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Strange bend of top planx of middle finger. Experts please?

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Re: Strange bend of top planx of middle finger. Experts please?

Post  Sucom on Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:08 pm

Hi Martijn and Lynn

I don't know what I have inadvertently stepped into here but don't really feel in a position to comment.

Anything I have said in this thread is directly a result of the posts within it, nothing more and nothing less. Perhaps if I read a little more, I will have more understanding so please don't jump on me just yet! I was looking forward to some discussion with Kiran and it seems we've sidetracked a little.

Sue


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Re: Strange bend of top planx of middle finger. Experts please?

Post  Lynn on Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:30 pm

sorry Sue, I wasn't jumping on you! I wasn't sure why this thread made you feel that casual chat and discussion was not really on the agenda.

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Re: Strange bend of top planx of middle finger. Experts please?

Post  Patti on Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:52 pm

Sucom wrote:
This actually has been a major part of my life since I was very young so it doesn't surprise me to find my Saturn and Apollo fingers leaning towards each other so noticeably. In fact, I would go so far as to say that allowing this creative energy flow IS my life purpose. Without this, from my point of view, there would be no life. I have always identified with the words of the song 'Music' where the lyrics say, 'To live without my music would be impossible to do. In this world of trouble, my music pulls me through'.


Hi Sue,
We all talked a long time ago about the index and middle fingers leaning toward the little finger and the ring and little leaning toward the thumb. Creating kind of a tapering effect of the hand when the fingers are held closed, or what was considered the conic shaped hand. Seemed we agreed this combination was often on artistic, sensitive people.

In this case, in this topic, it appears that the ring finger (with the little finger right beside it) leans toward the middle, like you describe yours.

Don't mean to spoil it with science, but I'd still look at the posture. Thinking of you I wonder about the position you sit at the piano. Arms forward on the keyboard and legs forward on the pedals.... leaning toward each other. I recently read an article that mentioned that people who text a lot on their phones are stretching their necks forward creating a 'texting posture'.

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Re: Strange bend of top planx of middle finger. Experts please?

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:57 pm

Sucom wrote:Hi Martijn and Lynn

I don't know what I have inadvertently stepped into here but don't really feel in a position to comment.

Anything I have said in this thread is directly a result of the posts within it, nothing more and nothing less. Perhaps if I read a little more, I will have more understanding so please don't jump on me just yet! I was looking forward to some discussion with Kiran and it seems we've sidetracked a little.

Sue


Hi Sue,

Sorry, I don't recognize how the following sentence could anyhow relate to the preceding posts in this thread:


Sucom wrote:I have only visited this forum on the very odd occasion so was not really aware that casual chat and discussion was not really on the agenda.
Can you please explain what you have in mind exactly?


(Let me explain the nature of my request: in my perception your sentence above suggests directly that you found that this forum has some kind of an 'agenda' where 'casual chat and discussion' are not welcome. I consider Lynn's response a likewise expression of her worries regarding this sentence, confirmed only in her latest short response.
B.t.w. I had already mentioned in advance that I may have misunderstood the intend behind your words - but since your response does not clarify anything about the sentence at all... I would like to ask you again: will you please at least try to explain what you wanted to say there? Sue, it would be helpful if you simply speak out frankly regarding that sentence - in order to avoid any further misunderstanding about those words from yours)

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Re: Strange bend of top planx of middle finger. Experts please?

Post  Sucom on Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:42 pm

Hi Martyn

I'm sorry for my delayed response - some unexpected visitors turned up this evening.

I really do think my use of the word 'agenda' has been taken far too literally. I can only assume it has hit a raw nerve somewhere. This was certainly not intended.

As you know, my philosophy is very spiritually biased. In my response to Kiran, I was coming from that perspective, and when you posted about clinodactyly, my first reaction was 'OK, that's the end of THAT conversation'. In all honesty, it made me feel a little restricted. And I thought I made this clear in my post. That's all there is to it!

Not too sure why I'm having to defend myself here..... and not even sure I want to!




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Re: Strange bend of top planx of middle finger. Experts please?

Post  Parender on Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:13 am

Here’s what I to do to be a leader in my field and teach too.

