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Vedic Pamistry

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Vedic Pamistry

Post  Upendrasingh Bhadoriya on Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:44 am

A very few literature of Palmistry are found in Vedic era (It is estimated that the Vedic Period in India lasted from 1500 - 600 B.C) because of mouth to mouth study was very popular in ancient India. So what we found now a days in our region is formatted or reformatted palmistry of that era. Due to lack of evidence we are not sure which part of palmistry pertain to Vedic time and which one is modified. We have suffered a lot due to impose of various foreign culture during 1206 AD to 1946 AD. During my latest study I have found that in old text of palmistry terminology of palm is very different than we are using now a day in the name of “Indian Palmistry”. There is no connection of Mounts, Which are used now are found in Indian palmistry literature. We have lost our identification hence writer like Shree John Fincham writes “In modern times, Indian palmists are often at pains to assert the ancient origins of their art and many claim that in ancient times there were thousands of books on handreading in India. These claims cannot now be substantiated, as very few (if any) of these original texts now remain. This assertion is made all the more unlikely due to the fact that most modern Indian palmists seem to follow the traditions of Western Victorian palmistry rather than any indigenous tradition of their own!” His statement is very true as per my experience because I have visited many palmists across India and have many books of various Indian palmists in various languages with me.
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Re: Vedic Pamistry

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:18 pm

Hello mister Upendrasingh Bhadoriya,

Thank you for sharing your perceptions on "Indian Palmistry"!!

For those we are interested to read more about the history of palmistry in ancient India, I recommend the following source: http://www.cheirology.net/history/ancient.htm

(Actually, that source presents a full summary on the history of hand reading - which starts at the following page: http://www.cheirology.net/history/index.htm )
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Re: Vedic Pamistry

Post  Lynn on Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:54 pm

hi Upendrasingh, interesting to hear your thoughts about it. By the way, the quote you gave was actually by Christopher Jones, not Johnny Fincham. Johnny Fincham's site hosts a version of Christopher's History of Handreading website, that Martijn has linked to.
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Re: Vedic Pamistry

Post  Upendrasingh Bhadoriya on Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:55 am

Martijn & Lynn
Namaste
Thank you for web-link and fact. Actually I have hard copy of history of Palmistry downloaded by somebody in which http://www.johnnyfincham.com/history/science.htm mentioned hence I have given name of Shree Johnny Fincham. Today I have seen a section “Traditional palmistry from India” in forum I will contribute my best and authentically in this part.


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:26 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : link repaired)
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Re: Vedic Pamistry

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:30 am

Upendrasingh Bhadoriya wrote:Martijn & Lynn
Namaste
Thank you for web-link and fact. Actually I have hard copy of history of Palmistry downloaded by somebody in which http://www.johnnyfincham.com /history/science.htm mentioned hence I have given name of Shree Johnny Fincham. Today I have seen a section “Traditional palmistry from India” in forum I will contribute my best and authentically in this part.


Sounds great mister Bhadoriya!

You are very welcome to share your thoughts at the section "Traditional palmistry from India"

(This symbol reminds me about the Indian God Ganesha)
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Re: Vedic Pamistry

Post  Upendrasingh Bhadoriya on Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:36 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:

(This symbol reminds me about the Indian God Ganesha)






Respected Martijnji
Namste & Thank you
You are right ,this symbol means Lord Ganesh in India. We always
worship Lord Ganesh at the starting of all work.
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Re: Vedic Pamistry

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:21 pm



By the way, we should add...

According the ancient Vedas, the history of the creation of palmistry was as follows:

After getting inspired by lord Shiva, it was lord Kartikeya who actually created palmistry; but then it was thrown in to the sea by lord Ganesha! And finally the sea handed palmistry back in to the hands of lord Shiva.

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Re: Vedic Pamistry

Post  Manfred on Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:56 am

Dear Upendrasingh and Stalin,

please can you help me. I'm just writing an article/intoduction for Astrowiki about Astro-palmistry and need some infomation.
Fred Gettings writes in "The book of the hand" p. 160: "....the earliest reference to palmistry in Indian literature is found in the Vasishtha rule 21 were an ascetic is forbidden to earn his living either "by explaining prodigies and omens, or by skills in astrology and palmistry, or by casuistry and expositions of the Shastras"".

