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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:45 pm

Kiran.Katawa wrote:Martijn,
While reading your first para, I felt that you understood what I was trying to describe. But, at the end, you mis-read me or left out some points Smile.

The examples I gave was to show: "how one can create arguments regarding how (possibly) any line can be associated with both the inner- and outer world."

What is your view on: As already mentioned here, the palm as a whole represents all that is inside of us. The division indicates whether we are conscious of that energy or not. However, irrespective of whether I am conscious or not, the energy seeks an outlet to get expressed in my life and/ or in the world. Then, how can this be used ( the expression of energy in the life and/or in the world) for the division of the palm?

Kiran, I think what is missing in your view as described above... that you have not described how the palm varies from the fingers (so I think this is one more example of that you have not presented a proper analysis for your association regarding the palm... because the fingers are missing in your association!).

Are you saying: palm = inner world, fingers = outer world?

(Sorry, I hesitate to comment about your further thoughts about 'conscious' & 'energy'... because I perceive your thoughts as a rather abstract way of reasoning, of which I can hardly conclude anything at all. This also explains why I did not respond to all aspects in your former post... I hope this makes sense now?)


Thanks!

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:13 pm

RishiRahul wrote:
Patti wrote:Just to add my 2 cents worth here regarding will and logic. My short and sweet definition is the top relates to will in this sense - "Do it because I said so!" and the lower section relates to logic/reason in this sense - "Let me explain why you should do it my way."

Variations in the thumb shows which dominates and how these approaches are used.

Hi Patti,

This is very logical!

Also if I may mention that the passion of Venus is responsible for the towering force which gives impetus to the Final success shown by the thumb.
This is whether we believe that Venus is a part of thumb, or not.

Argumentatively, it may or may not be.
I could for either; as long as we know how what influences which.

There was a time when Pluto was considered a planet; another time it was not.
But Pluto did not change. It being downgraded/upgraded was with the viewer.

I was a fan of Freud from my younger days; from age 16 to 18 onwards; still am.
I instinctively felt that he was talking sense; despite some claims that he made up some case histories himself to support his understanding better.
If that is true, then he knew 'marketing' well, even at that time.

RishiRahul

Hi Rishi,
Thank you! Yes, I would see the thenar mount area as giving an indication of the amount of physical force, passion or ummph behind the will presented in the thumb. From there I would combine a variety of features to give support and description.

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:13 pm

Kiran.Katawa wrote:Martijn,
While reading your first para, I felt that you understood what I was trying to describe. But, at the end, you mis-read me or left out some points Smile.

The examples I gave was to show: "how one can create arguments regarding how (possibly) any line can be associated with both the inner- and outer world."

What is your view on: As already mentioned here, the palm as a whole represents all that is inside of us. The division indicates whether we are conscious of that energy or not. However, irrespective of whether I am conscious or not, the energy seeks an outlet to get expressed in my life and/ or in the world. Then, how can this be used ( the expression of energy in the life and/or in the world) for the division of the palm?




Thumbs up!

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:27 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:Just to add my 2 cents worth here regarding will and logic. My short and sweet definition is the top relates to will in this sense - "Do it because I said so!" and the lower section relates to logic/reason in this sense - "Let me explain why you should do it my way."

Variations in the thumb shows which dominates and how these approaches are used.

Thanks Patti,

At first sight one could point out that your key-words 'will' (1st thumb phalange) and 'logic/reason' (2nd thumb phalange) both refer to conscious cognitive processes; and both are recognized to belong to the primary human psychological functions (which are part of the inner world as those functions are inside of us).

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volition_(psychology)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reason

Your earlier feedback indicates that you consider each associated with both the inner world and the outer world. I understand the part related to the inner world... but how do you explain the part relating to the outer world?


Martijn, I think everyone that has posted has shown the contradictions that one side represents an outer, projected or exposed energy and another part of the hand represents an inner or receptive, perhaps hidden energy.

All parts of the hand are both positive and negative electrical impulses/charges/energy at all times to varying degrees. These degrees of differences may even vary from moment to moment in the changing hand positions and movements. Reflecting attitudes of the moment.

Regarding the thumb, the qualities of the tip show me how much brute force a person uses to enforce their will upon the environment. Perhaps they show a little or a lot. The middle section shows some kind of diplomacy or lack thereof and if you add the base, how much energy a person has and feels inclined/motivated/compelled to use.

Then - you add the rest of the hand to this to get even greater details into what is behind the motivations, the preferences and urges, and how these may even have formed.

It is the self interacting with the environment. The I applying its will upon you/environment. But, the I is inwardly observing and reacting and adjusting I's behavior to put out the best approach to alter the environment to suit I's preferences.

No philosophical perspectives necessary.


Last edited by Patti on Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:32 pm

Kiran.Katawa wrote:Martijn,
While reading your first para, I felt that you understood what I was trying to describe. But, at the end, you mis-read me or left out some points Smile.

The examples I gave was to show: "how one can create arguments regarding how (possibly) any line can be associated with both the inner- and outer world."

What is your view on: As already mentioned here, the palm as a whole represents all that is inside of us. The division indicates whether we are conscious of that energy or not. However, irrespective of whether I am conscious or not, the energy seeks an outlet to get expressed in my life and/ or in the world. Then, how can this be used ( the expression of energy in the life and/or in the world) for the division of the palm?


Kiran, regarding your 2nd sentence.... I think you misunderstood the intend of my earlier point: with those words I meant to describe that one can create associative arguments (which eventually might result in inconsistencies) and one create funamental arguments (which should never result in incosistencies).

Be aware, the human mind can run in any direction... fundamental arguments will point out whether the mind runs in the right- (based on philosophical reality) or wrong direction (via arbitrary associations).

So, it is easy to create an argument, but when the argument does not pass a fundamental analysis... the the argument can be rejected.

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sunny

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:56 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn, I think everyone that has posted has either shown the contradictions that one side represents and outer, projected or exposed energy and another part of the hand represents an inner or receptive, perhaps hidden energy.

All parts of the hand are both positive and negative electrical impulses/charges/energy at all times to varying degrees. These degrees of differences may even vary from moment to moment in the changing hand positions and movements. Reflecting attitudes of the moment.

Regarding the thumb, the qualities of the tip show me how much brute force a person uses to enforce their will upon the environment. Perhaps they show a little or a lot. The middle section shows some kind of diplomacy or lack thereof and if you add the base, how much energy a person has and feels inclined/motivated/compelled to use.