I stop focusing on ‘proving’ myself and instead start focusing on ‘improving’ myself. Instead of defending my current knowledge, I find ways to continually increase my levels of understanding and grow as a person. And instead of becoming defensive and fighting against negative feedback, embrace feedback of all kinds and use it to get better. If I want to be a leader, I must stop trying to be perfect, I have to learn from my mistakes and ask for help without fear. I have learned lessons (sometimes a gold nugget of adv ice) here on this forum and wrote down.

As far as bend of upper phalange of middle finger is concerned, no sign on the palms of the hands is absolute in itself. Everything influences everything.
This may reveal that the ‘restrictions’ has made the person slow to act, slow to change, rather selfish, depressed, doing hardship in a negative way or made the person efficient in positive way by adapting disciplined acts in his/her life. Its positive aspects are above all are responsibility, perseverance, practicality, caution, constructiveness, patience, solidity, endurance, self- disciplined, trustworthiness and thrift. This bend may give a person sunny outlook of course, but ‘final outcome’ will depend upon the formation of Head Line and Fate Line. This finger denotes money issues too of course. Predicting is very delicate part of hand analysis. Here completeness and ability to establish combinations is required. Enjoy!

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Re: Strange bend of top planx of middle finger. Experts please?

Post  zaobhand on Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:33 pm

Hi Sue,

I'm curious, what markers of sensitivity does your hand have? If you don't mind sharing.

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Re: Strange bend of top planx of middle finger. Experts please?

Post  Sucom on Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:28 pm

zaobhand wrote:Hi Sue,

I'm curious, what markers of sensitivity does your hand have? If you don't mind sharing.

Hi,

What kind of sensitivity markers are you wondering about? You're right, I do have quite sensitive hands. Are you thinking about how these signs might relate to the saturn finger leaning across slightly to Apollo?


Last edited by Sucom on Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Strange bend of top planx of middle finger. Experts please?

Post  Kiran.Katawa on Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:34 pm

Hi sue, do u have any comments to my reply? I hope u have not missed my reply.

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Re: Strange bend of top planx of middle finger. Experts please?

Post  Sucom on Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:42 pm

Kiran.Katawa wrote:Hi sue, do u have any comments to my reply? I hope u have not missed my reply.

Hi Kiran Smile
I'm sorry - I haven't missed your message. I think I have been just a little distracted but will aim to respond this evening when I have time to bring my thoughts together. Looking forward to further discussion Thumbs up!

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Re: Strange bend of top planx of middle finger. Experts please?

Post  Patti on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:12 pm

Sucom wrote:
zaobhand wrote:Hi Sue,

I'm curious, what markers of sensitivity does your hand have? If you don't mind sharing.

Hi,

I uploaded a piece of music onto youtube not so long back for a student who was learning this particular piece for an exam. It's a fairly slow piece so you can see my hands reasonably easily, although you cannot see my palms. It can be found at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKTlRmxSrIQ&feature=plcp


That was nice! You make it look so easy as your fingers flow like liquid slowly across the keyboard. I liked to watch how easy you crossed one hand over the over other and the fingers on both kept playing the keys.

:=D>:


Last edited by Patti on Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Strange bend of top planx of middle finger. Experts please?

Post  zaobhand on Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:16 pm

Sucom wrote:
zaobhand wrote:Hi Sue,

I'm curious, what markers of sensitivity does your hand have? If you don't mind sharing.

Hi,

I uploaded a piece of music onto youtube not so long back for a student who was learning this particular piece for an exam. It's a fairly slow piece so you can see my hands reasonably easily, although you cannot see my palms. It can be found at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKTlRmxSrIQ&feature=plcp

What kind of sensitivity markers are you wondering about? You're right, I do have quite sensitive hands. Are you thinking about how these signs might relate to the saturn finger leaning across slightly to Apollo?

Loved your piece of music. Listened to it a few times. hand dance
Yes, I was referring to your bent middle finger since I believe that features do not show up in isolation. But was also curious to see what markers of emotional intelligence you may have, since it appears that you are aware of the underlying context of messages.


Last edited by zaobhand on Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Strange bend of top planx of middle finger. Experts please?

Post  Lynn on Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:20 pm

Thanks for your reply Sue. Enjoyed your piano piece. As Patti said, you make it look so easy!

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Re: Strange bend of top planx of middle finger. Experts please?

Post  Sucom on Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:29 pm

Thanks for the thumbs up Patti, Zaob and Lynn! Much appreciated! Thanks!

