaugh pretty clearly supports that the longitudinal crease found between the thenar and hypothenar eminence is the thenar crease and not a finger crease or fate line as their beginnings are based on the finger and moving downward and not based on rising from the wrist.

Patti, I don't understand how Ashbaugh's definition for the longitudinal finger creases made you conclude that a 'longitudinal crease found between the thenar and hypothenar eminence' represents a thenar crease

(NOTICE: the Ashbough's thenar crease does not belong to his group of 'longitudinal finger creases' at all!).

Sorry, your claim sounds very confusing to me.



Patti wrote:
It wouldn't be a renaming of the fate line as it would never really have been the fate line in the first place. This also fits nicely with the palmistry community's generally common view that the fate line takes over as an extension of the life line.

Sorry Patti, I think we are kind of exploring uncharted area here - do you know any other palmistry authors that have actually shared their view regarding this matter?

I already pointed out to Benham's early consideration regarding this matter (his comments about his no.176 example), he clearly describes that in his view he considers the central vertical line example ending at the head lines as a fate line.

I know you have qualified his description as an 'opinion' only, but I think there is no 'general common view' regarding this issue so far at all.

Also, I observe that so far in any outspoken talk about 'fate line takes over as an extension of the life line' (including Benham's description and Pravin Kumar's description) the names of the lines fit with my 'definition' approach.


Patti wrote:
In fact, palmistry already accounts for these new starts of lines that remain incomplete as part of the Girdle and as the Mars line.

cheers

Patti, can you please explain your last sentence a bit more. It's hard for me to understand what you are trying to say there... confused

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Post  Patti on Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:24 pm

You may need to read the chapter yourself, hopefully you have the book. Ashbaugh defines in detail, and with illustrations, the Major Flexion Creases, Minor Flexion Creases and Secondary Creases. The Girdle of Venus is in the Minor Flexion Crease category as the "Accessory Distal Transverse Flexure Crease". (in an earlier comment you said equating the 'mars line' to an accessory crease was like calling the Girdle of Venus an Accessory Crease... well, actually, he does!)

By the way, I am so surprised that you keep falling back on a book written prior to 1900 by Benham. Robert Ashbaugh's book is from a century later, 1999, and is based on accumulated scientific research and data.

And in regards to the 'quote from yesterday' I should have pointed out to look at the quote I highlighted in the uploaded image from the orthopedic book. The upper thenar crease and the lower thenar crease develop based on local conditions. This can result in differences in their directions and they end up not lining up with each other. The upper crease would not continue strongly across the thenar muscles and the lower crease would be between the thenar and the hypothenar.

Your aunt's longitudinal crease looks like the life line and the fate line have merged and as I said earlier, the resulting crease is serving double duty. I think it is the thenar section of the life line (which contains some fate line features) that divides the thenar from the hypothenar eminences. Other than that I think it is unimportant to break down bits and pieces of the crease and decide which piece serves for which function - as they are conjoined. (This is the simian version of the life/fate line connection Wink It'd be like saying which stretch of the simian line relates to feeling and which relates to thinking or some such division)

I hope you can show me something stronger than Benham or an opinion to support your view if you think differently.


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Post  Patti on Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:37 pm

ps.
Can this fate line not fit the description for the thenar crease, should be the question. At all places it can easily fit the description for a life line. Now could a fate line that only appears above the head line aiming towards/from the fingers be a life line, no of course not. So bottom line, you aunt's line is located and contained in a location that is common for a life line. Trying to associate it's constitution still isn't important here, it is it's placement.

Just noticed the new example. I'd say the inner line is a short distal section, the longer middle crease serves double duty as both fate and life, and the crease farther away from the thenar eminence is a finger crease. I'd read all three pieces in combination. The middle line has a break away branch that continues to the fingers. The distal section of the life line has a break away section that proceeds toward the wrist. This middle crease serves the function of dividing the hypothenar from the thenar and acting as the solitary crease aiming to (or from) the carpals.
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Post  Parender on Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:49 pm


Hi Friends,

I think some will like to see Bulle Shah’s latest palm as how it looks like after three decades, so here it is:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/72696129@N06/

I know and can tell you almost all major and minor events/things about him if you would like to know to understand the life line or fate line.