Then - you add the rest of the hand to this to get even greater details into what is behind the motivations, the preferences and urges, and how these may even have formed.

It is the self interacting with the environment. The I applying its will upon you/environment. But, the I is inwardly observing and reacting and adjusting I's behavior to put out the best approach to alter the environment to suit I's preferences.

No philosophical perspectives necessary.

Patti, thank you for your answer regarding the thumb. But I could describe this as an 'associative' answer... probably resulting from how you tend to explain things during a reading. But I don't see a fundamental answer to my question (because you basically only described the theory that you use yourself).

So, I am wondering... maybe you can also present me a fundamental answer (instead of an associative answer)?

(More specific: how can you describe a cognitive function (such as 'will' and 'logic/reason', which are both know as aspects of the 'inner world') to be representing a part of the 'outer world'?)


Patti, the following does not make much sense to me:

"All parts of the hand are both positive and negative electrical impulses/charges/energy at all times to varying degrees. These degrees of differences may even vary from moment to moment in the changing hand positions and movements. Reflecting attitudes of the moment."

Because when everything is 'positive' AND 'negative' in the hand... then it would no longer make any sense to continue talking about 'positive' and 'negative', for, one then can not discriminatie the difference between the two in the perspective of the hand!

In laws, economics & physics the words 'positve' and 'negative' always represent two fundamentally different states of being in the context fo those sciences... so it would not make much sense to suggest that in the field of hand reading one can not say that anything is 'positive' or 'negative'.


For example, when a person uses the rethorics: 'everything is God'... this would raise the question: 'how to recognize God?' And one could also argue from a fundamental view that if 'everything is God'... this would implicate: the devil = God.

And therefore I think that the words 'everything is God' are likely to turn out to be recognized as (subjective) 'associative' nonsense.... because those words are likely not much more than a projection of the person's personal concept of God. After all, it's simply impossible to proof that 'everything is God'... even from a filosophical point of view!

I hope this make sense?

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:44 pm

Patti wrote: Inner and Outer Halves of the Hand Feb 26, '01 2:24 PM
by christopher MSN for group handreadingcafe

Different handreaders see the different sides of the hand in different ways.

...
We use these two digits in more of our everyday hand gestures too - pointing, hitch-hiking, the 'OK' sign etc. they are more communicative with other people than the other digits are. (Now, I know that some of you are going to say: "but the index finger is ruled by water, which is an internal element"... in which case you get my reply: "Aha! so another argument for considering the index finger as being ruled by the fire element then!!").
...

Lynn, have you noticed that in this citate from Christopher's Cyber Cafe writings CONFIRMS your earlier writing: 'water = inner world'...?

You later described that the connection water = inner world only relates the quadrants... but Christopher clearly describes here that water does represent an 'internal element' itself!

I think this clearly confirms that there is an inconsistency in the elemental approach... regarind the association of the index finger (which is part of the radial side of the hand) with the outer world.


Regarding the index finger in general, I think this association is for example confirmed by the fact that in most hand reading systems the index finger gets associated with 'ambition' (e.g. when the head line starts on the mount below the index finger when it gets dissociated from the life line).

Ambition is a 'desire' to achieve things; which is a similar quality to motivation... and both are 'cognitive qualities', which always can be said to relate to the inner world.

(Earlier today I present also my example of the ring of Solomon, which is associated with 'wisdom' - a concept that also relates to the inner world)


Lynn, can you understand how I have started to approach our problems regarding finding agreement about how to describe the hand topography via this fundamental view? (Based on how the nature of the individual qualities - such as 'ambition' - are defined in psychology/philosophy)

PS. Maybe this is an interesting perspective to read and see how 'ambition' gets connected with 'energy' + 'inner strength'... which both also relate to the inner world:
http://www.successconsciousness.com/inner_outer_changes.htm

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:34 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn, have you noticed that in this citate from Christopher's Cyber Cafe writings CONFIRMS your earlier writing: 'water = inner world'...?

You later described that the connection water = inner world only relates the quadrants... but Christopher clearly describes here that water does represent an 'internal element' itself!

I think this clearly confirms that there is an inconsistency in the elemental approach... regarind the association of the index finger (which is part of the radial side of the hand) with the outer world.


Regarding the index finger in general, I think this association is for example confirmed by the fact that in most hand reading systems the index finger gets associated with 'ambition' (e.g. when the head line starts on the mount below the index finger when it gets dissociated from the life line).

Ambition is a 'desire' to achieve things; which is a similar quality to motivation... and both are 'cognitive qualities', which always can be said to relate to the inner world.

(Earlier today I present also my example of the ring of Solomon, which is associated with 'wisdom' - a concept that also relates to the inner world)


Lynn, can you understand how I have started to approach our problems regarding finding agreement about how to describe the hand topography via this fundamental view? (Based on how the nature of the individual qualities - such as 'ambition' - are defined in psychology/philosophy)

PS. Maybe this is an interesting perspective to read and see how 'ambition' gets connected with 'energy' + 'inner strength'... which both also relate to the inner world:
http://www.successconsciousness.com/inner_outer_changes.htm

You later described that the connection water = inner world only relates the quadrants..
No I didn't say that water = inner world only relates to the quadrants
I said that water quadrant = subconscious /passive
I said index finger = water type consciousness
I wondered if the whole palm represents the inner world, or whether just ulna side does.

I think this clearly confirms that there is an inconsistency in the elemental approach.
or is the inconsistency in your understanding of the elemental approach? (or maybe I don't explain it clearly enough).

Yes I agree ambition etc is desire to acheive something.
I also suggested " the palm represents the inner world and .the fingers & thumb represent how we connect that to the outer world." not the outer world itself.
As Patti said "It is the self interacting with the environment."

From a previous msg
And therefore, if you assume that only the palm represents the inner world (and the fingers represent how we connect the inner world with outer world)... then it would not no longer make sense to also assume that the fingers represent the 'mind'.

Because the result would become that both the 'palm' (= inner world in your first assumption) and the 'fingers' (= 'mind' in your second assumption = inner world [by principle]) are being described as representing the inner world.

well, maybe the whole hand is our inner world! Wink
But how do we connect our inner with the outer world? For the most part, we think 'I want to do something' and we do it! Consciousness.
The link you just gave http://www.successconsciousness.com/inner_outer_changes.htm describes how our outer reality is shaped to a great extent by our inner world. Inner changes bring outer changes.
Why cannot the fingers and thumb be the vehicles by which we manifest these things out in the world?

