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V - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

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Re: V - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

Post  Patti on Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:10 am

Here's a little more radial for you!
Thanks for the *big* thumbs up! :-)

I've noticed in the male prints I've found containing the Suwon crease, they are of highly intelligent men. One even Mensa.



Thanks!

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Re: V - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

Post  Patti on Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:21 am

The authors give us another clue to the defining factors of the Suwon Crease or rather what it is not.

In the abstract they describe two categories of minor creases:

  • Minor palm creases are divided into two categories. In one category, minor palm creases are defined as palm creases narrower than twice of the epidermal groove width. The width of palm creases is in direct proportion to the width of epidermal groove of palmprints, and both widths are in inverse proportion to the amount of stamp ink smeared on the palm. Therefore, the epidermal groove of palmprints provides useful criteria for defining minor palm creases (Dar & Schmidt, 1976).


  • In the other category, minor palm creases are defined as palm creases apart from major palm creases, crossing major palm creases, or connecting to the major palm creases by the sharpened end. The minor palm creases definitely have a different size, number, and direction from major palm creases (Fig. 1).

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:9FVK7Ci-SrYJ:acb.xmlink.kr/search.php%3Fwhere%3Daview%26id%3D92114%26code%3D1049ACB%26vmode%3DFULL+%22suwon+crease%22&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

It appears that your female sample definitely has branches that are minor creases touching the heart line or Crease III in that they are connecting by the "sharpened end".

Does this make sense to you?
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Re: V - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:12 pm

Patti wrote:The authors give us another clue to the defining factors of the Suwon Crease or rather what it is not.

...

It appears that your female sample definitely has branches that are minor creases touching the heart line or Crease III in that they are connecting by the "sharpened end".

Does this make sense to you?

Sorry Patti, no this does not make sense - for basically at least two reasons:
1 - Most of the individual orange lines in my female-example do meet the 'width' criterium
2 - And as a combination these lines clearly form a likewise strong structure that is seen in the center of the heart line.

So, your point doesn't consider the 'context' of the lines involved!

Let me explain how I understand the authors' words...

What the authors describe for the 'minor lines' should only be applied to lines which clearly distinguish themselves from the major lines.

And I already pointed out to the similarities between my female example and my first male-example: which could be described as a confirm that is concerns a likewise type of line.

Patti, at the end one could argue that your point would formally be correct when one considers ONLY some of these yellow/organge lines IN ISOLATION from the other lines involved. But then your point could easily be described as 'out of context'.

But one really should not forget to recognize the SIGNIFICANCE of any line in any hand in the perspective of the rest of the hand.

lol! For otherwise, one could even use your arguments to say that a large part of the head line AND the life line... are too narrow to consider them as 'major lines', etc. But that would be a likewise 'out of context' conclusion.



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Re: V - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

Post  Patti on Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:42 pm

I think we have reached an impasse due to a mix of subjectivity and having only one sample from the research group.

#1) Yes I agree they meet the width criterium.

#2) It is a strong structure that matches the center of the heart line. (not a requirement in the article) BUT, I took into consideration their description under Fig. 8 on page 176: "First, minor palm creases are distinct in cases that major palm creases are not distinct, because minor palm creases may supplement the role of major palm creases." It would seem the branches and cascades that extend your sample's heart line to the edge fall into this category with the very fine head line. Note they are still calling them "minor palm creases" even though they are supplementary to the "role of major palm creases". The depth matching the heart line rather than the head line below would support these are supplementary minor creases.

They are pretty clear that a minor line is one that tapers or sharpens where it touches the major line. I cannot see a single branch that isn't pointed at the point it touches in your sample.

I do not believe at all that I am out of context. lol!

In their Sample of the Suwon crease Illustration D (page 171) It is clear that there are no tapering minor lines meeting to form II + III although we can see some minor lines as part of the pattern. In Illustration D, I think if the upper crease that curves downward was of the same quality as the crease below (with it's tapered connection) if wouldn't have qualified. From my understanding, it's not a combination of branches and connecting minor lines, but a clear crease melding or touching the heart line without a tapered point. That is what they show in their sample. Your male sample with the distinct creases would easily qualify.

Your samples with the chained branches that you are viewing as conforming to the standards of the Suwon are fairly commonly found. I passed over a fairly large number in my collection of prints. Hence our confusion early on in decerning meeting lines from splitting, branching lines. In my opinion, if the researchers would have included the qualifications of your female sample, they too would have found more females. If their criteria was more relaxed, they would have most likely had more than a .5% result out of 5,196 hands - see table 2.