Could you help me to find the source (in the internet)"

Thank you.

With kind regards
Manfred


Last edited by Manfred on Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:41 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Vedic Pamistry

Post  sv-b on Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:40 am

Hello manfred, Smile

I have very limited knowledge about the subject what you are asking me. Stories on sage.vasistha are favorite among indians. we can find some of the history/stories about him through internet surfing. but, i cannot give you any details about his contribution in astrology and palmistry as those scripts were originally written in sanskrit. I dont know sanskrit. If i gather any information about it, i inform you.

I really dont know which story of vasistha you're looking for. I dont know whether you read the details given in wikipedia link. here is the link.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasistha?wasRedirected=true

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Re: Vedic Pamistry

Post  Manfred on Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:42 am

...still thank you Stalin.
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Re: Vedic Pamistry

Post  Lynn on Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:02 pm

Manfred, that quote is also on Christopher's "Handreading history" website
http://cheirology.net/history/india.htm

I found the Vasishtha rule 21 here
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe14/sbe1413.htm

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Re: Vedic Pamistry

Post  Manfred on Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:27 pm

Dear Lynn:

YOU ARE THE BEST! I love you

I've got the first advice (the names "Code of Manu and Vasishtha rules") from Christopher's text and the advice to nr. 21 from F. Gettings "The book of the hand". But I couldn't find the rule 21 on the internet only until nr. 20 why ever.

Now here is nr.:
1. Let an ascetic depart from his house, giving a promise of safety from injury to all animated beings....
21. 'Neither by (explaining) prodigies and omens, nor by skill in astrology and palmistry, nor by casuistry and expositions (of the Sâstras), let him ever seek to obtain alms.'


I think is very worth to know. May be it's not too little because of to avoid any predictions on the base of "fishing for complements (money)".

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Re: Vedic Pamistry

Post  sv-b on Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:50 pm

Hello lynn, Smile

I did not find much truth in the writings of "chiristopher jones". He mean to say that indians follows the western palmistry nowadays, and they dont have the history about their origins of palmistry. But, It is the known truth that india is the first place where the palmistry rooted as proved by records and researches. Later, Through foreign traders , this art spreaded through out the world.

I claim 'He know little or nothing about indian culture and their history'.

Every country has pre-historic period due to lack of material evidences indeed. His claim is that the earliest record of palmistry found from the scripture written by vasista, dated around 300 b.c. As this script was translated by an english man , namely georg buhler, he came to this wrong conclusion. It does not mean that he learned every ancient scriptures of indians. Now i bet that i can show more earliest records than what christopher claims. I can provide the proof that claims the existences of palmistry in india between 9000-5000B.C periods. The events and history of Rama, incarnation of lord.vishnu. happened around the year 9000-5000B.C in india. We have references in epic ramayana, where many notes about palmistry, body marking reading were mentioned. This directly mean that palmistry was practiced in india before 5000b.c. some of the westerns may claim that period of 9000 B.C were the stone age period. But, the archeological and radio-carbon researches on indian sculpture called kalpha vigrah, was done by american CIA officials at 1960 proves that the sculpture is not belongs to this epoch and 28,450 years old by now. This evidents proves that Existence of rituals , arts on sculpture, literature(sculpture was safed in a teak wood timber box with scripture in it), philosophy, religious laws even before 26,450 B.C by now.
Here is the evident for my statement.
http://theunexplainedmysteries.com/kalpa-vigraha.html

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Re: Vedic Pamistry

Post  Lynn on Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:05 pm

stalin.v wrote:..... His claim is that the earliest record of palmistry found from the scripture written by vasista, dated around 300 b.c. As this script was translated by an english man , namely georg buhler, he came to this wrong conclusion. It does not mean that he learned every ancient scriptures of indians. Now i bet that i can show more earliest records than what christopher claims......

did you mis-read it stalin? Christopher mentions two sources, one from 2000BC & one from 300 BC. It says -
"the earliest known historical certainty concerning the origins of handreading within the Indian sub-continent dates from about 2000BC, for there is a reference to the practice of handreading in the ancient Vedic literature of India. In the Code of Manu and in the Vasishtha Rules, a list of rules are given to guide the ascetic in the correct way to lead the religious life; and here we find prohibitions which are specifically formulated to forbid the ascetic from earning a living through 'explaining prodigies and omens or by skill in astrology or palmistry'. This is possibly the earliest written mentions of the practice of handreading from anywhere in the world.