At the age of 32 when I took the print he was very much desperate and even wanted to end his life or go to one particular religious place in Himalayas never to return. He did not do that following my advice. He struggled and seen ups and downs.He started a new business at the age of 36 to fail ultimately. He was again in severe difficulties at the age of 53. But, since then everything turned up in his favor.

I thought the longer line is the directional longitudinal transverse much related to ‘luck’ or ‘destiny’ which starts from the base of the palm thicker and deep. Here, the fate line stops at Head Line so it cannot be a good Fate Line at this stage in his life shows that he was gradually losing interest or getting bored in his father’s business, perhaps a miscalculation done by him. He wanted to indulge in his field of interest of a healer. So, he could not get through the world comfortably and successfully then. But, all wells that ends well.
I am telling this because in general, the formation of Fate Line indicates the degree of individual satisfaction with the living conditions. Yes, both in the material and in the more personal and emotional sense.

There are many points from which the Line of Fate may commence. The Fate Line may rise from the base of the palm, from the Life Line, wrist, Mount of Moon, Line of Head, Line of Heart, in the middle of the palm or from inside of the Life Line. Life line here is taking so much area around not only completely encircling the full of Venus but reaching out to the Mount of Moon under the ring finger! This is hard to believe.

It will be not exaggerate to tell that this was to be a line of capability (Apollo Line). Due to not favorable circumstances he was compelled to live a much compromised life, surrendering his strong wishes to be a healer that is he is now.

The small line near the wrist on the lower part of Venus is the influence line is not a Fate Line and it shows the person who influenced his career, created the difficulties or barriers for him to be met with in one's aim and so forth. Thanks.

Parender



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Post  Patti on Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:29 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:


Finally, after 2 days of discussion...

I have taken another look at my aunt's hand print, and I discovered that I could even specify my position a little bit further.

Because while I have described that the central vertical line manifests in 3 parts in my first version of the picture... I would like to point out that based on the elements (LOCATIONS, PATH, DIRECTION and STRUCTURE) that I have mentioned, I could even point out that the 'curve' of the line parts suggest that we might even talk about 4 line parts: see the picture below!

And after considering the details again, I would say now that because of the 'curving away from the thenar' in the first 3 parts... in my perception only the 4th part presents an 'arbitrary' aspect - because that is the only part of which one can say that it kind of curves around the thenar.

Now, and if I take a look at the length of the 4th line part... it becomes more obvious that when this 'arbitrary' upper line would be taken as a 'another part of the life line', this part would not really make the 'short line' any longer!

On top of these observations... I think I can only add that the 'curving away' of the 3th line part is only very small... so that leaves in my approach a small 'arbitrary' issue, which I can accept anyone to reject.

Though formally this almost straight 3th line part does show a small curve that is more typical for a fate line than a life line... so I think this little detail does add some weight to my assessment to describe the full central vertical line - including all 4 line parts - as a fate!



Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 5 Short-10

The life line frequently pulls inward toward the thumb and back outward away from the thumb throughout its course. It also breaks and branches... as does your aunt's crease.

The description fits either a fate line or a life line.
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Post  Patti on Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:51 pm

Parender wrote:

Hi Friends,

I think some will like to see Bulle Shah’s latest palm as how it looks like after three decades, so here it is:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/72696129@N06/

I know and can tell you almost all major and minor events/things about him if you would like to know to understand the life line or fate line.

At the age of 32 when I took the print he was very much desperate and even wanted to end his life or go to one particular religious place in Himalayas never to return. He did not do that following my advice. He struggled and seen ups and downs. He was again in severe difficulties at the age of 53. But, since then everything turned up in his favor.

