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Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

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Post  Patti on Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:12 pm

I have long observed the parallel nature of creases and their association with each other. One of the medical descriptions of the creases included describing how creases line up in parallel sections illustrating a particular flexure movement or position of the hand. These relate to how the skin bunches up or flexes during this position.

If you study these green lines for a while, it appears they might be related to pinching items such as a pen or eating utencils. Regardless of what activity formed them, I think they relate to each other.
Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Dirk1011


In the image below, starting from the thumb side, typically most hands have some sort of rising 'ambition' line that rises toward the inside of the index finger. I have colored this influence line or section, yellow.

The green inner line is a short start of a life line, an inner life line or a Mars line.

Further out a short green line appears from the head line down to the long longitudinal crease. Following the flow of the line colored in green in my earlier images - the section I colored yellow/green/orange is most likely formed as part of this group. The spacing is right for a crease in the bunching of skin during flexure. It does not rise high enough to transform the rest of the crease below into a fate line. The rest is colored green for life line.

This green outer line forms the boundary between the thenar and hypothenar eminences.

The orange creases are fate line related. These particular ones I marked are concerned with the middle finger the most.
Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Dirk1012
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:27 pm

Patti wrote:If you are equating the life line to the thenar crease then placement is of utmost importance. You need to prove that your aunt's line does "not" qualify as a life line. You cannot as it fits a description for a life line.

Patti, regarding my aunt's example:

After I have already described in detail how the first three part of that line perfectly fit in the description of a fate line according LOCATION, PATH, DIRECTION; and these 3 parts do not show any characteristics that is very typical for a life line at all.

And the same is also kind of true for the 4th part - except that this part shows a small 'curving' outward which can be associated with a life line (but the LOCATION & DIRECTION can certainly not be associated with a typical life line).


Regarding your last few words:

"You cannot as it fits a description for a life line."

So far you refused to present a detailed analysis + an explanation of which details in the print are decisive for you to describe the line as a life line and not a fate line.

(In this post you only have described what would be required for you not call that line a life line: http://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t166p120-any-body-can-give-any-answer-for-this-length-life-line#22452)

Well, okay... you want some 'proof'?

No problem at all:

I could make the following statement:

Any normal life line will never end in a point at a (edit:) dissociated- or connected head line that is found at a location in a vertical plane positioned no more than about 1cm away from the vertical plane where triradius b is found (= the riradius below the middle finger)

Gna...gna

Patti, in my view you can simply 'proof' that my statement is not correct by finding a hand print example without a 'short life line variant' that shows the same characteristic for the life line.

Very Happy Now, after you asked for some 'proof'... I really hope that you will accept my challenge!

(Because otherwise you are kind of walking away from my 'proof' without any serious attempt to study it's significance)


PS. I assume the details about the vertical plains in that description make sense to you?
If not I will explain my definition for the life line with a picture!


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:51 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post  Lynn on Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:55 pm

Patti wrote:I think one needs to be associating the accumulated information, especially from the medical and forensic texts.

The fact that it forms in a depression while the rest of the thenar crease forms in the groove between the thenar and hypothenar eminence, muscles or pads, illustrate and support that these two crease do not always align. The short upper crease is only the initial start of the life line. The thenar crease is the crease that divides the thenar from the hypothenar eminence.

You'll find the Kimura also describe the thenar crease as rising from the wrist in "Embryologic Development of Flexion Creases". "The thenar crease is the curved crease encircling the thenar eminence. It begins in the proximal mid-palm somewhat above the distal wrist crease and ends on the radial side of the hand. It usually joins the proximal transverse crease near the radial border of the hand but sometimes it has a separate radial terminus, proximal of the proximal transverse crease." (page 115)
"Dermatoglyphics, Science in Transition" (Plato, etal 1991)

On page 120 Kimura refers to Kimura & Kitagawa, and Lacroix etal, as observing the thenar crease as developing radially. Kimura states regarding 8 weeks of gestations, "Thenar crease starts on the radial side between the thumb and index fingers." At 9 weeks "The thenar crease is clearly recognizable in the region between the distal and proximal components of interdigital pad I." At 18 weeks of gestation they describe how the flexion crease are formed as "grooves, or boundary lines, between pads or between pads or nonpad areas".

The thenar crease begins on the radial side and the section in mid palm is based on the groove between the thenar and the hypothenar eminence.

Hi Patti, I confess I am struggling to understand exactly what point you are making with the texts you've presented above and on previous pages. Many of the quotes just describe the position or course of the lifeline and other lines.

eg
"The thenar crease encloses the thenar eminence proximally and a shallow depression distally corresponding to the thenar space. The resistance in this depression is due to the adductor pollicis muscle."
It is just telling us the course of the lifeline from base of Venus mount up to Mars mount. What point were you making about it?

