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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 8 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:10 pm

Patti wrote:I'm disappointed that your discussion boils down to selecting author's viewpoints that most match one's agenda. ...

Patti, I don't understand the origins of your disappointment... because I am willing to discuss the works of any author at any time - even when they don't match with the content of my charts!

For example, in my first post I had already mentioned the work of Holtzman as one of the authors that present a different perspective!!!


By the way, I still don't have a clear perception what you view really includes; because sometimes your comments suggest that you are working with the 'hollistic' idea that anything can be connected with any part of the hand at any time.

So, even though you have presented materials from the works of other authors... I am not sure that you are willing to associate your view with any of those!

I'll give you a short summary of your suggestions + my responses (most I had already given):

- You informed us that you have 'skimmed' through the work of Dukes; but you have also made various statements which suggest that you also do not work with elemental approach yourself.

- And you have once refered to the work of Spier; yes, he connects the thumb with the outer world (I was already aware of this before I started this topic)... but Spier only talks about two phalanges and he is using the traditional approach towards those 2 pahalanges: lower phalanges = reason, nail phalange = will... but he doesn't explain how he relates those qualities to the outer world. While from a psychological point of view... it is quite obvious that both qualities (reason + will) actually relate to the inner world!

- I also noticed that your hand-chart related to the German school represented by Hirschi & Hurliman which actually kind of confirms the chart that I presented... which I have already mentioned here: http://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t2419p45-the-thumb-represents-the-inner-essence-of-man#25563

- You also refered to Christopher Jones work... who described 'water' as "an internal element" in the perspective of the index finger (I have talked about the inconsistencies in the elemental system);

- You have refered to the work of Wolff who talked about the little finger in the perspective of sexuality - which I have related to the classic theme of 'intimacy', which is an issue that relates to the outer world;

- Sorry, I can not make much out of your reference to Holtzman's new book that you received... but I had already described that his vocabulary is quite different from the works of others and his context is a psychoanalytic perspective.

- While you have refered to Mark Seltman's work, you only mentioned his work in attempt to disprove my hypothesis that nearly all authors in the field associate the pinky with topics that relate to the outer world!


Patti, it's still sort of a mystery to me: which authors that you mentioned are representing you own view?

(So far I have the impression that much of your input in this topic became an attempt to 'oppose' the inner-outer view that is included in my chart... but I have not seen you proposing any authors that confirm you 'holistic' view that all parts of the hand relate to the inner and outer world. So far, I have the impression that Dukes' view regarding the palmar and dorsal side of the hand could come very close to your 'holistic' view... but, you also stated yourself that you don't really work with the elemental system at all. Patti, maybe you find it difficult to mention any authors that you consider as representative for you view??? scratch )

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Post  Patti on Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:37 pm

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 8 Delta_10

I've added a few more books to this collection since this graphic was made. My preference for hand reading material is mostly in the image at the upper left.

I'm very conscious of which books I reach for as credible resources when I'm wanting to compare viewpoints.

No, so far my ideas have not been combined into a palmistry book that is available on the market.
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Post  Patti on Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:57 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:

<snip>
For this reason I have tried to create a value-free map of the hand (see picture above), describing the role of the thumb in the perspective of the full hand - without using any theological- nor any philosophical vocabulary.

<snip>

[One can perceive this as a proposition of mine for the use of a neutral vocabulary - free from theological-, philosophical- and/or religeous preassumptions]

The above implicates that in a neutral vocabulary (not associated with a specific religion nor a specific philosophy) one might say that in the field of hand reading the thumb can be said to represent the 'core-identity' of a person.

<snip>

(I have found some new evidence that the thumb is more likely to represent the 'inner world'. In my latest research work on the psychological dimension Extraversion-Introversion there are two elements inside the results which suggest that a well developed thumb-side of the hand - read: high 2D:4D digit ratio & a high thenar:hypothenar ratio - tends to be found more often among introverts, who can be described as people who are sort of more oriented on their inner world than their outer world.)


Just a reminder of your initial proposal for this thread.

Perhaps it'd be a good idea to present how introversion and extroversion are related to the inner-outer, active-passive, and/or conscious-subconscious aspects of humans before you apply them to parts of the hand.

Well, extraverts can be said to be inclinded to 'live' (= in terms of getting energy, vitality) their life via the outer world, while introverts are said to be inclined to 'live' their life much more via their inner world.