I thought the longer line is the directional longitudinal transverse much related to ‘luck’ or ‘destiny’ which starts from the base of the palm thicker and deep. Here, the fate line stops at Head Line so it cannot be a good Fate Line at this stage in his life shows that he was gradually losing interest or getting bored in his father’s business, perhaps a miscalculation done by him. He wanted to indulge in his field of interest of a healer. So, he could not get through the world comfortably and successfully then. But, all wells that ends well.
I am telling this because in general, the formation of Fate Line indicates the degree of individual satisfaction with the living conditions. Yes, both in the material and in the more personal and emotional sense.

There are many points from which the Line of Fate may commence. The Fate Line may rise from the base of the palm, from the Life Line, wrist, Mount of Moon, Line of Head, Line of Heart, in the middle of the palm or from inside of the Life Line. Life line here is taking so much area around not only completely encircling the full of Venus but reaching out to the Mount of Moon under the ring finger! This is hard to believe.

It will be not exaggerate to tell that this was to be a line of capability (Apollo Line). Due to not favorable circumstances he was compelled to live a much compromised life, surrendering his strong wishes to be a healer that is he is now.

The small line near the wrist on the lower part of Venus is the influence line is not a Fate Line and it shows the person who influenced his career, created the difficulties or barriers for him to be met with in one's aim and so forth. Thanks.

Parender


Hi Parender,
Thank you for sharing!! Thanks!
Here is how I would describe the lines.
Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 5 Parend10

I would read both lines together as relating to life line.

The purple arrows show where I see (reading down on both lines) the inner life line no longer curves outward. It weakens and becomes straighter. The outer line becomes stronger in appearance and begins to mark itself where the purple arrow points.

The gray lines are 'bridges' connecting the two creases and their energy. The lower one is near the time he connected with you. Perhaps you are part of that bridge helping him to the stronger life line and off the weaker one that had no energy to live left.

The pink arrows mark times where the inner life line has thinned out to almost nothing and the outer line begins to become stronger in appearance.

Stress markings appear on both lines between the purple arrows and the pink arrows. Above the purple arrows the inner line is marked and below the pink arrows the outer line is marked.

I see the fate line as beginning above the head line and rising from there. Its growth from there and that general time period matches his efforts to not just fade away like his inner life line's path was taking him down.

The outer line represents a more extroverted nature and that could be part of the reasoning for its energy to feel like a fate line instead. The life's direction is more influenced by outer things rather than retreating into an inner world.

The green lines show the path of the t triradius. Both longitudinal lines are within thenar boundaries in regards to dermatoglyphics. The upper green arrow points out where the t main line rising upward from the triradius cuts through the rising outer crease and moves radially. This is where this line breaks or seriously thins out.

I think we are looking at double life lines.

Thanks!



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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:20 pm

Patti wrote:You may need to read the chapter yourself, hopefully you have the book. Ashbaugh defines in detail, and with illustrations, the Major Flexion Creases, Minor Flexion Creases and Secondary Creases. The Girdle of Venus is in the Minor Flexion Crease category as the "Accessory Distal Transverse Flexure Crease". (in an earlier comment you said equating the 'mars line' to an accessory crease was like calling the Girdle of Venus an Accessory Crease... well, actually, he does!)

By the way, I am so surprised that you keep falling back on a book written prior to 1900 by Benham. Robert Ashbaugh's book is from a century later, 1999, and is based on accumulated scientific research and data.

And in regards to the 'quote from yesterday' I should have pointed out to look at the quote I highlighted in the uploaded image from the orthopedic book. The upper thenar crease and the lower thenar crease develop based on local conditions. This can result in differences in their directions and they end up not lining up with each other. The upper crease would not continue strongly across the thenar muscles and the lower crease would be between the thenar and the hypothenar.

Your aunt's longitudinal crease looks like the life line and the fate line have merged and as I said earlier, the resulting crease is serving double duty. I think it is the thenar section of the life line (which contains some fate line features) that divides the thenar from the hypothenar eminences. Other than that I think it is unimportant to break down bits and pieces of the crease and decide which piece serves for which function - as they are conjoined. (This is the simian version of the life/fate line connection Wink It'd be like saying which stretch of line relates to feeling and which relates to thinking or some such division)

I hope you can show me something stronger than Benham or an opinion to support your view if you think differently.