The fact that it forms in a depression while the rest of the thenar crease forms in the groove between the thenar and hypothenar eminence, muscles or pads, illustrate and support that these two crease do not always align.
I'm not sure what you mean by two creases? The thenar crease first begins to form from the top ie radial side between index finger and thumb (in the 'depression' which refers to location of Mars mount.) It then grows downwards towards the wrist (in the grooves).
what is the second crease you mention?
sorry, you've lost me! Can you explain again what point you're making in the above quotes, cos I seem to have missed it!?


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Post  Patti on Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:52 am

Lynn wrote:
Patti wrote:I think one needs to be associating the accumulated information, especially from the medical and forensic texts.

The fact that it forms in a depression while the rest of the thenar crease forms in the groove between the thenar and hypothenar eminence, muscles or pads, illustrate and support that these two crease do not always align. The short upper crease is only the initial start of the life line. The thenar crease is the crease that divides the thenar from the hypothenar eminence.

You'll find the Kimura also describe the thenar crease as rising from the wrist in "Embryologic Development of Flexion Creases". "The thenar crease is the curved crease encircling the thenar eminence. It begins in the proximal mid-palm somewhat above the distal wrist crease and ends on the radial side of the hand. It usually joins the proximal transverse crease near the radial border of the hand but sometimes it has a separate radial terminus, proximal of the proximal transverse crease." (page 115)
"Dermatoglyphics, Science in Transition" (Plato, etal 1991)

On page 120 Kimura refers to Kimura & Kitagawa, and Lacroix etal, as observing the thenar crease as developing radially. Kimura states regarding 8 weeks of gestations, "Thenar crease starts on the radial side between the thumb and index fingers." At 9 weeks "The thenar crease is clearly recognizable in the region between the distal and proximal components of interdigital pad I." At 18 weeks of gestation they describe how the flexion crease are formed as "grooves, or boundary lines, between pads or between pads or nonpad areas".

The thenar crease begins on the radial side and the section in mid palm is based on the groove between the thenar and the hypothenar eminence.

Hi Patti, I confess I am struggling to understand exactly what point you are making with the texts you've presented above and on previous pages. Many of the quotes just describe the position or course of the lifeline and other lines.

eg
"The thenar crease encloses the thenar eminence proximally and a shallow depression distally corresponding to the thenar space. The resistance in this depression is due to the adductor pollicis muscle."
It is just telling us the course of the lifeline from base of Venus mount up to Mars mount. What point were you making about it?

The fact that it forms in a depression while the rest of the thenar crease forms in the groove between the thenar and hypothenar eminence, muscles or pads, illustrate and support that these two crease do not always align.
I'm not sure what you mean by two creases? The thenar crease first begins to form from the top ie radial side between index finger and thumb (in the 'depression' which refers to location of Mars mount.) It then grows downwards towards the wrist (in the grooves).
what is the second crease you mention?
sorry, you've lost me! Can you explain again what point you're making in the above quotes, cos I seem to have missed it!?


The point I'm making (or trying to) is that each is based on different criteria in development. Each being the part of the thenar crease that forms in the interdigital space between the thumb and index, and the section of the thenar crease that forms in the boundaries between the thenar and the hypothenar pads.

The upper formation is based on the develop and condition of the interdigital pad (mars mount) and the rest of the thenar crease forms around the thenar pad (Venus) between the thenar and the hypothenar eminences. This latter is influenced by the condition and shape of the thenar pad.

These are the basic conditions the thenar crease forms under.

The middle finger crease (fate line) forms/develops under different circumstances than a thenar crease. It doesn't need to be in the groove between the thenar and hypothenar pads as it's a minor crease. If there's a crease that runs in this groove it is likely thenar crease related more so than middle finger crease related. I think the thenar crease is complete before the middle finger crease during development, particularly since it began forming weeks earlier.
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Post  Patti on Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:09 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:If you are equating the life line to the thenar crease then placement is of utmost importance. You need to prove that your aunt's line does "not" qualify as a life line. You cannot as it fits a description for a life line.

Patti, regarding my aunt's example:

After I have already described in detail how the first three part of that line perfectly fit in the description of a fate line according LOCATION, PATH, DIRECTION; and these 3 parts do not show any characteristics that is very typical for a life line at all.

And the same is also kind of true for the 4th part - except that this part shows a small 'curving' outward which can be associated with a life line (but the LOCATION & DIRECTION can certainly not be associated with a typical life line).


Regarding your last few words:

"You cannot as it fits a description for a life line."

So far you refused to present a detailed analysis + an explanation of which details in the print are decisive for you to describe the line as a life line and not a fate line.