(written quickly, there were lots of other posts I wanted to refer to, but no time)


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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:27 pm

Perhaps to you my thoughts seem associative and related to doing readings. Yes, absolutely I can say most of my methods I use in reading hands have evolved over the years from interaction with hundreds and hundreds of live samples to observe in and out of their habitats. Smile I definitely have come to not base my readings and interpretations on *applied meanings*. Archetypes, elements and labels are mostly just that for me, labels and memory triggers.

This slicing and dicing of the hand into complete sections and quadrants of pure life essence is only a method for trying to divide a moving, pulsing, multidirectional spectrum into boxes or compartments of energies. But, doing this is a human mind's limited break down of something much greater and much more whole. Systems that use such labeling are basic learning systems on how to combine the various pieces and obtain various results. It's is like mixing and matching colors. These systems should be used as a tool or stepping stone to advance to the mixing and matching by quick analysis/association/intuition process that comes to those that actively practice in this field.

Imagine trying to do to the heart what you're doing here to the hand and even in the compartmentalized brain it is becoming more known that the brain is not as divided as it once was thought to be.

Martijn, I will answer your question with a quote from one of your own web pages:

http://palmreadingperspectives.wordpress.com/tag/jung/

Aristotle, the Greek philosopher said about the hand:

“… (the hand) is the organ of the organs, the active agent of the passive powers




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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Kiran.Katawa on Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:30 pm

Martijn,
Regarding these
Kiran.Katawa wrote:
What is your view on: As already mentioned here, the palm as a whole represents all that is inside of us. The division indicates whether we are conscious of that energy or not. However, irrespective of whether I am conscious or not, the energy seeks an outlet to get expressed in my life and/ or in the world. Then, how can this be used ( the expression of energy in the life and/or in the world) for the division of the palm?

My points are w.r.t. your interpretations:
Martijn (admin) wrote:[This is with regards to your points on
Ulnar side represents - outerworld(sub conscious)
Radial side represents - innerworld(conscious)

My reference is same as that of the one explained by Lynn:
The whole hand's horizontal divison (One of the various divisions):
Palm(without fingers) = body (The person tends to spend more time in materializing, if the palmer portion is longer)
Fingers = mind (The person tends to spend more time in thinking, if the finger portion is longer).

The reasons given by you for the objective division of the palm are as below. But, this or the further explanations given doesn't substantiate that ulnar side of the palm gives outerworld and vice-versa.
Martijn (admin) wrote:

For this reason I have tried to create a value-free map of the hand (see picture above), describing the role of the thumb in the perspective of the full hand - without using any theological- nor any philosophical vocabulary.
I hope you noticed that I created this topic to initiate a discussion about how to understand the nature of the thumb.

How did I create this chart?

My starting point is the 'classic' approach (seen in most branches of hand reading) where the trinity 'thinking, feeling & willing' is associated with the 3 phalanges of the thumb.
And I think it is quite obvious that the 'self' & 'soul' (just like the 'I') can only be associated to represent the 'inner world'.... and not the 'outer world'.

Second, regarding the labels that I have used for the 4 fingers: I have destilated those from multiple sources which e.g. describe the associated planetary archetypes, plus the traditional associations regarding the fingers, plus the archetypes described in Johnny Fincham's 2nd book. I hope these now make sense?

Third, regarding the 'sensing' being associated with the hypothenar... Edo Sprong writes:

"Alle zintuigen worden als het ware gefilterd door the maanheuvel. Door de maanheuve ontvangen we de buitenwereld."

[Translated: "All senses are as it were filtered through the mount of Moon. Via the mount of Moon we receive the outside world."]

So... I think I have now explained how the thumb (representing the 'I' or 'soul') is associated with the inner world; I have explained how the pinky finger is associated with the outer world (because communication & relationships for sure require interaction with the outer world); and I have explained who the mount of moon is associated to represents the senses (through which we connect with the outer world).

Particularly, w.r.t. the bold text, I re-iterate, what you acknowledged: "I understand your examples as an attempt to describe how one can create arguments regarding how (possibly) any line can be associated with both the inner- and outer world. "

You have also said all these below things:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
But my answer would start with the connection that I presented in my picture: the mount of moon represents our senses... which require the outer world to get fueled with impressions from outside. And I think our senses also play a role in how imagination, creativity & intuition work - though I realise that this very much depends on how one defines imagination, creativity & intuition.

(One could imagine that it requires to shut down our physical senses for a moment in order to activate our non-physical senses which can manifest through imagination, creativity & intuition, etc.)

Also, please be aware in this perspective how a life line entering the mount of moon is traditionally also associated with voyages, traveling & a more outward life style... and one can also think about the so-called 'travel lines', which are always associated with the mount of moon!
Again, particularly, w.r.t. the bold text, I re-iterate, what you acknowledged: "I understand your examples as an attempt to describe how one can create arguments regarding how (possibly) any line can be associated with both the inner- and outer world. "


Martijn (admin) wrote:
So, at the end... maybe what is missing in our discussion so far is a proper analysis of why the palm became associated with the 'body' and the fingers with the 'mind'...???
A very common error, which is seen, when things are interpreted at micro level. Given a palm(including fingers), this is a broader division / a bird's view to understand where the energy(chi) is spent more.
It is like, I have a house map, which says - kitchen is of this size and bedroom is of this size.
Your questioning is like - You're getting into kitchen and you see switches there. But, you also see switches in bedroom and then comeback and ask - switches are there in kitchen and also in bedroom. How come you can call one room as kitchen and the other as bedroom?

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:46 pm

Kiran.Katawa wrote:
Your questioning is like - You're getting into kitchen and you see switches there. But, you also see switches in bedroom and then comeback and ask - switches are there in kitchen and also in bedroom. How come you can call one room as kitchen and the other as bedroom?

Thumbs up! Thumb up lol! rolling on the floor Yes Laughing



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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Kiran.Katawa on Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:00 pm

Came across this quote in Unger's journals:
"Hands are wholistic overview and a detailed map. Allow both the sides to serve."

To add further, from myside - Don't mix wholistic view with detailed map and vice versa.

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:31 pm

Lynn wrote:
You later described that the connection water = inner world only relates the quadrants..
No I didn't say that water = inner world only relates to the quadrants
I said that water quadrant = subconscious /passive
I said index finger = water type consciousness
I wondered if the whole palm represents the inner world, or whether just ulna side does.