Hi Kiran

At last I've managed to consider your post and here is my response.

Thanks for this discussion, I’m enjoying it. You’re right, I did use the words ‘extremely picky’ and yes, I can be really critical (virgo ascendant and moon I’m afraid) but I’m not compulsive. In fact, my sister in law once said of me: “Sue is so laid back I’m surprised she doesn’t fall over” which I found highly amusing at the time. What do I think about rules? Hmmmm – I think I can take them or leave them if I’m seriously honest.
I believe being positive is vitally important, I can’t stress this enough.

I would really like to hear about the interpretations offered by Johnny and Jenny about this bending Saturn finger. What do they say? I also came to my understanding about this feature from reading books and testing their theories out on the unsuspecting public so we must be reading different books and moving in different circles, lol. I’m being light hearted here so do excuse me. I would really like to know what has been offered by other hand readers, so do please give me some idea.

The case you have mentioned about the girl whose parents divorced: you need to explain to me WHY you feel this is relevant with this feature because I’m not seeing the correlation yet. She carries what feeling? Can you explain more?

I don’t attribute my slightly bent Saturn finger with a positive attitude although thinking about it, it must be related to inner channelling and quiet reflection because this is one way to find a positive attitude! Or at least, it helped me to find it.

Regarding a response from testing this feature: I used to offer an online palmistry course and looking back, I’m not sure who was the teacher and who were the students because I learnt so much! Truly I did! The different perspectives offered by so many wonderful people who offered such detailed assignments was truly amazing and I can’t thank them enough for it. I feel honoured to have been in that position. And the feedback on the whole idea of the Saturn finger leaning or curving to Apollo was very positive indeed.

Looking forward to your response
Sue Smile

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Re: Strange bend of top planx of middle finger. Experts please?

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:00 pm

Sucom wrote:Hi Martyn

I'm sorry for my delayed response - some unexpected visitors turned up this evening.

I really do think my use of the word 'agenda' has been taken far too literally. I can only assume it has hit a raw nerve somewhere. This was certainly not intended.

As you know, my philosophy is very spiritually biased. In my response to Kiran, I was coming from that perspective, and when you posted about clinodactyly, my first reaction was 'OK, that's the end of THAT conversation'. In all honesty, it made me feel a little restricted. And I thought I made this clear in my post. That's all there is to it!

Not too sure why I'm having to defend myself here..... and not even sure I want to!


Hi Sue,

Thank you for explaining that. And thank you for confirming that the problem that Lynn and I perceived does result from your words... however, I can accept your explanation that we interpreted your words 'far too literally'.

In response I also would like to notice that I had not made any comment with a 'restrictive' intend or tone at all. So, after I read your words about some kind of 'agenda' ... my thought was: 'wait a minute, what is going on here???'

And so I really wanted to ask you for an explanation. I was not asking you to defend yourself. I was asking for a clarification only in order to better understand the intend of your words.

(Please be aware: for an outsider your words could easily be perceived as sort of a direct attack on the agenda of this forum - even while there is no (restrictive) agenda at all: we only have the forum structure & just couple of forum rules that can be counted with one hand only)

I hope my earlier request makes sense for you now.


Thanks!

PS. Sorry for interrupting this discussion.

___________________________________________
sunny

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Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

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Re: Strange bend of top planx of middle finger. Experts please?

Post  Sucom on Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:21 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Sucom wrote:Hi Martyn

I'm sorry for my delayed response - some unexpected visitors turned up this evening.

I really do think my use of the word 'agenda' has been taken far too literally. I can only assume it has hit a raw nerve somewhere. This was certainly not intended.

As you know, my philosophy is very spiritually biased. In my response to Kiran, I was coming from that perspective, and when you posted about clinodactyly, my first reaction was 'OK, that's the end of THAT conversation'. In all honesty, it made me feel a little restricted. And I thought I made this clear in my post. That's all there is to it!

Not too sure why I'm having to defend myself here..... and not even sure I want to!


Hi Sue,

Thank you for explaining that. And thank you for confirming that the problem that Lynn and I perceived does result from your words... however, I can accept your explanation that we interpreted your words 'far too literally'.

In response I also would like to notice that I had not made any comment with a 'restrictive' intend or tone at all. So, after I read your words about some kind of 'agenda' ... my thought was: 'wait a minute, what is going on here???'

