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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:27 pm

Parender wrote: Sometime it is beyond language and is expressed by many emotions.



Hi Parender!
I think you've hit the nail on the head with the inner self, the subconscious self, being wordless, beyond language.


I think consciousness ranges like a spectrum from this language-less instinctive, primal knowing or awareness and builds/develops to the other end of the spectrum with the effort to communicate with the other or non-self, as the outer self or conscious self.

There are states of mind and states of brain development that relate to knowing where self ends and where what is not self begins.

This might be observed in the hand in a variety of ways including studying the polarities of ulnar to radial, non-dominant to dominant, shallow to deep creases, and proximal to distal.

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:12 pm

Lynn wrote:...

and Martijn I would really appreciate your answer to my questions that Patti repeated I am interested to know more about your labellings of the fingers & their identities. eg I think of middle finger more as cultural identity, how we fit into our environment, rather than being self-identity which I associate more with index finger. You label index as 'ego identity' - ego is the self so how do you differentiate ego identity from self identity? Also I don't know what affective identity means.

Hi Lynn,

With this discussion in the back of my mind I have been thinking a bit more about how to describe things more efficiently. The picture below is the new result.



How did I create this chart?

My starting point is the 'classic' approach (seen in most branches of hand reading) where the trinity 'thinking, feeling & willing' is associated with the 3 phalanges of the thumb.

In modern psychology this trinity is being associated with the 'self' (see 2nd alinea: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology_of_self : "Current views of the self in psychology position the self as playing an integral part in human motivation, cognition, affect, and social identity." - NOTICE: motivation, cognition & affect can directly be related to in respective: willing, thinking & feeling).

In Anthroposophy & Christianity this trinity is associated to represent the soul; just like Plato described the soul consisting of 3 parts: 'eros' (feeling), 'logos' (thinking) & 'thymos' (willing).

And I think it is quite obvious that the 'self' & 'soul' (just like the 'I') can only be associated to represent the 'inner world'.... and not the 'outer world'.


Second, regarding the labels that I have used for the 4 fingers: I have destilated those from multiple sources which e.g. describe the associated planetary archetypes, plus the traditional associations regarding the fingers, plus the archetypes described in Johnny Fincham's 2nd book. I hope these now make sense?

NOTICE: Regarding the 'affective identity' associated with the pinky, you can think about the archetype of Mercurius + some other typical associations for the pinky finger: e.g. communication, relationships & sexuality. I think 'communication' and 'making connections' are two key-aspects.


Third, regarding the 'sensing' being associated with the hypothenar... Edo Sprong writes:

"Alle zintuigen worden als het ware gefilterd door the maanheuvel. Door de maanheuve ontvangen we de buitenwereld."

[Translated: "All senses are as it were filtered through the mount of Moon. Via the mount of Moon we receive the outside world."]


So... I think I have now explained how the thumb (representing the 'I' or 'soul') is associated with the inner world; I have explained how the pinky finger is associated with the outer world (because communication & relationships for sure require interaction with the outer world); and I have explained who the mount of moon is associated to represents the senses (through which we connect with the outer world).


PS. Lynn, in "The Spellbinding Power of Palmistry" Johnny Fincham literally associates the Mercury quadrant with (... I quote!) "the outer world" (+ communication, social communication, business, financial skills).

Johnny's summary suggests that it might even be quite hard to associate that Mercury quadrant with the inner world!???

So Lynn... Wink ... I now wonder why you got confused about my summary (where the pinky side is associated with the outer world - just like Johnny did). Are you sure that Johnny & you are using the same system???

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:38 pm

Martijn, Thanks for explaining how you arrived at the labelling on the map of the hand.

Martijn (admin) wrote:
PS. Lynn, in "The Spellbinding Power of Palmistry" Johnny Fincham literally associates the Mercury quadrant with (... I quote!) "the outer world" (+ communication, social communication, business, financial skills).

Johnny's summary suggests that it might even be quite hard to associate that Mercury quadrant with the inner world!???

So Lynn... Wink ... I now wonder why you got confused about my summary (where the pinky side is associated with the outer world - just like Johnny did). Are you sure that Johnny & you are using the same system???[/color]

Are you being sarcastic Martijn? You know that Johnny & I studied the same system.
You were talking about ulna/radial division. As I said earlier "(tho it is possible to subdivide the hand in many ways, eg vertically, horizontally and into 4 quadrants)." Now you're talking about quadrants, which is a different way of looking at the hand. The air quadrant is the conscious quadrant on the passive side of the hand, which could imply that Johnny is associating conscious with outer, as I did.

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:03 am

PS I have only just seen the new picture - it didn't load last time I logged on. I see you've pretty much used the same ideas as Johnny for the fingers.

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:36 am

Lynn wrote:Martijn, Thanks for explaining how you arrived at the labelling on the map of the hand.

Martijn (admin) wrote:
PS. Lynn, in "The Spellbinding Power of Palmistry" Johnny Fincham literally associates the Mercury quadrant with (... I quote!) "the outer world" (+ communication, social communication, business, financial skills).

Johnny's summary suggests that it might even be quite hard to associate that Mercury quadrant with the inner world!???

