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6 Hand signs for Extraversion / Introversion!

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Re: 6 Hand signs for Extraversion / Introversion!

Post  Kiran.Katawa on Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:07 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Kiran.Katawa wrote:
Hi Martijn, The first part is clear.
But, why is "joining of headline and lifeline"is considered on the extraversion side?

The 8th would have been accurate if it was:
high placed + disconnected = extraversion
low placed + connected = introversion

But, currently it is:
high placed + connected = extraversion
low placed + disconnected = introversion

Ofcourse, the current combination does cause extraversion; But, the combination I have given would place the extraversion markers one side and would have enhanced the indication ability.

Kiran, I am aware that some hand reading authors have associated a 'head line separated from the life line' with Extraversion (e.g. I have mentioned Johnny Fincham as one of those authors in my article) - but I have no idea where this theory origins from.

Regarding my study:

The 'head line separated from the life line' is much more often present in the hands of the INTROVERTS (43% = 6 out of 14 introverts have this characteristic in both hands) than the EXTRAVERTS (5% = 1 out 20 extraverts have this characteristic in both hands).

I think these results clearly show that the (former) theory saying that a 'separated head line' is an indication for extraversion... is simply not correct at all. Because the statistics in my study clearly present contradictive evidence. And I could add that nobody ever managed to present any evidence supporting the (former) theory.


By the way, I can also report that the COMBINATION of a 'low positioned thenar crease' and 'head line separated from the life line' is presented in only 1 hand of one of the 20 EXTRAVERTS (while this combination is presented in 7 hands of the 14 INTROVERTS). I hope this statistical details explain why the 'weight' of point 8 in my model is actually relativeley high!

Does this now make sense?
Okay. Thank you Martijn.
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Re: 6 Hand signs for Extraversion / Introversion!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:38 pm

Kiran.Katawa wrote:
Okay. Thank you Martijn.

Kiran, I have been thinking about your question/comment a little bit more ... and as an additional thought, maybe the picture below kind of explains why it is not surprizing to see that 'independent thinking' appears to correlate with 'introversion' (in the hand).

INdependent
INtroversion

(The words themselves also show a connection)


"Seeking independence (via act or thought) can by principle be recognized as a typical expression for the need/nature of an introvert"


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Re: 6 Hand signs for Extraversion / Introversion!

Post  Kiran.Katawa on Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:00 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Kiran.Katawa wrote:
Okay. Thank you Martijn.

Kiran, I have been thinking about your question/comment a little bit more ... and as an additional thought, maybe the picture below kind of explains why it is not surprizing to see that 'independent thinking' appears to correlate with 'introversion' (in the hand).

INdependent
INtroversion

(The words themselves also show a connection)


"Seeking independence (via act or thought) can by principle be recognized as a typical expression for the need/nature of an introvert"

Martijn, what I wanted to know is: how did you take a rating on the individual parameters?
'coz, in the set of cases, where the separation of headline is studied for, there might be other factors which influenced them from being introvert and not exactly this marker.

For those, where the head and life line are separated, it can be said that, since, they mingle with the group, they may want to be independent of the group! And since, they are with group very much, they are mostly extraverts and introverts.

The rest of the points, other than 8, are very logical, particularly the Moon mount and life line. But, this separation point is not convincing.
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Re: 6 Hand signs for Extraversion / Introversion!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:00 pm

Kiran.Katawa wrote:
Martijn, what I wanted to know is: how did you take a rating on the individual parameters?
'coz, in the set of cases, where the separation of headline is studied for, there might be other factors which influenced them from being introvert and not exactly this marker.

For those, where the head and life line are separated, it can be said that, since, they mingle with the group, they may want to be independent of the group! And since, they are with group very much, they are mostly extraverts and introverts.

The rest of the points, other than 8, are very logical, particularly the Moon mount and life line. But, this separation point is not convincing.

Hi Kiran,

To understand this issue more properly, I think it is also important to be aware that only a minority of people have the head line seperated from the life line. Seeking for independency by those people could by principle make sense... because they are a minority.

But I think/observe that it is quite impossible to argue that 'independent thinking' is a typical feature of Extraversion.

And I also observe that your 'reasong' appears to include an inconsistancy... because I think that when people 'mingle with the group', there is no (sensible) reason to assume that they do that for seeking independency.


Now, regarding your first point... yes, I fully understand that you are thinking about the option/possibility that 'hand features' can be neutralized by other hand features. Don't worry... I have considered that option as well.