(In this post you only have described what would be required for you not call that line a life line: http://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t166p120-any-body-can-give-any-answer-for-this-length-life-line#22452)

Well, okay... you want some 'proof'?

No problem at all:

I could make the following statement:

Any normal life line will never end in a point at a (dissociated) head line that is found at a location in a vertical plane positioned no more than about 1cm away from the vertical plane where triradius b is found (= the riradius below the middle finger)

Gna...gna

Patti, in my view you can simply 'proof' that my statement is not correct by finding a hand print example without a 'short life line variant' that shows the same characteristic for the life line.

Very Happy Now, after you asked for some 'proof'... I really hope that you will accept my challenge!

(Because otherwise you are kind of walking away from my 'proof' without any serious attempt to study it's significance)


PS. I assume the details about the vertical plains in that description make sense to you?
If not I will explain my definition for the life line with a picture!

scratch The part of your post that actually makes sense is the part where it seems you want a more detailed analysis from me regarding your aunt's creases than I did earlier.

You also seem to be requesting I find some kind of hand with features similar to your aunts...? scratch I did that earlier in this thread with examples from Wolff, Reid and others. I looked through many of my hand prints and images that are on my computer and there are too many variations. Every hand has it's own unique combination of qualities.

thinking
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Post  Patti on Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:52 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:


I could make the following statement:

Any normal life line will never end in a point at a dissociated head line that is found at a location in a vertical plane positioned no more than about 1cm away from the vertical plane where triradius b is found (= the riradius below the middle finger)

Gna...gna




geek
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Post  Patti on Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:09 am

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Short-18

The lines colored green relate to the thenar crease.

The radial section colored green, is made up of broken and overlaping segments, that appear almost ladder like. They are drawn together with a horizontal influence line also colored green.

Another outer section green line is the continuation of the thenar crease.

The red colored line shows some kind of influence. The red marked lines continue (without red coloring) toward the ring finger, fading out in the creases there.

After this connection in the general area shown by the red lines, the energy shifts to the outer line and the inner line fades out. Green branches a little farther down show another reaching out between the two lines to connect (as well as uncolored influence lines paralleling the red one at an earlier time period).

In the image below with the circled lines, the blue and yellow circles enclose areas of the crease that are disrupted. For me, this is another indication of a shifting of energy from one crease to the other.

The first set of aqua arrows (highest up) point to where the inner line begins to fade into a dermatoglyphic groove and the outer crease shifts directions.

The next set of aqua arrows point to boundaries of an area of the crease that curves inward toward the life line. This coincides with the absence of the inner crease. Now the flexure/extension tension is between the proximal phalangeal crease of the thumb and this thenar crease that is more deeply attached in the skin layers as compared to other creases between it and the thumb. Thumb movement and stance has likely pulled this area towards it. This section is the life line and not fate line related.

The next set of aqua arrows point to a straight piece of this crease. It is a combination section. It could be seen as a piece of fate line bridging the life line. I see it as a mix of the two. Both fate and life. I colored it orange and green. I think the straightness indicates this section is more influenced by the index finger and hypothenar rather than thumb. Ironically, the dgs are straighter on the thumb side and are actually curved in the opposite direction on the hypothenar side.

An orange colored branch rises with a mix of moving toward the ring finger and the middle finger. In a ladder like way it branches both ulnarly and distally. I see it as part of the flow of ridges I colored orange under the middle finger. The orange colored lines are fate line related.

The next branch rising upward from this crease is colored both orange and purple. This section is shown by the last set of aqua arrows. These creases are aiming to the ring finger so I would call them sun line related, but they flow with the upper creases colored orange as well.

Purple are ring finger or sun line related.

The pink lines are Mercury or health lines.

The life line continues around the thumb colored in green. It appears to become broken segments maintaining itself within thenar side of the main line from the t triradius. Faint lines branch toward the ulnar side of the wrist.

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Short-17

Basketball
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:49 am


Patti, I now recognize that where I mentioned the dissociated head line this kind of became a confusing element regarding the point I was trying to make.

So, I apologize for this confusing element (which might have made it look like as if my request included a contradiction).


Therefore I will now make a new attempt to deliver my 'proof' with the following guideline:

A life line will never enter the 'upper palmar zone' at the ulnar side of the triradius below the index finger.

(This guideline is resulting from the fact that a normal life line always progresses downward from from the radial termination point at the 2nd interdigital zone to the center zone at the wrist!)

A fundamental guideline... which could help us to finish this discussion! cheers


I could also translate this fundamental guideline into:

Any normal life line will not pass the 'virtual horizontal plain A-B' (see picture below) at the ulnar side of the a-tradius below the index finger.