I think this clearly confirms that there is an inconsistency in the elemental approach.
or is the inconsistency in your understanding of the elemental approach? (or maybe I don't explain it clearly enough).

Okay Lynn, thanks for correcting my obvious mistake there (I apologize, I should have re-read your earlier comments before responding).

Thumbs up!


Unfortunately, regarding the inconsistency that I mentioned... I still think that Christopher's words suggest that there is an inconsistency. Afterall, why else would he want to suggest that he actually thinks that the index finger should be 'ruled' by fire???:

Christopher wrote: "Now, I know that some of you are going to say: "but the index finger is ruled by water, which is an internal element"... in which case you get my reply: "Aha! so another argument for considering the index finger as being ruled by the fire element then!!""

I can only guess that Christopher must have recognized that there is an inconsistency inside the elemental system, and thus he probably made the suggestion to step over the inconsistency.


And... I also still see clear inconsistencies (yes, multiple: 3!) rising inside your own reasoning (which by the way do not relate to the issue mentioned by christopher):

I) For example, I spotted one between on the one side the principles presented by elemental chirology, which suggest that the radial side of the palm is 'active':

(Lynn quote 1: ""Lower ulna = water = passive subconscious
Top ulna = air = passive conscious
Lower radial - earth = active subconscious
Upper radial = fire = active conscious""
)

... and on the other side your latest reasoning, in which your appear to suggest that the full palm is 'active':

(Lynn quote 2: "Hand shape -
Palm vs fingers - the fingers represent the mind, the palm represents the body. They reflect the general mind/body balance of a person. (this can be used at first glance on looking at a hand)
Fingers predominate = Long fingers (air and water hands) the mind predominates over the body. ie mental activities are most important, inner world is more dominant over the physical, active world. .
Palm predominates = Short fingers (earth and fire hands) the body predominates over the mind. (ie physical activities ‘doing’ predominates over ‘thinking’)""
)


II) But I have a second example:

Because then you also suggested: 'the palm represents the inner world':

(Lynn quote 3: "I suggested " the palm represents the inner world and .the fingers & thumb represent how we connect that to the outer world." not the outer world itself. A vehicle to connect with the outer world.")


Which allows me to summarize:

- first you said:
"the palm represents the body"

- then you said:
"the palm represents the inner world"

Lynn, I could write this symbolically as:
palm = body = inner world


However... you also described in the case of longer fingers: 'inner world is more dominant over the physical world':

("Fingers predominate = Long fingers (air and water hands) the mind predominates over the body. ie mental activities are most important, inner world is more dominant over the physical, active world. ")

Lynn, it appears that you are using the words 'physical world' as a reference to... the body, correct?
(I assumed that you have not used the words 'physical world' to refer to the 'outer world').

But if I read 'physical world' as 'body'... then your sentence becomes:

"inner world is more dominant over the body"

This sentence suggests that the 'inner world' and the 'body' can not be likewise; however, your ealier reasoning had indicated:

palm = body = inner world

... which suggests that 'inner world' and 'body' are likewise!


Lynn, would you allow me to call this a 'contradiction'?


PS. I observe more contraditions in your writings above because (III) while you said 'the palm represents the inner world', you also associate the body with "physical activities ‘doing’":

("Palm predominates = Short fingers (earth and fire hands) the body predominates over the mind. (ie physical activities ‘doing’ predominates over ‘thinking’")

... but then I would say that doing physical activities is by principle more like an 'outer world' activity... so inside your reasoning about the palm, the palm itself gets associated with the outer world - however, I fear that you have not done this with purpose, because it's so deep hidden inside your reasoning that you probably did not notice this yourself.

Correct?

(If not correct, would you mind to re-write your II and III quotes from your words above... in order to show what you exactly have in mind...?)

Thanks!

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:07 pm

Lynn wrote:...

Yes I agree ambition etc is desire to acheive something.
I also suggested " the palm represents the inner world and .the fingers & thumb represent how we connect that to the outer world." not the outer world itself.
As Patti said "It is the self interacting with the environment."

From a previous msg
And therefore, if you assume that only the palm represents the inner world (and the fingers represent how we connect the inner world with outer world)... then it would not no longer make sense to also assume that the fingers represent the 'mind'.

Because the result would become that both the 'palm' (= inner world in your first assumption) and the 'fingers' (= 'mind' in your second assumption = inner world [by principle]) are being described as representing the inner world.

well, maybe the whole hand is our inner world! Wink
But how do we connect our inner with the outer world? For the most part, we think 'I want to do something' and we do it! Consciousness.
The link you just gave http://www.successconsciousness.com/inner_outer_changes.htm describes how our outer reality is shaped to a great extent by our inner world. Inner changes bring outer changes.
Why cannot the fingers and thumb be the vehicles by which we manifest these things out in the world?

(written quickly, there were lots of other posts I wanted to refer to, but no time)


cheers ... Lynn, I am happy to see that we do agree about the nature of 'ambition' as a desire, but I also think that in general, by principle any desire should as a start be connected with the inner world (simply because the desire lives inside us... and thus it is inevitable connected with our inner world).

By the way, Wikipedia reports:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desire

"For psychologists, desires arise from bodily structures, such as the stomach which needs food, the blood needs oxygen, and so on; on the other hand, emotions arise from a person's mental state."

So, in general... one could argue that the 'desire for food' is not fundamentally different from the 'desire to achieve something': both relate to the inner world.

I would have agreed if you had said that a 'desire to achieve something' can become a motive to connect with the world... however, I don't think that there is a real 'connection' with the outer world resulting from the desire itself.

And therefore I could argue that the index finger (desire to achieve) needs the pinky (communication) to make the connection, etc.

Does this make sense?

(Sorry, after you agreed about the nature of 'ambition'... I think you pointed out to your earlier reasoning about the palm and fingers in general... I don't see a real explanation why 'ambition' itself can be associated with the outer world. And I think that Patti's words - "It is the self interacting with the environment." are also rather associative to make a connection between 'ambition' and the outer world)


PS. Regarding your comment: "well, maybe the whole hand is our inner world! Wink"... well, have you read my 'God is everything'-analysis?

I think your final comment about how we connect the inner world with the outer world... could become more interesting when we are able to start with a clear perspective... that does not include any contradictive elements.

Basically, we need a clear definition for the hand regarding where the inner world and the outer world are found, because... if we would agree and arrive at a point where we must conclude: 'the full hand is inner world' and 'the full hand is outer world', then I would start working on a solid argument to drop both concepts from any topographic hand chart!

( lol! )

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:11 am

(digression) This discussion has brought back a memory......When my son was about 8 years old, he and his friend invented a new martial art which they called something like "Kaiwhammy" - the art of tying yourself in knots.
lol!

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:17 am

Patti wrote:
Kiran.Katawa wrote:
Your questioning is like - You're getting into kitchen and you see switches there. But, you also see switches in bedroom and then comeback and ask - switches are there in kitchen and also in bedroom. How come you can call one room as kitchen and the other as bedroom?

Thumbs up! Thumb up lol! rolling on the floor Yes Laughing
Yes Kiran that was a brilliant analogy. I am enjoying your posts in this discussion, a few times you have hit the nail on the head. eg.
Came across this quote in Unger's journals:
"Hands are wholistic overview and a detailed map. Allow both the sides to serve."

To add further, from myside - Don't mix wholistic view with detailed map and vice versa.

exactly. Thumb up Thumbs up!

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:08 am

(sorry I thought my computer was about to shut down again, so I hit 'send'before it was ready. There will be numerous edits over the next 30 minutes!)

Martijn (admin) wrote:Okay Lynn, thanks for correcting my obvious mistake there (I apologize, I should have re-read your earlier comments before responding).
Thumbs up!
Thanks for recognising that you misunderstood me and jumped to an erroneous conclusion.

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Unfortunately, regarding the inconsistency that I mentioned... I still think that Christopher's words suggest that there is an inconsistency. Afterall, why else would he want to suggest that he actually thinks that the index finger should be 'ruled' by fire???:

Christopher wrote: "Now, I know that some of you are going to say: "but the index finger is ruled by water, which is an internal element"... in which case you get my reply: "Aha! so another argument for considering the index finger as being ruled by the fire element then!!""

I can only guess that Christopher must have recognized that there is an inconsistency inside the elemental system, and thus he probably made the suggestion to step over the inconsistency.

You need to understand the context of some of the quotes reproduced here from the cybercafe. They came at a time when we had all resigned from the C.Soc after we found out the truth about Terry Dukes. It was a very difficult time, and we were trying to decide which of his teachings were correct and which were nonsense. eg the quote about "ether must go" was with regard to what we were going to change in the teaching syllabus. Other comments were made about changing the nomenclature of various hand features, astrological associations, mounts, quadrants, distinction between major and minor lines......we were questioning everything! The sentence you've quoted would be like taking any random sentence from this discussion (where we are thinking aloud, trying to work things out) and bringing it up 12 years later. Yes there are arguments why index could be fire, but that's not appropriate to this discussion because it would take hours of long digressions explaining the elemental system to you.

Martijn (admin) wrote:
And... I also still see clear inconsistencies (yes, multiple: 3!) rising inside your own reasoning (which by the way do not relate to the issue mentioned by christopher):

I) For example, I spotted one between on the one side the principles presented by elemental chirology, which suggest that the radial side of the palm is 'active':

(Lynn quote 1: ""Lower ulna = water = passive subconscious
Top ulna = air = passive conscious
Lower radial - earth = active subconscious
Upper radial = fire = active conscious""
)

... and on the other side your latest reasoning, in which your appear to suggest that the full palm is 'active':

(Lynn quote 2: "Hand shape -
Palm vs fingers - the fingers represent the mind, the palm represents the body. They reflect the general mind/body balance of a person. (this can be used at first glance on looking at a hand)
Fingers predominate = Long fingers (air and water hands) the mind predominates over the body. ie mental activities are most important, inner world is more dominant over the physical, active world. .
Palm predominates = Short fingers (earth and fire hands) the body predominates over the mind. (ie physical activities ‘doing’ predominates over ‘thinking’)""
)

There is no inconsistency here. As Kiran said about micro/macro, detailed map & holistic. You don't seem to understand that we are looking at it on different levels.
Lower radial - earth = active subconscious
Earth quadrant is on the radial (active) side and the lower (subconscious) half of the palm.
But earth is a passive element (a mountain does not move).
"the palm represents the body" - the body as a whole is our earth, the physical tangible aspects of us, our shape.
Fingers predominate = Long fingers (air and water hands) the mind predominates over the body. ie mental activities are most important, inner world is more dominant over the physical, active world. .
ie air or water (thoughts & emotions, inner world) predominate over the earth and fire (physical and action, outer world).
What we see most about people is their physical body and their actions (earth & fire). Their thoughts and emotions (air and water) are more hidden. So in this sense, earth & fire are more outer and air & water are more inner.

Martijn (admin) wrote:II) But I have a second example:
Because then you also suggested: 'the palm represents the inner world':

(Lynn quote 3: "I suggested " the palm represents the inner world and .the fingers & thumb represent how we connect that to the outer world." not the outer world itself. A vehicle to connect with the outer world.")

Which allows me to summarize:

- first you said:
"the palm represents the body"

- then you said:
"the palm represents the inner world"

Lynn, I could write this symbolically as:
palm = body = inner world

However... you also described in the case of longer fingers: 'inner world is more dominant over the physical world':

("Fingers predominate = Long fingers (air and water hands) the mind predominates over the body. ie mental activities are most important, inner world is more dominant over the physical, active world. ")

Lynn, it appears that you are using the words 'physical world' as a reference to... the body, correct?
(I assumed that you have not used the words 'physical world' to refer to the 'outer world').

But if I read 'physical world' as 'body'... then your sentence becomes:

"inner world is more dominant over the body"

This sentence suggests that the 'inner world' and the 'body' can not be likewise; however, your ealier reasoning had indicated:

palm = body = inner world

... which suggests that 'inner world' and 'body' are likewise!



I don't know where to start here .... Laughing
yes, First level, first glance we can look at handshape.
"the palm represents the body, the fingers represent the mind" ie the physical is more important than the mental.

Second level, we would look at skin texture, but that hasn't even entered this conversation so far! Wink

- then you said:
"the palm represents the inner world"
well that was just a suggestion, thinking out loud during this discussion. But if you subdivide "the palm represents the body" - you start with the outer appearance and shape of the body but then you can subdivide it into eg heart, head, digestion, autonomic & central nervous system, skeleton, body fluids, endocrine system, urinary system, reproductive system etc. (edit) Our thoughts, emotions etc all occur within the framework of these body systems - they are not visible, they are internal, inner. (/edit)

palm = body = inner world
well there you are making the same mistake that I made when I wrote:
Lower ulna = water = passive subconscious
It's not a mathematical formula. Yes the palm can represent the body, yes the palm can represent the inner world, yes the palm and the body can represent the earth, yes parts of the earth are more inner. But the parts of the earth (in this case, the body) that are more inner are subdivided into other elements eg digestion = earth, autonomic nervous system = air.
As I said on page 4 "( the fingers represent the mind, the palm represents the body. The physical body is ruled by earth.)but then of course we subdivide it all in many different ways!"

Lynn, would you allow me to call this a 'contradiction'?

No. lol!


PS. I observe more contraditions in your writings above because (III) while you said 'the palm represents the inner world', you also associate the body with "physical activities ‘doing’":

("Palm predominates = Short fingers (earth and fire hands) the body predominates over the mind. (ie physical activities ‘doing’ predominates over ‘thinking’")

... but then I would say that doing physical activities is by principle more like an 'outer world' activity... so inside your reasoning about the palm, the palm itself gets associated with the outer world - however, I fear that you have not done this with purpose, because it's so deep hidden inside your reasoning that you probably did not notice this yourself.

Correct?

What do we DO THINGS with? How do we interact with the world? Via our physical body.
What is it that contains everything else such as our organs, our brain, our heart, our nervous system? Our physical body.
Where is our inner world contained? Within our physical body.
So our earth is both the thing that we do things with, and the things that contains every part of our body, mind, emotions etc.
(edit) but the earth element does not operate alone, it needs all the other elements for it to function eg fire for action.(/edit)

(If not correct, would you mind to re-write your II and III quotes from your words above... in order to show what you exactly have in mind...?)

well, I tried.
2.30 a.m. the banana has run out of steam again



Last edited by Lynn on Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:28 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : clarity)

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  RishiRahul on Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:07 am

Patti wrote:

This slicing and dicing of the hand into complete sections and quadrants of pure life essence is only a method for trying to divide a moving, pulsing, multidirectional spectrum into boxes or compartments of energies. But, doing this is a human mind's limited break down of something much greater and much more whole. Systems that use such labeling are basic learning systems on how to combine the various pieces and obtain various results. It's is like mixing and matching colors. These systems should be used as a tool or stepping stone to advance to the mixing and matching by quick analysis/association/intuition process that comes to those that actively practice in this field.

Imagine trying to do to the heart what you're doing here to the hand and even in the compartmentalized brain it is becoming more known that the brain is not as divided as it once was thought to be.


A wonderful & very appropriate narrative of what Practical Palmistry & Palmreading is all about.

Rather a narrative for advanced handreaders/palmists....!

Which is why I always mention that in crafts, such as this, the 'black & white logic of 2+2= may not be 4 may not happen.

I was having the same problem of expressing this is in astrology forums also, but unfortunately my eNGLISH expressions are not good enough to explain this SO WELL.

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Kiran.Katawa on Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:18 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Kiran.Katawa wrote:Martijn,
While reading your first para, I felt that you understood what I was trying to describe. But, at the end, you mis-read me or left out some points Smile.

The examples I gave was to show: "how one can create arguments regarding how (possibly) any line can be associated with both the inner- and outer world."

What is your view on: As already mentioned here, the palm as a whole represents all that is inside of us. The division indicates whether we are conscious of that energy or not. However, irrespective of whether I am conscious or not, the energy seeks an outlet to get expressed in my life and/ or in the world. Then, how can this be used ( the expression of energy in the life and/or in the world) for the division of the palm?


Kiran, regarding your 2nd sentence.... I think you misunderstood the intend of my earlier point: with those words I meant to describe that one can create associative arguments (which eventually might result in inconsistencies) and one create funamental arguments (which should never result in incosistencies).

Be aware, the human mind can run in any direction... fundamental arguments will point out whether the mind runs in the right- (based on philosophical reality) or wrong direction (via arbitrary associations).

So, it is easy to create an argument, but when the argument does not pass a fundamental analysis... the the argument can be rejected.
Thumbs up! I understand your intentions and efforts in this direction Martijn.

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:26 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Unfortunately, regarding the inconsistency that I mentioned... I still think that Christopher's words suggest that there is an inconsistency. Afterall, why else would he want to suggest that he actually thinks that the index finger should be 'ruled' by fire???:

Christopher wrote: "Now, I know that some of you are going to say: "but the index finger is ruled by water, which is an internal element"... in which case you get my reply: "Aha! so another argument for considering the index finger as being ruled by the fire element then!!""

I can only guess that Christopher must have recognized that there is an inconsistency inside the elemental system, and thus he probably made the suggestion to step over the inconsistency.

You need to understand the context of some of the quotes reproduced here from the cybercafe. They came at a time when we had all resigned from the C.Soc after we found out the truth about Terry Dukes. It was a very difficult time, and we were trying to decide which of his teachings were correct and which were nonsense. eg the quote about "ether must go" was with regard to what we were going to change in the teaching syllabus. Other comments were made about changing the nomenclature of various hand features, astrological associations, mounts, quadrants, distinction between major and minor lines......we were questioning everything! The sentence you've quoted would be like taking any random sentence from this discussion (where we are thinking aloud, trying to work things out) and bringing it up 12 years later. Yes there are arguments why index could be fire, but that's not appropriate to this discussion because it would take hours of long digressions explaining the elemental system to you.

Okay Lynn, you explained very well how to take Christopher's words. I am still fully aware of how things developed back then, so I will step-over Christopher's comment... but I think it does show how easily your teacher was inclined to step over a 'fundamental inconsistency' (which he does not rationalize by pointing out to the philosophic perspective of the graduated materiality that the elemental system presents).

For me it is especially interesting to see that in your comment you confirmed the part of Christopher's comment: "...water, which is an internal element", since you have now described this principle:

"earth & fire are more outer and air & water are more inner".

(For the moment I will describe below the implications of this principle... which are usefull to explain your earlier input regarding radial = outer and ulnar = inner; however, then I will also describe/proof how these principles actually appear to be a violation of various fundamental principles described by Dukes: because Dukes described that each aspect of the hand possesses an inner and an outer aspect... and additionally he has also described in the chapter 'The fingers' (p. 80) how for the fingers the dorsal side relate to 'public' and the palmar side of the fingers relates to 'private' - so this could implicate that Dukes described how the dorsal side of the hand to 'outer world' and the inner side of the hand to 'inner world'!!)