So Lynn... Wink ... I now wonder why you got confused about my summary (where the pinky side is associated with the outer world - just like Johnny did). Are you sure that Johnny & you are using the same system???[/color]

Are you being sarcastic Martijn? You know that Johnny & I studied the same system.
You were talking about ulna/radial division. As I said earlier "(tho it is possible to subdivide the hand in many ways, eg vertically, horizontally and into 4 quadrants)." Now you're talking about quadrants, which is a different way of looking at the hand. The air quadrant is the conscious quadrant on the passive side of the hand, which could imply that Johnny is associating conscious with outer, as I did.

Lynn, so far I had read your words as if you were suggesting that you had been using the reversed principle regarding where to find the inner- and outer world.

Actually, your first sentence below still appears to confirm that I have read your words correctely:

Lynn wrote:Except I associate ulna with subconscious/inner and radial with conscious/outer. I do not understand conscious being associated with inner, or subconscious being associated with outer. (tho it is possible to subdivide the hand in many ways, eg vertically, horizontally and into 4 quadrants).

So, after I found Johnny's description for the mercury quadrant... it became very hard for me to understand the origins of you (underlined) association.

By the way, please be aware... in Holtzman's system the unlar side is associated with the inner world, and the thumb side with the outer world. But I have not seen you referring to his system (at least not in this topic), so, I wanted to chalange you to give/find your very best arguments!

I hope you recognize that it became confusing for me to see you associating the ulnar side with the outer inner world... and actually, I have just found also a passage in Dukes' work which continue to make me wonder about the origins of your ideas; because Dukes writes:

"The air quadrant is conscious and passive."


Remember where I wrote in an earlier post that at the Academie Antropodynamica I was thought the principle: fingers = conscious, palm = subconscious....?

Your response suggested that you were thought something else... because you responded by describing the principle: fingers = mind, palm = body.

But only now I see that Dukes kind of used the same principle (page 48):

"The fire quadrant is conscious and active
The air quadrant is conscious and passive"


(Anyway, you already started questioning what the word 'consciousness' really means, so I gues it only takes another small step to drop the use of the division 'conscious vs subconscious'... which is no longer featured in my 2nd picture)


Lynn, I was not being 'sarcastic' when I asked whether Johnny and you are using the same system. But regarding this topic it is now very hard to understand where your association (ulnar side = outer inner world) origins from - because to me it looks like as if Dukes & Fincham's ideas about the fundamentals... are quite different from your association.

I hope this now makes sense?

My question served to challenge you to describe things more precisely... but I am very happy to see that in your post you now have refered explicit to the quadrants; because now that I know that Dukes associates the air (+ fire) quadrant with 'conscious'... I think you will now understand much better why I found reasons to question the fundamentals of your association.

(Basically, because I think that IF the hand shows some division regarding the outer world versus the inner world... I think the pinky finger SHOULD represent the outer world - simply because in most hand reading systems the pinky finger is associated with communication & relationships. Holtzman will probably disagree, but his psychoanalytic vocabulary can be described to represent a world on its own)


PS. Even though Dukes & Fincham appear to describe some priciples that contradict your association, I observe that some principles used by Dukes & Fincham also appear to contradict (Dukes uses the division 'active-passive' for the quadrants, however Fincham associates this division only with the right- and left hand... and I think it is obvious that using both together leads to fundamental inconsistencies - unless it would have been described how to combine both approaches... but that would probably become a theoretic exercise with very little practical value).


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:35 am; edited 6 times in total (Reason for editing : Language corrections only! (+ later: 2 typo corrections))

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:54 am

Lynn wrote:PS I have only just seen the new picture - it didn't load last time I logged on. I see you've pretty much used the same ideas as Johnny for the fingers.

Sounds like we have managed to make some progress!


PS. I am still in doubt about the word 'affective (identity)'... because it creates a connection with the 'affect' mentioned for the thenar; the difference is that the pinky relates to more mental energy while the thenar relates to more physical energy (which relates to the mind-body dimension that you described).


PPS. By the way, after I concluded that the conscious - subconscious division does not make much sense (because especially the word subconscious is kind of a 'psycho-bla-bla' word with no specific meaning at all in any context)... I could make a likewise recommendation regarding this 'mind-body' division.

I am making this recommendation for various reasons:

- first of all... no one can not deny that (as a matter of fact) the full hand is a part of our body;
- second, the 'mind-body' division is usually associated with the fundamental (philosophical/religious) question about consciousness and the brain, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind%E2%80%93body_problem ... and the 'mind-body' division in the field of hand reading does not relate to that fundamental question at all;
- third, while modern hand studies the mind and the body there is no evidence at all for a strict division between the two (e.g. fingerprints include inborn genetic info that can only be understood as an aspect that relates to the body, and the same is true for the hormonal issue related to the 2D:4D digit ratio, etc.)



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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:01 pm

Parender wrote:Your Inner Essence is the fabrication of your being, very personal, your soul psychology, your life purpose and is a continue process. It is more than that; like an internal force that guides, inspires, motivates you. A spiritual person can understand this well because it is infinite silence, peace and stillness at the core point of your being, to be in harmony with Almighty. Sometime it is beyond language and is expressed by many emotions.