NOTICE: The 'virtual horizontal plain A-B' is found between the start of radial termination point of the life line (point A) and the ulnar termination point of the heart line (B)

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Short-12

We can see in the picture that the fate line in my aunt's hand does reach out to the virtual line A-B at a point below the middle finger (at a point only about 1 cm at the radial side of the triradius under de 3rd finger).

And this is actually a very typical characteristics for any fate line that is long enough to pass the head line!


Sorry Patti, for this reason I observe that the fate line in my aunt's hand can VERY LIKELY not be said to show the typical 'placement' (quoted from your words) for a life line: because it violates the sensible guideline that I presented above!

Patti, in my view you can simply 'proof' that my new statement regarding the virtual horizontal plain A-B is not correct by finding a hand print example without a 'short life line variant' that shows the same characteristic for the life line.

Will you now accept my challenge?

(Or maybe you are now willing to acknowledge/confirm that the 4th part of the line in my aunt's hand does show a characteristic that is rather unsually for life line!?)

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:57 pm


Quoted from my post above: "A life line will never enter the 'upper palmar zone' at the ulnar side of the triradius below the index finger."


By the way...

Applying this rule to Parender's example shows that this example is much more 'arbitrair'... because this example does not violate the rule above at all! And in this example the line under discussion also shows a 'curve' that is very typical for a life line... so I understand the associations with the life line.

However, the line under discussion is does end under the middle finger... which concerns a characteristic that is much more typical for a fate line. And I could add that the upper few cm's of that line are slightly 'curving' outward towards the middle finger.

2 typical characteristics for a life line + 2 typical characteristics for a fate line.

So, I am still in doubt about this example:

However, I observe that the upper part of this line looks more like a fate line than a life line!

So, my doubt for this case is kind of focused on the lower part, however since it is not unusual for a fate line to have such characteristics in the lower part of the line... I tend to continue to give my support for Parender's assessment.

(But I can not present much more 'proof' here - beyond that I have explained by detail with my descriptions for the upper part and the lower part of that line)


Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 7858583150_9fff466244_b



Regarding Lynn's example:

I had not commented on that one so far, but I perceive that in that example the life line manifest via two rather weak short life lines + a much stronger mars line.

I associate the stronger line parts near the wrist with other lines: fate line (3th finger line) and health line (5th finger line).


Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Simonr11



Regarding the example that I presented:

Obviously, in this example reaches out beyond the virtual horizontal A-B plain. So that confirms my earlier assessment as well... as it also violates my new guideline regarding the life line!


Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Dirk10



And finally, regarding the other 3 examples that were presented by Patti:

I had not commented about them so far, but I think it is obvious that those do not show much similarities with my aunt's example (and none of those violate my new guideline).

- Ad 1) It's hard for me to comment regarding the Charlotte Wolff example, because the lines are not very clear in that picture at all.

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Charlo10


- Ad 2) I don't think that any experienced palmist would even start thinking of a 'short line', because obviously that is actually just an example of a 'broken' life line (according the definition presented in the Korean article).

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Noel_j10


- Ad 3) I don't want to make any comments about that example, because I think it is obvious that we can only see a very small part of the palm... which makes it kind of impossible to see what is really going on there.

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Fenton10


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:36 pm; edited 4 times in total

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Post  Patti on Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:03 pm

I would prefer to see guidelines that relate to the thenar crease regarding it's location between the thenar and the hypothenar eminences.

The finger creases would more likely be influenced by the fingers. However, I do see your association, as I can tell you have recognized the influence of the index finger on the life line's direction.

As far as slicing the hand vertically from the triradii, no.

I do think it's not very kind of you to ignore much of what I've presented from science and medical texts and then expect me to get excited about some unsubstantiated theory you have presented out of the blue.

wave
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:19 pm

Patti wrote:I would prefer to see guidelines that relate to the thenar crease regarding it's location between the thenar and the hypothenar eminences.

The finger creases would more likely be influenced by the fingers. However, I do see your association, as I can tell you have recognized the influence of the index finger on the life line's direction.

As far as slicing the hand vertically from the triradii, no.

I do think it's not very kind of you to ignore much of what I've presented from science and medical texts and then expect me to get excited about some unsubstantiated theory you have presented out of the blue.

wave

Patti, just like we can see sometimes that a head line can 'cross' a life line... likewise patterns are seen for the variations of the fate line and life line near the central wrist zone.

So, this time your request does not make sense for me at all... because your experience should have told you that the typical variations for the life line and fate line in the carpal zone of the palm show a large amount of overlap!

And for this reason it is quite surrealistic to see you suddenly asking now for any guidelines in terms of 'proof' regarding the carpal zone of the hand.


By the way, meanwhile your requests start showing an endless pattern of 'jumping-away' from the implications of my answers to your requests and remarks... by simply making new requests.