Patti, I am not 'falling back' on Benham's work. I have only referred to it because it presents a visual example which only indicates that my position is at least supported by his work... after you asked me to present references supporting my view.

By the way, I have found an example in Tre McCamley's work 'Palm Decoder' - see example 2.5 describing a short life line + fate line (sorry, I only have the Dutch version).

Magda van Dijk speaks in her book 'Universele Handleeskunde' (Dutch title, page 164) about a short life line. She described e.g. the combination of a short life line + a long fate line... but she does not mention anything about lines 'taking over' nor something likewise at all.

And I noticed that Cheiro also does not talk about lines taking over either; he only describes:

"The shorter the line the shorter the life."


This makes 4 respected authors which present materials that kind of are in line with my position.


By the way Patti, I find your use of 'vocabulary' rather suggestive:

Because I notice that you now even talk about an 'upper thenar crease' and a 'lower thenar crease'... while all scientific definitions that you referred to do not present such descriptions all - because none of the definitions that you have presented to far suggests explicit that a thenar crease tends to develop as 2 parts (such a process-in-2-steps is as far as I know only know to be seen in the development of the distal transverse crease).


By fact, we know the prenatal studies have described that the thenar crease develops from the radial side of the 1st interdigital zone with a curve around the thenar to the wrist.

But I don't think that there is a likewise process known for the thenar crease (life line) as seen as described for the distal transverse crease (heart line) - for the distal transverse crease various sources described that it starts developing first as a line starting in the 2nd interdigital zone, then some time later another line starts developing below the 4th finger, and finally those 2 crease usually make a connection.

(Sorry, I am not aware of any source describing a likewise process for the thenar crease. So, if you have ever seen any materials describing a likewise process for the thenar crease... you are welcome to share those materials - but the defintions that you have presented so far do not describe - nor suggest - that a likewise process is seen in the thenar crease)


By the way, I think you are also kind of creating your own vocabulary because I found that the terminology 'upper thenar crease' and 'lower thenar crease' appear only to have been used in this report only (where those words refer to creases at the thumb only, not the thenar!):
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA336094

(But the use of those words in the perspective of this discussion doesn't make sense to me at all all... since none of the definitions that you have presented describes any evidence that the thenar creases tends to manifest as two crease - like you suggested by the use of those two examples of terminology)


PS. Meanwhile you appear to claim that others - you even referred to the palmistry community's generally common view without specifying that at all - are using your approach, but I think I have not seen any explicit reference to hand reading books in your posts which present explicit support for your approach.

So it's kind of provocative to see you challenging me to find more examples in the hand reading literature that support my position... while you have not managed to present a single example in the hand reading literature that explicit presents support for your position.

(Sorry, I think so far you only presented a few quotes from the scientific literature - without explaining thoroughly how those quotes actually support your position)


PS. Patti, I have also the impression... that it appears to have slipped your mind that Parender also presented materials featured with comments that kind of confirm my position.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:40 pm

Patti wrote:
The life line frequently pulls inward toward the thumb and back outward away from the thumb throughout its course. It also breaks and branches... as does your aunt's crease.

The description fits either a fate line or a life line.

Patti, sounds like you are suggesting that all characteristics seen in my aunt's fate line are only natural for a life line to have.

And implicit you are kind of denying here that it is actually much more normal for a fate line to have so many 'outward curving' characteristics - than for a life line.


Apparently somehow you prefer not to post any detailed description for my aunt's hand; which I recognize as a huge handicap to find any agreement at all between our view... because it was actually this example that made us start this discussion.

Patti, would you mind to comment with on this new example of a 'short life line' that I presented earlier today - how would your prefer to describe it: just a short life line... or would you prefer to describe the central vertical line also as a life line?