But such effects become quite unlikely regarding the aspect of the headline/lifeline connection, because that would implicate here that such an effect would have to be found in the majority of the introverts (because 8 out of 14 introverts have a disconnected head line in at least one hand)... AND probably also the majority of the extraverts (because 12 out of 20 extraverts do not have a disconnected head line in any of their hands). And thus that is quite unlikely!

So, I understand your direction of thought... but I think such neutralizing-effects can by principle only be applied to at most a relatively small group of subjects in the studied group.

And actually, I could use YOUR argument ... to argue here likewisely that all evidence points out that this neutralizing-effect should be applied to the extraverts that have a disconnected head line - and not the introverts!

Again, 'independent thinking'... is from a fundamental point of view much more likely a typical introvert trait!

So, I think my research finding actually makes sense in the perspective of the fact that in the field of palmistry the disconnected head line is associated with independent thinking - and I have never seen anyone arguing against it.


Finally, I have myself a clearly disconnected head line in my right hand only (in my left hand it is connected) and I am an introvert my self. Additionally I could add that the only 'extravert' in my family is my brother... who has no disconnected head line in any of his hands at all - while my mother and sister do have it in one of their hands... and both are introverts as well.

So, in my family I see (strong) confirming evidence for my research finding regarding that a disconnected head line provides a clue for 'introversion'.

Kiran, I am looking forward to hear your thoughts regarding these observations.

(By the way, nice to see that most of the other points do make sense for you)

flower


PS. Again... the results of my study indicate that the starting point of the life line requires to be considered as well in order to get the most accurate result.

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Re: 6 Hand signs for Extraversion / Introversion!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:00 pm

Lynn wrote:hi kiwi, I haven't added up my score, still studying the picture & info.
Broad palms surprises me - broad palm + short fingers = earth handshape, which I'd expect more likely to be introverts.

Hi Lynn,

I think my findings regarding hand shape (long fingers + narrow palm = introversion) can probably best be understood in the perspective of Sheldon's (controversial) somatotypes - see:

- http://www.innerexplorations.com/catpsy/t1c5.htm (picture below is take from this source)

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatotype_and_constitutional_psychology#References (presents Sheldon's summary of personality traits for each of his three basic types)

- And.... there is also a clear connection with Marfan syndrome: those people are known to tend to develop an introverted personality; today I have described a few more details in the Marfan syndrome topic: http://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t843p15-marfan-syndrome-the-language-of-the-hands#23301

(Lynn, I realize that Sheldon's theory is usually described as 'outdated', but the wikipedia page mentions that some 'modern scientists' today still have not dismissed it)

Food for thought...?

wave



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Re: 6 Hand signs for Extraversion / Introversion!

Post  Kiran.Katawa on Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:28 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Hi Kiran,

And I also observe that your 'reasong' appears to include an inconsistancy... because I think that when people 'mingle with the group', there is no (sensible) reason to assume that they do that for seeking independency.

But such effects become quite unlikely regarding the aspect of the headline/lifeline connection, because that would implicate here that such an effect would have to be found in the majority of the introverts (because 8 out of 14 introverts have a disconnected head line in at least one hand)... AND probably also the majority of the extraverts (because 12 out of 20 extraverts do not have a disconnected head line in any of their hands). And thus that is quite unlikely!

So, I understand your direction of thought... but I think such neutralizing-effects can by principle only be applied to at most a relatively small group of subjects in the studied group.

And actually, I could use YOUR argument ... to argue here likewisely that all evidence points out that this neutralizing-effect should be applied to the extraverts that have a disconnected head line - and not the introverts!

Again, 'independent thinking'... is from a fundamental point of view much more likely a typical introvert trait!

So, I think my research finding actually makes sense in the perspective of the fact that in the field of palmistry the disconnected head line is associated with independent thinking - and I have never seen anyone arguing against it.


Kiran, I am looking forward to hear your thoughts regarding these observations.

(By the way, nice to see that most of the other points do make sense for you)

flower


PS. Again... the results of my study indicate that the starting point of the life line requires to be considered as well in order to get the most accurate result.
Hi Martijn, I wrote those lines, to bring up the point that trying to co-relate INtrovert/INdependent by the formation of words will not deduct anything here. Like you have put it, yes - "a person who doesn't want to be in the group can be an introvert and independent" does also make sense. If we take up the discussion likewise, it is possible to put the points on both the sides. So, we can keep this aside, IMO.

Before I go thru the set of handprints I have, on this, I would like to know 1 more thing: Why are you associating only HIGH SET life line for this? why not a LOW SET life line? The discussion we have had so far, is regarding the connection/disconnection of headline.

We have following combinations now:
HS life line + connected head line = extravert
HS life line + disconnected head line = introvert
LS life line + connected head line = ?, what is it here?
LS life line + disconnected head line =?, what is it here?