Because after so many years you should have known by now that the major differences between a fate line and a life line are found in the central zone of the palm... and not in wrist zone!!



PS. Regarding your final words... Patti, by fact: I have posted many responses to your postings where you presented references to scientific materials... so your complaint shows a lack of specificity (and as a matter of fact, your complaint goes far beyond the truth regarding the detailed content of my responses to your posts).

By the way, I hope you will understand the implications of my comment regarding the 'overlap' between the life line and fate line in the carpal zone. Because your attempt to search via scientific materials for finding some kind of exclusive 'proof' regarding the characteristics for the fate line and the life line in the carpal zone... is actually kind of a 'mission-impossible' - for, the 'overlap' of the most common variations between both lines is actually by fact: considerably large.

Again, a likewise large 'overlap' is seen in regarding the starting point of the life line and head line!

And therefore it would have only made sense if you had asked for specific 'proof' regarding the upper part of the lines that we have been discussing!

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Post  Patti on Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:43 pm

Creases naturally fuse with other creases once they leave their normal territories, such as the merging of the heart line with the head line in the simian crease. The life line often fuses with the head line as well as the fate line. The fate line and head line often fuse.
Most of the time you can, with a close look, find features that show where they meet, merge or overlap.

Here's an example of unusual fusions of major creases.

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Argosy10



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Post  Patti on Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:17 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
[color=darkred]Patti, just like we can see sometimes that a head line can 'cross' a life line... likewise patterns are seen for the variations of the fate line and life line near the central wrist zone.

So, this time your request does not make sense for me at all... because your experience should have told you that the typical variations for the life line and fate line in the carpal zone of the palm show a large amount of overlap!

And for this reason it is quite surrealistic to see you suddenly asking now for any guidelines in terms of 'proof' regarding the carpal zone of the hand.

Perhaps it'd become less surreal if you studied the dermatoglyphics in this area.


By the way, meanwhile your requests start showing an endless pattern of 'jumping-away' from the implications of my answers to your requests and remarks... by simply making new requests.

odd... I thought exact same thing of you! lol!

Because after so many years you should have known by now that the major differences between a fate line and a life line are found in the central zone of the palm... and not in wrist zone!!

The fate line and head lines are not as restricted in their boundaries as is the life line. Therefore, the fate line location at the wrist is widely variable. It is rare for the life line to expand beyond the t triradius' main lines, particularly when this triradius is nearer the wrist. I'm glad you are at last acknowledging the central zone where the fate and life lines fuse. This location is obviously the boundary between the thenar and the hypothenar as I've been saying all along.



By the way, I hope you will understand the implications of my comment regarding the 'overlap' between the life line and fate line in the carpal zone. Because your attempt to search via scientific materials for finding some kind of exclusive 'proof' regarding the characteristics for the fate line and the life line in the carpal zone... is actually kind of a 'mission-impossible' - for, the 'overlap' of the most common variations between both lines is actually by fact: considerably large.

Again, a likewise large 'overlap' is seen in regarding the starting point of the life line and head line!

And therefore it would have only made sense if you had asked for specific 'proof' regarding the upper part of the lines that we have been discussing!
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Post  Lynn on Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:13 pm

Patti wrote:The point I'm making (or trying to) is that each is based on different criteria in development. Each being the part of the thenar crease that forms in the interdigital space between the thumb and index, and the section of the thenar crease that forms in the boundaries between the thenar and the hypothenar pads.

The upper formation is based on the develop and condition of the interdigital pad (mars mount) and the rest of the thenar crease forms around the thenar pad (Venus) between the thenar and the hypothenar eminences. This latter is influenced by the condition and shape of the thenar pad.

These are the basic conditions the thenar crease forms under.

The middle finger crease (fate line) forms/develops under different circumstances than a thenar crease. It doesn't need to be in the groove between the thenar and hypothenar pads as it's a minor crease. If there's a crease that runs in this groove it is likely thenar crease related more so than middle finger crease related. I think the thenar crease is complete before the middle finger crease during development, particularly since it began forming weeks earlier.

Aha! Ok thanks. So you're just talking about development & embryos. I guess I was trying to read something into it, making it more complex than it was!
It doesn't really help us with identifying the lines (thenar crease/fate line) on the hand after they've formed tho does it? We'd have to see it during development to determine whether it formed in the groove or not!

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Post  Patti on Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:01 pm

Lynn wrote:
Patti wrote:The point I'm making (or trying to) is that each is based on different criteria in development. Each being the part of the thenar crease that forms in the interdigital space between the thumb and index, and the section of the thenar crease that forms in the boundaries between the thenar and the hypothenar pads.