And so I really wanted to ask you for an explanation. I was not asking you to defend yourself. I was asking for a clarification only in order to better understand the intend of your words.

(Please be aware: for an outsider your words could easily be perceived as sort of a direct attack on the agenda of this forum - even while there is no (restrictive) agenda at all: we only have the forum structure & just couple of forum rules that can be counted with one hand only)

I hope my earlier request makes sense for you now.


Thanks!

PS. Sorry for interrupting this discussion.

Hi again Martijn

It was not my intention to cause you or Lynn any concern. I believe the timing of my comments were subject to 'Murphy's law!' My view is to just let it pass and move on.

Sue

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Re: Strange bend of top planx of middle finger. Experts please?

Post  Lynn on Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:36 am

Thanks for your posts Martijn & Sue. I think that cleared up any confusion.

Samz I am so sorry we have digressed so much on your topic!

On my right hand Saturn top phalanx bends towards Apollo. I noticed that in the photo, her hand is outstretched. When I put my hand in that position it exaggerates the curve or bend. After Martijn's post, I measured mine. When my hand is in natural position the angle is 10%, when I stretch it out like in the photo it is 15 - 16 %. It would be interesting to see her hand in a natural position, maybe shaking her hands to relax them and placing them palm down and take a photo of back of hand? Or just holding her hands up with palm facing camera?

I agree with Kiran about "an influence of Apollo on Saturn." i.e more inclined to follow ones own self-expression than sticking to the 'restrictions' of Saturn (conforming to society). As Sue said, it leans towards the ulna or inner person.

Kiran said
The qualities of Saturn aren't set straight. So, there might be issues
with timeliness, commitment, keeping one's words, integrity, guilty, not
willing to adapt to system and processes, not able to complete the
tasks, not being responsible etc.
from a personal experience - Whilst Sue is punctual, I am always late! I don't always complete tasks. However I hope I keep my word and meet commitments. Integrity is very important to me, and I think I am a responsible person!

I think Saturn is more about 'doing what is expected of us / conforming to society'. Sue makes a good point about integrity - 'if you can't be true to yourself, who can you be true to' and in my opinion this would fit with Saturn bending towards Apollo - ie adherence to your own moral or ethical code, which may differ from the views of general society that you live in. (e.g. being a handreader could be seen as not conforming! Wink )

As others have said, my personal experience of having a leaning saturn will not be everyone's experience of it, we need to look at the rest of the hand also. For example is the headline joined or separate, does apollo also curve towards Saturn. If Saturn and Apollo bend towards each other, I see it as conflict
between 'doing what you want to do' and 'doing what is expected of you'. Kiran mentioned 'guilt' - these two leaning towards each other can make people feel guilty for doing their own thing.

It's been pointed out to me that, regarding Martijn's stats, clinodactyly in general ....is often described as being observed in about 10% of
people. Though it is known to be observed most often in the 5th finger
(in 90% of the cases):

If it's found in 10% of people, but 90% of these are on pinky finger, that leaves only 1% to be found in other fingers! (is that maths correct?). I see leaning fingers much more frequently than 1% of people, especially on Saturn. So, as opposed to "abnormal growth and development of the small bones of the finger" as mentioned in the article, and angles of more than 30 degrees that Martijn mentioned, I am talking about "mild clinodactyly" which I see quite often. It is rare to see it as pronounced as in the article

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Re: Strange bend of top planx of middle finger. Experts please?

Post  Lynn on Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:45 am

PS Kiran said
Last week I found a case, who had a severe bent and who said - "She
carries a feeling that 'coz of her, her parents got divorced or
quarreled" till now!!

Sue said
The case you have mentioned about the girl whose parents divorced: you
need to explain to me WHY you feel this is relevant with this feature
because I’m not seeing the correlation yet. She carries what feeling?
Can you explain more?

I understand what Kiran is saying - about people who feel guilty for things that aren't their fault! Kiran I think we need to look at other hand features also, does her apollo also bend to Saturn? what is her handshape, how many lines does she have on her hand, what is her digit ratio etc... Is she really feeling guilty about her parent's divorce or is she feeling that she did not live up to their expectations? Were their quarrels about her, did they quarrel because she did not conform to one parent's view? (e.g. did she refuse an arranged marriage or some such thing (refusing to conform).etc etc sorry for so many questions....