It is a ‘feeling’ that’s totally unique and personal to every individual. It is an awakening of the Truth for you. Inner essence is a combination of many things. A thumb can denote your willpower, decision-making power, persistence or energy level, yours being successful or failure but I think it (sole thumb) cannot reveal your inner essence, for this you would have to study all the fingers and fingertips. Yes, thumb individualizes a person and is very important but without fingers what it is? Like studying or analyzing hand as a whole is more important than studying in sections so to know and understand inner essence we would have to study fingers too. After all this is your Life Purpose.

Parender Sethi

Hi Parender,

Thanks for sharing you perceptions regarding the inner essence. Unfortunately, I think your description does not present anything specific regarding how to 'read' the inner essence from the hand.

In general, when there is not specific relation between any proportion of the hand and the inner essence... then by principle one could start wondering about whether there is any relationship between the hand and the inner essence at all!???

But I can add that I am also glad to see that the only specific comment in your post in this perspective relates to the thumb... which I can perceive as at least some confirmation of what I have described so far regarding the thumb.

So, I welcome you to specify anything in this perspective if you can!


Thanks!

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  RishiRahul on Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:03 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
RishiRahul wrote:Brilliant posts up there!

soul (e.g. used by Plato);
- psyche (e.g. used by Aristotle);
- mind;
- spirit;
- I (e.g. used by Emanuel Kant) self


The older palmists/philosophers said/meant the thumb to be the 'inner force'.
Which I would call as
'Potential Energy' which actualises.

Without the Potential energy (inner strength) the kinetic would soon go off steam.

A strong thumb shows success + emotionally strong in adversities.

The older palmistry/palmists said in different words (not such expressive words).

RishiRahul


Merci RishiRahul, nice to see that you appreciate the content of this topic!

Thanks!

And yes, I think it is likely true that some older palmists have associated the thumb with 'the inner force'. I think that is kind of just another synonym for the words 'soul', 'psyche', 'mind', 'spirit', etc.


I could add here that many classic- & modern thinkers in the fields of Christianity, Anthroposophy & Esotery tend to describe that the soul tends to manifest via 3 fundamental qualities: thinking, feeling & willing.... and this trinity eventually results in behavior.

And what we can observe from various fields of hand reading is that this trinity (thinking + feeling + willing) is generally associated with the 3 parts of the thumb.

"Success comes from within, not from without.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882)


Hi Martjin,

The older palmists quite rightly has associated the thumb with 'inner force' (sorry, I am quite bad with history).

The olders were more concerned with 'inner strength'; while the 'new' do not have much time for that.
Here, I am talking of the 'mindset' of the older vs the new; which obvoiusly afftects thinking.

Let us not take the help of google links/religion to substantiate/confirm something.

Now, if you have read my above quote about the Potential energy being Kinetic, the idea of the thumb relating to the 'inner' or 'outer' or 'both' would be simpler.

The thumb is obviously a Great force in life/palmistry.
If it did not have tremendous inner strength, it could not have performed the outer.

RishiRahul


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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:33 pm

RishiRahul wrote:
The thumb is obviously a Great force in life/palmistry.
If it did not have tremendous inner strength, it could not have performed the outer.

nicely said Thumbs up!

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:38 pm

Parender wrote:Your Inner Essence is the fabrication of your being, very personal, your soul psychology, your life purpose and is a continue process. It is more than that; like an internal force that guides, inspires, motivates you. A spiritual person can understand this well because it is infinite silence, peace and stillness at the core point of your being, to be in harmony with Almighty. Sometime it is beyond language and is expressed by many emotions.

It is a ‘feeling’ that’s totally unique and personal to every individual. It is an awakening of the Truth for you. Inner essence is a combination of many things. A thumb can denote your willpower, decision-making power, persistence or energy level, yours being successful or failure but I think it (sole thumb) cannot reveal your inner essence, for this you would have to study all the fingers and fingertips. Yes, thumb individualizes a person and is very important but without fingers what it is? Like studying or analyzing hand as a whole is more important than studying in sections so to know and understand inner essence we would have to study fingers too. After all this is your Life Purpose.

Parender Sethi

I think I agree with everything you said Parender. In fact I said similar about needing to look at the whole hand. I just have a feeling that the thumb could be the vehicle via which we express so much of the rest of the hand out into the world.

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:32 pm

Martijn, I just spent 45 mins writing a very comprehensive reply to you. I was reading thru the preview and my computer switched itself off and re-booted. Oh...nooo! Hopeless Sad

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:46 am

Martijn, I hope you are sitting comfortably, because I am planning some LONG replies lol!
The first two will respond to your points and questions, but please wait till you read the 3rd one before replying as I hope you will understand me better by then.

Martijn wrote: Lynn, so far I had read your words as if you were suggesting that you had been using the reversed principle regarding where to find the inner- and outer world.

Actually, your first sentence below still appears to confirm that I have read your words correctely:

Lynn wrote:Except I associate ulna with subconscious/inner and radial with conscious/outer. I do not understand conscious being associated with inner, or subconscious being associated with outer. (tho it is possible to subdivide the hand in many ways, eg vertically, horizontally and into 4 quadrants).

So, after I found Johnny's description for the mercury quadrant... it became very hard for me to understand the origins of you (underlined) association.
Yes I think you read my words correctly when talking about basic ulna/radial divisions. Sorry you became confused when we started talking about quadrants (will explain later).