The upper formation is based on the develop and condition of the interdigital pad (mars mount) and the rest of the thenar crease forms around the thenar pad (Venus) between the thenar and the hypothenar eminences. This latter is influenced by the condition and shape of the thenar pad.

These are the basic conditions the thenar crease forms under.

The middle finger crease (fate line) forms/develops under different circumstances than a thenar crease. It doesn't need to be in the groove between the thenar and hypothenar pads as it's a minor crease. If there's a crease that runs in this groove it is likely thenar crease related more so than middle finger crease related. I think the thenar crease is complete before the middle finger crease during development, particularly since it began forming weeks earlier.

Aha! Ok thanks. So you're just talking about development & embryos. I guess I was trying to read something into it, making it more complex than it was!
It doesn't really help us with identifying the lines (thenar crease/fate line) on the hand after they've formed tho does it? We'd have to see it during development to determine whether it formed in the groove or not!

Once the main lines form in the fetus, they are permanent. The boundary between the hypothenar and the thenar is permanent.
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Post  Lynn on Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:13 pm

Patti wrote:Once the main lines form in the fetus, they are permanent. The boundary between the hypothenar and the thenar is permanent.
Apologies if I am being slow to understand. Yes I know the lines are permanent. Am I correct in saying that the boundary between the hypothenar and thenar is the lifeline? In a case like Martijn's aunt, how does this help us to decide if the lower line is a lifeline or fate line? We don't know if it formed in a groove. ??

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Post  Patti on Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:54 pm

Lynn wrote:
Patti wrote:Once the main lines form in the fetus, they are permanent. The boundary between the hypothenar and the thenar is permanent.
Apologies if I am being slow to understand. Yes I know the lines are permanent. Am I correct in saying that the boundary between the hypothenar and thenar is the lifeline? In a case like Martijn's aunt, how does this help us to decide if the lower line is a lifeline or fate line? We don't know if it formed in a groove. ??

Or I'm too happy move

The thenar crease is described as forming in the groove and the groove is being defined as the dividing factor between the thenar and hyperthenar pads/eminences.

If surgeons were looking at a hand with a single longitudinal crease and it flowed upward without turning toward the radial side, as well as located in this groove, it would be the thenar crease. The proximal section of the thenar crease.

Medical texts describe the thenar as starting/ending above the wrist at the center. The creases that branch around the thumb or in the other direction are likely branches and could be labeled in various ways. I think we have always agreed the ends/beginnings of the major creases as being more prone to change i.e. grow, strengthen or weaken and shorten, etc., whereas the central portion more permanent.
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Post  Lynn on Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:09 pm

Patti wrote:If surgeons were looking at a hand with a single longitudinal crease and it flowed upward without turning toward the radial side, as well as located in this groove, it would be the thenar crease. The proximal section of the thenar crease.

But how would they know if it was formed in a groove? The grooves disappear at the same time as the volar pads regress, around 12 weeks.

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Post  Lynn on Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:35 pm

[quote="Patti"]
Lynn wrote:
Patti wrote:Once the main lines form in the fetus, they are permanent. The boundary between the hypothenar and the thenar is permanent.
Apologies if I am being slow to understand. Yes I know the lines are permanent.

I wish to amend what I said there! The lines are not permanent as in unchanging - we know the lines can change.

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Post  Patti on Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:15 pm

Lynn wrote:
Patti wrote:If surgeons were looking at a hand with a single longitudinal crease and it flowed upward without turning toward the radial side, as well as located in this groove, it would be the thenar crease. The proximal section of the thenar crease.

But how would they know if it was formed in a groove? The grooves disappear at the same time as the volar pads regress, around 12 weeks.

The major creases are anchored into several layers of skin so that the skin doesn't slide across the palm. Where they are attached at this deeper level, they don't move around or relocate. The thenar crease initially forms in the space between the thenar and the hypothenar eminences, and in the area where the interdigital pad between thumb and index is located. and stays in that location.

Also, the thenar area and the hypothenar area have different sets of muscles. The thenar crease is in the boundary zone between these muscle groups.



The ends of the major creases or more likely to change than the central portion. I didn't think there was disagreement here..?
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Post  Patti on Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:40 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti, I now recognize that where I mentioned the dissociated head line this kind of became a confusing element regarding the point I was trying to make.

So, I apologize for this confusing element (which might have made it look like as if my request included a contradiction).


Therefore I will now make a new attempt to deliver my 'proof' with the following guideline:

A life line will never enter the 'upper palmar zone' at the ulnar side of the triradius below the index finger.

(This guideline is resulting from the fact that a normal life line always progresses downward from from the radial termination point at the 2nd interdigital zone to the center zone at the wrist!)