(During this discussion I became more aware that the use of the word 'subconscious' can best be described as not much more than psycho-bla-bla... because this word has no specified meaning at all in any perspective! And the words 'active' and 'passive' have no specified meaning either, those are rather abstact words as well... so one could wonder how anybody can ever 'test' any theory related to those words - in the field of hand reading both words usually tend to be associated with a long list of arbitrary associative polarities... but many authors have not even bothered to present any part of the list at all, which also indicates that it's likely just nothing more than 'psycho-bla-bla' as well)

Have I answered your question?

Introverts also have to get their "energy" from outside of themselves. Perhaps they just take in less. Or maybe they take in the same amount, but give out less. Or maybe they are limited in the amount they can take in and therefore restricted in the amount they give out. They may not live more in the inner world at all as the inner world may be depleted and filled to the same degree as what they can take in and give out. In the words of the Beatles "The love you take is equal to the love you make."
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:02 pm

Patti wrote:I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 8 Delta_10

I've added a few more books to this collection since this graphic was made. My preference for hand reading material is mostly in the image at the upper left.

I'm very conscious of which books I reach for as credible resources when I'm wanting to compare viewpoints.

No, so far my ideas have not been combined into a palmistry book that is available on the market.

thinking Patti thanks for sharing your picture! Thumbs up!

Actually, I recognize most of those 11+ books in the upper left corner of your picture... but I am also surprised to notice that most of those books do not directly relate to hand reading at all.

(Yes, some of those books do include scientific materials that for sure have value for the purpose of hand reading, but regarding those books in specific I would not describe those to be presenting any type of 'holistic' view - for, scientific deductions and reports often actually represent the opposite of a true holistic view!).


scratch Rather curious that you are not able to name any specific title that is representative for your 'holistic' view regarding the topic that we are discussing here. Are you not able to name any title at all which presents a few of the elements that you are using in your 'holistic' view...???

Though I think I can understand your view a bit... if you would (rethorically) argue that some elements from those books together can be recognized to represent a view of life with MANY perspectives.


Hmmm... though you have refered to some of those titles (literally), I think in this topic you have not refered to any specific content from those 11+ books at all.

Am I correct on this, or did I miss something?

(Especially when this observation is not correct, I hope you are able to recognize that I would welcome you to describe how you have used any of those books in this discussion... Smile )


Anyway Patti, thanks for sharing that picture! wave

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:16 pm

Patti wrote:
Introverts also have to get their "energy" from outside of themselves. Perhaps they just take in less. Or maybe they take in the same amount, but give out less. Or maybe they are limited in the amount they can take in and therefore restricted in the amount they give out. They may not live more in the inner world at all as the inner world may be depleted and filled to the same degree as what they can take in and give out. In the words of the Beatles "The love you take is equal to the love you make."

Patti, you probably know that it was C.G. Jung who has popularized this central personality dimension.

Jung e.g. described introversion as: an "attitude-type characterised by orientation in life through subjective psychic contents" (= focus on one's inner psychic activity)..

And he described extraversion as "an attitude type characterised by concentration of interest on the external object" (= the outside world).

(Quoted from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraversion_and_introversion )


So, I think Jung clearly defined those terms with a reference to in respective: 'psychic contents' (= inner world) and "interest in external object" (= outer world).

It is an energy thing, because introverts are known to get more energy (vitality) from activity related to the inner world, while extravert are much more happy with outer world activities.

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Post  Patti on Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:02 pm

Judith Hipskin "Palmistry The Whole View"
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Post  Patti on Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:06 pm

Patti wrote:Judith Hipskin "Palmistry The Whole View"

"The little finger indicates an efficient feedback mechanism for what is absorbed unconsciously: the more that goes in, the more that flows out." page 101 in my edition.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:55 pm

Patti wrote:
Patti wrote:Judith Hipskin "Palmistry The Whole View"

"The little finger indicates an efficient feedback mechanism for what is absorbed unconsciously: the more that goes in, the more that flows out." page 101 in my edition.

scratch Patti, thank you for your answer.

But now I wonder... how much have you "absorbed unconsciously" today?


( geek Not sure that I understand my own question... do you?)



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Post  Patti on Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:24 am

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 8 Benedi10

The pope has announced he will be resigned at the end of this month. He says he no longer has the vitality to carry out his papal duties to his congregation. His thenar mount in the above photo is shriveled and depleted illustrating his lack of physical vitality. He plans to retreat to a monastery to reflect and write. The hypothenar area appears still vital illustrating the capacity to express himself in a more private manner.
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Post  Patti on Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:37 am

The following is from Noel Jaquin - Practical Palmistry (The Human Hand) Pages 5-8 The underlined passages support my view that we express ourselves based on preferences and that the whole hand is about the self... or the inner person.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 8 Noel_j10

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 8 Noel_j11

This mirrors what I said earlier about my disappointment in the direction of this discussion.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 8 Noel_j12
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:07 am

Lynn wrote:....

Martijn (admin) wrote:NOTICE: Patti & I have searched for key-worlds in the hand analysis literature that associate the pinky with the inner world (because the classic key-words associated with the pinky finger - e.g. communication, relationships, intimacy - all appear to relate to the outer world).

But so far it appears that Patti & I could not identify any CLASSIC 'inner world' key-words that have been associated in the hand reading literature with the pinky finger. Maybe you are able to name one 'inner world' key-word that relates to the pinky? Or the archetype of mercurius?[/color]
Sorry, having been away I am not fully up to date with this discussion, but I notice Patti says "Don't include me" in her reply. I think I have mentioned in my last paragraph why the pinky might relate more to our inner (private) than outer (public) world.

Hi Lynn,

I have searched for your 'last paragraph'... but I can not find any key-words regarding the pinky in specific. Can you please specify?

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Post  Lynn on Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:58 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote: I think I have mentioned in my last paragraph why the pinky might relate more to our inner (private) than outer (public) world.

Hi Lynn,

I have searched for your 'last paragraph'... but I can not find any key-words regarding the pinky in specific. Can you please specify?

I've re-read it and you are correct Martijn, sorry, I did not specify key words about the pinky, I was apparently talking about ulna side of palm.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:36 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote: I think I have mentioned in my last paragraph why the pinky might relate more to our inner (private) than outer (public) world.

Hi Lynn,

I have searched for your 'last paragraph'... but I can not find any key-words regarding the pinky in specific. Can you please specify?

I've re-read it and you are correct Martijn, sorry, I did not specify key words about the pinky, I was apparently talking about ulna side of palm.

Okay, thanks for confirming. Smile

PS. By the way, despite that Patti distanced from my conclusion (so far) regarding the key-words associated with the pinky... I still think that we have not identified any classic key-words (widely used in the literature) that could link the pinky finger in specific with the 'inner world'.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:59 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:...

because Dukes described that each aspect of the hand possesses an inner and an outer aspect... and additionally he has also described in the chapter 'The fingers' (p. 80) how for the fingers the dorsal side relate to 'public' and the palmar side of the fingers relates to 'private' - so this could implicate that Dukes described how the dorsal side of the hand to 'outer world' and the inner side of the hand to 'inner world'!!)
Yes, correct that Dukes said that and I agree with it.

...

Lynn, if we combine both elements presented by Dukes in the quote above... then one could say that Dukes sort of has described how every aspect of the hand has an 'inner' (represented by the palmar side) and an 'outer' (represented by the dorsal side).

But if you accept this as the starting point of the elemental system... then I think it becomes troublesome when one also adopts any view regarding radial- and ulnar side, simply because by principle this creates a contradiction regarding that starting point!

OK, just stop for a moment. Who said that this is a "starting point" ?
Yes it is the first thing we might notice about people's hands when we're walking down the street, but it is not a starting point for the 5-element system!

...

Yes Lynn, no problem... 'starting point' may not be the suitable words (though I meant only to use them as a 'starting point for further discussion').

After re-reading both passages (on page 27: outer & inner, and page 80: public & private), one could describes those as some of the key-principles that are not directly connected with the 4 elements. However, the 2nd principle still appears to suggest that Dukes associates the dorsal side of the fingers with the outer world (public) and the palmar side of the finger with the inner world (private).

Can you support this perception of mine?


PS. I am aware that the words 'public' and 'private' are not very specific... because by principle the meaning of those words vary by context. Because some would argue that going with the family to Disney World is a 'private' activity (not associated with public responsibilities), and others would argue that activities in the bedroom are 'private' (while those activities can relate to the outer world).

Therefore I hope you understand why I made the connection 'public = outer world' and 'private = inner world'... because else I think those words are kind of like empty shells (with no specific meaning at all!).

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Post  Patti on Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:30 pm

man in permanent vegetative state who can communicate with doctors using the power of thought Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2232064/Man-vegetative-state-communicates-using-power-thought.html#ixzz2Ki7rG4j2 Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Here is someone who is in a vegetative state. His family thinks he has tried to communicate with them via his thumb.

Technology now is able to show that he has a thinking mind and can use it to communicate.

In this example, of all the parts of the hand, for this man it is the thumb being used to reach out of his inner self to the world. I would interpret this as impulses from the brain to the thumb relating to interaction with the world.
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Post  RishiRahul on Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:43 pm

This discussion regarding the thumb as 'inner' or 'outer' has been well replied in the first page of the thread:
Re: The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post Patti on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:33 pm
In reality the entire hand is an outer expression of the inner self. It's basic function is to interact with the environment. This interaction is a two way street. In and out. Outward expression of the inner self can be described in all parts of the hands. Inner awareness of the outer environment is also actively found in all parts of the hands. How we relay this inner and outer expression/response is what we interpret by dividing the hand into a variety of realms.

Traditionally it is accepted that the inner awareness of the inner self (abstract - self absorbed) is on the opposite side of the hand than the outer awareness of the outer self. (stepping outside oneself - empathy). Although some people are known to 'wear their hearts on their sleeves'.

Radial and Ulnar relates to arteries, bones and nerves, in the arm, and their functions are likely relative to the concept of inner and outer flow of energy.

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Re: The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post RishiRahul on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:18 pm
Brilliant posts up there!

soul (e.g. used by Plato);
- psyche (e.g. used by Aristotle);
- mind;
- spirit;
- I (e.g. used by Emanuel Kant) self


The older palmists/philosophers said/meant the thumb to be the 'inner force'.
Which I would call as
'Potential Energy' which actualises.

Without the Potential energy (inner strength) the kinetic would soon go off steam.

A strong thumb shows success + emotionally strong in adversities.

The older palmistry/palmists said in different words (not such expressive words).

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Re: The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post Lynn on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:56 pm
There seems to be so much potential for discussion here, I'm not sure where to start!
(edit PS, just kinda thinking out loud....)
OK I know you want to get away from theological or philosophical associations, but first I give you another example of the synonyms that Martijn mentioned, the first two of which have been associated with the thumb.

- soul (e.g. used by Plato);
- psyche (e.g. used by Aristotle);
- mind;
- spirit;
- I (e.g. used by Emanuel Kant) self

IN 5-element hand reading, the thumb is labelled as the ether digit.
I copy below from my teaching notes (originally taught to me by Christopher Jones)....
"You can't observe ether, the fifth element, directly - you can't see it or touch it, and some people argue that it doesn't exist. However, others say it is present everywhere, in everything, manifesting through the four elements.

To imagine it, think of white light being split by a prism into the colours of the rainbow - the four elements are like the colours (the parts), ether is like the white light (the whole). The other four elements - earth, water, fire and air - can be thought of as different manifestations or energy levels of ether, ether vibrating at different rates.

Ether brings the four elements together into one framework - it integrates them into a whole. The word 'whole' comes from the same origin as the words 'holy', 'holistic' 'heal' and 'hale' - the spiritual ideal. Ether is about becoming complete, united with yourself and everything around you. It is said therefore to represent the spiritual realm, the life force, energy, chi, ki, prana, spirit, consciousness. However we can only know ether indirectly, via the other four elements, as it really beyond our understanding.

Statues of Buddha are often shown with an extra phalanx to the thumb. We only have two phalanges - water and fire, whereas Buddha has the air phalanx to portray his ability to understand and communicate ether or spirit."

OK, so none of the above is 'fact', it is just one way of looking at the thumb.
However I like the bit about ether bringing together the other four elements as a whole, as I believe the thumb has the effect of integrating the rest of the hand and that the thumb is the final expression of all this combined energy out into the world. If you have a weak thumb, you can't easily express the qualities of the rest of the hand out into the world.

Therefore at this point in discussion I disagree with Martijn:
Whilst ether fits with 'the essence of a person', all the parts of that make up the essence or core identity are already there in all other aspects of the hand. I would say that the thumb integrates and synthesises all these parts and aspects, brings it all together, and (rather than being the essence or core identity itself) gives us the ability to express that essence out into the world.

Martijn, I am interested to know more about your labellings of the fingers & their identities. eg I think of middle finger more as cultural identity, how we fit into our environment, rather than being self-identity which I associate more with index finger. You label index as 'ego identity' - ego is the self so how do you differentiate ego identity from self identity? Also I don't know what affective identity means.

I am really confused about your labelling of ulna - outer world = subconscious and radial - inner world = conscious. The thumb being associated with the inner world is new to me. (apart from it being a means to express our inner world to the outside world).

I know there's an old saying "The eyes are a window to the soul". I can't remember who first said "The hands are a window to the soul.", was it Benham?... (I know he said "hands are the servant of the brain").... which goes along with what Patti said "In reality the entire hand is an outer expression of the inner self."


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Differentiating the inner from the outer; Rather trying to .....Separate the 'inner sense' from the ... 'outer.... and argumenting regarding this is good for theory.

But what is the Practical use of this in applied Palmistry...which benefits/guides/helps people?

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:21 pm

RishiRahul wrote:This discussion regarding the thumb as 'inner' or 'outer' has been well replied in the first page of the thread:
Re: The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post Patti on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:33 pm
In reality the entire hand is an outer expression of the inner self. It's basic function is to interact with the environment. This interaction is a two way street. In and out. Outward expression of the inner self can be described in all parts of the hands. Inner awareness of the outer environment is also actively found in all parts of the hands. How we relay this inner and outer expression/response is what we interpret by dividing the hand into a variety of realms.

...

Hi Rishi,

Patti's (holistic) "two way street" interaction - between inner self and outer expression - sounds indeed quite interesting.

However, during this discussion it became apparent that it is actually quite hard to find key-words in the hand reading literature that confirm this approach - especially regarding the connection for the pinky finger with the inner world, and the thumb with outer world.

For, in almost every hand reading system the two upper phalanges of the thumb are associated with in respective: 'will/determination' and 'thought/reason'... which are both known as cognitive qualities (that relate to the inner world). And the pinky gets usually associated with key-words such as: communication, relationships & intimacy.


Thus... while Patti's approach may sound interesting at first sight... a more detailed analysis of the traditional concepts used in the field of hand reading for the individual parts of the hand reveals (so far) that the pinky usually (if not always) tends to get associated with key-words that relate to the outer world! And the reverse is true regarding the thumb, which gets associated with key-words that relate to the inner world (see my two examples for the pinky & the thumb).

Now, I have asked Patti to present key-words (from the hand reading literature) that disprove my observation... but so far it appears that she was only able to answer this with associative thoughts & examples.

(E.g. her references earlier today to the hand of the pope & and some story about a man who is in a vegative state of being... anyway, both examples have no direct connection with the hand reading books at all so I don't recognize those to become helpful - because such could at best be described as examples based on rather loose associations).


And thus... so far it appears to me that the 'beauty' of her rather general (holistic) theory appears to lose it's shine as soon as one starts looking for specificity!

(Afterall, her holistic approach has not been substantiated with a detailed theory regarding individual parts of the hand... not in this discussion, and also not on her website)

In my opinion... so far this holistic approach does not appear to stand the test of reality regarding the nature of things (associated with the key-words) that have been written in the many hand reading books published around the world.

(Though of course... make no mistake: I am very aware that quite some authors have presented descriptions suggestion the opposite of my observation regarding inner & outer world - however, in most of those cases the 'key-words' with the individual parts of the hand suggest the opposite. A typical example of the fact that there are quite a lot of contradictions seen in the various hand reading books presented in the world... and then it requires a proper analysis to find out which theories are most likely - because even some very popular concepts can turn out to be the result of 'copy and past work' from earlier published books, etc.)

But Rishi, feel to present evidence (preferably quotes from hand reading books) that could potentially disproof this analysis of mine!


PS. I will later start working on presenting a new picture featured with the most common key-words used for all fingers & palmar zones. After working out the details... time will tell whether that picture will still include a reference to the 'inner world' and 'outer world'.

NOTICE: Despite my observations so far, I will have to study the other parts of the hand (beyond the pinky & the thumb) more precisely before I will be able to present my third (final) picture... which will include more keywords than the first 2 pictures that I have presdented so far (the perspective presented in the 2nd picture, see below, is still very close to my latest perceptions resulting from this discussion so far).


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 8 Thumb-11

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Post  Lynn on Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:03 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:After re-reading both passages (on page 27: outer & inner, and page 80: public & private), one could describes those as some of the key-principles that are not directly connected with the 4 elements. However, the 2nd principle still appears to suggest that Dukes associates the dorsal side of the fingers with the outer world (public) and the palmar side of the finger with the inner world (private).

Can you support this perception of mine?


PS. I am aware that the words 'public' and 'private' are not very specific... because by principle the meaning of those words vary by context. Because some would argue that going with the family to Disney World is a 'private' activity (not associated with public responsibilities), and others would argue that activities in the bedroom are 'private' (while those activities can relate to the outer world).

Therefore I hope you understand why I made the connection 'public = outer world' and 'private = inner world'... because else I think those words are kind of like empty shells (with no specific meaning at all!).[/color]

Yes Dukes associates the back of the hand as the more public face and the palmar side of the hand as the more private face.
eg the back of the hand is seen more easily / frequently, we see the backs of hands more than we see palms, back of hand is the first thing we might notice about people's hands when we're walking down the street, ie more public.
The palmar side is not always revealed to the world, ie more private.
Similarly with active/passive hands, active can be seen as more public and passive as more private.
Yes I think it is ok to substitute the words outer and inner. The outer being the more obvious, manifest aspects of ourselves that we show to the world, the inner being the more hidden or less accessible to others. for example - you at work, you at home - work colleagues might only see the more 'public face', whereas family / people who know us better will see the more 'private face'.

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Post  Patti on Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:31 pm

Keywords for Little Finger - Auricular Finger (ear - typically fits inside the ear) relates to hearing and listening. The key to good communication is listening. Listening is a receptive inner quality. (my keywords in bold)

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 8 Boy-listening-150x150
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Post  Patti on Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:09 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:

(Afterall, her holistic approach has not been substantiated with a detailed theory regarding individual parts of the hand... not in this discussion, and also not on her website)

Self published with the best of them, just for you. flower

Listening is Communication
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Post  Lynn on Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:13 am

I am way behind in this discussion.
Going back to Charlotte Wolff
Martijn said
Thanks Patti, but can you please specify what you have in mind... which key-word for the pinky has Wolff presented that we can connect with the inner world?

(I think Wolff's most descriptions here are made in the perspective of sexuality... which relates to the outer world)

Patti said
subconscious and passive

I could add from Charlotte's words - "fantasy, imagination, endocrine disturbances (and repercussions on temperament and personality)"

(edit) I add that I still don't think sexuality relates to outer world. Sex act does (and as Martijn pointed out the physical drives etc are shown more in Venus mount), but sexual preference, urge, desire, inhibitions, fantasy etc are all more inner things.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:21 am

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:After re-reading both passages (on page 27: outer & inner, and page 80: public & private), one could describes those as some of the key-principles that are not directly connected with the 4 elements. However, the 2nd principle still appears to suggest that Dukes associates the dorsal side of the fingers with the outer world (public) and the palmar side of the finger with the inner world (private).

Can you support this perception of mine?


PS. I am aware that the words 'public' and 'private' are not very specific... because by principle the meaning of those words vary by context. Because some would argue that going with the family to Disney World is a 'private' activity (not associated with public responsibilities), and others would argue that activities in the bedroom are 'private' (while those activities can relate to the outer world).

Therefore I hope you understand why I made the connection 'public = outer world' and 'private = inner world'... because else I think those words are kind of like empty shells (with no specific meaning at all!).[/color]

Yes Dukes associates the back of the hand as the more public face and the palmar side of the hand as the more private face.
eg the back of the hand is seen more easily / frequently, we see the backs of hands more than we see palms, back of hand is the first thing we might notice about people's hands when we're walking down the street, ie more public.
The palmar side is not always revealed to the world, ie more private.
Similarly with active/passive hands, active can be seen as more public and passive as more private.
Yes I think it is ok to substitute the words outer and inner. The outer being the more obvious, manifest aspects of ourselves that we show to the world, the inner being the more hidden or less accessible to others. for example - you at work, you at home - work colleagues might only see the more 'public face', whereas family / people who know us better will see the more 'private face'.

Thanks Lynn! Very Happy

With the above in mind your earlier statement below now makes much more sentse to me:

Lynn wrote:"OK Martijn, feel free not to include inner/outer in the labelling of your diagram with regard to your conclusions about 5-element hand analysis. "
Because in the elemental approach the dorsal- and palmar side of the hand are being associated with 'public' (outer) and 'private' (inner), and there is no clear vertical division being used regarding the inner world & outer world.

This is e.g. indicated by that you associate air with 'communication' (let's ignore for a moment the fact that Dukes relates 'communication' with water), because then it appears obvious that the pinky at least plays a considerable role regarding the outer world - because it is THE finger mostly related to air, and pinkies usually also have relatively long 'air' phalange!

This miakes:
- upper ulnar palmar quadrant = air
- pinky finger = air
- tip phalange of pinky finger = air

Resulting in that one can say that in your interpretation of the elemental system (again, Dukes associates water with 'communication'), the distal ulnar side of the hand gets mostly associated with communication.

Can you support this perception as well Lynn?


PS. I just discovered another 'contradiction' in Dukes work... but this one is actually very helpful: because it does perfectly explain why you associate 'communication' with air!!!

Let me explain:

Because... while I earlier described how Dukes on page 31 associates the element water with 'communication', a few pages earlier he first connected AIR directly with... 'communicative techniques':

- On page 27 he writes: "Intellectual = air"
- And on page 28 he associates "intellectual" with e.g. "linguistic or communicative techniques"

cheers Pfew Lynn... I am so glad that I have solved this issue, because so far it appeared to me that you had started using a principle that is contradicted by Dukes' work; but now it has become CRYSTAL CLEAR that this problem is the result of an inconsistancy regarding the use of language in the Dukes work!

By the way, after saying this... regarding Dukes work I could now say that since communication is associated in the elemental system with air (page 28) & water (page 31), this sort of gets the full ulnar side of the hand associated with communication (except for the ring finger).

And since 'communication' always relates to the outer world... this concerns a result that is not far away from what I have presented in my picture.

Anyway, after becomming aware of Dukes principles for the dorsal- and inner hand... I think I better follow your advice to assume that the elemental system does not present clear guidelines for any 'vertical' approach regarding the inner/outer topic!

cheers Wow... Lynn, now all aspects that we have discussed regarding the elemental system finally make sense to me.

Lynn, after explaining this... I hope you now can fully support these final observations?

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Post  Lynn on Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:35 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:(Afterall, her holistic approach has not been substantiated with a detailed theory regarding individual parts of the hand... not in this discussion, and also not on her website)

I think what Martijn said about Patti can also apply to me. But it is impossible to give 'detailed theory regarding individual parts of the hand' in a discussion such as this, and we don't all necessarily have the time nor inclination to write everything we understand about hands on our websites. To understand the holistic, you have to understand all the individual component parts and be able to put it all together, integrate it & inter-relate it. For example, my 5-element hand analysis course is 40 hours of classes, over 80 pages of detailed notes, plus verbal tuition, numerous book references & handprint studies, and further discussion & private study & homework for students. You really can't expect us to explain the entire holistic views of our various approaches to reading hands in a discussion here, nor on our websites.

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Post  Patti on Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:45 am

Patti wrote:Keywords for Little Finger - Auricular Finger (ear - typically fits inside the ear) relates to hearing and listening. The key to good communication is listening. Listening is a receptive inner quality. (my keywords in bold)

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 8 Boy-listening-150x150

Listening is 60% of Communication
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Post  Patti on Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:47 am

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:(Afterall, her holistic approach has not been substantiated with a detailed theory regarding individual parts of the hand... not in this discussion, and also not on her website)

I think what Martijn said about Patti can also apply to me. But it is impossible to give 'detailed theory regarding individual parts of the hand' in a discussion such as this, and we don't all necessarily have the time nor inclination to write everything we understand about hands on our websites. To understand the holistic, you have to understand all the individual component parts and be able to put it all together, integrate it & inter-relate it. For example, my 5-element hand analysis course is 40 hours of classes, over 80 pages of detailed notes, plus verbal tuition, numerous book references & handprint studies, and further discussion & private study & homework for students. You really can't expect us to explain the entire holistic views of our various approaches to reading hands in a discussion here, nor on our websites.

Thumbs up!
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