* HS - High set; * LS - Low set.

Since HS life line is considered, irrespective of being connected/disconnected, the headline is automatically high set. Are you giving any importance to this?
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Re: 6 Hand signs for Extraversion / Introversion!

Post  Kiran.Katawa on Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:41 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:hi kiwi, I haven't added up my score, still studying the picture & info.
Broad palms surprises me - broad palm + short fingers = earth handshape, which I'd expect more likely to be introverts.

Hi Lynn,
broad palm - more into the tangible world
short fingers - less thinking
so, on what factors are you associating this combination with introversion?
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Re: 6 Hand signs for Extraversion / Introversion!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:30 am

Kiran.Katawa wrote:
Hi Martijn, I wrote those lines, to bring up the point that trying to co-relate INtrovert/INdependent by the formation of words will not deduct anything here. Like you have put it, yes - "a person who doesn't want to be in the group can be an introvert and independent" does also make sense. If we take up the discussion likewise, it is possible to put the points on both the sides. So, we can keep this aside, IMO.

Before I go thru the set of handprints I have, on this, I would like to know 1 more thing: Why are you associating only HIGH SET life line for this? why not a LOW SET life line? The discussion we have had so far, is regarding the connection/disconnection of headline.

We have following combinations now:
HS life line + connected head line = extravert
HS life line + disconnected head line = introvert
LS life line + connected head line = ?, what is it here?
LS life line + disconnected head line =?, what is it here?

* HS - High set; * LS - Low set.

Since HS life line is considered, irrespective of being connected/disconnected, the headline is automatically high set. Are you giving any importance to this?

Hi Kiran,

Yes, we could summarize hand sign no.8 as follows:

HS life line + connected head line = extravert
LS life line + disconnected head line = introvert

(PS. See the little mistakes in your writiing above?)


Additionally, I think you've presented a very interesting question at the bottom of your post:

"Since HS life line is considered, irrespective of being connected/disconnected, the headline is automatically high set. Are you giving any importance to this?"

My answer is that the exact position of the head line itself might not me very important (to me it appears not important so far, but I perceive a small potential possibility that it plays a role as well).

However, regarding the starting point of the life line: I think it is quite easy to understand the significance in the perspective of hand sign no.9; because if hand sign 9 makes sense to you... then the aspect of the low (introvert) or high (extravert) position of the life line could/should make sense as well:

For, the combination of a 'narrow path' of the life line and a 'low positioned' starting point of the life line... both signal a situation where the life line is embracing only a relatively small part of the palm.

And from a theoretical point of view: since the life line is associated with 'vitality', one can argue that Introversion results from a low "expression" of 'vitality'.

I think this is also clearly illustrated by one of the 6 aspects of the dimension Extraversion in the NEO PI-R questionnaire: the so-called 'activity' aspect.

(By the way, in the NEO PI-R questionnaire the dimension Extraversion is defined with the 6 sub-dimensions: Activity - Assertiveness - Excitement Seeking - Gregariousness - Positive Emotions - Warmth)


I hope this now all makes sense for you as well, Kiran.
Have I answered your questions?


Thanks!

PS. Also please be aware, that my study points out that it requires an analysis of at multiple dimensions of the hand to 'read' from a hand whether an individual is an 'extravert' and 'introvert' (or somewhere in between). And this implicates that one sign on it's own is by principle not much more than anything but meaningless!

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Re: 6 Hand signs for Extraversion / Introversion!

Post  Kiran.Katawa on Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:24 am

Hi Martijn,
Yes, I got that mistake.

HS life line + connected head line = extravert
LS life line + disconnected head line = introvert

Its like headline is at one position(horizontally) and also at high position.
Life line either pulls up/resides down.And in doing so, either gets connected to headline or disconnected from it.

So, its high setting/low setting of life line that matters and not the connection/disconnection with the headline.
If its connection or disconnection with headline then, the following combinations should also be considered:


HS life line + disconnected head line = ?
LS life line + connected head line = ?

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Re: 6 Hand signs for Extraversion / Introversion!

Post  Lynn on Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:05 am

Kiran.Katawa wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:hi kiwi, I haven't added up my score, still studying the picture & info.
Broad palms surprises me - broad palm + short fingers = earth handshape, which I'd expect more likely to be introverts.
Hi Lynn,
broad palm - more into the tangible world
short fingers - less thinking
so, on what factors are you associating this combination with introversion?

hi Kiran, I was thinking of the nature of many people with earth handshape (and other earthy characteristics on the hand). eg, often spend time alone, reserved etc.
I guess my comment is irrelevant anyway as there were no earth hand shapes in this study. Thanks for asking the questions you have asked about this study, I was thinking some of the same questions.
Thanks for your replies Martijn. I'd be interested to see a bigger study that also involved men and people with an average or lower than average IQ, rather than just women with higher than average IQ. Then we'd get a more representative sample of the general population.

