Your opinion & share...
Search
 
 

Display results as :
 


Rechercher Advanced Search

Who is online?
In total there are 36 users online :: 0 Registered, 0 Hidden and 36 Guests

None

[ View the whole list ]


Most users ever online was 293 on Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:22 am
Moderators & partners

• Discover the Modern Hand Reading Forum partners:

Would you like to see your website listed?

Modern Hand Reading Forum Partners

Pointing finger: check this out!

Statistics
We have 4811 registered users
The newest registered user is Adam8888

Our users have posted a total of 41190 messages in 3982 subjects
Recommendations

• The FREE hand reading services at the Modern Hand Reading Forum are being continued in 2015 with the assistance of Google adsense!


Pointing finger: check this out!



Google+
MAJOR HAND READING SYNONYMS
Palmistry, Palm Reading, Hand Analysis, Chirology & Chiromancy.

Learn how to read hands according the Modern Hand Reading paradigm & you can use this forum as your palm reading guide!

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Page 6 of 43 Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7 ... 24 ... 43  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:36 pm

Patti wrote:Perhaps to you my thoughts seem associative and related to doing readings. Yes, absolutely I can say most of my methods I use in reading hands have evolved over the years from interaction with hundreds and hundreds of live samples to observe in and out of their habitats. Smile I definitely have come to not base my readings and interpretations on *applied meanings*. Archetypes, elements and labels are mostly just that for me, labels and memory triggers.

This slicing and dicing of the hand into complete sections and quadrants of pure life essence is only a method for trying to divide a moving, pulsing, multidirectional spectrum into boxes or compartments of energies. But, doing this is a human mind's limited break down of something much greater and much more whole. Systems that use such labeling are basic learning systems on how to combine the various pieces and obtain various results. It's is like mixing and matching colors. These systems should be used as a tool or stepping stone to advance to the mixing and matching by quick analysis/association/intuition process that comes to those that actively practice in this field.

Imagine trying to do to the heart what you're doing here to the hand and even in the compartmentalized brain it is becoming more known that the brain is not as divided as it once was thought to be.

Martijn, I will answer your question with a quote from one of your own web pages:

http://palmreadingperspectives.wordpress.com/tag/jung/

Aristotle, the Greek philosopher said about the hand:

“… (the hand) is the organ of the organs, the active agent of the passive powers




Patti, my question was:

"how can you describe a cognitive function (such as 'will' and 'logic/reason', which are both know as aspects of the 'inner world') to be representing a part of the 'outer world'?"

I don't see how the Aristotle quote ("… (the hand) is the organ of the organs, the active agent of the passive powers") could become helpfull regarding my question.

My question relates to the two phalanges of the thumb only, while the Aristotle quote relates to the full hand.

scratch

PS. thinking Patti, I could also invite you to answer this alternative question:

If you think the pinky is related to both the inner- and outer world, which principles are you using to describe it's connection with the inner world?

(I am asking because usually the pinky is associated with the archetype of mercurius, featured with principles/key-words: 'communication' & 'relationships'; Dukes also uses the term 'hermeneutics'. So the connection of the pinky with the outer world is very obvious... therefore I would like to invite you to describe how you think that connect it connects with the inner world - preferably via principles/key-words)

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5105
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:43 pm

I wonder why this discussion has become reduced to the very thing you pointed out it shouldn't in your first comment.

When this topic gets reduced to philosophical viewpoints and opinions, this thread will become endless and pointless.

There are some good points in the book "The Philosopher's Toolkit" that give another view as to what this thread has become.

The section on Realist - Non-Realist (which discusses 'philosophical realism') gives an example with this statement:

"In 1628 William Harvey invented the circulation of the heart."

Actually he discovered what the heart did, and did not invent circulation.

This is what is happening here. The hand maps (inventions) are being mistaken for discoveries.

Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:31 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti, my question was:

"how can you describe a cognitive function (such as 'will' and 'logic/reason', which are both know as aspects of the 'inner world') to be representing a part of the 'outer world'?"

I don't see how the Aristotle quote ("… (the hand) is the organ of the organs, the active agent of the passive powers") could become helpfull regarding my question.

My question relates to the two phalanges of the thumb only, while the Aristotle quote relates to the full hand.

scratch

PS. thinking Patti, I could also invite you to answer this alternative question:

If you think the pinky is related to both the inner- and outer world, which principles are you using to describe it's connection with the inner world?

(I am asking because usually the pinky is associated with the archetype of mercurius, featured with principles/key-words: 'communication' & 'relationships'; Dukes also uses the term 'hermeneutics'. So the connection of the pinky with the outer world is very obvious... therefore I would like to invite you to describe how you think that connect it connects with the inner world - preferably via principles/key-words)



I don't really use in practice the terms "inner/outer and conscious/subconscious". I don't use the elements for references.

The little fingers (and the thumbs) are the last to finish development. In development, if there is a lot of construction material, you get bigger and if there is less material, the resulting product is smaller. A robust human would therefore be one that has enough material and time to complete a proper balance in growth. A weaker being is one that is likely deficient in some area and must learn to compensate for this imbalance.

The little finger is associated with the lower chakras. This area of the body relates to our reproduction organs and a major source of elimination. Very often malformations here (little finger and mount below) relate to malformations in these organs and sometimes the lower limbs. Sexual communication is the most personal and private form of communication but for those who make it their profession it becomes less intimate and easier than personal conversation. It's about the degree a person is willing to expose what makes them feel vulnerable.

Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  RishiRahul on Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:40 pm

Patti wrote:
RishiRahul wrote:
Patti wrote:

This slicing and dicing of the hand into complete sections and quadrants of pure life essence is only a method for trying to divide a moving, pulsing, multidirectional spectrum into boxes or compartments of energies. But, doing this is a human mind's limited break down of something much greater and much more whole. Systems that use such labeling are basic learning systems on how to combine the various pieces and obtain various results. It's is like mixing and matching colors. These systems should be used as a tool or stepping stone to advance to the mixing and matching by quick analysis/association/intuition process that comes to those that actively practice in this field.

Imagine trying to do to the heart what you're doing here to the hand and even in the compartmentalized brain it is becoming more known that the brain is not as divided as it once was thought to be.


A wonderful & very appropriate narrative of what Practical Palmistry & Palmreading is all about.

Rather a narrative for advanced handreaders/palmists....!

Which is why I always mention that in crafts, such as this, the 'black & white logic of 2+2= may not be 4 may not happen.