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Re: Strange bend of top planx of middle finger. Experts please?

Post  Kiran.Katawa on Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:46 am

Sucom wrote:Thanks for the thumbs up Patti, Zaob and Lynn! Much appreciated! Thanks!

Hi Kiran

At last I've managed to consider your post and here is my response.

Thanks for this discussion, I’m enjoying it. You’re right, I did use the words ‘extremely picky’ and yes, I can be really critical (virgo ascendant and moon I’m afraid) but I’m not compulsive. In fact, my sister in law once said of me: “Sue is so laid back I’m surprised she doesn’t fall over” which I found highly amusing at the time. What do I think about rules? Hmmmm – I think I can take them or leave them if I’m seriously honest.
I believe being positive is vitally important, I can’t stress this enough.

I would really like to hear about the interpretations offered by Johnny and Jenny about this bending Saturn finger. What do they say? I also came to my understanding about this feature from reading books and testing their theories out on the unsuspecting public so we must be reading different books and moving in different circles, lol. I’m being light hearted here so do excuse me. I would really like to know what has been offered by other hand readers, so do please give me some idea.

The case you have mentioned about the girl whose parents divorced: you need to explain to me WHY you feel this is relevant with this feature because I’m not seeing the correlation yet. She carries what feeling? Can you explain more?

I don’t attribute my slightly bent Saturn finger with a positive attitude although thinking about it, it must be related to inner channelling and quiet reflection because this is one way to find a positive attitude! Or at least, it helped me to find it.

Regarding a response from testing this feature: I used to offer an online palmistry course and looking back, I’m not sure who was the teacher and who were the students because I learnt so much! Truly I did! The different perspectives offered by so many wonderful people who offered such detailed assignments was truly amazing and I can’t thank them enough for it. I feel honoured to have been in that position. And the feedback on the whole idea of the Saturn finger leaning or curving to Apollo was very positive indeed.

Looking forward to your response
Sue Smile
Thank you Sue.
I'll explain further about my friend's case.
Right now, I have little time as I am rushing to office.
Infact, looks line my intuition is working now a days Wink
I thot of giving you the links from Jena's website on what Richard Unger has to say on this.
Here goes the link:
Audio 1st part:
http://handanalysisonline.com/what-the-hands-reveal-free-hand-analysis-class-with-richard-unger/

Info about Saturn finger starts from 27th/28th minute.
And then it gets continued in the 2nd link for which you just have to give your name, email ID and city and you'll be able to download it. You can hear what Richard has to say on this.

Jennifer says this: "indicates exposure to double standards in childhood resulting in rebelliousness, difficulty in coping with responsibility & the need for alone time"

Johnny says: "Ppl have some skewed sense of values and hate bing called converntional. Invariably they feel aggrieved by bureaucracy and convention and support the undergog, resenting the workings of "the system". They want to avoid seriousness and dislike such values as service and duty, though they're often unsure where their absolute faith lies".

Marijn or Lynn or Patti - I hope i amn't violoating any copy right rules by quoting the text exactly or giving references from free stuff. Pls confirm.









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Re: Strange bend of top planx of middle finger. Experts please?

Post  Sucom on Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:56 am

Hi Kiran

Many thanks for posting this. Looking at Jenna’s thoughts, two words in particular stood out from all the rest and these were ‘alone time’. These stood out for me because they are words I personally identify with. Now, someone else reading Jenna’s thoughts might find themselves pulled to the words ‘double standards’ or ‘rebelliousness’ or ‘difficulty in coping with responsibility’.

My own study of hand reading has centred round looking for the black and white, basic underlying essence of what hand features might suggest. And from my point of view, the essence of this feature is found in the words ‘alone time’. I have a page on my web site in the information section about the hand reader and personal beliefs. I wrote this quite a few years ago and although it doesn’t exactly relate to what I am saying here, in essence there is some relation.

Two words keep forming in mind since I read your post – Chinese Whispers. It won’t go away, it’s sitting there refusing to budge! And I can’t help but wonder if this inadvertently plays any part in translations offered by various hand readers around the world.

If Saturn, the finger of balance, leans one way or another, it suggests that the individual’s point of reference is going to centre either around the active, conscious aspects of life (leaning towards the radial side of the hand) or the quiet, reflective, passive, unconscious aspect of life (leaning towards the percussive side of the hand) Or it may remain balanced somewhere between the two.