Martijn wrote: By the way, please be aware... in Holtzman's system the unlar side is associated with the inner world, and the thumb side with the outer world. But I have not seen you referring to his system (at least not in this topic), so, I wanted to chalange you to give/find your very best arguments!
I never studied Holtzman’s system properly, but I was taught the same in palmistry ie ulna = inner, radial =outer. Your mode of challenging me did not induce me to give my best arguments Laughing

Martijn wrote: I hope you recognize that it became confusing for me to see you associating the ulnar side with the outer world... and actually, I have just found also a passage in Dukes' work which continue to make me wonder about the origins of your ideas; because Dukes writes:
"The air quadrant is conscious and passive."
I didn’t. I said ulna=inner. (I think you just made a typo error there). But I understand why the quadrants confused you with an apparent contradiction. They are a different way of dividing the hand from the basic/radial and ulna, but they do work together without contradiction. (explanation later).

Martijn wrote: Remember where I wrote in an earlier post that at the Academie Antropodynamica I was thought the principle: fingers = conscious, palm = subconscious....?

Your response suggested that you were thought something else... because you responded by describing the principle: fingers = mind, palm = body.

But only now I see that Dukes kind of used the same principle (page 48):

"The fire quadrant is conscious and active
The air quadrant is conscious and passive"
Yes,again I understand why you were confused. I don’t disagree with Academie Antropodynamica. I was offering an alternative way of looking (more about fingers=mind, palm=body later). Actually off the top of my head I could tentatively offer a 3rd option, which in some ways might work for both our previous ones……
The fingers represent considered responses (mind, conscious) , the palm represents instinctive responses (body, subconscious) (??)
Although I use considered / instinctive for active / passive hand differentiation.

Martijn wrote: (Anyway, you already started questioning what the word 'consciousness' really means, so I gues it only takes another small step to drop the use of the division 'conscious vs subconscious'... which is no longer featured in my 2nd picture)
Yes but my questioning was regarding a discussion about whether rocks and furniture have consciousness! There are various ways that we could ascribe conscious /subconscious to the hand (more later).

Martijn wrote: Lynn, I was not being 'sarcastic' when I asked whether Johnny and you are using the same system. But regarding this topic it is now very hard to understand where your association (ulnar side = outer world) origins from - because to me it looks like as if Dukes & Fincham's ideas about the fundamentals... are quite different from your association. I hope this now makes sense?
My question served to challenge you to describe things more precisely... but I am very happy to see that in your post you now have refered explicit to the quadrants; because now that I know that Dukes associates the air (+ fire) quadrant with 'conscious'... I think you will now understand much better why I found reasons to question the fundamentals of your association.
(edit highlighted your typo in bold again, I said ulna=inner) Thanks for explaining & sorry I misinterpreted your question as sarcasm. . But you did need not need to challenge me in such a way! You could simply have said “please describe things more precisely”. OK, I will! in my 3rd post.

Martijn wrote: (Basically, because I think that IF the hand shows some division regarding the outer world versus the inner world... I think the pinky finger SHOULD represent the outer world - simply because in most hand reading systems the pinky finger is associated with communication & relationships. Holtzman will probably disagree, but his psychoanalytic vocabulary can be described to represent a world on its own)


PS. Even though Dukes & Fincham appear to describe some priciples that contradict your association, I observe that some principles used by Dukes & Fincham also appear to contradict (Dukes uses the division 'active-passive' for the quadrants, however Fincham associates this division only with the right- and left hand... and I think it is obvious that using both together leads to fundamental inconsistencies - unless it would have been described how to combine both approaches... but that would probably become a theoretic exercise with very little practical value).

OK now I understand that you are kind-of thinking out loud and working out your ideas.
I think it's better if you don't try to compare Dukes & Fincham too much. It would be like me comparing you & Edo Sprong. 15-20 years later, most students will find their own way and diverge from what their teachers taught them. Likewise me, Jen and Johnny all work in our own way, despite being taught at the same school, we have some differences due to our own individual viewpoints & experience. But I think we still share many fundamental similarities from the basis of our C Soc teaching.
Much of Dukes work was a theoretic exercise with very little practical value. (we even used to quadrant phalanges!). I think you could say the same about many of the scientific papers you study - fine in theory but how does it help handreaders on a practical level. I said the same after I studied palmistry books on mounts for 3 years - fine in theory but mounts are quite difficult to quantify in practise. It’s still useful to read and learn these things though.
[b]


Last edited by Lynn on Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:35 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:55 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:Sounds like we have managed to make some progress!
yes, so far I have realised that I misunderstood you, and you misunderstood me!

Martijn (admin) wrote:PS. I am still in doubt about the word 'affective (identity)'... because it creates a connection with the 'affect' mentioned for the thenar; the difference is that the pinky relates to more mental energy while the thenar relates to more physical energy (which relates to the mind-body dimension that you described).
I don't understand what 'affective identity'means. We were taught pinky = "impersonal identity" but 15 years on, I have a problem understanding that too!

Martijn (admin) wrote:PPS. By the way, after I concluded that the conscious - subconscious division does not make much sense (because especially the word subconscious is kind of a 'psycho-bla-bla' word with no specific meaning at all in any context)...
maybe this needs more discussion Question

Martijn (admin) wrote:....I could make a likewise recommendation regarding this 'mind-body' division.