I was having the same problem of expressing this is in astrology forums also, but unfortunately my eNGLISH expressions are not good enough to explain this SO WELL.

RishiRahul

Thank you Rishi!! flower

What I realized after I had written that, is that what is happening in this discussion is a rearranging of the pre-diced sections. Instead of starting with the actual hand itself, there seems to be a moving around of the already labeled pieces and parts and trying to make sense of them. When they may have been mislabeled in the first place or it was a toss up as to how to label them. lol!

Yes, when you reach the advanced stage you are at the place where the experts in the past thought they could label the hands and make a map for everyone else to see what they see. The maps are 2 dimensional and meant to trigger associations. They are just someone's philosophical reality based on the associations they had made. Wink

sunny

Hi Patty & others,

A question has slowly emerged in my mind after going again through this thread.

This 'inner'/'outer' & similar discussions do help much in theory; but how is it useful in the practical palmistry?

And certainly, the Craft of Palmistry, & other similar crafts, should have some use.
The practical use being more relevant in the modern world??!!?

RishiRahul

P.S:= I share a part of discussion on astrology/any divinatory craft like palmistry in the forum I am moderator of:==
RohinRanjan=BUT thereafter we must not remain SLAVES to those shackles and must not lose the two WINGS: Logic and Imagination! Imagination is a wide cloud but within it also lies Intuition!
Rishi=I hope this wriiten wouldnot fall in copyright rules, if I use it elsewhere....
The above written is a 'Whammy'!



RishiRahul

RishiRahul

Posts : 109
Join date : 2011-11-22

Back to top Go down

Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:45 pm

Thanks Patti,

Yes, sexual communication is the most personal and private form of communication; so, despite what people associate with 'intimacy', intimate relationships are a form of interpersonal communication... and thus relate to the outer world.

However, 'intimacy' itself concerns a feeling (which of course relates to the inner world) - but one can speak of a close affective connection with another person as a result of a bond.

Johnny Fincham associates the pinky finger with a specific form of 'dialogue' (which requires the presence of a person in the outer world). So, despite that feelings are involved with 'intimacy'... it does require the outer world (another person) to exist.


So, I still find it hard to relate the pinky finger with the inner world. And by the way, Johnny Fincham's name for the pinky finger - his speaks of the 'Antenna finger' - is a nice illustration of the fact that the pinky finger usually is associated with issues that relate to the outer world.

As far as I know, only Arnold Holtzman presents a view where the little finger is directly associated with the inner world; he speaks of 'the inner image of self'... but I have no idea how Holtzman arrived at this perception, and I find it rather unusual to see that his description looks very similar to how the usual associations regarding the index finger - so we can hardly connect his work with the works of other authors in the field of hand reading.

(Ed Campbell describes for the pinky: "The little finger deals with close personal relationships, including parental relationships, intimate love, and sex. To these areas add possible gifts with music, speach, language, and other communications, and traditionally, as Mercury was the god of thieves, business." - All relate to the outer world)

However, since I realize that Holtzman is talking about a psychoanalytic perspective it is hard to get a grip on his use of language (even for a me as an academic educated psychologist).

Anyway, Patti thanks for your answer! Thumb up



___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5105
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:32 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:Thanks Patti,

Yes, sexual communication is the most personal and private form of communication; so, despite what people associate with 'intimacy', intimate relationships are a form of interpersonal communication... and thus relate to the outer world.

However, 'intimacy' itself concerns a feeling (which of course relates to the inner world) - but one can speak of a close affective connection with another person as a result of a bond.

Johnny Fincham associates the pinky finger with a specific form of 'dialogue' (which requires the presence of a person in the outer world). So, despite that feelings are involved with 'intimacy'... it does require the outer world (another person) to exist.


So, I still find it hard to relate the pinky finger with the inner world. And by the way, Johnny Fincham's name for the pinky finger - his speaks of the 'Antenna finger' - is a nice illustration of the fact that the pinky finger usually is associated with issues that relate to the outer world.

As far as I know, only Arnold Holtzman presents a view where the little finger is directly associated with the inner world; he speaks of 'the inner image of self'... but I have no idea how Holtzman arrived at this perception, and I find it rather unusual to see that his description looks very similar to how the usual associations regarding the index finger - so we can hardly connect his work with the works of other authors in the field of hand reading.

(Ed Campbell describes for the pinky: "The little finger deals with close personal relationships, including parental relationships, intimate love, and sex. To these areas add possible gifts with music, speach, language, and other communications, and traditionally, as Mercury was the god of thieves, business." - All relate to the outer world)

However, since I realize that Holtzman is talking about a psychoanalytic perspective it is hard to get a grip on his use of language (even for a me as an academic educated psychologist).

Anyway, Patti thanks for your answer! Thumb up



I think you missed my point:

It's about the degree a person is willing to expose what makes them feel vulnerable.

The 'exposure' is an outer expression of the inner state of being vulnerable. That holds true for every aspect of the hand. Like the analogy Kiran provided. There are switches (inner/outer) in every room, Here you are speaking of the 'room', the little finger.

<edit> (In regards to holding true for every aspect of the hand, as we move in the spectrum toward the thumb the energy shifts from vulnerability to empowerment. A willingness to expose/present how much force and in what manner to take what they want from the world, or impress upon the world their control/force/will/influence, is more related to the thumb side.)


Self expres​sion(communication) does not need an observer in order to communicate.

All fingers and thumb are antenna like, sending and receiving signals.

Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:38 pm

Patti wrote:
I think you missed my point:

It's about the degree a person is willing to expose what makes them feel vulnerable.

The 'exposure' is an outer expression of the inner state of being vulnerable. That holds true for every aspect of the hand. Like the analogy Kiran provided. There are switches (inner/outer) in every room, Here you are speaking of the 'room', the little finger.

<edit> (In regards to holding true for every aspect of the hand, as we move in the spectrum toward the thumb the energy shifts from vulnerability to empowerment. A willingness to expose/present how much force and in what manner to take what they want from the world, or impress upon the world their control/force/will/influence, is more related to the thumb side.)


Self expres​sion(communication) does not need an observer in order to communicate.

All fingers and thumb are antenna like, sending and receiving signals.

Patti, one can debate how to describe intimacy. I hope you allow me once more to refer to Wikipedia - the page which describes the components of an 'intimate relationship' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intimate_relationship) describes:

"Genuine intimacy in human relationships requires dialogue, transparency, vulnerability and reciprocity."