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Re: 6 Hand signs for Extraversion / Introversion!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:15 pm

Kiran.Katawa wrote:Hi Martijn,
Yes, I got that mistake.

HS life line + connected head line = extravert
LS life line + disconnected head line = introvert

Its like headline is at one position(horizontally) and also at high position.
Life line either pulls up/resides down.And in doing so, either gets connected to headline or disconnected from it.

So, its high setting/low setting of life line that matters and not the connection/disconnection with the headline.
If its connection or disconnection with headline then, the following combinations should also be considered:


HS life line + disconnected head line = ?
LS life line + connected head line = ?


No, Kiran. The connection/disconnection with the head lline matters as well: I already described the statistics, I have described how it's significance gets confirmed in my family as well, and I have also explained it also from a fundamental point of view (by pointing out that 'independend thinking' is much more likely a characteristic that correlates with introversion ... not extraversion).

So, I could have described it as an independent factor...but I decided not to do that for various reasons - e.g. because at the end combining features becomes essential anyway.

I hope this makes sense now.

By the way, don't worry... next month I will start presenting more detailed materials, including the statistics for each of the 13 hand signs in the female population + smaller male population.


PS. Regarding your questions/combinations:

HS life line + disconnected head line = ?
LS life line + connected head line = ?

Regarding Extraversion I would simply prefer to say that those combinations 'neutralize' each other.

(Again, especially from a fundamental psychological point of view this would make sense in the perspective of my observation/argument that 'independent thinking' is much more likely seen in an introvert than in an extravert)


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 6 Hand signs for Extraversion / Introversion!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:06 pm

Lynn wrote:
hi Kiran, I was thinking of the nature of many people with earth handshape (and other earthy characteristics on the hand). eg, often spend time alone, reserved etc.
I guess my comment is irrelevant anyway as there were no earth hand shapes in this study. Thanks for asking the questions you have asked about this study, I was thinking some of the same questions.
Thanks for your replies Martijn. I'd be interested to see a bigger study that also involved men and people with an average or lower than average IQ, rather than just women with higher than average IQ. Then we'd get a more representative sample of the general population.

Lynn, by principle from a technical point of view it is by principle better to study a homogenous population - to avoid that factors like sexe, ethnicity influence the results.

I ask for your consideration regarding this point because we know that finger lengths, major palmar creases & dermatoglyphics include male-female differences. For this reason I think it is for example very hard to compare the hand shape of a male with the hand shape of a female... especially since the exact differences have never been mapped by the detail.

This 'problem' became the reason why I started my study focussing on this (homogenous) female sample.

But I will work on mapping the male-female differences regarding hand shape more precisely in the future - because this Extraversion study shows that my approach to map hand shape via 3 ratios (FL/PL | FL/PB | PL/PB) is promissing to become valuable. E.g. my study indicates that the finger length to palm length (FL/PL) plays no role at all in identifying Extraversion... but the other 2 hand shape ratios do matter!


Next month I will present a new 'multi-perspective palm reading' article on Extraversion where I will share the statistical details for this female population... plus the statistics for a small male population as well.

And then I will also present more specific guidelines for how to COMBINE the hand signs - where finding hand signs in multiple perspectives will become essential.

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Re: 6 Hand signs for Extraversion / Introversion!

Post  Parender on Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:39 pm

Hi Martijn,

I agree with you that “Everybody Has Some Introversion and Some Extroversion Traits”. And I add that it depends on the circumstances. Environment is greater than man. There can no one who is fully extroverted or fully introverted as there is neither pure happiness nor misery.

You can say after having used all the keys in complete hand analysis that you are ‘more inclined to be extroverted’ or introverted.
Extrovert is the ‘Psychology’ of a person who is concerned more with practical realities than with inner thoughts and feelings, being concerned with the social and physical environment; then DEEPER, STRAIGHTER head line that proceeds towards mount of Mars is expected comparing with the heart line. For all this purposes sufficient courage and resistance is needed and that will be supplied by this mount especially if the hand has a STRONGER wire to carry the current.

Introvert is the ‘Psychology’ of persons who tend to shrink from social contacts and become preoccupied with their own thoughts, turn inside, the contemplation of their own thoughts and desires and conducts, then here DEEPER HEART LINES are expected than headlines and have slopes downside towards mount of Moon.