(EDIT: Sorry Patti, I hadn't noticed that you already posted a few thoughts in an earlier comment)


Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 5 Dirk10


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:30 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 5 Empty Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:52 pm

Patti wrote:
Your aunt's longitudinal crease looks like the life line and the fate line have merged and as I said earlier, the resulting crease is serving double duty. I think it is the thenar section of the life line (which contains some fate line features) that divides the thenar from the hypothenar eminences. Other than that I think it is unimportant to break down bits and pieces of the crease and decide which piece serves for which function - as they are conjoined. (This is the simian version of the life/fate line connection Wink It'd be like saying which stretch of the simian line relates to feeling and which relates to thinking or some such division)

Patti, I am puzzled about why you think that '... it is unimportant to break down bits and pieces of the crease...'.

Because, regarding the option of a 'fusion' of lines... that requires an analysis of the details!

And in response to the options of a 'fusion', I would like to make a new observation here:

Because we can actually see that the lower two parts of the fate line are actually 'splitting' upwards. And this does not look like an upward branch growing from the life line at all - which by principle can never be described as a true 'splitting'.

And finally, also, I can not find a single feature in the 3rd and 4th line part which suggests that any part of those lines is progressing there downward. While the wider structure of the 3rd line part (compared to the 4th line part) suggests that the line is progressing upwards!!


Hopeless It's hard for me to understand why you show so much persistence in avoiding to discuss the details seen in the various examples that have been presented in this topic.

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Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 5 Empty Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:08 pm

Patti wrote:ps.
Can this fate line not fit the description for the thenar crease, should be the question. At all places it can easily fit the description for a life line. Now could a fate line that only appears above the head line aiming towards/from the fingers be a life line, no of course not.

Okay, that makes sense to me. Thumbs up!

Patti wrote:So bottom line, you aunt's line is located and contained in a location that is common for a life line. Trying to associate it's constitution still isn't important here, it is it's placement.

Patti... Oh...nooo! ... I can not believe you're suggesting that 'placement' is the single most important factor. This almost looks like a beginners-mistake, for you are ignoring the fact that the 'sagittal' line is the only line of which the full LOCATION relates to the mid-axis of the palm.


Patti wrote:
Just noticed the new example. I'd say the inner line is a short distal section, the longer middle crease serves double duty as both fate and life, and the crease farther away from the thenar eminence is a finger crease. I'd read all three pieces in combination. The middle line has a break away branch that continues to the fingers. The distal section of the life line has a break away section that proceeds toward the wrist. This middle crease serves the function of dividing the hypothenar from the thenar and acting as the solitary crease aiming to (or from) the carpals.

confused ... Wait a minute, I think in your first post you kind of described in your comment (which I liked very much), that if in my aunt's hand the fate line would have clearly progressed through the head line then it could no longer serve as a life line.

But now you are saying for my new example that it doesn't bother you at all to describe it as a combi of fate- and life line... even while it clearly progresses through the head line?

Did I misunderstood your first comment?

(Were you talking about a fate line example that only becomes manifest above the head line and not below the head line at all... ???)


No

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Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 5 Empty Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  Patti on Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:24 pm

Perhaps the pain of pulling your hair is blinding you to the fact that I have already answered and addressed many of the things you raised in your last couple of posts.

Quickly, I'll point out that Ashbaugh shows the upper thenar or mars mount to be the 1st interdigital area. He said and I already quoted this: "The thenar flexion crease develops with the appearance of the thenar pad and the first interdigital pad."

The timing of the appearance of these two pads is not mentioned here, but Kimura places them both developing from 8 through 13/14 weeks. 13/14 weeks is the beginning of the appearance of the head line.

This image for a book copied from Google books - credits are in the image and earlier quote, states that the upper part of the thenar crease is influenced by the interdigital pad and the other lower part is influenced by the thenar pad.

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 5 Thenar13

I commented on your aunt's palm when I first posted. I think both lines relate to the life line and the longitudinal line serves double duty. The life line is more likely to show changes as the tension between the thumb the thenar crease and fingers, is stronger than any tension affecting the hypothenar area.

None of the palmistry authors contradict anything I have said either. Neutral information.
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Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 5 Empty Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  Patti on Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:28 pm

If you are equating the life line to the thenar crease then placement is of utmost importance. You need to prove that your aunt's line does "not" qualify as a life line. You cannot as it fits a description for a life line.
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