Yes, the aspect of 'vulnerability' is an essential aspect... but dialogue, transparency & reciprocity are essential as well, and thus the presence of another person (= outer world) is necessary.

Beyond the info provided by Wikipedia, I think we should also be aware that feelings of vulnerability in isolation (without the presence of another person) can also very well be the result of neurotic tendencies - which more relate to the personality-structure of a person.

So, yes... 'vulnerability' is one of the key-aspects of intimacy, but there are a few other aspects required as well - which all appear to indicate that the presence of (or communication with) another person is required to CREATE intimacy!


Thank you for sharing your perceptions regarding this specific aspect of the pinky!

Thumb up

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5105
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:46 pm

Vulnerability is related to more than intimacy.

i.e. It can relate to things like honesty and being straightforward or not. People lie at times to cover up or avoid revealing the simplest things because they cannot come up with the courage or whatever to speak up. Some people find admitting their mistakes makes them feel vulnerable. These things vary in the moment, situation and the person.


Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:38 am

Patti wrote:Vulnerability is related to more than intimacy.

i.e. It can relate to things like honesty and being straightforward or not. People lie at times to cover up or avoid revealing the simplest things because they cannot come up with the courage or whatever to speak up. Some people find admitting their mistakes makes them feel vulnerable. These things vary in the moment, situation and the person.


Sure Patti, I recognize how your description relates to the core-aspect of 'vulnerability'.

However, while 'intimacy' and 'relationships' have been associated frequently with the pinky... I think 'vulnerability' is only associated with a short pinky. So, I could here argue here that 'vulnerability' could also result from problems with intimacy (and/or relationships).

But as far as I know, as a quality 'vulnerability' has not directly been associated with the pinky in general.

However, Patti maybe you know a source which connects 'vulnerability' with the pinky - without the reference that it can result from a short pinky?


PS. Not sure that I have explained this well enough... basically, I think we can discriminate two types of 'vulnerability': 1) vulnerability as a QUALITY associated with a normal level of intimacy; 2) vulnerability as an INABILITY, often resulting from dealing with problems related to intimacy (or other issues).

I think the descriptions at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulnerability) suggest that the word is usually associated with the latter.

scratch What is your thought on this Patti?
Can you associate your thoughts with one of the 2 types that I described? Or maybe both?

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5105
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:47 am

Why quote a source? My experience is my resource.

Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:00 am

Patti wrote:Why quote a source? My experience is my resource.

Sure, I can explain my request:

I asked for a source because I wonder whether you know any hand reading authors who associate 'vulnerability' with the pinky. So far I am not aware of such authors, but if you can give me just 1 author... then this would confirm that your perception has spread in the field of hand reading.

(I hope you understand that I am trying to avoid that we focus too much on associations of individuals that so far have never been described in the books at all).

I hope you don't mind me for asking?

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5105
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:16 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:Why quote a source? My experience is my resource.

Sure, I can explain my request:

I asked for a source because I wonder whether you know any hand reading authors who associate 'vulnerability' with the pinky. So far I am not aware of such authors, but if you can give me just 1 author... then this would confirm that your perception has spread in the field of hand reading.

(I hope you understand that I am trying to avoid that we focus too much on associations of individuals that so far have never been described in the books at all).

I hope you don't mind me for asking?

Perhaps Mark Seltman would join the discussion...?

http://blog.markseltman.com/2012/09/25/palmistry-and-values/

I used to say to my palmistry students, “It’s not what you see, but what you say and how you say it that matters”. It’s amazing how many kids ask, “Will I be rich and famous?” In response to a Thinking type, I may ask, “Will satisfaction and fulfillment in your relationships and career be enough for you?” I might say to a Feeling type, “You’ll look back one day and realize that your greatest riches resulted from being vulnerable and intimate with your family and friends.”

I get the feeling he has come to a similar realization of vulnerability and people's abilities in varying degrees to expose themselves. Although in this quote he is not referring to particular parts of hands.

Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:36 am

Patti wrote:
Perhaps Mark Seltman would join the discussion...?

http://blog.markseltman.com/2012/09/25/palmistry-and-values/

I used to say to my palmistry students, “It’s not what you see, but what you say and how you say it that matters”. It’s amazing how many kids ask, “Will I be rich and famous?” In response to a Thinking type, I may ask, “Will satisfaction and fulfillment in your relationships and career be enough for you?” I might say to a Feeling type, “You’ll look back one day and realize that your greatest riches resulted from being vulnerable and intimate with your family and friends.”

I get the feeling he has come to a similar realization of vulnerability and people's abilities in varying degrees to expose themselves. Although in this quote he is not referring to particular parts of hands.

Thanks Patti, on his blog Mark connects the word 'vulnerable' twice with the water hand type (he calls it 'feeling types').

Coincidently Mark wrote about the pinky finger in his latest blog-post; he e.g. talks about communication + wisdom + technical + language + family + sexual potentials, and for the short pinky he talks about 'trust' in the perspective of 'real intimacy' so that relates again to the sharing & the outer world (he does not talk about any other synonym for vulnerability/vulnerable at all):
http://blog.markseltman.com/2013/01/29/palmistry-and-the-pinky-finger/

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5105
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:42 am

While working with Liz Hallows on her research with the MBTI (Myers Briggs Type Indicator) personality profiler it became very clear that we express ourselves largely based on preferences.

We gravitate to what nourishes us and retreat from what causes discomfort. This moving toward what nourishes us, can empower us. We retreat to protect our vulnerabilities.

This vulnerability and empowerment relates to the degrees to which a person feels capable of 'putting themselves out there' as well as letting outsiders in. This involves the entire hand (wholly and compartmentalized) and the concept of polarities.



Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:57 pm

This came across my Twitter feed:

http://www.ovimagazine.com/art/9648

Let's look at Quantum Palmistry
by Dr. Yoshifumi Harada
2013-02-05 09:32:19

We're on a similar wavelength or perhaps our discussion inspired this blog post.

study

Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

The witness

Post  knox gillespie on Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:22 am

Has anyone written that the thumb is the source of the witness, THE I , that watches , what memories are running , counter will to an action that is about to be begun, the quiet watcher over ones whole mindscape. Who sees the joy inside and out, with no opposite. The knower of the field.

knox gillespie

Posts : 50
Join date : 2011-04-24
Age : 67
Location : California

http://www.Porcenova.com

Back to top Go down

Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:23 am

knox gillespie wrote:Has anyone written that the thumb is the source of the witness, THE I , that watches , what memories are running , counter will to an action that is about to be begun, the quiet watcher over ones whole mindscape. Who sees the joy inside and out, with no opposite. The knower of the field.