As with Hindu sacred literature, so the Brahmajala Sutta 1:21 of the Buddhist Vinaya Pitaka, dating from around the third century BC, also prohibits monks from earning a living from prognostication and divination from the hands or by other such means. The continuity of this 'rule' within the different ascetic traditions of India over so many hundreds of years is suggestive of the prevalence of handreading throughout all this time and lends supports to the widely held assertion that all traditions of handreading stemmed originally from India."

I am sure Christopher would welcome your information if you can find records that date further back.


Last edited by Lynn on Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:11 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added another part of the quote)

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Re: Vedic Pamistry

Post  sv-b on Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:46 pm

Hello lynn, Smile

Thanks for the correction. I'm not much exposed to the scriptures written by aryans. Then, The word 'betray' or 'forbidden' does not suit when ascetics are NOT allowed to earn money through any means ie., practicing divinations.. The ascetics of india should leave all material pleasures including wealth, family and society. When buddha planned to lead the ascetic life , first he left the kingdom. It is the rule in hinduism that ascetics should not earn money through any means. That does not mean that they were betrayed or forbidden by religion. It gives way to avoid the materialistic comforts. Buddha, was a king, but he lead an ascetic life and had food by begging. It is the interest of buddha to lead a ascetic life. It does not mean that he himself betrayed. On contrary, Ascetics are having higher social and religious values
although they beg and eat. Westerns should note this aspects before write about ascetics. because, pope of christians may live in air-conditioned room. but, the idea of hinduism is far remote in this matter.

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Re: Vedic Pamistry

Post  Lynn on Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:13 pm

sorry stalin, I don't understand. I don't see any mention of 'betrayed' in what Christopher wrote. You say they are 'not allowed' that means the same as 'forbidden'.

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Re: Vedic Pamistry

Post  Manfred on Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:50 pm

Hy,
beside the material world denying or avoiding aspect is, that interpreting omens, astrology and palmistry are subjects with wich the ascets are dealing.

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Re: Vedic Pamistry

Post  sv-b on Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:06 pm

Hello lynn, Smile

Christopher writes

" In the code of manu and in the vasistha rules, a list of rules are given to guide the ascetic in the correct way to lead the religious life. and here we find prohibitions which are specifically formulated to forbid the ascetic from earning a living through "explaining prodigies and omens or by skill in astrology or palmistry''. "

In this paragraph, christopher give wrong impression that Indian ascetics are forbidden by the hindu's rules. Infact, Hinduism never compel anyone to lead the ascetic life. Infact, it is individual wish to either lead a family life or lead a ascetic life. I suggest that he should not use the word "forbid" in that paragraph. saints never feel that they were forbidden by leading ascetic life. Infact, they enjoys the life far better than the people who lead rich and luxurious life. Another mistake made by him is that he gives the impression by saying that all ascetics are leading religious life. It is quite wrong. They lead spiritual life. There is so much difference between religious life and spiritual life. Because , A family man can lead a religious life, not spiritual life. but, ascetics can only lead the spiritual life. prayer and devotion are not sufficient enough to increase the spiritual awareness. It can be only done by ascetics, via penance.
It is the individual wish/interest to lead an ascetic life if they want liberation. It does not mean that ascetics are the only peoples following the hinduism perfectly. In many scriptures of hinduism , it has been mentioned that virtues cannot be obtained without leading family life. Hence, Hinduism is not calling all the peoples to lead an ascetic life unlike buddhism. It gives way to both extremes of life. you can find sensual scriptuer in hinduism, formulated by sages. It allows family life as well. All depends on individual choices of living and their freedom. Religious Scriptures are made to guide them in either of the family life or ascetic life. But, still those are not strict rules. Those are guidance to the humanity. Smile