A fundamental guideline... which could help us to finish this discussion! cheers


I could also translate this fundamental guideline into:

Any normal life line will not pass the 'virtual horizontal plain A-B' (see picture below) at the ulnar side of the a-tradius below the index finger.

NOTICE: The 'virtual horizontal plain A-B' is found between the start of radial termination point of the life line (point A) and the ulnar termination point of the heart line (B)

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Short-12

We can see in the picture that the fate line in my aunt's hand does reach out to the virtual line A-B at a point below the middle finger (at a point only about 1 cm at the radial side of the triradius under de 3rd finger).

And this is actually a very typical characteristics for any fate line that is long enough to pass the head line!


Sorry Patti, for this reason I observe that the fate line in my aunt's hand can VERY LIKELY not be said to show the typical 'placement' (quoted from your words) for a life line: because it violates the sensible guideline that I presented above!

Patti, in my view you can simply 'proof' that my new statement regarding the virtual horizontal plain A-B is not correct by finding a hand print example without a 'short life line variant' that shows the same characteristic for the life line.

Will you now accept my challenge?

(Or maybe you are now willing to acknowledge/confirm that the 4th part of the line in my aunt's hand does show a characteristic that is rather unsually for life line!?)

Because of the nature of the thenar crease to form in at least two sections, there will almost always be a place where the longitudinal section meets the section that starts radially. Sometimes this crease, when it continues upward can be seen as an ambition line at around the age of 18.

The life line isn't normally located above the A-B plane. Ends of creases (from broken and/or overlapping lines) may extend in a fading fashion upwards across the head line due to hand use and structure.

The 'a' triradius can also be found located near the radial edge of the palm or closer to the middle finger, how would this change your plane?

Basically, again you are mostly safe in your chosen guidelines for the area by the fingers because it's a rare location to find the life line, and by adding 'normal' makes your guidelines even safer.

Since no one is really looking for a life line up by the fingers - what purpose does this serve?




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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:40 am

Patti wrote:
Lynn wrote:
Patti wrote:Once the main lines form in the fetus, they are permanent. The boundary between the hypothenar and the thenar is permanent.
Apologies if I am being slow to understand. Yes I know the lines are permanent. Am I correct in saying that the boundary between the hypothenar and thenar is the lifeline? In a case like Martijn's aunt, how does this help us to decide if the lower line is a lifeline or fate line? We don't know if it formed in a groove. ??

Or I'm too happy move

The thenar crease is described as forming in the groove and the groove is being defined as the dividing factor between the thenar and hyperthenar pads/eminences.

If surgeons were looking at a hand with a single longitudinal crease and it flowed upward without turning toward the radial side, as well as located in this groove, it would be the thenar crease. The proximal section of the thenar crease.

Medical texts describe the thenar as starting/ending above the wrist at the center. The creases that branch around the thumb or in the other direction are likely branches and could be labeled in various ways. I think we have always agreed the ends/beginnings of the major creases as being more prone to change i.e. grow, strengthen or weaken and shorten, etc., whereas the central portion more permanent.

Patti, maybe you are far too much happy move ... and loosing track with 'the obvious', because when we take a look at the life line example in most books about hand reading then we see usually a life line that is ending at the RADIAL side of the palm!


Now, I think you have so far in this topic presented only a few examples of scientific sources which describe a general description for the path of the normal path of the thenar crease.

(I noticed that Lynn also started asking questions about where you actually found your assumptions/conclusions regarding what your quotes describe - and I likewise wonder about the origins of your statement regarding what 'surgeons' would describe)


Because when we dive into sources which present more detailed info about where the thenar tends to develop exactly... a very different picture rises compared to your assumptions regarding the rather general descriptions in the scientific works that you presented earlier (such as your incorrect assumption above - labeled with red color).

This example describes why your assumption is incorrect:

Because due to the bone structure the thenar crease actually tends to follow a path ending at the upper radial side of the wrist due to the underlying bone structure, see the picture below.

Source:
'Hand and Wrist' (page 2) - http://books.google.nl/books?hl=en&lr=&id=vIgv982Vkt0C&

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Crease10


PS. You have been talking a few times about as if the life line develops as if there are two creases involved, but in the article 'Embryologic Development of Flexion Crease' we can read that the thenar crease starts developing in week 8 of gestation on the radial side between thumb and index fingers, and in week 10 the thenar crease extends to the center of the palm along the thenar pad.

And it's hard for me to understand why you started talking about the 'ambition line', because that definitely is a matter that relates to the topic 'minor creases'.

By the way, your suggestion that it is rare for the thenar crease to cross the distal ridge-line rising from the t-traradius... is also not correct because in my studies I have notice that in many hands (maybe even above 10%) that ridge-line actually ends in the upper thenar just below the radial termination point of the life line.