Yes Knox, I have mentioned the 'I' in the first post (see the list of synonyms). Anyway, thank you for your interesting description!

wave

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5105
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:23 pm

Patti wrote:This came across my Twitter feed:

http://www.ovimagazine.com/art/9648

Let's look at Quantum Palmistry
by Dr. Yoshifumi Harada
2013-02-05 09:32:19

We're on a similar wavelength or perhaps our discussion inspired this blog post.

study

For some reason I'm not seeing any content on that page, only menus. Tried a google search but still nothing showing when I try the cached page.

___________________________________________
Lynn
www.handanalysis.co.uk

Lynn

Posts : 2354
Join date : 2010-07-24
Location : Devon, England

http://www.handanalysis.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:55 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:
I think this clearly confirms that there is an inconsistency in the elemental approach.
or is the inconsistency in your understanding of the elemental approach? (or maybe I don't explain it clearly enough).

Dear Lynn,

I can now finally present you a clear example directly taken from Dukes' work that serves as an example where I think one can hardly deny that there are inconsistencies included in Dukes' writings about the fundamentals of the elemental system:

- On page 31 Dukes writes:
"Water = Energy / Communication"

- But on page 57 Dukes writes in table 3:
"Mercury => Air => Key Attribute: Communication and hermeneutics".

I think I can only read this as that in the first description communication is directly linked with 'water', and in the second description communication is directly linked with 'air'!

Please?

PS. Now, I realize that one can start reasoning via associations that 'communication' has many dimensions... but please be aware that Dukes is describing here some fundamentals, and regarding this example I think you'll probably not be able to deny that this apparent inconsistancy is not explained by Dukes at all. Correct?

I don't think anyone denies that there are inconsistencies in Terry Dukes work.

Sorry Martijn I'm having difficulty following some of the arguments that you presented me with on Friday.

because Dukes described that each aspect of the hand possesses an inner and an outer aspect... and additionally he has also described in the chapter 'The fingers' (p. 80) how for the fingers the dorsal side relate to 'public' and the palmar side of the fingers relates to 'private' - so this could implicate that Dukes described how the dorsal side of the hand to 'outer world' and the inner side of the hand to 'inner world'!!)
Yes, correct that Dukes said that and I agree with it.

regarding
But Dukes starts with describing the 4 elements as follows (p.31):

Earth = Matter / Systematization
Fire = Time / Evaluation
Water = Energy / Communication
Air = Space / Consciousness

I have never used these. For example water=energy .... ALL the elements are forms of energy! Communication I would associate mainly with air element.



... the more I am thinking the palm represents the inner world and the fingers & thumb represent how we connect that to the outer world. "

Lynn, I think you made this move after I pointed out that in traditional palmistry the pinky finger is usually associated with 'communication' & 'relationships'...

Even tho the way I wrote it makes it sound like it just occurred to me, actually I've always made that association of the fingers & thumb connecting the rest of the hand with the outisde world. "If you think of the energy of the hand being expressed out through the fingers, horizontal lines on phalanges obstruct or block the energy flow." is taken from my teaching notes from 13 years ago. On page 1 of this discussion I said "I believe the thumb has the effect of integrating the rest of the hand and that the thumb is the final expression of all this combined energy out into the world." - again this has been my understanding for probably at least 15 years. So, I didn't just 'make a move' after your words last week!



___________________________________________
Lynn
www.handanalysis.co.uk

Lynn

Posts : 2354
Join date : 2010-07-24
Location : Devon, England

http://www.handanalysis.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:08 pm

Lynn wrote:
Patti wrote:This came across my Twitter feed:

http://www.ovimagazine.com/art/9648

Let's look at Quantum Palmistry
by Dr. Yoshifumi Harada
2013-02-05 09:32:19

We're on a similar wavelength or perhaps our discussion inspired this blog post.

study

For some reason I'm not seeing any content on that page, only menus. Tried a google search but still nothing showing when I try the cached page.

It seems to have gone missing. The link is still in Twitter when you search #palmistry in the search box, but the article seems to have gone missing. It spoke of the multi-directional and multi-dimensional energy of the hands. Leaned in the direction of how I see the hands, too and contained a lot of what has been posted here in the author's own words and perspective.

Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:40 pm

Patti wrote:
Lynn wrote:
For some reason I'm not seeing any content on that page, only menus. Tried a google search but still nothing showing when I try the cached page.

It seems to have gone missing. The link is still in Twitter when you search #palmistry in the search box, but the article seems to have gone missing. It spoke of the multi-directional and multi-dimensional energy of the hands. Leaned in the direction of how I see the hands, too and contained a lot of what has been posted here in the author's own words and perspective.

Thanks Patti, I couldn't find any of his articles that are listed in various links on google & on that website. But at least now I know it is not just my computer that isn't showing it. Thanks!

___________________________________________
Lynn
www.handanalysis.co.uk

Lynn

Posts : 2354
Join date : 2010-07-24
Location : Devon, England

http://www.handanalysis.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:32 pm

I've been away to Glastonbury for a couple of days and didn't have my palmistry head on! Hence when I first read recent posts and re-read some old ones, it made no sense to me at all! rolling on the floor I'm sorry there are so many posts on this thread that I would like to respond to, and had not time, hence I have focussed on Martijn's where he is addressing me specifically.

Martijn (admin) wrote:For me it is especially interesting to see that in your comment you confirmed the part of Christopher's comment: "...water, which is an internal element", since you have now described this principle:

"earth & fire are more outer and air & water are more inner".

I didn't exactly put this forward as a 'principle'. The principles we use in 5-element hand analysis are the principles of the elements as we can observe them in nature, in the world all around us.

The full quote above was "What we see most about people is their physical body and their actions (earth & fire). Their thoughts and emotions (air and water) are more hidden. So in this sense, earth & fire are more outer and air & water are more inner."
That's a general statement that you can apply for example when you observe people walking down the street. You can see earth and fire aspects of them (body shape and movement), you can't see their water & air (thoughts and emotions).
(But if someone was lying hidden under a quilt, loudly reciting poetry they'd written, their water (feelings) and air (communication) would be more 'outer'. Wink )

You quoted Dukes about
" the dorsal side relate to 'public' and the palmar side of the fingers relates to 'private' - so this could implicate that Dukes described how the dorsal side of the hand to 'outer world' and the inner side of the hand to 'inner world'!!)"
Yes. Again observe people in the street. You don't often see the palmar side of people's hands, you usually see the back of the hand. So the back of the hand is the more public (outer) face, the palmar side is the more private (inner) face.