To simplify the assessment whether a person is extrovert, the following points should be considered; a broad hand with preferably spatulate nails, whorl patterns on finger tips, especially on little finger, the ‘course’ of head line and, a preferable ‘slightly’ joined head-life lines. These symptoms are sufficient to reveal easily the extrovert trend or such soul psychology of a person. Much detail may complicate the things. Other symptoms in this regard are secondary in this regard such as a curved heart line, longer and deeper life line which runs around the mount of Venus and not on it, longer ring finger.

Besides that emotions change of course. It is a continue process. So, you can tell about present trend only. No guarantee for the future. A 'balanced' personality has a well proportioned lines and hand formation who can be extrovert and introvert as time required. We all know very well that Lines change according to our thinking, attitudes and acts and experiences. Soul psychology is deciphered by fingertip patterns so ulnar or radial loops will definitely tell their own stories.

Parender Sethi


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Re: 6 Hand signs for Extraversion / Introversion!

Post  Kiran.Katawa on Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:11 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Kiran.Katawa wrote:Hi Martijn,
Yes, I got that mistake.

HS life line + connected head line = extravert
LS life line + disconnected head line = introvert

Its like headline is at one position(horizontally) and also at high position.
Life line either pulls up/resides down.And in doing so, either gets connected to headline or disconnected from it.

So, its high setting/low setting of life line that matters and not the connection/disconnection with the headline.
If its connection or disconnection with headline then, the following combinations should also be considered:


HS life line + disconnected head line = ?
LS life line + connected head line = ?


No, Kiran. The connection/disconnection with the head lline matters as well: I already described the statistics, I have described how it's significance gets confirmed in my family as well, and I have also explained it also from a fundamental point of view (by pointing out that 'independend thinking' is much more likely a characteristic that correlates with introversion ... not extraversion).

So, I could have described it as an independent factor...but I decided not to do that for various reasons - e.g. because at the end combining features becomes essential anyway.

I hope this makes sense now.

By the way, don't worry... next month I will start presenting more detailed materials, including the statistics for each of the 13 hand signs in the female population + smaller male population.


PS. Regarding your questions/combinations:

HS life line + disconnected head line = ?
LS life line + connected head line = ?

Regarding Extraversion I would simply prefer to say that those combinations 'neutralize' each other.

(Again, especially from a fundamental psychological point of view this would make sense in the perspective of my observation/argument that 'independent thinking' is much more likely seen in an introvert than in an extravert)
Okay fine Martijn. The explanations are not convincing. I'll look forward for more details. Thank you.
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Re: 6 Hand signs for Extraversion / Introversion!

Post  kiwihands on Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:56 am

Kiran.Katawa wrote:


Hi Martijn, I wrote those lines, to bring up the point that trying to co-relate INtrovert/INdependent by the formation of words will not deduct anything here.

As a trained linguist I appreciate Kiran drawing attention to this. I didn't want to be a stickler, but the two prefixes have nothing to do with each other. Only the IN in independent is really the prefix "in-", from Latin in- (not), from Indo-European root ne. The IN in introvert is actually the prefix "intro-", from Latin intra- (within), from Indo-European root en.

And yes, my hands are somewhere on this forum ... not quite sure when I posted them, last year some time.

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Re: 6 Hand signs for Extraversion / Introversion!

Post  Lynn on Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:57 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:I'd be interested to see a bigger study that also involved men and people with an average or lower than average IQ, rather than just women with higher than average IQ. Then we'd get a more representative sample of the general population.

Lynn, by principle from a technical point of view it is by principle better to study a homogenous population - to avoid that factors like sexe, ethnicity influence the results.

I ask for your consideration regarding this point because we know that finger lengths, major palmar creases & dermatoglyphics include male-female differences. For this reason I think it is for example very hard to compare the hand shape of a male with the hand shape of a female... especially since the exact differences have never been mapped by the detail.

This 'problem' became the reason why I started my study focussing on this (homogenous) female sample.

But I will work on mapping the male-female differences regarding hand shape more precisely in the future - because this Extraversion study shows that my approach to map hand shape via 3 ratios (FL/PL | FL/PB | PL/PB) is promissing to become valuable. E.g. my study indicates that the finger length to palm length (FL/PL) plays no role at all in identifying Extraversion... but the other 2 hand shape ratios do matter!

Next month I will present a new 'multi-perspective palm reading' article on Extraversion where I will share the statistical details for this female population... plus the statistics for a small male population as well.

And then I will also present more specific guidelines for how to COMBINE the hand signs - where finding hand signs in multiple perspectives will become essential.