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Post  Patti on Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:22 am

Most of what you have questioned I have already described and this thread is much too long to go back and point it out to you. It's fairly obvious to me that you haven't paid much attention to what I have posted as what you respond with is often misconstrued and appears to make it look like I've said something which I haven't. Oh...nooo!

Kimura mentions both directions. You have to read a little further and not just select a statement that fits your purposes. I shared both quotes and the locations I found them.

I've studied the various sketches at many websites and from books I have, and personally I think the sketch adds more support to the outer location for the life line to be located that I have described in these split and overlapping lines. Not only the short extended line of Mars. Note the location where the thenar crease is covering the middle finger metacarpal bone! This is the most common location for the life line (thenar crease) and fate line (middle finger crease) to combine into one line. You might want to look at the veins, too.
study

Sorry, but after tonight I need to focus my attention on several upcoming projects and events. I'll keep an eye on the thread to see how it develops. wave

nice thread
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:24 am

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti, I now recognize that where I mentioned the dissociated head line this kind of became a confusing element regarding the point I was trying to make.

So, I apologize for this confusing element (which might have made it look like as if my request included a contradiction).


Therefore I will now make a new attempt to deliver my 'proof' with the following guideline:

A life line will never enter the 'upper palmar zone' at the ulnar side of the triradius below the index finger.

(This guideline is resulting from the fact that a normal life line always progresses downward from from the radial termination point at the 2nd interdigital zone to the center zone at the wrist!)

A fundamental guideline... which could help us to finish this discussion! cheers


I could also translate this fundamental guideline into:

Any normal life line will not pass the 'virtual horizontal plain A-B' (see picture below) at the ulnar side of the a-tradius below the index finger.

NOTICE: The 'virtual horizontal plain A-B' is found between the start of radial termination point of the life line (point A) and the ulnar termination point of the heart line (B)

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Short-12

We can see in the picture that the fate line in my aunt's hand does reach out to the virtual line A-B at a point below the middle finger (at a point only about 1 cm at the radial side of the triradius under de 3rd finger).

And this is actually a very typical characteristics for any fate line that is long enough to pass the head line!


Sorry Patti, for this reason I observe that the fate line in my aunt's hand can VERY LIKELY not be said to show the typical 'placement' (quoted from your words) for a life line: because it violates the sensible guideline that I presented above!

Patti, in my view you can simply 'proof' that my new statement regarding the virtual horizontal plain A-B is not correct by finding a hand print example without a 'short life line variant' that shows the same characteristic for the life line.

Will you now accept my challenge?

(Or maybe you are now willing to acknowledge/confirm that the 4th part of the line in my aunt's hand does show a characteristic that is rather unsually for life line!?)

Because of the nature of the thenar crease to form in at least two sections, there will almost always be a place where the longitudinal section meets the section that starts radially. Sometimes this crease, when it continues upward can be seen as an ambition line at around the age of 18.

The life line isn't normally located above the A-B plane. Ends of creases (from broken and/or overlapping lines) may extend in a fading fashion upwards across the head line due to hand use and structure.

The 'a' triradius can also be found located near the radial edge of the palm or closer to the middle finger, how would this change your plane?

Basically, again you are mostly safe in your chosen guidelines for the area by the fingers because it's a rare location to find the life line, and by adding 'normal' makes your guidelines even safer.

Since no one is really looking for a life line up by the fingers - what purpose does this serve?


Patti, in my former post I addressed the issues regarding your 1st and 3rd statements.


Well... I am happy to see that at last you now have acknowledged that "the life line isn't normally located above the A-B plane"!

Remember, earlier in this topic you have claimed that the upper part of the fate line in my aunt's hand should be judged by 'formation' - and I think you described it to be only normal and challenged me to 'proof' my point of view.

NOTICE: Since in your view that line also enters/fuses with the head line... this sort of implicates that in your perceptions the life line is described to come above the A-B plane (I must add here that in my posts I have described that I observe that it actually stops just below the head line).

Regarding your comment about the a-triradius... those variations hardly have any implications (you would have found this yourself as well if you had taken up my challenge).


Finally, regarding your last 2 comments... apparently you don't remember that earlier in this discussion there was a person who has found a life line that is rising above A-B plain and not far away from the fingers:


Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Dirk1011

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Post  Patti on Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:32 am

This last sample is from the pair of hands where you were the person who asked me to describe the lines. I did but you didn't notice.

You probably haven't read the associated post either.

But anyway, the green markings represent group of creases that show flexing together when the hand bunches in some repeated motion.

There is a second image colored differently. I explained myself fairly in detail in the comment.

This is another example of my comments being superficially read and then misrepresented by you. Arrrrgh!!!!

Good night!

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