So if an individual spends a great deal of time in ‘alone time’, their reasons for doing so could be one of so many. For me personally, alone time is vital, and I do mean vital because it allows me to listen to the still voice within, it heighten my awareness, it gives me inspiration to do my work, it allows my intuition to flow, it gives me peace, understanding, balance, hope, optimism, happiness ….so many things. In fact, if I’m stopped, for whatever reason, from finding that quiet time, I can only describe it as a form of torture where a person is deprived of sleep.

My point of reference will hold true for me but is not necessarily true for others. And here we come to the crux of the matter. How much of the hand reader’s own personal point of reference moves forward from the black and white essence of a hand feature to build up the basis of their own interpretation? If a hand reader likes to be around people and spends a large proportion of their time centred round aspects found in the radial aspects of the hand, will they actually ‘fully’ comprehend an individual who prefers to spend time centred round aspects found in the passive area of the hand? And even if they are reasonably good at doing that, is it possible that they are still likely to ‘colour’ their translation by whatever degrees, to fit their own understanding of life and their own point of reference. For instance, if a hand reader’s own sense of responsibility is created by their own active pushing out into the world to create and build, will they necessarily understand an individual’s motive for ‘doing the right thing’ by listening inwardly and allowing a situation to follow through naturally without any sense of a personal ‘I’ or ‘me’ actively pushing? If this is not their own point of reference, it becomes obvious why they might look for ‘reasons’ why a person prefers quiet, ‘alone’ time.

So we come back to Jenna’s words. If I dissect Jenna’s words, ‘indicates exposure to double standards’ is not a translation which is black and white in essence based on the areas of the hands. It is her ‘perspective’ of WHY a person might enjoy ‘alone time’. Similarly, ‘resulting in rebelliousness’ appears to be derived from the idea that any bending or leaning away from society’s rules or any form of conditioning, is suggestive of difficulty in conforming, being rebellious or being responsible. These are ‘colours’ added to the basic essence, derived from Jenna’s own perspective.

I do believe there is room in this world for ALL perspectives. I also believe that like attracts like and that people will be drawn to those who are of like mind. So Jenna’s thoughts on this feature will ring true for those of like mind and they will be drawn to her words and will be able to identify with them. Likewise, there will be those who identify with thoughts and points of reference similar to my own. And, of course, those who won’t! In my view, there is room enough in this world for all perspectives.

But the one thing I really do feel quite strongly about is that the basic essence of a hand feature is not pulled this way and that, twisted, turned, coloured by perspectives, taken out of context, and so on, as in a game of Chinese whispers. My thoughts are that we should come back to the basic essence of a feature and move from that point because a client may or may not identify with our own colouring or our own point of reference but they WILL be able to identify with the translation in essence and from there will be able to adapt that information to fit their own point of reference in their own daily life.

Sue


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Re: Strange bend of top planx of middle finger. Experts please?

Post  Lynn on Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:00 pm

Kiran.Katawa wrote: Marijn or Lynn or Patti - I hope i amn't violoating any copy right rules by quoting the text exactly or giving references from free stuff. Pls confirm.

No that's fine Kiran, you are saying where you got the quotes from, giving reference to your sources, no problem.

___________________________________________
Lynn
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Re: Strange bend of top planx of middle finger. Experts please?

Post  Kiran.Katawa on Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:04 pm

Hi Sue,
This discussion is giving lots of food for thought Smile.

Jumping to the points:
Sucom wrote:Hi Kiran
My own study of hand reading has centred round looking for the black and white, basic underlying essence of what hand features might suggest. And from my point of view, the essence of this feature is found in the words ‘alone time’.

If Saturn, the finger of balance, leans one way or another, it suggests that the individual’s point of reference is going to centre either around the active, conscious aspects of life (leaning towards the radial side of the hand) or the quiet, reflective, passive, unconscious aspect of life (leaning towards the percussive side of the hand) Or it may remain balanced somewhere between the two.