Martijn (admin) wrote:
(For the moment I will describe below the implications of this principle... which are usefull to explain your earlier input regarding radial = outer and ulnar = inner; however, then I will also describe/proof how these principles actually appear to be a violation of various fundamental principles described by Dukes: because Dukes described that each aspect of the hand possesses an inner and an outer aspect.
Are you talking here about this quote from Dukes? "When we observe hands we must be aware that each function we can see represented in them possesses an inner and an outer aspects. Each line representing an outer manifestation of consciousness and also has a line reflecting an inner manifestation."

If so, he is not exactly saying that each aspect of the hand possesses an inner and an outer aspect (although I might be able to agree that it does!). He is saying that "each function we can see represented in them possesses an inner and an outer aspects. Each line representing an outer manifestation of consciousness and also has a line reflecting an inner manifestation."
eg major water line (heartline) also has the corresponding inner lines of upper minor water line (Girdle of venus), true minor water line (line of intuition), lower minor water line (via lasciva) - and incidentally for the main part these minor water lines are on the ulna side of the hand (which I class as more 'inner').

Lynn, when I apply your rather simple principle

I don't think these ideas are simple, I think they are very complex. I think other members of the C.Soc explain them much better than I do, I am limited by my short air line so I can't go into philosophical areas so easily.

OK from here on, you have lost me Martijn.
eg - middle finger = earth = more outer
But earth finger is half on radial side, half on ulna side, the balancing finger of the hand.
- index finger = water = more inner
No, because it is on radial side, in conjuction with the thumb it shows how we assert our inner desires & self / ego out to the world.
You don't seem to be taking into account that the water finger has 3 phalanges - water, fire, air. It also has a fingerprint that could be ruled by any element.
So the 'points' system you have tried to apply to all this, just doesn't make any sense to me!
You are the creator of 'multi-dimensional hand reading' yet you don't seem to be applying that 'mutli dimensional' way of thinking to the elements!

I'm not going to discuss Dukes
Earth = Matter / Systematization
Fire = Time / Evaluation
Water = Energy / Communication
Air = Space / Consciousness
because as I've already said, there is much in Dukes' book that I don't follow, and this is one example, because..... all the elements are some form of energy! I associate air more than water with communication. Evaluation I would also associate more with air element.

sorry, after that you lost me.

to the radial side of the hand then we get a result that makes sense in the perspective of your (earlier?) view how the elemental system appears to describe that the radial side of the hand relates more to the outer world:

- lower radial palm = earth = more outer
- upper radial palm = fire = more outer
- index finger = water = more inner
- middle finger = earth = more outer

At first sight this appears to make sense (in the elemental perspective), because via this approach 3 out of 4 elements of the radial side get associated with the outer world - like you initially described.

And we can do the same for the ulnar side:

- lower ulnar palm = water = more inner
- upper ulnar palm = air = more inner
- pinky finger = air = more inner
- ring finger = fire = more outer

... At first sight the result also makes sense in the perspective that in the elemental system the ulnar side is associated with the inner world - according your (earlier?) view.

Interestingly, this 'inner' (ulnar) - 'outer' (radial) elemental division would suggests that 'air' should be recognized as the most 'inner' element... because both the air finger and the air palm quadrant are located at the 'inner' side of the hand!


However... now we should become aware why I had problems to understand/recognize these - what appear to be - rather simple principles, and...why you felt the need to arrive yesterday at your new exploring view:

"... the more I am thinking the palm represents the inner world and the fingers & thumb represent how we connect that to the outer world. "


Lynn, I think you made this move after I pointed out that in traditional palmistry the pinky finger is usually associated with 'communication' & 'relationships'... which is e.g. illustrated by the fact the so-called marriage/relationships lines are found at the palmar zone just below the pinky finger (and I think one could even argue that the archetype of Mercurius is the most 'outward' AND 'active' of the classic Roman archetypes).

After I pointed out this you wrote: "I see what you are saying about the pinky finger... "

Lynn wrote:...
I see what you are saying about pinky. But I think maybe clutching at straws re moon reflecting light of outer world & our senses. You even gave proof that the senses are widespread thru the hand when you posted the cortical homunculus!

day dreaming thinking The more I think about all this (forgetting about conscious/subconscious) the more I am thinking the palm represents the inner world and the fingers & thumb represent how we connect that to the outer world. I said this originally about the thumb, but I think the fingers can also be considered separately when looking at the divisions of the hand / PALM.


And before I point out to this fundamental problem (resulting from a comparison between the elemental system and the traditional approach) regarding the pinky finger, I had already point out that I spotted a likewise problem regard the thumb (I have quoted from Dukes, Fincham & Hirsch and described that the elemental principles used for especially the 2nd phalange of the thumb indicate that the elemental approach does not vary much from the classic principle where this phalange is associated with 'thinking'... which is an 'inner' function (of course).


Lynn, I fully understand that the elemental principles of the 'graduated materiality', which leads to the approach to apply the element to different levels of the hand (and different levels of life).

Now, regarding what you have described so far... it appears that regarding 'inner' and 'outer', before this discussion began you had been using 2 principles regarding 'inner' and 'outer':

- Principle 1:
Radial = outer world, ulnar = inner world

- Principle 2:
Earth + fire = more outer, air + water = more inner

The side-effect is:
- the index finger gets associated with outer world + more inner... which appears to be a contradiction;
- and the ring finger get associated with inner world + more outer.... which also appears to be a contradiction.

Now, I understand how you try to rationalize this by pointing out to the philosophy of the elemental system.

But Dukes starts with describing the 4 elements as follows (p.31):

Earth = Matter / Systematization
Fire = Time / Evaluation
Water = Energy / Communication
Air = Space / Consciousness

I think it's hard to relate these principles to 'inner' and 'outer', though by principle one should argue that:

- 'Matter' should probably be connected with the outer world (one could say that the earth finger and the palmar earth quadrant follow principle 1)
- 'Communication' should be connected with the outer world (one could say that the water finger does follow principle 1, but the palmar water quadrant does not follow principle 1);
- And 'consciousness' should be connected with the inner world (one could say that both the air finger and the palmar air quadrant follow principle 1).