OK I understand what you are saying about studying a homogeneous population. So I'll rephrase my earlier post to say: I'd be interested to see a similar study on men's hands.
Actually I think your first post here is a bit misleading, because it says "This article presents a brand new model for recognizing the hand of an 'extravert'" but you didn't mention the specific factor that it only applies to women with higher than average IQ. (it is mentioned at the end of the article, but not on the announcement at this board).

In reply to a previous post, yes I remember Sheldon's somatotypes, people used to refer to them a lot years ago but you don't hear much about them now.

I didn't understand your reply to Kiran
HS life line + disconnected head line = ?
LS life line + connected head line = ?

Regarding Extraversion I would simply prefer to say that those combinations 'neutralize' each other.
why/how do they neutralise each other?

anyway I look forward to the further details next month.

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Re: 6 Hand signs for Extraversion / Introversion!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:28 am

kiwihands wrote:
Kiran.Katawa wrote:


Hi Martijn, I wrote those lines, to bring up the point that trying to co-relate INtrovert/INdependent by the formation of words will not deduct anything here.

As a trained linguist I appreciate Kiran drawing attention to this. I didn't want to be a stickler, but the two prefixes have nothing to do with each other. Only the IN in independent is really the prefix "in-", from Latin in- (not), from Indo-European root ne. The IN in introvert is actually the prefix "intro-", from Latin intra- (within), from Indo-European root en.

And yes, my hands are somewhere on this forum ... not quite sure when I posted them, last year some time.

wave

Hi Kiwihands,

I get your point from a pure linguistic point of view.

However, in the field of psychology correlations have been observed between 'independent minds' and the tendency to show 'introvert' behavior. This article about 'the independent mind' describes that 'field independents' tend to "have a tendency to be introverted", while 'field dependends' tend to "Have a tendency to be extraverted":
http://www.trans4mind.com/mind-development/field-independence.html




(The words 'introvert' & 'independent' both can associated with a tendency of a person to focuss inward and think/act starting from 'I' (me); so I think from a psychological point of view that it is quite obvious that the letters 'in-' in both words do relate to the meaning of both words!

Afterall, in both words the letters 'in-' are used as a PROPOSITION - which is defined to refers to something that is or appears to be enclosed or surrounded by something else... in this case that something is the 'I' (the 'me').

Makes sense now?

wave

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Re: 6 Hand signs for Extraversion / Introversion!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:52 am

Kiran.Katawa wrote:
Okay fine Martijn. The explanations are not convincing. I'll look forward for more details. Thank you.

Okay Kiran, I understand that you look forward to more research details (next month).


PS. By the way, in my response to Kiwihands I have shared more details describing how psychological research has pointed out that 'introversion' & 'independ minds' tend to correlate.

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Re: 6 Hand signs for Extraversion / Introversion!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:34 am

Lynn wrote:
OK I understand what you are saying about studying a homogeneous population. So I'll rephrase my earlier post to say: I'd be interested to see a similar study on men's hands.
Actually I think your first post here is a bit misleading, because it says "This article presents a brand new model for recognizing the hand of an 'extravert'" but you didn't mention the specific factor that it only applies to women with higher than average IQ. (it is mentioned at the end of the article, but not on the announcement at this board).

In reply to a previous post, yes I remember Sheldon's somatotypes, people used to refer to them a lot years ago but you don't hear much about them now.

I didn't understand your reply to Kiran
HS life line + disconnected head line = ?
LS life line + connected head line = ?

Regarding Extraversion I would simply prefer to say that those combinations 'neutralize' each other.
why/how do they neutralise each other?

anyway I look forward to the further details next month.

Lynn, I have the impression that you misunderstood some part of my comment referring to the male-female variations for hand shape. I only tried to describe that a hand shape comparision between males and females is kind of problematic. And for that reason I decided to exclude men from my study... just to make the study more simple.

But I see no reason to assume that the results would become different for men (nor for people with an average IQ).


By sharing info related to the sexe, ethnicity, IQ & age of the studied subjects, I have only described that both groups are homogeneous - which lowers the risk that the results are resulting from other variables (because we know that hands tend to vary for sexe & ethnicity, and in a lesser degree to IQ & age).

Sorry, I think your use of the word 'misleading' is not accurate here - because studying a 'homogeneous' population... actually puts MORE value to the results!

But I fully understand that you are looking forward to see more details, especially regarding men.


Regarding my reply to Kiran about how the markers neutralise, what I have in mind is rather simple:

If 2 markers combined make a clue (+!), one could describe each of them as +1/2.
If 2 other markers combined make a different clue (-1), one could describe each of them as -1/2.