My point of reference will hold true for me but is not necessarily true for others. And here we come to the crux of the matter.
The concept of black and white is correct. So, it has to be objective and not colored subjective. In that case the following 3 options(picked out of this discussion) would stand out distinctly:
1. The Saturn finger bending towards Apollo - is influenced by Apollo or is running away from the Jupiter finger.
2. It is bending towards sub-conscious zone or running away from conscious zone
3. The finger is not straight

Now, all the possible perspectives can be given based on these 3 objective points and not only "Alone time". Infact, "Alone time" can be a colored perspective, if it is said the other way round as this: "The person has really been treated with double standards and hence he wants to spend time alone!"

Sucom wrote:
So we come back to Jenna’s words. If I dissect Jenna’s words, ‘indicates exposure to double standards’ is not a translation which is black and white in essence based on the areas of the hands. It is her ‘perspective’ of WHY a person might enjoy ‘alone time’.
I assume that your reference to "Jenna" is to "Jennifer".
As you also know Jennifer, Richar Unger and Johnny are highly experienced in this field.
In my opinion, I am sure that they have surely drawn the line between "black & white"(objective) and "own perspective"(subjective) when putting forward these conclusive remarks won't have picked up PERSPECTIVE remarks.

Sucom wrote:
My point of reference will hold true for me but is not necessarily true for others. And here we come to the crux of the matter. How much of the hand reader’s own personal point of reference moves forward from the black and white essence of a hand feature to build up the basis of their own interpretation? If a hand reader likes to be around people and spends a large proportion of their time centred round aspects found in the radial aspects of the hand, will they actually ‘fully’ comprehend an individual who prefers to spend time centred round aspects found in the passive area of the hand? And even if they are reasonably good at doing that, is it possible that they are still likely to ‘colour’ their translation by whatever degrees, to fit their own understanding of life and their own point of reference. For instance, if a hand reader’s own sense of responsibility is created by their own active pushing out into the world to create and build, will they necessarily understand an individual’s motive for ‘doing the right thing’ by listening inwardly and allowing a situation to follow through naturally without any sense of a personal ‘I’ or ‘me’ actively pushing? If this is not their own point of reference, it becomes obvious why they might look for ‘reasons’ why a person prefers quiet, ‘alone’ time.
Why not? I believe that any PROFESSIONAL hand analyst, with passage of time and experience is capable of putting himself in the neutral stand and not color the readings.
Any good hand reader is a good psychologist. He has a better understanding of his-self and so of others. Laws of attraction to similar kind of ppl, Barnum's effect in readings etc are all familiar experiences and won't mask and shudn't mask the readings.

However, with what you have written about your life style with bent Saturn finger and Lynn's personal comments, the thing which is coming out loud is: Any or all of the above 3 points I have mentioned might come into the picture. Looks like there are other balancing factors which are nullifying the effect!
To take the quoted example of yours, it can be told as: "Yes, I am highly disciplined about time and picky about ppl. And I am OK with it.". May be you're a very empathetic person with ring of solomon and watery hand. So, you have gracefully accepted yourself.
Lynn's might be: " I amn't highly time bound, but, retain my integrity always. And I am OK with it.". Maye be she is also possessing ring of solomon and also other features which indicate that she is also self-accepting.

or Is the nullifying effect really there? !!!

Point # 1 - Bent towards Apollo or away from Jupiter: Gives 2 types of info
Point # 2 - Bent towards Inner or outer relam: Gives 2 types of info
Point # 3 - Not straight: Gives 1 info.
In total, there should be 5 characters which should be distinctly present in the person, no matter what. But, if one of them has dominance then there be a way to identify which of them is as is the case with you and Lynn.
How and what those can be?!! or is that the case really!

scratch

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Re: Strange bend of top planx of middle finger. Experts please?

Post  Kiran.Katawa on Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:08 pm

Hi Lynn,

Lynn wrote:PS Kiran said
Last week I found a case, who had a severe bent and who said - "She
carries a feeling that 'coz of her, her parents got divorced or
quarreled" till now!!

Sue said
The case you have mentioned about the girl whose parents divorced: you
need to explain to me WHY you feel this is relevant with this feature
because I’m not seeing the correlation yet. She carries what feeling?
Can you explain more?

I understand what Kiran is saying - about people who feel guilty for things that aren't their fault! Kiran I think we need to look at other hand features also, does her apollo also bend to Saturn? what is her handshape, how many lines does she have on her hand, what is her digit ratio etc... Is she really feeling guilty about her parent's divorce or is she feeling that she did not live up to their expectations? Were their quarrels about her, did they quarrel because she did not conform to one parent's view? (e.g. did she refuse an arranged marriage or some such thing (refusing to conform).etc etc sorry for so many questions....
No. When i say GUILTY, it means - "I did something, which I shouldn't have done".
What you're saying is SHAME.
In my friend's case, her Apollo wasn't bending towards Saturn.

What she said is - "Her mom used to blame her saying what a disgraceful gal was she!. And my friend always felt that she shudn't have been born. And had she not born, her parents would have been separated. They were staying together just 'coz of her!".
And that guilt('coz, of her!!) she carries till now!

Thanks for answering the copy right qtns Lynn.

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Re: Strange bend of top planx of middle finger. Experts please?

Post  Patti on Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:47 pm

Hi Kiran,
It's interesting reading what you are writing about regarding how this person feels 'guilt' regarding a family situation.

I've been reading about clinodactyly (plus delta phalanx and Kirner deformity) in some of my medical books on hands.

The largest group of people who have clinodactyly and it's variations have inherited it via genetics as an autosomal dominant trait. It is also passed on in genes as a combination of factors involved in some syndromes, but most of the time it's just simply a formation that occurs in and of itself via the genetic instructions.

With it being a genetic thing - I would think we would be looking at the family constellation of interactions and behaviors. There are often role reversals or polarities that switch between generations.

Although the discussion is leaning Wink toward what it means because of a finger bending toward another finger and that finger's influence, there is also the fact that most of the time this leaning is caused by one side of the finger literally being shorter than the other. The leaning is a visual effect of this difference in length.

In this sense we are looking at a finger, here the middle (and a little the index) fingers being shorter on the ulnar sides than the radial sides.

sunny

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Re: Strange bend of top planx of middle finger. Experts please?

Post  Sucom on Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:55 pm

Lots of food for thought here; this discussion is thought provoking indeed.

@ Kiran - About the 3 options you mentioned:

“The Saturn finger bending towards Apollo – is influenced by Apollo or is running away from the Jupiter finger.”
Yes, good point, but if Jupiter is quite strong in the hand, then it is unlikely that Apollo is running away from it. So Jupiter would have to be assessed to draw any further conclusions.

“It is bending towards sub conscious zone or running away from the conscious zone”
Again, good point. My thoughts about this, though, are that it is very unlikely that all people will be exactly balanced. Some people thrive in the conscious area of life while others thrive in the sub conscious area of life. We each have our own path and we can’t all be everything. If someone ‘leans’ towards radial expression rather than ulna expression, it doesn’t necessarily imply that their choice in choosing one or the other means they are running away. They may be, but to reach any conclusion, we would have to look at other hand features to see if there is any negativity there.

“The finger is not straight”
I don’t have an answer for this right now – too many reasons for a finger which is not straight to ponder in this one post.

I am very aware that Richard and Johnny are both very experienced in this field. I recall Johnny’s posts in the hand reading cyber café quite some years ago and I very much admire the work Richard has done in this subject. Incidentally, I also very much like his spiritual views – I recall him posting some of his views years ago, again at the cybercafé, which I immediately identified with, so please don’t see my words as being too suggestive of criticism. However, I am not a person to blindly follow, no matter who has put forward the views. No single person knows everything there is to know. I like to question anything and everything. I’m very aware they will have more than enough experience to know the difference between black and white and most likely a particularly large number of shades of grey. I have never been the kind of person to say ‘Well, it must be true because so and so said it.’ I apologise if this appears a little controversial. Unfortunately I don’t know a lot about Jennifer but I’m sure she is equally good in her field. This, however, is not a reason for me to blindly follow. If I don’t identify with something, I simply have to question it.

Being self accepting is really important. My spiritual values tell me that you must first love yourself before you can love others. Loving yourself is never easy but it is the ultimate challenge.

Basically, it comes back to what Martijn first said about this: There is no way that a hand feature can be correctly analysed and translated without taking other factors into account. I very much agree with him on this. Other aspects of the hand allow the interpretation to be modified. I suppose this is one reason why I questioned Jennifer's interpretation. I don't actually believe she does suggest there is this one 'meaning' for this feature. I don't believe she would do that because, like us all here, she is obviously well aware of the importance of combining and modifying hand features. I haven't really seen her work so perhaps this is something I will rectify in the near future.

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