I think it is hard to associate the other terms with inner & outer; but I think I have now described how the connection between water and 'communication' (as described by Dukes)... via the water ulnar quadrant of the palm explains why it is problematic to associate the ulnar side of the hand with the inner world.


So, I would like to point out here that Dukes' approach to the elements does not include any clear division regarding the inner- and outer side of the hand, because Dukes writes in the chapter 'The principle of graduated materiality' (page 27):

"When we observe hands we must be aware that each function we can see represented in them possesses an inner and an outer aspects. Each line representing an outer manifestation of consciousness and also has a line reflecting an inner manifestation."

So, by principle... the elemental system is NOT compatible with any strict division regarding any inner- and/or outer side of the hand - simply because by principle all 4 elements are found on each side of the hand, in the fingers and in the palm!


The only principle used by Dukes for the radial-ulnar division is the division of 'active' versus 'passive' (but it appears that this should definitely not be associated with any division of inner versus outer).

This confirms what was already clear for me: WATER is associated with 'communication', and since 'communication' by principle goes via the outer world it does not appear to make much sense to see the consequence that in the radial-ulnar approach communication then also would get associated the with the inner world via the water quadrant of the palm... which could then be described as a fundamental inconsistency regarding what the principle of communication really implicates - wikipedia describes communication as "the activity of conveying information through the exchange of thoughts, messages, or information, as by speech, visuals, signals, writing, or behavior." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication)

Maybe this could explain why you felt yesterday the urge to write:

"Well, maybe the whole hand is our inner world! Wink "

Lynn, how does this sound to you?

I don't understand half of it, you lost me at some point.

I think I have now solved your major problem regarding the 'inner-outer' aspect presented in my picture... because I could argue now that since in elemental chirology each part of the hand is assumed to posses an inner- and an outer aspect, and therefore we can no longer speak of a clear fundamental contradiction between my picture and the elemental system!!!
cheers
OK Martijn, feel free not to include inner/outer in the labelling of your diagram with regard to your conclusions about 5-element hand analysis.
(edit)As you discount the 5-element system so much & have so many criticisms of it, I don't really understand why you are asking my opinion or trying to correlate your ideas with 5-element system? eg in this thumb discussion and in the hand shape discussion- where you even based your final diagram on elemental handshape, despite your many criticisms of the 5-element system? (/edit)

How does your diagram compare with traditional palmistry & inner/outer or active/passive sides of the hand? I mentioned earlier in this discussion that some authors talk about this disctinction (eg David Brandon-Jones, Sasha Fenton & Patti mentioned Julius Spier, there are probably more that we haven't mentioned) and why is radial Mars known as active mars whereas ulna Mars is passive Mars?

(I think my writing above illustrates that I have at least made some progress during this discussion regarding how to understand & apply the fundamental princples of the elemental system... but I do think that the philosophy of the elemental system - which describes how the elements work out on various levels - should not be used as a general, unspecific rationalization when the principles appear to contradict)
Sorry but I think you are still confused by many fundamental aspects & principles of the elemental system. But I give you credit for even beginning to try to understand Terry Dukes book! It is difficult to understand even when English is your first language (I needed a dictionary next to me when I first read it). Tho I would not recommend this book, too much nonsense in between the important sensible points.


___________________________________________
Lynn
www.handanalysis.co.uk

Lynn

Posts : 2354
Join date : 2010-07-24
Location : Devon, England

http://www.handanalysis.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:48 pm

Lynn wrote:...

because Dukes described that each aspect of the hand possesses an inner and an outer aspect... and additionally he has also described in the chapter 'The fingers' (p. 80) how for the fingers the dorsal side relate to 'public' and the palmar side of the fingers relates to 'private' - so this could implicate that Dukes described how the dorsal side of the hand to 'outer world' and the inner side of the hand to 'inner world'!!)
Yes, correct that Dukes said that and I agree with it.

...

Lynn, if we combine both elements presented by Dukes in the quote above... then one could say that Dukes sort of has described how every aspect of the hand has an 'inner' (represented by the palmar side) and an 'outer' (represented by the dorsal side).

But if you accept this as the starting point of the elemental system... then I think it becomes troublesome when one also adopts any view regarding radial- and ulnar side, simply because by principle this creates a contradiction regarding that starting point!

Are you able to visualize what I am saying here?

(Let me explain... if you would put a thin layer of yellow paint on the palmar side of the hand + a thin layer of blue paint on the dorsal side of the hand... and then do the same for in respective the radial side [palmar radial side + dorsal radial side] and the ulnar side of the hand [palmar ulnar side + dorsal ulnar side]... then some parts of the hand would become GREEN - which represent the zones where the contradiction becomes manifest! Does this make sense?)


Then Lynn, I also would like to point out the following:

I understand your theory regarding the thumb as an 'integrator' as a starting point.

However, with this starting point I think one can still apply the inner vs outer them on the other four fingers. Then, if you associate communication with air... it would make sense to associate the pinky + the palmar air quadrant with the outer world - because these represent the air zones of the hand and communication is by principle a matter that directly relates to the outer world!!!

And in this perspective, it would not make sense to associate the ulnar side of the hand with the inner world... because in the perspective of your starting point regarding thumb, you would have to specify that to that all four fingers + the palm sort of represent the inner world... so then you would not be speaking of the ulnar side, you are then speaking about the full hand except for the thumb!

Are you able to visualize what I am saying here?


NOTICE: Patti & I have searched for key-worlds in the hand analysis literature that associate the pinky with the inner world (because the classic key-words associated with the pinky finger - e.g. communication, relationships, intimacy - all appear to relate to the outer world).

But so far it appears that Patti & I could not identify any CLASSIC 'inner world' key-words that have been associated in the hand reading literature with the pinky finger. Maybe you are able to name one 'inner world' key-word that relates to the pinky? Or the archetype of mercurius?

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5105
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:12 am

Martijn, don't include me! There is plenty of 'published' material available with keywords associating the little finger with the 'inner self' (or equivalent terminology) such as this from Charlotte Wolff:




Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:50 am

Lynn wrote:I've been away to Glastonbury for a couple of days and didn't have my palmistry head on! Hence when I first read recent posts and re-read some old ones, it made no sense to me at all! rolling on the floor I'm sorry there are so many posts on this thread that I would like to respond to, and had not time, hence I have focussed on Martijn's where he is addressing me specifically.