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Re: Vedic Pamistry

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:32 pm

stalin.v wrote:Hello lynn, Smile

Christopher writes

" In the code of manu and in the vasistha rules, a list of rules are given to guide the ascetic in the correct way to lead the religious life. and here we find prohibitions which are specifically formulated to forbid the ascetic from earning a living through "explaining prodigies and omens or by skill in astrology or palmistry''. "

In this paragraph, christopher give wrong impression that Indian ascetics are forbidden by the hindu's rules. Infact, Hinduism never compel anyone to lead the ascetic life. Infact, it is individual wish to either lead a family life or lead a ascetic life. I suggest that he should not use the word "forbid" in that paragraph. saints never feel that they were forbidden by leading ascetic life. Infact, they enjoys the life far better than the people who lead rich and luxurious life.

Quoted from the source mentioned by Lynn:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe14/sbe1413.htm

"20. Now they quote also (the following verses): 'There is no salvation for him who is addicted to - p48 - the pursuit of the science of words, nor for him who rejoices in captivating men, nor for him who is fond of (good) eating and (fine) clothing, nor for him who loves a pleasant dwelling.'

21. 'Neither by (explaining) prodigies and omens, nor by skill in astrology and palmistry, nor by casuistry and expositions (of the Sâstras), let him ever seek to obtain alms.'

22. 'Let him not be dejected when he obtains nothing, nor glad when he receives something. Let him only seek as much as will sustain life, without caring for household property.'"



Hi Stalin,

Sounds like that according the Vasishtha, the 'ascetic life' does require not to practice palmistry for any reward in return.

And then, describing line 21 as a 'forbid' (like both Fred Getttings & Christopher Jones did) sounds like an accurate review!

At the end... there is hardly any difference between a strict requirement and a 'forbid'.


PS. Though I can understand there is a philosophical difference between a requirement and a 'forbid' - but why worry about just a single word used by Gettings & Jones??? (The spirit of their translations is quite proper!)

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Re: Vedic Pamistry

Post  sv-b on Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:10 pm

Hello martijn, Smile

It is not easy to feel the culture through arguments. I see christians, muslims, hindus, jains, and buddhist in india. I live and feel those people. we all are together. I see popes in india. I see saints in india. With a mutual understanding, we accept all religion and customs.

But, To make you understand what i mean, i can give a good number of examples.

what are the difference between christian pope and family man in hindu. what way they differ? only renunciation is the matter differentiate these two. Apart from that they both were allowed to live like a normal human being. But, why indian saints are going to forest and living there. what is the matter behind it. They can avoid the human contact very much. This allows the saint to not divert his attention towards materialistic pleasure. why should not they possess wealth and keep money? They should not fall into the any kind of desires . because, It might divert their spiritual path. Pope, saints, sages, ascetics, family man are all having the tendency and desire of human by birth. Their sexual desires or physiology of sex is not completely vanished after getting the title ''pope", or "saint". Hence, the guidelines were made by ancient hindus in order to reach perfection. i give only few reasons here although there are many. Very important thing is that a family man can turn into saint if he wishes. Noone can compel or push anybody to lead a ascetic life. It is their freedom/choice of living. Hence, the word 'forbid' is extremely wrong idea when mentioning saints..

your explanation sounds like popes were forbidden as they remain sexual abstinence. We read in news that how much christian/hindu saint or father do sexual offences. In order to avoid such sequences, ancient saints were guided by such rules. still, it is their wish of living. no restrictions or noone watch them whether they all follow the rule or not. Hence, it is extremely wrong to mean that they were forbidden.

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Re: Vedic Pamistry

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:23 pm

stalin.v wrote:Hello martijn, Smile

... Hence, it is extremely wrong to mean that they were forbidden.

Hello Stalin, Smile

How about the word 'commandment'? - If both authors had used that word, would that have solved your problem?

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Re: Vedic Pamistry

Post  sv-b on Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:45 pm

Hello martijn, Smile

I remember a short jen story.

A jen monk relaxes at seashore. At the time, alexander comes there. But, The monk does not bother alexandar and relaxing by seeing the sea.

Alexander says arrogantly, 'I am alexandar'.
Monk respond nothing.
Alexander ask again, 'I can help you, i can give you whatever you want'
Monk replies, I am enjoying sunlight now. so, just move aside.

This is the life style of ascetics. They cannot be win over by rules, or commandments. They seems like beggers. But, They can control the nature, fate, and death. Some stories in hinduism says that they have even control over demi-gods. They are wiser than scientists.

Check this link:
http://books.google.com/books?id=kPP3iVVXqTUC&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=THIRUKKURAL+PENANCE&source=bl&ots=TyrxGlWuOr&sig=32hl_Len4-UryA2467N2JeQIEkQ&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false
(I dont know whether this link works or not)

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Re: Vedic Pamistry

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:24 pm


Okay I understand that for the same reason 'commandment' is not okay for you either.

Anyway, the major 'implication' of how the Vasishtha describes the ascetic life is... that for the proper use of palmistry, it is best to never ask a reward.

Again, I think the choice of words used by Gettings & Jones... indicates that they have very well understood this implication.


Dear Stalin, formally (from a philosophic point of view) ... I think you've made a valid point.

But basically one can always try to 'read' words in various tones.

And your words:

"Hence, it is extremely wrong to mean that they were forbidden."

... illustrate which tone was triggered in your mind when you read this word!! ( Evil or Very Mad You disagreed!)

Coud that be an example of what you recently described as your 'saturn-like nature'? - Your nature might be involved in how you read the word. Resulting in putting too much salt on that single word, en now you are probably not able to recognize how the word was meant to be used according the authors.

Stalin, I am even quite sure that... applause if you had been able to talk with both authors, before they published their writings, you had probably been able to convince them that they better had used another word!


thinking But at the end, my point would still be... from their words I get the impression that both authors very well understood the implications of the Vasishtha writings.

And I am thinking about the possibility that Jones might even have copied the word 'forbidden' from Gettings work, but in general... it would be more wise to not worry about specific words at all... and instead to take single words with a 'pinch of salt', etc.


Not sure that there is any better word available... though I think in general it is quite natural to describe a description from a Vedic text as a 'guideline'.


Though formally I understand there is no 'guideline' to be come an ascetic.
But at the end one could even starting wondering about why the Vasishtha .... presents the descriptions of an ascetic!


lol!

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Re: Vedic Pamistry

Post  sv-b on Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:49 pm

Hello martijn, Smile

you seems out of ground.

There is an indian proverb . "we can get back scattered rice, but we can not take it back the words if once released"

The word can be "one" . But, Readers must be thousands or even million. You know how the internet communication expose to the public immediately all over the world. If christopher informs likewise wrong ideas, many peoples will be mis-guided/mis-informed. dont you agree?

saturn... Ha...ha.. It is really nice of you. There will be special mark expected on the saturn mount of saints. dont you agree? we, hindus have seperate devotional scripture for saturn god namely 'shani mahatyam' which is of ancient sanskrit origin. Almost, all people fear of saturn. Though, he is the one gives wealth. Come and see the saturn devotees in india ... He has many devotees in india. By the way, i like your comment in this regard.
Your last comment seems funny. When did i say saint dont have to follow any rules. I say that they cannot be win over by any rules.

Finally, I would like to say that i will be happy if christopher come across this page and read my written comments about his work. Smile

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Re: Vedic Pamistry

Post  Manfred on Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:24 am

Dear friends,

because I pushed the stone first to roll, please let me have one word:

Now we are again at the same point as so often. My recommendation:
Take one step behind and look at it from a distance. As many people live as many slightly different interpretations of "facts" are possible, because everyone wears slightly different glasses. If you can't agree me, take the following sentence simply as a haiku for a meditation. Remember at the beginning was:

21. 'Neither by (explaining) prodigies and omens, nor by skill in astrology and palmistry, nor by casuistry and expositions (of the Sâstras), let him ever seek to obtain alms.'

With best wishes
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