I am making this recommendation for various reasons:

- first of all... no one can not deny that (as a matter of fact) the full hand is a part of our body;
- second, the 'mind-body' division is usually associated with the fundamental (philosophical/religious) question about consciousness and the brain, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind%E2%80%93body_problem ... and the 'mind-body' division in the field of hand reading does not relate to that fundamental question at all;
- third, while modern hand studies the mind and the body there is no evidence at all for a strict division between the two (e.g. fingerprints include inborn genetic info that can only be understood as an aspect that relates to the body, and the same is true for the hormonal issue related to the 2D:4D digit ratio, etc.)

Ok I think you are making it too complicated. I do not disagree that the full hand is a part of our body; and that the duality of mind & body being separate is erroneous as the two are so interconnected. There are no strict divisions. As Patti previously said, it's all a spectrum. I will explain more about my way of seeing it in my next post. I hope you understand it better then.

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:25 am

OK Martijn I ‘ll give you a lesson in 5 element hand analysis Laughing I hope it explains some of the apparent contradictions and confusions in my posts in this thread so far.

There are lots of different ways of looking at the zones and divisions of the hand.
At first you were talking only about radial/ulna division of the hand, now quadrants and we also have palm vs fingers, which can be further subdivided into horizontal palmar zones & phalanges.
Please understand that with 5-element hand analysis, everything on the hand can be divided into earth, water, fire, air (only the thumb is labelled ether as that is the special digit). Then everything can be subdivided, and subdivided again and again. 4 elements in 2 perspectives = 16 possibilities, add another perspective it becomes 64 possibilities, add another hand perspective = 256 possibilities etc etc etc. Hence your confusion about radial vs ulna and quadrants.

This is how I see the various zones & divisions :-

Radial - active, conscious, outer. (more manifest, foreground, considered & 'out there', connecting with outside world)
Ulna - passive, subconscious, inner. (more latent, background, instinctive & hidden from outside world).

Hand shape -
Palm vs fingers - the fingers represent the mind, the palm represents the body. They reflect the general mind/body balance of a person. (this can be used at first glance on looking at a hand)
Fingers predominate = Long fingers (air and water hands) the mind predominates over the body. ie mental activities are most important, inner world is more dominant over the physical, active world. .
Palm predominates = Short fingers (earth and fire hands) the body predominates over the mind. (ie physical activities ‘doing’ predominates over ‘thinking’)

width of palm, generally -
broad palm = more physical
narrow palm = less physical
more specifically -
If the hand is wider at the base there is more physical energy, they want to be active, on the go, doing things.
If the hand is wider at the fingers there's more mental energy, thought, analysis, ideas.

Horizontal zones -
Palm - you can divide the length of the palm into 4 equal zones from wrist to base of fingers.
earth = the first quarter across the base of the palm which includes the ball of the thumb, then water, then fire (mars to mars) and then air across the digital mounts.
(Understand the principles of the elements to understand what these 4 zones represent).

Finger phalanges -
base phalanx - water,
middle phalanx - fire,
top phalanx - air.
The earth being the digital mounts, so the mounts are the air of the body and the earth of the mind, the interchange between mind and body.

Quadrants - divide the hand into 4 quarters - draw a line down the centre of the palm from the middle of the tip of earth (Saturn) finger to centre of the wrist. Measure it’s half way point and draw a line across the palm horizontally at 90 degrees to the vertical line. Now you have 4 quarters or quadrants to the palm.
Lower ulna = water = passive subconscious
Top ulna = air = passive conscious
Lower radial - earth = active subconscious
Upper radial = fire = active conscious

OK it’s late now. I hope I explained it in a way you can understand Martijn. Does it make any sense to you now?

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:41 am

Lynn wrote:

Finger phalanges -
base phalanx - water,
middle phalanx - fire,
top phalanx - air.
The earth being the digital mounts, so the mounts are the air of the body and the earth of the mind, the interchange between mind and body.


Thumb up Really nice summation.

The only spot I run into where my spectrum and your spectrum doesn't really jive is the fingers and their assigned elements.

If the mounts below the fingers must be included to allow for 4 elements, then I'd make the mounts Fire. The base of the finger is the materializing of the inspirations/input of the fingertips, so I would see it as Earth instead of the more changeable Water. The most obvious example of this, is the thicker this phalange is, the more the need for tangible results. i.e. the index finger = and good food.

Air or Water works for the fingertips as both relate to sensing and touch.

The middle sections aren't really about action, but instead are more about pondering, planning, organizing... thought, so Fire doesn't seem appropriate.

That leaves elements to be matched to what is left when they are applied to best fit (and ignores the spectrum - from the immaterial to the material)

But... this is the reason I have difficulty using the Elements as a system, because there's always the left overs that get assigned to the left over hand features.

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:21 am

Looking at Duke's "Chinese Hand Analysis" Skimming through the chapter on fingers and the myriad ways to slice and dice the finger into elemental pieces leaves one realizing that at some point every element is covered in just about every part of the finger... no matter how you cut it.


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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:53 pm

Lynn wrote:...

Martijn wrote: I hope you recognize that it became confusing for me to see you associating the ulnar side with the outer world... and actually, I have just found also a passage in Dukes' work which continue to make me wonder about the origins of your ideas; because Dukes writes:
"The air quadrant is conscious and passive."
I didn’t. I said ulna=inner. (I think you just made a typo error there). But I understand why the quadrants confused you with an apparent contradiction. They are a different way of dividing the hand from the basic/radial and ulna, but they do work together without contradiction. (explanation later).