Now, any other combination would make: +1/2 and -1/2... = 0

So where I used the word 'neutralise' I meant to say that the netto-effect of such combinations of features becomes 'zero'.

I also could put it like this:

1/2 clue for extraversion + 1/2 clue for introversion = normal behavior

Simples...? wave

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Re: 6 Hand signs for Extraversion / Introversion!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:38 am

Parender wrote:Hi Martijn,

I agree with you that “Everybody Has Some Introversion and Some Extroversion Traits”. And I add that it depends on the circumstances. Environment is greater than man. There can no one who is fully extroverted or fully introverted as there is neither pure happiness nor misery.

You can say after having used all the keys in complete hand analysis that you are ‘more inclined to be extroverted’ or introverted.
Extrovert is the ‘Psychology’ of a person who is concerned more with practical realities than with inner thoughts and feelings, being concerned with the social and physical environment; then DEEPER, STRAIGHTER head line that proceeds towards mount of Mars is expected comparing with the heart line. For all this purposes sufficient courage and resistance is needed and that will be supplied by this mount especially if the hand has a STRONGER wire to carry the current.

Introvert is the ‘Psychology’ of persons who tend to shrink from social contacts and become preoccupied with their own thoughts, turn inside, the contemplation of their own thoughts and desires and conducts, then here DEEPER HEART LINES are expected than headlines and have slopes downside towards mount of Moon.

To simplify the assessment whether a person is extrovert, the following points should be considered; a broad hand with preferably spatulate nails, whorl patterns on finger tips, especially on little finger, the ‘course’ of head line and, a preferable ‘slightly’ joined head-life lines. These symptoms are sufficient to reveal easily the extrovert trend or such soul psychology of a person. Much detail may complicate the things. Other symptoms in this regard are secondary in this regard such as a curved heart line, longer and deeper life line which runs around the mount of Venus and not on it, longer ring finger.

Besides that emotions change of course. It is a continue process. So, you can tell about present trend only. No guarantee for the future. A 'balanced' personality has a well proportioned lines and hand formation who can be extrovert and introvert as time required. We all know very well that Lines change according to our thinking, attitudes and acts and experiences. Soul psychology is deciphered by fingertip patterns so ulnar or radial loops will definitely tell their own stories.

Parender Sethi

Parender, thanks for sharing your ideas.

By the way, I have analysed of the fingerprints as well... but found no significant differences at all between both groups.

For example:

Regarding your suggestion that a pinky whorl as a marker for extraversion: in my sample 3 out of 20 extroverts have a whorl on at least one pinky finger; but the percentage is not higher compared to the group of introverts, where 2 out 14 have the pinky whorl on both hands. And the percentages for each group sort of fall within the range of normal (which is another important observation in order to draw conclusions). By the way, a percentage not far above 10% for a pinky whorl is just perfectly normal for Dutch hands.

Therefore this small Dutch population points out that a whorl on the pinky finger is unlikely to be significant marker for (high) extraversion.


PS. I also checked for radial loops, for both groups the percentages are within the range of normal as well.

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Re: 6 Hand signs for Extraversion / Introversion!

Post  Lynn on Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:17 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn, I have the impression that you misunderstood some part of my comment referring to the male-female variations for hand shape.....

I don't think I misunderstood you. Not sure how I gave you that impression.

Martijn (admin) wrote:Sorry, I think your use of the word 'misleading' is not accurate here - because studying a 'homogeneous' population... actually puts MORE value to the results!
maybe misleading is the wrong word. But it took me a while to notice that the study was only about women with above average IQ. Until a study is done on men with above average IQ, or women with below average IQ etc. we don't know if the results apply to everyone.

Martijn (admin) wrote:Regarding my reply to Kiran about how the markers neutralise, what I have in mind is rather simple:

If 2 markers combined make a clue (+!), one could describe each of them as +1/2.
If 2 other markers combined make a different clue (-1), one could describe each of them as -1/2.

Now, any other combination would make: +1/2 and -1/2... = 0

So where I used the word 'neutralise' I meant to say that the netto-effect of such combinations of features becomes 'zero'.

I also could put it like this:

1/2 clue for extraversion + 1/2 clue for introversion = normal behavior

Simples...? wave [/color]
OK. As the two things were noted together as 'one clue', I didn't know how much emphasis was placed on the setting and how much on the (dis)connection, but if it is 1/2 & 1/2 then I understand better what you were saying to Kiran.

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Extrovert and introvert

Post  catseam on Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:22 pm

As someone born in the week of exposure
I am both
extrovert
and
introvert
;o)
Simples.

http://www.thesecretlanguageofbirthdays.com/report/?r=w00000819

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Re: 6 Hand signs for Extraversion / Introversion!

Post  Lynn on Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:46 am

hi Catseam, thanks for posting your link. Yes I think it is possible to be both extravert & introvert in different situations / various ways.
And thanks for quoting Aleksandr, my favourite meerkat from car insurance advert - *Simples* Wink

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Re: 6 Hand signs for Extraversion / Introversion!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:21 am


thinking ... I would like to point out a few other points more explicitely (because various rather general comments have been made sort of suggesting that extraversion / introversion is not a stable dimension in any person):

I think for understanding the results of my study properly it is important to know that next to the categories 'extraverts' and 'introverts'... there is a third category in between: which we could describe as the 'intermediate' - which applies to the majority of people who do not tend to show explicitely consistent behavior regarding this (important) personality dimension.

To make it more explicite how I identified the 'extraverts' and the 'introverts' in my study, it is important to be aware that in the NEO PI-R questionnaire the Extraversion dimension is assessed with 48 questions (statements relating to 6 sub-dimensions: Activity - Assertiveness - Excitement Seeking - Gregariousness - Positive Emotions - Warmth; e.g. 8 questions for each sub-category), where the individual is asked to assess each statement in terms of a 5 category multiple-choice answer (from the top of my head: varying from something like... 1 - never, 2 - only sometimes, 3 - neutral, 4 - often, 5 - very often).

For females this results in that they were required to score (from the top of my head) above 180 points (normalised score: 8 or 9) to qualify as an 'extrovert', or below 130 points (normalised score 2 or 1) to qualify as an 'introvert'. [Maximum score: 240 points, minimum score: 48 points]

Which implicates that only about 10% of people can be recognized to behave consistently as an 'extravert' (which can be associated with the high scorers), and about 10% of people can be recognized to behave consistently as an 'introvert'.

The groups in my study (20 extraverts + 14 introverts) where selected from a larger group of about 180 females - who all performed the NEO PI-Rquestionnaire.


So...

Regarding most people who appear to show a combination of extravert & introvert behaviors... those are very likely to belong to the third (intermediate) category. Catseam's astrology-profile is just an example of this (though such profiles often tend to include elements that can be associated with the so-called Barnum-effect).

Also, when people enter a new phase (or a phase of crisis) in their lives, they nearly always tend to behave (slightly) differently for a while... but by principle one should not mistake that as if their personality has changed permanently. Afterall, it is only common sense that when people have the flue one will not recognize all parts of their normal behavior; and the same is true for those who suffer for (temporary) mental illness, etc.

I hope this additional info is helpful to understand the results of my study better.

wave


PS. In the MBTI questionnaire 50% of people is assessed in the E-category (extravert) and 50% of people is assessed in the I-category (introvert)... which sort of creates as 'flip-flop' situation where people can move from the one category into the other category because of just 1 slight change in the answers; and even when people have a balanced mix of extravert- and introvert behavior... they will always end up in one of the two categories anyway.

This also implicates that far most people inside each of the MBTI's E- and I-group will likely end up somwhere in the third 'intermediate' category (normal scores varying from 3 to 7) of the NEO PI-R questionnaire.

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Re: 6 Hand signs for Extraversion / Introversion!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:41 pm


... During the past week I have entered the second phase of this study (via studying a sample of males); the first results look promissing and indicate that especially finger length and palm shape appear to display the most significant clues regarding extraversion/introversion.

This implicates that the results (which I will present later) indicate that 'hand shape' concerns the first aspect of the hand to look for discriminating the hands of extraverts from the hands of introverts:

- mixed hand shapes dominant for FIRE are very common among extraverts (females: 52%; males: 85%), while these are much less common seen among introverts (females: 25%; males:50%).

-mixed hand shapes dominant for WATER are often seen among introverts (females: 60%; males: 21%), while these are far less often seen among extraverts (females: 20% ; males: 0%).

- 6 hand shapes were dominant for AIR, and 5 of those relate to one of the extraverts (females: 10%, males: 7%).

- None of the hands in the studied samples are dominant for earth.


But there is more to report:

Next to the 'hand shape' it appears that the development of the 4 corners of the palm provides other important clues (the ulnar corners of the palm had already been adopted in the earlier results... but I am working on adopting at least one of the other two corners in the 'phantom hand model' as well).

By combining hand shape with the two ulnar corners of the palm it is possible to discriminate more than half of the male extraverts and introverts, and almost half of the females extraverts and introverts.

(More soon!)

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