Lynn, when I apply your rather simple principle to the radial side of the hand then we get a result that makes sense in the perspective of your (earlier?) view how the elemental system appears to describe that the radial side of the hand relates more to the outer world:

- lower radial palm = earth = more outer
- upper radial palm = fire = more outer
- index finger = water = more inner
- middle finger = earth = more outer

At first sight this appears to make sense (in the elemental perspective), because via this approach 3 out of 4 elements of the radial side get associated with the outer world - like you initially described.

And we can do the same for the ulnar side:

- lower ulnar palm = water = more inner
- upper ulnar palm = air = more inner
- pinky finger = air = more inner
- ring finger = fire = more outer

... At first sight the result also makes sense in the perspective that in the elemental system the ulnar side is associated with the inner world - according your (earlier?) view.

Interestingly, this 'inner' (ulnar) - 'outer' (radial) elemental division would suggests that 'air' should be recognized as the most 'inner' element... because both the air finger and the air palm quadrant are located at the 'inner' side of the hand!


However... now we should become aware why I had problems to understand/recognize these - what appear to be - rather simple principles, and...why you felt the need to arrive yesterday at your new exploring view:

"... the more I am thinking the palm represents the inner world and the fingers & thumb represent how we connect that to the outer world. "


Lynn, I think you made this move after I pointed out that in traditional palmistry the pinky finger is usually associated with 'communication' & 'relationships'... which is e.g. illustrated by the fact the so-called marriage/relationships lines are found at the palmar zone just below the pinky finger (and I think one could even argue that the archetype of Mercurius is the most 'outward' AND 'active' of the classic Roman archetypes).

After I pointed out this you wrote: "I see what you are saying about the pinky finger... "

Lynn wrote:...
I see what you are saying about pinky. But I think maybe clutching at straws re moon reflecting light of outer world & our senses. You even gave proof that the senses are widespread thru the hand when you posted the cortical homunculus!

day dreaming thinking The more I think about all this (forgetting about conscious/subconscious) the more I am thinking the palm represents the inner world and the fingers & thumb represent how we connect that to the outer world. I said this originally about the thumb, but I think the fingers can also be considered separately when looking at the divisions of the hand / PALM.


And before I point out to this fundamental problem (resulting from a comparison between the elemental system and the traditional approach) regarding the pinky finger, I had already point out that I spotted a likewise problem regard the thumb (I have quoted from Dukes, Fincham & Hirsch and described that the elemental principles used for especially the 2nd phalange of the thumb indicate that the elemental approach does not vary much from the classic principle where this phalange is associated with 'thinking'... which is an 'inner' function (of course).


Lynn, I fully understand that the elemental principles of the 'graduated materiality', which leads to the approach to apply the element to different levels of the hand (and different levels of life).

Now, regarding what you have described so far... it appears that regarding 'inner' and 'outer', before this discussion began you had been using 2 principles regarding 'inner' and 'outer':

- Principle 1:
Radial = outer world, ulnar = inner world

- Principle 2:
Earth + fire = more outer, air + water = more inner

The side-effect is:
- the index finger gets associated with outer world + more inner... which appears to be a contradiction;
- and the ring finger get associated with inner world + more outer.... which also appears to be a contradiction.

Now, I understand how you try to rationalize this by pointing out to the philosophy of the elemental system.

But Dukes starts with describing the 4 elements as follows (p.31):

Earth = Matter / Systematization
Fire = Time / Evaluation
Water = Energy / Communication
Air = Space / Consciousness

I think it's hard to relate these principles to 'inner' and 'outer', though by principle one should argue that:

- 'Matter' should probably be connected with the outer world (one could say that the earth finger and the palmar earth quadrant follow principle 1)
- 'Communication' should be connected with the outer world (one could say that the water finger does follow principle 1, but the palmar water quadrant does not follow principle 1);
- And 'consciousness' should be connected with the inner world (one could say that both the air finger and the palmar air quadrant follow principle 1).

I think it is hard to associate the other terms with inner & outer; but I think I have now described how the connection between water and 'communication' (as described by Dukes)... via the water ulnar quadrant of the palm explains why it is problematic to associate the ulnar side of the hand with the inner world.


So, I would like to point out here that Dukes' approach to the elements does not include any clear division regarding the inner- and outer side of the hand, because Dukes writes in the chapter 'The principle of graduated materiality' (page 27):

"When we observe hands we must be aware that each function we can see represented in them possesses an inner and an outer aspects. Each line representing an outer manifestation of consciousness and also has a line reflecting an inner manifestation."

So, by principle... the elemental system is NOT compatible with any strict division regarding any inner- and/or outer side of the hand - simply because by principle all 4 elements are found on each side of the hand, in the fingers and in the palm!


The only principle used by Dukes for the radial-ulnar division is the division of 'active' versus 'passive' (but it appears that this should definitely not be associated with any division of inner versus outer).

This confirms what was already clear for me: WATER is associated with 'communication', and since 'communication' by principle goes via the outer world it does not appear to make much sense to see the consequence that in the radial-ulnar approach communication then also would get associated the with the inner world via the water quadrant of the palm... which could then be described as a fundamental inconsistency regarding what the principle of communication really implicates - wikipedia describes communication as "the activity of conveying information through the exchange of thoughts, messages, or information, as by speech, visuals, signals, writing, or behavior." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication)

Maybe this could explain why you felt yesterday the urge to write:

"Well, maybe the whole hand is our inner world! Wink "

Lynn, how does this sound to you?

I think I have now solved your major problem regarding the 'inner-outer' aspect presented in my picture... because I could argue now that since in elemental chirology each part of the hand is assumed to posses an inner- and an outer aspect, and therefore we can no longer speak of a clear fundamental contradiction between my picture and the elemental system!!!

cheers

(I think my writing above illustrates that I have at least made some progress during this discussion regarding how to understand & apply the fundamental princples of the elemental system... but I do think that the philosophy of the elemental system - which describes how the elements work out on various levels - should not be used as a general, unspecific rationalization when the principles appear to contradict)




Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:29 pm

Kiran.Katawa wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Kiran.Katawa wrote:Martijn,
While reading your first para, I felt that you understood what I was trying to describe. But, at the end, you mis-read me or left out some points Smile.

The examples I gave was to show: "how one can create arguments regarding how (possibly) any line can be associated with both the inner- and outer world."

What is your view on: As already mentioned here, the palm as a whole represents all that is inside of us. The division indicates whether we are conscious of that energy or not. However, irrespective of whether I am conscious or not, the energy seeks an outlet to get expressed in my life and/ or in the world. Then, how can this be used ( the expression of energy in the life and/or in the world) for the division of the palm?