...

Lynn, thank you for your efforts + the corrections regarding my typos (yes... you spotted those two typos correctly, for I intended to describe your association as: 'ulnar side = inner world').


I am sorry Lynn, even after reading your summary in your third post... it's very hard to understand why you simply say that these work together without contradiction - while your vocabulary clearly indicates that there is a contradiction with Fincham & Duke's theory! (So far I had only specified this to Fincham's association regarding the air quadrant with outer world... + Dukes associates air quadrant with conscious)

And now I must even report to you that you third post for sure does not explain much at all; because actually... by using your principles I can now even sort of 'proof'(!) that some of your labels are being used inconsistent (I present the proof below!).


In you summary I recognize the following key-principles: you suggest that water + earth stand for subconscious, and air + fire stand for conscious.

However, when we apply this approach to the various zones in the ulnar side of the hand this is the result:

ULNAR PALM:
- Water quadrant (lower ulna palmar zone) = subconscious
- Air quadrant (top ulna palmar zone) = conscious

ULNAR FINGERS:
- Air finger (finger 1 in ulna zone) = conscious
- Fire finger (finger 2 in ulnar zone) = conscious

ULNAR PALM + FINGERS RESULT:
3x conscious + 1x subconscious


Now Lynn, how can this result (which directly rises from the perspective that you described in your third post) explain that you describe the ulnar zone as representing the 'subconscious zone'???

Don't yoiu think this is a valid question in the perspective of the fact that the labels suggest that there are much more 'conscious' elements on the ulnar zone!?


NOTICE: I could present a likewise summary for the radial zone... and then the results for the radial- + ulnar zone together suggest that according YOUR OWN key-principles it would have made much more sense if you had labeled the radial zone as the 'subconscious zone' and the ulnar zone as the 'conscious zone'.

( lol! ... I can assure you that there is no typo in the above sentence!)


And... cheers ... if I now apply your earlier reasoning about how in your view the 'conscious' represents the outer world to this ULNAR PALM + FINGERS RESULT (which I just described) then I can now even argue that you have presented yourself an argument which could indicate that according the basic principles of Elemental Chirology the ulnar side are more likely to represent the outer world.... and the thumb-side the inner world.

(EDIT:)

Because in one of your earlier posts you wrote:

Lynn wrote:"I do not understand conscious being associated with inner, or subconscious being associated with outer." ... "Because conscious is what we are most aware of, it is more accessible, hence ''outer' but subconscious is more hidden and difficult to access, hence 'inner'."


Lynn, do you still think that I am making things too complicated... or can you now agree that my 'proof' indicates that there is an inconsistency in your principles? ( Very Happy After your last post I no longer need to refer to the works of Dukes & Fincham!)


PS. I appologize for making the double-typo! ( Oh...nooo!) - I have corrected both in my earlier posts; I am glad that you were capable to understand my earlier posts anyway! Thumbs up!


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:15 pm; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : Lynn, in my last edit I have add the quote from one of your earlier posts)

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:49 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
I am sorry Lynn, even after reading your summary in your third post... it's very hard to understand why you simply say that these work together without contradiction - while your vocabulary clearly indicates that there is a contradiction with Fincham & Duke's theory! (So far I had only specified this to Fincham's association regarding the air quadrant with outer world... + Dukes associates air quadrant with conscious)

And now I must even report to you that you third post for sure does not explain much at all; because actually... by using your principles I can now even sort of 'proof'(!) that some of your labels are being used inconsistent (I present the proof below!).


In you summary I recognize the following key-principles: you suggest that water + earth stand for subconscious, and air + fire stand for conscious.

However, when we apply this approach to the various zones in the ulnar side of the hand this is the result:

ULNAR PALM:
- Water quadrant (lower ulna palmar zone) = subconscious
- Air quadrant (top ulna palmar zone) = conscious

ULNAR FINGERS:
- Air finger (finger 1 in ulna zone) = conscious
- Fire finger (finger 2 in ulnar zone) = conscious

ULNAR PALM + FINGERS RESULT:
3x conscious + 1x subconscious


Now Lynn, how can this result (which directly rises from the perspective that you described in your third post) explain that you describe the ulnar zone as representing the 'subconscious zone'???

Don't yoiu think this is a valid question in the perspective of the fact that the labels suggest that there are much more 'conscious' elements on the ulnar zone!?


NOTICE: I could present a likewise summary for the radial zone... and then the results for the radial- + ulnar zone together suggest that according YOUR OWN key-principles it would have made much more sense if you had labeled the radial zone as the 'subconscious zone' and the ulnar zone as the 'conscious zone'.

( lol! ... I can assure you that there is no typo in the above sentence!)


And... cheers ... if I now apply your earlier reasoning about how in your view the 'conscious' represents the outer world to this ULNAR PALM + FINGERS RESULT (which I just described) then I can now even argue that you have presented yourself an argument which could indicate that according the basic principles of Elemental Chirology the ulnar side are more likely to represent the outer world.... and the thumb-side the inner world.

(EDIT:)

Because in one of your earlier posts you wrote:

Lynn wrote:"I do not understand conscious being associated with inner, or subconscious being associated with outer." ... "Because conscious is what we are most aware of, it is more accessible, hence ''outer' but subconscious is more hidden and difficult to access, hence 'inner'."


Lynn, do you still think that I am making things too complicated... or can you now agree that my 'proof' indicates that there is an inconsistency in your principles? ( Very Happy After your last post I no longer need to refer to the works of Dukes & Fincham!)


PS. I appologize for making the double-typo! ( Oh...nooo!) - I have corrected both in my earlier posts; I am glad that you were capable to understand my earlier posts anyway! Thumbs up! [/color]

In you summary I recognize the following key-principles: you suggest that water + earth stand for subconscious, and [color=indigo]air + fire stand for conscious
No they don't 'stand for' conscious/subconscious, those quadrants are in the conscious/subconscious areas of the palm.

The fingers represent the mind, so all fingers represent some kind of consciousness. Little finger = air type consciousness, index = water type consciousness etc.

By adding fingers to quadrants as you have done, you still have the same number of conscious/subconscious on the radial side.

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:58 pm

Patti wrote:
Thumb up Really nice summation.

The only spot I run into where my spectrum and your spectrum doesn't really jive is the fingers and their assigned elements.

If the mounts below the fingers must be included to allow for 4 elements, then I'd make the mounts Fire. The base of the finger is the materializing of the inspirations/input of the fingertips, so I would see it as Earth instead of the more changeable Water. The most obvious example of this, is the thicker this phalange is, the more the need for tangible results. i.e. the index finger = and good food.

Air or Water works for the fingertips as both relate to sensing and touch.

The middle sections aren't really about action, but instead are more about pondering, planning, organizing... thought, so Fire doesn't seem appropriate.

That leaves elements to be matched to what is left when they are applied to best fit (and ignores the spectrum - from the immaterial to the material)

But... this is the reason I have difficulty using the Elements as a system, because there's always the left overs that get assigned to the left over hand features.
Thanks!

I can see an argument for assigning fire to the digital mounts, but we can also think of the mounts as the 'storehouse of energy' before it filters up to the fingers - the fuel (earth) that the fire needs to burn.
I was also surprised at base phalanx being water. I think the thicker the phalanx, the more you use it. your example of index f is a good one because many people have that as their most developed phalanx - our physical material desires 'I want, I need' = food Laughing


Patti wrote:Looking at Duke's "Chinese Hand Analysis" Skimming through the chapter on fingers and the myriad ways to slice and dice the finger into elemental pieces leaves one realizing that at some point every element is covered in just about every part of the finger... no matter how you cut it.
Yes!

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:37 pm

Lynn wrote:
No they don't 'stand for' conscious/subconscious, those quadrants are in the conscious/subconscious areas of the palm.

The fingers represent the mind, so all fingers represent some kind of consciousness. Little finger = air type consciousness, index = water type consciousness etc.

By adding fingers to quadrants as you have done, you still have the same number of conscious/subconscious on the radial side.

Lynn, beyond my choice of words... you described yourself these key-principles in the elemental approach:

"Lower ulna = water = passive subconscious
Top ulna = air = passive conscious
Lower radial - earth = active subconscious
Upper radial = fire = active conscious"


If we apply these principles seperately for the palm and the fingers this results for the radial side in

lower radial + upper palm + index finger + radial half of the middle finger

Symbolized as:

earth + fire + water + earth

Resulting in:

conscious + subconscious + subconscious + subconscious = 3 x subconscious + 1x conscious.


NOTICE: Dukes & Fincham litterally speak of "quadrant analysis for the palm" (Fincham writes: "the palm itself is split into four uneven quadrants"); and the vertical border between the palmar quadrants is defined via the triradius below the middle finger. For this reason it would become troublesome to suggest that a quadrant analysis also includes the fingers... because that would create a definition problem for the middle finger:

For, as the middle finger is described as the earth finger, and 'earth' is associated with subconscious... and IF one would assume that the fingers are considered as a part of the connecting upper palmar quadrant then the ulnar part of the middle finger would get associated with the upper ulnar palmar quadrant which relates to the element air, etc. etc.

(edit: On top of this arguement I could also point out that the quadrant analysis should never be associated with the fingers... because that would create immediately a hugh contradiction regarding the radial fingers, because these then would get associated with 'fire' - while these are named in respective the 'water finger' [index finger] and 'earth finger' [middle finger])

Lynn, if you already have made this choice... this again would confirm for me that you have started using a fundamentally different approach compared to what Dukes and Fincham described... while Dukes' and Fincham's approach do not contradict regarding anything in this matter at all!

Sorry Lynn, I don't recognize who this issue can be understood as a 'minor' variant due to personal experience & preference (which is how described it).


Lynn, let me put it like this:

I think I have to conclude that when the key-principles of the elemental approach are adopted (and accepted)... then one can not deny the fact that both fingers at the ulna side are associated with 'conscious', and both fingers at the radial side are associated with 'subconscious'.

And in this perspective it becomes a mystery to my why you have adopted the (vertical) principles: 'ulnar = subconscious' and 'radial = conscious'... because your principles simply do not make sense in the perspective of the key-principles for elemental interpretation, especially regarding the fingers!

By the way, it would have made sense to me if you had said that according the basic principles of the elemental system it is quite impossible to associate the two sides of the hand with 'consious' or 'subconsiouis'... because in the elemental system those words are actually associated with the elements itself and accordingly those words get associated with the accessory palm quadrants + the four fingers!


PS. Finally, after studying & discussing these details, I would like to inform you that I now perceive that the key-principles of the elemental system do not violate the principles that I have described in my second picture. I can now only hope that I have explained & argumented the fundamentals of my observation properly.

Thanks!



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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:40 pm





Perhaps the confusion about various viewpoints on how to divvy up the hand is because the hand structure and function is very different and diversified (in its divisions). The hand maps of the future will be much different than the hand maps of the past.




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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:44 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:NOTICE: Dukes & Fincham litterally speak of "quadrant analysis for the palm" (Fincham writes: "the palm itself is split into four uneven quadrants"); and the vertical border between the palmar quadrants is defined via the triradius below the middle finger. For this reason it would become troublesome to suggest that a quadrant analysis also includes the fingers...
Yes exactly. It was you who introduced the fingers into it.

Lynn, beyond my choice of words... you described yourself these key-principles in the elemental approach:

"Lower ulna = water = passive subconscious
Top ulna = air = passive conscious
Lower radial - earth = active subconscious
Upper radial = fire = active conscious"


You have adopted the idea that conscious and subconscious are actually associated with individual elements, but I didn't say that. I am sorry that the way I wrote it seems to have confused you.

The passive/active and conscious/subconscious refer to the division of the palm horizontally and vertically, like a spectrum in each direction.
1) base of palm to digital mounts - subconscious to conscious, and
2) radial to ulna - active to passive.

If I re-write it like this, do you understand what I was saying?
Lower ulna = water = passive subconscious
Lower ulna is the passive subconscious quadrant, which is ruled by water.
Top ulna = air = passive conscious
Top ulna is the passive conscious quadrant, which is ruled by air.
This is not the same as saying 'water stands for subconscious', nor 'air stands for conscious'.
nor is it saying water and air both 'stand for' passive, because water is a passive element but air is an active element.

By the way, it would have made sense to me if you had said that according the basic principles of the elemental system it is quite impossible to associate the two sides of the hand with 'consious' or 'subconsiouis'
Yes I can go along with that. The conscious /subconscious division in 5 elements is more from base of palm to top.
In palmistry however I was taught that ulna=subconscious, passive, inner and radial = conscious, active, outer.
I still cannot equate subconscious with 'outer' nor conscious with 'inner'.
I know you have removed conscious / subconscious from your 2nd picture........

PS. Finally, after studying & discussing these details, I would like to inform you that I now perceive that the key-principles of the elemental system do not violate the principles that I have described in my second picture. I can now only hope that I have explained & argumented the fundamentals of my observation properly.

So regarding this picture, I still cannot equate ulna side of the palm with outer world, nor radial with inner.
How can you associate luna mount - imagination, intuition, creativity - with 'outer'?


Last edited by Lynn on Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:45 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : correcting quote box)

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:58 pm

Lynn wrote:
Patti wrote:
Thumb up Really nice summation.

The only spot I run into where my spectrum and your spectrum doesn't really jive is the fingers and their assigned elements.

If the mounts below the fingers must be included to allow for 4 elements, then I'd make the mounts Fire. The base of the finger is the materializing of the inspirations/input of the fingertips, so I would see it as Earth instead of the more changeable Water. The most obvious example of this, is the thicker this phalange is, the more the need for tangible results. i.e. the index finger = and good food.

Air or Water works for the fingertips as both relate to sensing and touch.

The middle sections aren't really about action, but instead are more about pondering, planning, organizing... thought, so Fire doesn't seem appropriate.

That leaves elements to be matched to what is left when they are applied to best fit (and ignores the spectrum - from the immaterial to the material)

But... this is the reason I have difficulty using the Elements as a system, because there's always the left overs that get assigned to the left over hand features.
Thanks!

I can see an argument for assigning fire to the digital mounts, but we can also think of the mounts as the 'storehouse of energy' before it filters up to the fingers - the fuel (earth) that the fire needs to burn.
I was also surprised at base phalanx being water. I think the thicker the phalanx, the more you use it. your example of index f is a good one because many people have that as their most developed phalanx - our physical material desires 'I want, I need' = food Laughing


Patti wrote:Looking at Duke's "Chinese Hand Analysis" Skimming through the chapter on fingers and the myriad ways to slice and dice the finger into elemental pieces leaves one realizing that at some point every element is covered in just about every part of the finger... no matter how you cut it.
Yes!

I have been thinking about the mounts below the fingers representing the 4th element in relationship to the fingers. That would seem more appropriate if the entire palm became the 4th element as the other phalanges are really bone segments. Then it would seem that the metacarpals would be the 4th element and the 5th could be metacarpals carpals because they connect all the digits including the Thumb. (this is, if I were to assign elements to the palm Wink )


Last edited by Patti on Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:08 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:05 pm

That would seem more appropriate if the entire palm became the 4th element
In one way it is! Earth.
( the fingers represent the mind, the palm represents the body. The physical body is ruled by earth.)
but then of course we subdivide it all in many different ways!

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:09 pm

Lynn wrote:
That would seem more appropriate if the entire palm became the 4th element
In one way it is! Earth.
( the fingers represent the mind, the palm represents the body. The physical body is ruled by earth.)
but then of course we subdivide it all in many different ways!

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