Martijn (admin) wrote:For me it is especially interesting to see that in your comment you confirmed the part of Christopher's comment: "...water, which is an internal element", since you have now described this principle:

"earth & fire are more outer and air & water are more inner".

I didn't exactly put this forward as a 'principle'. The principles we use in 5-element hand analysis are the principles of the elements as we can observe them in nature, in the world all around us.

The full quote above was "What we see most about people is their physical body and their actions (earth & fire). Their thoughts and emotions (air and water) are more hidden. So in this sense, earth & fire are more outer and air & water are more inner."
That's a general statement that you can apply for example when you observe people walking down the street. You can see earth and fire aspects of them (body shape and movement), you can't see their water & air (thoughts and emotions).
(But if someone was lying hidden under a quilt, loudly reciting poetry they'd written, their water (feelings) and air (communication) would be more 'outer'. Wink )

You quoted Dukes about
" the dorsal side relate to 'public' and the palmar side of the fingers relates to 'private' - so this could implicate that Dukes described how the dorsal side of the hand to 'outer world' and the inner side of the hand to 'inner world'!!)"
Yes. Again observe people in the street. You don't often see the palmar side of people's hands, you usually see the back of the hand. So the back of the hand is the more public (outer) face, the palmar side is the more private (inner) face.


Martijn (admin) wrote:
(For the moment I will describe below the implications of this principle... which are usefull to explain your earlier input regarding radial = outer and ulnar = inner; however, then I will also describe/proof how these principles actually appear to be a violation of various fundamental principles described by Dukes: because Dukes described that each aspect of the hand possesses an inner and an outer aspect.
Are you talking here about this quote from Dukes? "When we observe hands we must be aware that each function we can see represented in them possesses an inner and an outer aspects. Each line representing an outer manifestation of consciousness and also has a line reflecting an inner manifestation."

If so, he is not exactly saying that each aspect of the hand possesses an inner and an outer aspect (although I might be able to agree that it does!). He is saying that "each function we can see represented in them possesses an inner and an outer aspects. Each line representing an outer manifestation of consciousness and also has a line reflecting an inner manifestation."
eg major water line (heartline) also has the corresponding inner lines of upper minor water line (Girdle of venus), true minor water line (line of intuition), lower minor water line (via lasciva) - and incidentally for the main part these minor water lines are on the ulna side of the hand (which I class as more 'inner').

Lynn, when I apply your rather simple principle

I don't think these ideas are simple, I think they are very complex. I think other members of the C.Soc explain them much better than I do, I am limited by my short air line so I can't go into philosophical areas so easily.

OK from here on, you have lost me Martijn.
eg - middle finger = earth = more outer
But earth finger is half on radial side, half on ulna side, the balancing finger of the hand.
- index finger = water = more inner
No, because it is on radial side, in conjuction with the thumb it shows how we assert our inner desires & self / ego out to the world.
You don't seem to be taking into account that the water finger has 3 phalanges - water, fire, air. It also has a fingerprint that could be ruled by any element.
So the 'points' system you have tried to apply to all this, just doesn't make any sense to me!
You are the creator of 'multi-dimensional hand reading' yet you don't seem to be applying that 'mutli dimensional' way of thinking to the elements!

I'm not going to discuss Dukes
Earth = Matter / Systematization
Fire = Time / Evaluation
Water = Energy / Communication
Air = Space / Consciousness
because as I've already said, there is much in Dukes' book that I don't follow, and this is one example, because..... all the elements are some form of energy! I associate air more than water with communication. Evaluation I would also associate more with air element.

sorry, after that you lost me.

to the radial side of the hand then we get a result that makes sense in the perspective of your (earlier?) view how the elemental system appears to describe that the radial side of the hand relates more to the outer world:

- lower radial palm = earth = more outer
- upper radial palm = fire = more outer
- index finger = water = more inner
- middle finger = earth = more outer

At first sight this appears to make sense (in the elemental perspective), because via this approach 3 out of 4 elements of the radial side get associated with the outer world - like you initially described.

And we can do the same for the ulnar side:

- lower ulnar palm = water = more inner
- upper ulnar palm = air = more inner
- pinky finger = air = more inner
- ring finger = fire = more outer

... At first sight the result also makes sense in the perspective that in the elemental system the ulnar side is associated with the inner world - according your (earlier?) view.

Interestingly, this 'inner' (ulnar) - 'outer' (radial) elemental division would suggests that 'air' should be recognized as the most 'inner' element... because both the air finger and the air palm quadrant are located at the 'inner' side of the hand!


However... now we should become aware why I had problems to understand/recognize these - what appear to be - rather simple principles, and...why you felt the need to arrive yesterday at your new exploring view:

"... the more I am thinking the palm represents the inner world and the fingers & thumb represent how we connect that to the outer world. "


Lynn, I think you made this move after I pointed out that in traditional palmistry the pinky finger is usually associated with 'communication' & 'relationships'... which is e.g. illustrated by the fact the so-called marriage/relationships lines are found at the palmar zone just below the pinky finger (and I think one could even argue that the archetype of Mercurius is the most 'outward' AND 'active' of the classic Roman archetypes).

After I pointed out this you wrote: "I see what you are saying about the pinky finger... "

Lynn wrote:...
I see what you are saying about pinky. But I think maybe clutching at straws re moon reflecting light of outer world & our senses. You even gave proof that the senses are widespread thru the hand when you posted the cortical homunculus!

day dreaming thinking The more I think about all this (forgetting about conscious/subconscious) the more I am thinking the palm represents the inner world and the fingers & thumb represent how we connect that to the outer world. I said this originally about the thumb, but I think the fingers can also be considered separately when looking at the divisions of the hand / PALM.


And before I point out to this fundamental problem (resulting from a comparison between the elemental system and the traditional approach) regarding the pinky finger, I had already point out that I spotted a likewise problem regard the thumb (I have quoted from Dukes, Fincham & Hirsch and described that the elemental principles used for especially the 2nd phalange of the thumb indicate that the elemental approach does not vary much from the classic principle where this phalange is associated with 'thinking'... which is an 'inner' function (of course).


Lynn, I fully understand that the elemental principles of the 'graduated materiality', which leads to the approach to apply the element to different levels of the hand (and different levels of life).