Kiran, regarding your 2nd sentence.... I think you misunderstood the intend of my earlier point: with those words I meant to describe that one can create associative arguments (which eventually might result in inconsistencies) and one create funamental arguments (which should never result in incosistencies).

Be aware, the human mind can run in any direction... fundamental arguments will point out whether the mind runs in the right- (based on philosophical reality) or wrong direction (via arbitrary associations).

So, it is easy to create an argument, but when the argument does not pass a fundamental analysis... the the argument can be rejected.
Thumbs up! I understand your intentions and efforts in this direction Martijn.

Thanks for your understanding Kiran... I conclude that I have to continue working on describing things in my picture with clean & objective arguments.

Thanks!

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:39 pm

Lynn wrote:
I think this clearly confirms that there is an inconsistency in the elemental approach.
or is the inconsistency in your understanding of the elemental approach? (or maybe I don't explain it clearly enough).

Dear Lynn,

I can now finally present you a clear example directly taken from Dukes' work that serves as an example where I think one can hardly deny that there are inconsistencies included in Dukes' writings about the fundamentals of the elemental system:

- On page 31 Dukes writes:
"Water = Energy / Communication"

- But on page 57 Dukes writes in table 3:
"Mercury => Air => Key Attribute: Communication and hermeneutics".

I think I can only read this as that in the first description communication is directly linked with 'water', and in the second description communication is directly linked with 'air'!

Please?

PS. Now, I realize that one can start reasoning via associations that 'communication' has many dimensions... but please be aware that Dukes is describing here some fundamentals, and regarding this example I think you'll probably not be able to deny that this apparent inconsistancy is not explained by Dukes at all. Correct?

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:29 pm

Kiran.Katawa wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Kiran.Katawa wrote:Martijn,
While reading your first para, I felt that you understood what I was trying to describe. But, at the end, you mis-read me or left out some points Smile.

The examples I gave was to show: "how one can create arguments regarding how (possibly) any line can be associated with both the inner- and outer world."

What is your view on: As already mentioned here, the palm as a whole represents all that is inside of us. The division indicates whether we are conscious of that energy or not. However, irrespective of whether I am conscious or not, the energy seeks an outlet to get expressed in my life and/ or in the world. Then, how can this be used ( the expression of energy in the life and/or in the world) for the division of the palm?


Kiran, regarding your 2nd sentence.... I think you misunderstood the intend of my earlier point: with those words I meant to describe that one can create associative arguments (which eventually might result in inconsistencies) and one create funamental arguments (which should never result in incosistencies).

Be aware, the human mind can run in any direction... fundamental arguments will point out whether the mind runs in the right- (based on philosophical reality) or wrong direction (via arbitrary associations).

So, it is easy to create an argument, but when the argument does not pass a fundamental analysis... the the argument can be rejected.
Thumbs up! I understand your intentions and efforts in this direction Martijn.

Martijn, could you explain what is "philosophical reality" as it seems like a contradiction in and of itself?

Did you know that the function of thinking itself is brain cells making associations/connections?

In other words, I'm not really sure what you meant by the statement in bold. If associative thinking is less valid than philosophical thinking when it comes to modern handreading then we are doomed here. Wink

p.s. Please try not to use wikipedia for your answer.

Patti

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:43 pm

RishiRahul wrote:
Patti wrote:

This slicing and dicing of the hand into complete sections and quadrants of pure life essence is only a method for trying to divide a moving, pulsing, multidirectional spectrum into boxes or compartments of energies. But, doing this is a human mind's limited break down of something much greater and much more whole. Systems that use such labeling are basic learning systems on how to combine the various pieces and obtain various results. It's is like mixing and matching colors. These systems should be used as a tool or stepping stone to advance to the mixing and matching by quick analysis/association/intuition process that comes to those that actively practice in this field.

Imagine trying to do to the heart what you're doing here to the hand and even in the compartmentalized brain it is becoming more known that the brain is not as divided as it once was thought to be.


A wonderful & very appropriate narrative of what Practical Palmistry & Palmreading is all about.

Rather a narrative for advanced handreaders/palmists....!

Which is why I always mention that in crafts, such as this, the 'black & white logic of 2+2= may not be 4 may not happen.

I was having the same problem of expressing this is in astrology forums also, but unfortunately my eNGLISH expressions are not good enough to explain this SO WELL.

RishiRahul

Thank you Rishi!! flower

What I realized after I had written that, is that what is happening in this discussion is a rearranging of the pre-diced sections. Instead of starting with the actual hand itself, there seems to be a moving around of the already labeled pieces and parts and trying to make sense of them. When they may have been mislabeled in the first place or it was a toss up as to how to label them. lol!

Yes, when you reach the advanced stage you are at the place where the experts in the past thought they could label the hands and make a map for everyone else to see what they see. The maps are 2 dimensional and meant to trigger associations. They are just someone's philosophical reality based on the associations they had made. Wink

sunny

Patti

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:00 pm

Patti wrote:
Patti wrote:
Thumbs up! I understand your intentions and efforts in this direction Martijn.

Martijn, could you explain what is "philosophical reality" as it seems like a contradiction in and of itself?

Did you know that the function of thinking itself is brain cells making associations/connections?

In other words, I'm not really sure what you meant by the statement in bold. If associative thinking is less valid than philosophical thinking when it comes to modern handreading then we are doomed here. Wink

p.s. Please try not to use wikipedia for your answer.

Hi Patti,

My use of the words 'philosophical reality' was just an attempt to refer to 'reasoning via (established) philosophical principles'.

I think in this topic we are discussing the fundamental principles (used in the hand reading literature). And because we are aware that the literature includes some contradictive elements (not only regarding the topic that we are discussing here) therefore I think it is important en maybe even necessary to use proper reasoning only.

This should help us to avoid that any 'yes' can at any time become a 'no' via personal associations, because associative reasoning can easily violate an established philosophic principle.

wave

PS. Patti, don't worry... I am not proposing 'proper reasoning' as a new standard for recognize 'modern hand reading' in general; again, I am only proposing 'proper reasoning' to find/describe the similarities (and differences) regarding the key-elements of various hand reading systems.

(In general Wikipedia is a useful independent tool to find a quick detailed summary of the nature of most philosophical/psychology principles)

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

Martijn (admin)
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http://www.handresearch.com

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