Check out this image coincidentally uploaded at my forum during this discussion: http://postimage.org/image/1uq0a9a04/

nice thread

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Re: V - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:24 pm

Patti wrote:
#2) It is a strong structure that matches the center of the heart line. (not a requirement in the article) BUT, I took into consideration their description under Fig. 8 on page 176: "First, minor palm creases are distinct in cases that major palm creases are not distinct, because minor palm creases may supplement the role of major palm creases."

Patti, in your response to my 2nd argument you again take a quote out of context. Because fig.8 in the article shows a palm-condition where MANY MINOR CREASES have a width that is wider than 'two ridge lines'. The author's comment obviously relates to that specific phenomenon: when the MAJOR CREASES do not distinguish themselves from the MINOR CREASES.

But that palm-condition is not applicable to my female-example at all!! Banana waving

(Because NONE of the MINOR CREASES in my female-example show the characteristic being wider than 2 ridge lines... which makes your argument 'out-of-context': one can not describe this 'Suwon crease' as composed by MINOR LINES; by the way - thanks for confirming my no.1 argument!)




Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:59 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Re: V - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:01 pm

Patti wrote:I think we have reached an impasse due to a mix of subjectivity and having only one sample from the research group.

...

Check out this image coincidentally uploaded at my forum during this discussion: http://postimage.org/image/1uq0a9a04/

nice thread

"Mix of subjectivity" confused
Uhm... does that include your own input in this discussion??? lol!

(If not... thanks for your 'projection'!)


First of all, I already pointed out (before your 'wild-jump' into this discussion) that the researchers have not managed to present a clear definition of the 'Suwon crease'.

So, your quote above indicates that we at least have an agreement on that!


Second, I think so far... I hardly changed my position/arguments in this discussion - but what I observe is that at least the 'process' in this discussion is quite 'silly':

Actually, I have no problem at all to understand the basic concept of the researcher's discovery (+ the details in their article).

But Ithe quality of your arguments is not quite impressive...

First you jumped into this discussion by claiming that the researchers didn't discover anything(!). Then you started sharing your 'I-found-anotherone-collection' of prints (in response I have described why far most of those prints do not have ANY of the basic characteristic of the 'Suwon crease'). And now you continue to share 'out-of-context' attempts to disproof one of my examples... featured with multiple suggestions that my arguments + use of colours in the pictures is a 'mix of subjectivity'.

Oh...nooo!


Well Patti, I wonder... can you actually at least finally demonstrate your 'objectivity' by answering the following question:

Can you present me at least one single 'objective' argument why your new example is not simply a 'splitting heart line - with one transversal branch'?



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Re: V - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

Post  Patti on Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:41 pm

This is how we all learn Martijn, by sharing and discussing until we come to some conclusion or understanding.

I'll address my latest contribution once you respond to the comments on your female sample.

Thanks!
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Re: V - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:56 pm


(Patti, I already responded to your comments on my female-example... see my comment posted about an hour ago: 17:24)


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Re: V - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

Post  Patti on Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:27 pm

Yes, I saw your argument.

Please read the article again. Page 174.

"First, major and minor palm creases are strictly defined."
"To define the major palm creases more strictly, the remnant (the minor palm creases) must be defined simultaneously."

It describes two categories for minor lines. The text does not imply in any way what so ever that it is an either/or situation between the two categories - both categories were strictly used.

The Wild Child
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Re: V - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

Post  Patti on Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:30 pm

p.s.:
Where do you find the Identifying # to the posts, i.e. 17:24 ? It doesn't show on my page...?
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Re: V - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:14 pm

Patti wrote:Yes, I saw your argument.

Please read the article again. Page 174.

"First, major and minor palm creases are strictly defined."
"To define the major palm creases more strictly, the remnant (the minor palm creases) must be defined simultaneously."

It describes two categories for minor lines. The text does not imply in any way what so ever that it is an either/or situation between the two categories - both categories were strictly used.

The Wild Child

Sorry Patti, I am fully aware of those statements:

Yes, the researchers describe two categories for the minor lines - and yes, we can use them 'strictly'. Especially because the second category helps us discriminating a 'Suwon crease' from minor lines!

Page 174 (right column, 2nd alinea) says:

"... In the other category, minor palm creases are defined as palm creases apart from major palm creases, crossing major palm creases, or connecting to the major palm creases by the sharpened end. The minor palm creases definitely have a different (1) different size, (2) number, and (3) direction from major palm creases (Fig.1)."

In my female-example... both the (1) size + (2) direction of the line(s) involved do not 'strictly' meet the criterium on two aspects of this category 2 of the MINOR CREASE definition. And therefore it can be recognized as typical for a 'Suwon crease'!! (Just like in my first male-example).

Additionally, I think the 'number' category only refers to the fact that far most hands displays a much larger number of MINOR CREASES... because usually there are only 3 MAJOR CREASES.


(l hope you will now respond to my single question regarding your last photo-example!)


Thank you! My apologies, my 'time-reference' was not useful for you because we both are living in a different time-zone, etc. (I was only refering to the first of my two responses).

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Re: V - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

Post  Patti on Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:46 pm

We will have to agree to disagree at this point on your female sample and one of your male samples.

I think again the remarks about Fig. 8 explain the exceptions to when minor creases are more distinct than major creases. This applies to the branches with points in your female sample. Especially so because of her finer head line.

Another important point is made near the end of the article where they make this very important observation:

"Union of major palm creases is likely to be caused by powerful hand grip because of the following results. Closed, simian, Sydney and Suwon creases, in which major creases were united were frequently in males and the right palm, both of those are known to have powerful hand grip, and these results are consistent with other studies. (Davies 1966; Dar et al., 1977). To clarify this, is is necessary to analyze palm creases according to the power, handedness, and habit of hands." pg. 176

My best male example earlier is a martial artist as is another with strong clear creases that I didn't upload.

Your male example with the chained creases is most unlikely to have as strong of a hand grip as your second male. I doubt too, if your female has a strong hand grip - from looking at the fine chained lower creases.

Oddly, they word it like the powerful grip creates the crease results, when we know these are developed before the hand is gripping much more than an unbilical cord.

But, it could be that the minor creases form to close the gaps between the radial starting points to help the person get a grip. Very Happy

Regarding my last sample. When I zoom the image, I can see the creases are very finely overlapping and not merging. Perhaps the researchers would eliminate that sample, too. They don't mention overlapping. I've seen many simian and Sydney creases that have this fine overlapping.

The ironly of all this is that the researchers were putting together methods that allowed for objectivity in categorizing creases with strict definitions. rolling on the floor

I agree I misunderstood the thread in the beginning and added all types of images until I got the concept. I have continuously been willing to accept when I was mistaken and continue onward toward finding the facts. I was attempting to understand the concept from reading the early posts and looking at images. I was thrown off. Once I printed out the article and read it carefully, I added images that fit the descriptions of the researchers.

Since these researchers are identifying absolute ( Smile ) ways to categorized creases, I imagine that shortly we will see stricter requirements for Sydney creases and simians. Do you know of a good source for studying a collection of Sydney and simian creases?


Last edited by Patti on Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:02 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : grammar)
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Re: V - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

Post  Patti on Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:53 pm

p.s.:

The main feature that I believe eliminates your female is each of the creases that make contact is narrowing to a point. That one thing eliminates them regardless of matching the other requirements.

Otherwise, we could all choose to eliminate various aspects of the strict description to suit ourselves.

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Re: V - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

Post  Felicity Martin on Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:35 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:Hi Jeanette,

Initially, I have problems myself to identify the 'Suwon crease' in picture D - for the description of the researchers is a bit confusing since they are referring to 2 lines.

But in the picture below I have marked the 'Suwon crease' for you: it can be described as 'heart line' which completely transverse the palm (the combination of the orange + red line) - via a second line that can also be identified as a 'dissociated head line'.

NOTICE: Just like the Sydney line, is the 'Suwon crease' a line which transverses the palm - however when a heartline transverses the full palm with only one single line (without branches/splittings), then it should not be recongnized as a 'Suwon crease': then it is imply a completely transversing heart line - though there is not common used name for that variant.

I hope this now makes sense!? thinking




Hi Martjin,

thanks for the clarification of the Suwon line, very useful, though I feel the heart line completely transversing the palm would be more worthy of a classification.
I am confused though at the example used in the research as I see this line as a variant head line which crosses rather than joins the heart line to end near the lines of affection and would have possibly interpreted this as someone who had a profound loss, perhaps the loss of a parent as a child, and who then fears future losses in one's life. But as we have no idea of the sample hands history we can not clarify this.

Cheers Felicity
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Re: V - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

Post  Patti on Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:19 am

In "Anthropology of Crease Morphogenesis" (R. S. Bali) page 139 Fig. 9.8 from Malvalwala (1971) there is a chart labeled "Types of tranverse flexion creases". Item #5 is similar to the Suwon crease. There are other very similar crease patterns found in the charts on the preceding pages. It is listed as a simian variant.

On page 178 (see below) of the same book there is a palm print (very similar to my most recently posted hand image) They named it "Double True II" This implies they are labeling the higher crease as II as well as the lower crease.



In "Dermatoglyphics in Medical Disorders" (Schaumann & Alter) Page 109 Fig. 5.5 includes variations of the single transverse crease. Item A is similar to the Suwon crease.

In their definition of the Sydney line they describe how Purvis-Smith (1972) loosely allowed any crease reaching extending toward the ulnar side of the hand and past the midline axis of the 5th finger to be a Sydney line. Later this definition was more strictly modified by Wertelecki (etal 1973) to be "labeled as an elongated transverse palmar flexion crease as a Sydney line only if it reached the ulnar margin of the palm. If the line failed to reach the ulnar margin even by a few millimeters, they referred to the configuration as an aberrant Sydney line." (page 110)

This is not meant to go off topic to the Sydney line from the Suwon crease, but in that it appears that the Suwon crease and the Sydney are 'cousins' or formed by the same two creases II + III with different Accessories in II and III.

Martijn, I would call your female sample an aberrant Suwon crease. Would you agree to that? I'd even say my last sample is too.

I think we have a total of 3 true Suwons. Your male with the clear creases and my male and female samples that I presented previously.



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Re: V - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

Post  Patti on Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:21 am

Hi Felicity!! I'm happy to see you've joined the discussion.
I too was wondering about "meaning". I was thinking more about people with strong hands, their intelligence and emotions.

In my area of the world branches from the heart line aiming downward to the headline like these and like Martijn's samples I have often found these to relate to some early disappointment where the person realized they had to rely on themselves or at the least be caution of trusting.
wave
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Re: V - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

Post  Patti on Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:02 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:Thanks for your input Patti & your responses Martijn. Like Patti I am also having some difficulty in defining this line / noticing it on hands. specifically - seeing the difference between split heartline where one branch connects to life/headline, and the true suwon - extra headline that connects to heartline. scratch

eg the difference between this
http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=23&u=15498700

and this
http://acb.xmlink.kr/ArticleImage/1049ACB/acb-43-169-g003-l.jpg
Hi Lynn,

The basic difference between both examples can be recognized by considering the 'width' of the lines!

Again, one really NEEDS to consider the structure of the lines involved - and 'width' is of course a major aspect of the structure..


Lynn, can you confirm the following:

Do you recognize that in the Korean example the width of the 'Suwon crease' is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from the heart line?

SUWON CREASE:



If you recognize that... then it is actually quite easy to notice that in Patti's example both branches of the heart line sort of have the same width, while the head line has a larger 'width'!

NOT A SUWON CREASE:


Can you confirm the difference between these 2 examples?

(So in these two cases the 'width' of the lines shows the difference - but in other cases it might be necessary to consider other aspects of the STRUCTURE of the lines involved)

wave

Martijn,
Would you say the same still in response to Lynn's question? As in comparing the width of these creases to the head line rather than to the dermatoglyphics? Banana waving

I would eliminate this particular sample I presented as not following the strict guidelines. Not because of the width of the most distal crease (which appears wider than 2X a ridge width), but because the end is tapered where it meets the heart line or III. Other than that it would qualify. Another Aberrant Suwon!
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Re: V - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

Post  Lynn on Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:41 am

Phew that took some reading! Page 7 already!! this one could run & run! Very Happy
I love these "thinking out loud till I've understood it" discussions, reminds me of 'tented arch' discussion on Sue's forum, and hand developement on the old cybercafe! Wink

I'm still not sure I've understood the criteria of this line correctly. Embarassed
In the example from the study, II & III curves down to meet accessory II (NB. tho I still regard accessory II as the main headline, and the bit that joins heartline as the accessory)
but in Martijn's first example on Page1, the Suwon does not curve down to headline.
So, risking being shot down in flames..... are these Suwon lines? (I think right hand could be, but on LH can't be sure what's going on where fate line meets heartline - is it a Suwon or a complete transverse heartline with "ambitious" fate line?)






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Re: V - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

Post  Patti on Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:53 am

wave
Hi Lynn!!!
Thanks for joining back into this *hot* discussion!!

Yes, I think your right hand sample does fit the description of a Suwon perfectly (in my opinion)

The left hand is interesting as the head line is fragmented and doesn't start close enough to the radial edge of the palm. (the article refers to a common starting point and this head line doesn't start at that, as they say, "constant" starting point.

sunny
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Re: V - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

Post  Lynn on Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:05 am

Felicity & Patti, re interpretation of this line. I guess we are learning that so far it seems to be on the hands of very intelligent people (the prints I posted are from a very clever, well educated guy, who educates other well-educated people ;-)). But otherwise I don't find anything that gives us any hint at possible interpretation, so 'business as usual' for us handreaders in that regard I guess. (I would still read it as a forked heartline)

From another thread http://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/iiia-modern-palmistry-general-topics-questions-f4/can-partial-simian-line-change-t370.htm#2986 Felicity said

Felicity Martin wrote:I have been actively reading the Suwon Crease and have found it very interesting but hate the way that it has been 'classified' and named as a form of ownership by the scientific community and disregarding what has been observed for generations of palmists who recognised certain associated outcomes with it and the many variants of these outcomes, depending on behavioral, humanistic etc adaptation to what may be a now named and classified neuropsychological manifestation. Though I accept this need for classification as demonstrated by the Sydney line and the Simian line, but do rankle a bit at the dispersions cast upon those who have, for so long, looked at the hand as more the sum of the whole rather than as a collection of parts.

I mean, do I, before others, name the small transverse line that runs from the distal side of the lower sub-thenar mount, the Hallett line, and maybe win accolades because it has a defined place and character and indicates in many cases a tendency to lower back problems?
Felicity

The scientists always do this 'classification & ownership'. eg the Sydney line. I understand what you're saying Felicity. I find some of the scientific studies very limited or tunnel visioned, but it's a start. I am happy that scientists are taking an interest in hands. eg some of the 2D:4D ratio stuff confirms what palmists have been saying for years, so gives us some credibility in science.
If you can arrange a study that stands up in science, then I think you can take credit for the "Hallet line" Felicity! (remember folks,we heard it here first!! hand dance ) Never seen this line described, not heard of line in that area = back problems (bearing in mind that a high % of the population seem to have lower back problems). Subject for a new topic, please tell us more!






Last edited by Lynn on Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:22 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: V - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

Post  Lynn on Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:12 am

Patti wrote: wave
Hi Lynn!!!
Thanks for joining back into this *hot* discussion!!

Yes, I think your right hand sample does fit the description of a Suwon perfectly (in my opinion)

The left hand is interesting as the head line is fragmented and doesn't start close enough to the radial edge of the palm. (the article refers to a common starting point and this head line doesn't start at that, as they say, "constant" starting point.

sunny

Thanks for feedback Patti. I briefly read some of the article when Martijn first posted it, but didn't digest it, so wasn't aware of the 'common starting point' and didn't take into consideration that the start of his main headline is missing on LH.

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Re: V - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

Post  Patti on Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:14 am

In "Dermatoglyphics, Science in Transition" (Plato, Garruto & Schaumann 1991)(page 231) they make reference to this crease.

"On occasion, one encounters an erroneous classification of a "simian" crease on a palm with either the proximal or the distal crease extending across the whole width of the palm in the presence of the other crease. These variations have been illustrated by Leiber*. One of them, the extension of the proximal transverse crease to the ulnar margin of the palm, with persisting distal transverse crease, is also known as a Sydney line and should definitely not be confused with the single transverse crease."

Obviously the Korean researchers missed Leiber's illustrations and overlooked Plato's books as well. This crease was identified 50 years ago and mentioned in this book 20 years ago!

*Leiber B.: Zur sytematik und klinischen Bedeutung des menschlichen Handfurchenbildes. Z Menschl Vererb Konstitutional 35:205-232, 1960 (okay, I now see why the Koreans may have missed Leiber's report)
Is this German, Swedish?
Can someone translate?

<edit> The quote above in purple is from the above mentioned book, but I forgot to mention that this chapter is called "Flexion Creases" and is written by S. Kimura and B. Schaumann.


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Re: V - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

Post  Lynn on Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:18 am

hi Patti, I am not sure they (in your above post) are describing the same thing as the Suwon? Aren't they talking about sydney line + (some form of )heart line, OR straight heartline that extends fully across the hand with (some form of) head line??


Last edited by Lynn on Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:26 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : clarification)

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Re: V - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

Post  Felicity Martin on Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:18 am

Oh dear, my understanding after a clarification from Martjin was it was when the additional headline runs and joins the heart line...
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Re: V - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

Post  Lynn on Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:23 am

Felicity Martin wrote:Oh dear, my understanding after a clarification from Martjin was it was when the additional headline runs and joins the heart line...
Felicity
yes, isn't it?

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