Now, regarding what you have described so far... it appears that regarding 'inner' and 'outer', before this discussion began you had been using 2 principles regarding 'inner' and 'outer':

- Principle 1:
Radial = outer world, ulnar = inner world

- Principle 2:
Earth + fire = more outer, air + water = more inner

The side-effect is:
- the index finger gets associated with outer world + more inner... which appears to be a contradiction;
- and the ring finger get associated with inner world + more outer.... which also appears to be a contradiction.

Now, I understand how you try to rationalize this by pointing out to the philosophy of the elemental system.

But Dukes starts with describing the 4 elements as follows (p.31):

Earth = Matter / Systematization
Fire = Time / Evaluation
Water = Energy / Communication
Air = Space / Consciousness

I think it's hard to relate these principles to 'inner' and 'outer', though by principle one should argue that:

- 'Matter' should probably be connected with the outer world (one could say that the earth finger and the palmar earth quadrant follow principle 1)
- 'Communication' should be connected with the outer world (one could say that the water finger does follow principle 1, but the palmar water quadrant does not follow principle 1);
- And 'consciousness' should be connected with the inner world (one could say that both the air finger and the palmar air quadrant follow principle 1).

I think it is hard to associate the other terms with inner & outer; but I think I have now described how the connection between water and 'communication' (as described by Dukes)... via the water ulnar quadrant of the palm explains why it is problematic to associate the ulnar side of the hand with the inner world.


So, I would like to point out here that Dukes' approach to the elements does not include any clear division regarding the inner- and outer side of the hand, because Dukes writes in the chapter 'The principle of graduated materiality' (page 27):

"When we observe hands we must be aware that each function we can see represented in them possesses an inner and an outer aspects. Each line representing an outer manifestation of consciousness and also has a line reflecting an inner manifestation."

So, by principle... the elemental system is NOT compatible with any strict division regarding any inner- and/or outer side of the hand - simply because by principle all 4 elements are found on each side of the hand, in the fingers and in the palm!


The only principle used by Dukes for the radial-ulnar division is the division of 'active' versus 'passive' (but it appears that this should definitely not be associated with any division of inner versus outer).

This confirms what was already clear for me: WATER is associated with 'communication', and since 'communication' by principle goes via the outer world it does not appear to make much sense to see the consequence that in the radial-ulnar approach communication then also would get associated the with the inner world via the water quadrant of the palm... which could then be described as a fundamental inconsistency regarding what the principle of communication really implicates - wikipedia describes communication as "the activity of conveying information through the exchange of thoughts, messages, or information, as by speech, visuals, signals, writing, or behavior." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication)

Maybe this could explain why you felt yesterday the urge to write:

"Well, maybe the whole hand is our inner world! Wink "

Lynn, how does this sound to you?

I don't understand half of it, you lost me at some point.

I think I have now solved your major problem regarding the 'inner-outer' aspect presented in my picture... because I could argue now that since in elemental chirology each part of the hand is assumed to posses an inner- and an outer aspect, and therefore we can no longer speak of a clear fundamental contradiction between my picture and the elemental system!!!
cheers
OK Martijn, feel free not to include inner/outer in the labelling of your diagram with regard to your conclusions about 5-element hand analysis.
(edit)As you discount the 5-element system so much & have so many criticisms of it, I don't really understand why you are asking my opinion or trying to correlate your ideas with 5-element system? eg in this thumb discussion and in the hand shape discussion- where you even based your final diagram on elemental handshape, despite your many criticisms of the 5-element system? (/edit)

How does your diagram compare with traditional palmistry & inner/outer or active/passive sides of the hand? I mentioned earlier in this discussion that some authors talk about this disctinction (eg David Brandon-Jones, Sasha Fenton & Patti mentioned Julius Spier, there are probably more that we haven't mentioned) and why is radial Mars known as active mars whereas ulna Mars is passive Mars?

(I think my writing above illustrates that I have at least made some progress during this discussion regarding how to understand & apply the fundamental princples of the elemental system... but I do think that the philosophy of the elemental system - which describes how the elements work out on various levels - should not be used as a general, unspecific rationalization when the principles appear to contradict)
Sorry but I think you are still confused by many fundamental aspects & principles of the elemental system. But I give you credit for even beginning to try to understand Terry Dukes book! It is difficult to understand even when English is your first language (I needed a dictionary next to me when I first read it). Tho I would not recommend this book, too much nonsense in between the important sensible points.


Lynn, thanks for making this suggestion not to include any inner/outer in my diagram regarding the elemental system.

Yes, basically I could argue here that both the elements water (Dukes) & air (you & Hirsch) are associated in the elemental system with 'communication'... and because 'communication' represents a core-issue that relates to the outer world, I think it would not make much sense if any elemental-student would associate the ulnar side directly with the inner world.

This observation of mine is sort of confirmed by Fincham's descriptions that 'communication' is an issue that relates to the pinky finger (he has named the pinky the 'Antenna of Communication')... and thus this finger should for this reason in the elemental system not be associated with the inner world.

And Dukes approach towards the dorsal/palmar side also provides illustrative support for my observation.


NOTICE: By the way, I could also point out here that Fred Gettings (who preceeded the work of Dukes) has presented an alternative elemental system... where the pinky finger e.g. gets associated with the element earth and the thumb with the element fire!???

It appears that the each of the elemental-authors have sort of presented a (slightly) different set of fundamentals, but it is not easy at all to see how much the works really differ from each other.

So far it appears that Hirsch's work is probably most representative for Christopher Jones' work (because Fincham's work also many includes other influences that go beyond the elmental approach... which could explain why he has developed his own vocabulary, e.g. he talks of 'palmistry'... and not 'chirology', etc.).


PS. Lynn, regarding your reference to the other authors... Sasha Fenton actually supports the view that the mount of moon relates to the senses; by the way, I already had made a reference to her work in this post (where I e.g. also described that Cheiro also has made this association between the mount of moon and the sense, and Cheiro also associated the thumb to be representing the 'intellectual factulties'... which also appears to refer to the inner world):
http://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t2419p45-the-thumb-represents-the-inner-essence-of-man#25553

By the way, regarding your question about 'active/passive'... to me those are rather abstract words, and since I am aware that authors have used contradictive models for that dimensions as well (e.g. Gettings associates the fingers with 'active' and the palm with 'passive') I have little interest to start a discussion about that dimension - especially since I think that the majority of the hand reading authors have not started using those words in their writings.

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5105
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

Page 6 of 43 Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7 ... 24 ... 43  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum