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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  RishiRahul on Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:08 pm

In palmistry however I was taught that ulna=subconscious, passive, inner and radial = conscious, active, outer.
I still cannot equate subconscious with 'outer' nor conscious with 'inner'.
I know you have removed conscious / subconscious from your 2nd picture........

PS. Finally, after studying & discussing these details, I would like to inform you that I now perceive that the key-principles of the elemental system do not violate the principles that I have described in my second picture. I can now only hope that I have explained & argumented the fundamentals of my observation properly.
So regarding this picture, I still cannot equate ulna side of the palm with outer world, nor radial with inner.
How can you associate luna mount - imagination, intuition, creativity - with 'outer'?

Hi,
Imagination, intuition, creativity is required in any divinationatory craft.

RishiRahul



Last edited by Lynn on Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:21 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added quote boxes)

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:23 pm

Hi Rishi
(by the way I just added quote boxes to your last post)
You said
Imagination, intuition, creativity is required in any divinationatory craft.
yes but don't they originate in the subconscious?

(edit. oops sorry, I meant don't they originate in the inner person)


Last edited by Lynn on Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:04 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:NOTICE: Dukes & Fincham litterally speak of "quadrant analysis for the palm" (Fincham writes: "the palm itself is split into four uneven quadrants"); and the vertical border between the palmar quadrants is defined via the triradius below the middle finger. For this reason it would become troublesome to suggest that a quadrant analysis also includes the fingers...
Yes exactly. It was you who introduced the fingers into it.

Okay, I understand that this implicates that you did not want to include the fingers in the quadrant analysis. But we are talking about the vertical division of the hand... so it would not make sense to only talk about the palm (therefore I had to assume that you were talking about the fingers as well... because you did not mention them explict).

Lynn wrote:
Lynn, beyond my choice of words... you described yourself these key-principles in the elemental approach:

"Lower ulna = water = passive subconscious
Top ulna = air = passive conscious
Lower radial - earth = active subconscious
Upper radial = fire = active conscious"


You have adopted the idea that conscious and subconscious are actually associated with individual elements, but I didn't say that. I am sorry that the way I wrote it seems to have confused you.

Okay, I understand what you are trying to say. But you did write this explicit in your summary-post... so I don't understand why you write "I didn't say that"???



Lynn wrote:The passive/active and conscious/subconscious refer to the division of the palm horizontally and vertically, like a spectrum in each direction.
1) base of palm to digital mounts - subconscious to conscious, and
2) radial to ulna - active to passive.

If I re-write it like this, do you understand what I was saying?
Lower ulna = water = passive subconscious
Lower ulna is the passive subconscious quadrant, which is ruled by water.
Top ulna = air = passive conscious
Top ulna is the passive conscious quadrant, which is ruled by air.
This is not the same as saying 'water stands for subconscious', nor 'air stands for conscious'.
nor is it saying water and air both 'stand for' passive, because water is a passive element but air is an active element.


Lynn, I understand your attempt. But please be aware:

On page 31 Dukes associates 'consciousness' directly with the air element (he writes: "Air = Space/Consciousness"), and his description for the air quadrant' (p.48): "the air quadrant is conscious [and passive]" ... suggests that he describes the pinky + upper ulnar palm quadrant as representing the most 'conscious' parts of the hand.

And additionally one could argue that the ring finger can not be much less 'conscious'... because the other most conscious part of the palm is ruled by fire, and the ring finger is ruled by fire as well.

So, I still think that he has made a direct connection between air and 'conscious' - because... if we are are not allowed to associate 'consciousness' with 'conscious' then I think it would become inevitable to start question the fundamentals of the elemental system (because the basics would then likely turn out to become a game of 'psycho-bla-bla')



Lynn wrote:
By the way, it would have made sense to me if you had said that according the basic principles of the elemental system it is quite impossible to associate the two sides of the hand with 'consious' or 'subconsiouis'
Yes I can go along with that. The conscious /subconscious division in 5 elements is more from base of palm to top.
In palmistry however I was taught that ulna=subconscious, passive, inner and radial = conscious, active, outer.
I still cannot equate subconscious with 'outer' nor conscious with 'inner'.
I know you have removed conscious / subconscious from your 2nd picture........

Well Lynn, I am very glad to see that you fully understand what I described as the most sensible approach (from the elemental perspective).

By the way, which author(s) do you have in mind when you talk about 'palmistry'?

I assume that with the world 'palmistry' you are e.g. refering to ecletic authors such as Nathaniel Altman (who does not present any fundamental approach to understand the hand at all... featured with lot's of descriptions, but his definitions present many contradictive elements: for example: he associates the radial side of the hand with 'active conscious' and the upper side of the hand with 'emotional/conscious'... but he does not explain the meaning at all, in respective: he talks about 'the material world' and 'the world around us' featured with other vague descriptions that appear to have not much solid ground beneath at all. And meanwhile he is referring to the vocabulary used by psychologists such as e.g Freud to which he links the word 'subconsious'... while Freud has explicit described that the word 'subconsious' is a misleading word that should not be connected to Freud's work at all. By the way, Altman this is also the guy who writes in his old books that the life line represents the expected 'longevity'...only to write in his latest book that the life line does not have a connection with 'longevity' at all).


Lynn wrote:
PS. Finally, after studying & discussing these details, I would like to inform you that I now perceive that the key-principles of the elemental system do not violate the principles that I have described in my second picture. I can now only hope that I have explained & argumented the fundamentals of my observation properly.

Lynn wrote:So regarding this picture, I still cannot equate ulna side of the palm with outer world, nor radial with inner.
How can you associate luna mount - imagination, intuition, creativity - with 'outer'?

Lynn, it appears to me that you keep wondering about this ... but regarding the ulnar side I have already refered to the archetype of mercurius + the fact that in hand reading the pinky is always associated with communication & relationships)!

Again, I think one could describe the archetype of mercurius as the most 'outward' oriented archetype.

So, in return I could ask you... after making these references, how can one deny that the pinky is associated with the outer world???


Now, regarding the mount of moon... which only represents a small part (1/4) of the ulnar zone... it may be hard to the connection via the archetype, but for a start you can think like this:

From a planetary point of view the moon always reflects the light of the outer world!

Sorry, I hesitate to start answering your specified associations regarding the mount of moon... because so far in this discussion we have only talked about the fundamental concepts (apart from my references to some aspects associated with the pinky finger of course).

But my answer would start with the connection that I presented in my picture: the mount of moon represents our senses... which require the outer world to get fueled with impressions from outside. And I think our senses also play a role in how imagination, creativity & intuition work - though I realise that this very much depends on how one defines imagination, creativity & intuition.

(One could imagine that it requires to shut down our physical senses for a moment in order to activate our non-physical senses which can manifest through imagination, creativity & intuition, etc.)

Thank you for your input so far Lynn Thumb up


( flower Wow... what a discussion!!! Thumbs up! )

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:25 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
But my answer would start with the connection that I presented in my picture: the mount of moon represents our senses... which require the outer world to get fueled with impressions from outside. And I think our senses also play a role in how imagination, creativity & intuition work - though I realise that this very much depends on how one defines imagination, creativity & intuition.

(One could imagine that it requires to shut down our physical senses for a moment in order to activate our non-physical senses which can manifest through imagination, creativity & intuition, etc.)

[/color]

scratch If this were really true (about senses ruled by the moon)... it would seem the fingertips would be ruled by the moon, as they are the most innervated and sensual part of the hands.

p.s. However, I would suggest possibly relating it to hormones instead?

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:25 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
But my answer would start with the connection that I presented in my picture: the mount of moon represents our senses... which require the outer world to get fueled with impressions from outside. And I think our senses also play a role in how imagination, creativity & intuition work - though I realise that this very much depends on how one defines imagination, creativity & intuition.

(One could imagine that it requires to shut down our physical senses for a moment in order to activate our non-physical senses which can manifest through imagination, creativity & intuition, etc.)

[/color]

scratch If this were really true (about senses ruled by the moon)... it would seem the fingertips would be ruled by the moon, as they are the most innervated and sensual part of the hands.

Patti, our senses include much, much more than just the fingertips. So your association might represent only your perception regarding the senses (not sure that your use of the word 'sensual' is appropriate here).

Beyond sight, hearing, taste smell... our touch is not limited to the fingertips at all.

The TRUTH is that touch actually represents the full 'somatosensory system', see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch

This is e.g. visualised by the sensory cortex!

PS. In the works of e.g Edo Sprong, Ghanshyam Singh Birla, Sasha Fenton & Cheiro you can find more specific info about the senses are associated with the mount of moon (Luna).



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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:46 am

Definitely agree that our senses go beyond the fingertips!

Julius Spier connects the senses with the index finger, and the index finger to the outer world.




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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:50 am

This illustration is from "Mudras" Gertrud Hirschi copied from the book Handlesen by G. Hurlimann (1996)

Another example of dividing the hand.


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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  RishiRahul on Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:57 am

Patti wrote:Definitely agree that our senses go beyond the fingertips!

Julius Spier connects the senses with the index finger, and the index finger to the outer world.





I just love the way, Julius Spier has explained this so precisely...very practical!

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  RishiRahul on Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:11 am

Lynn wrote:
RishiRahul wrote:
The thumb is obviously a Great force in life/palmistry.
If it did not have tremendous inner strength, it could not have performed the outer.

nicely said Thumbs up!

Lynn wrote:Hi Rishi
(by the way I just added quote boxes to your last post)
You said
Imagination, intuition, creativity is required in any divinationatory craft.
yes but don't they originate in the subconscious?

(edit. oops sorry, I meant don't they originate in the inner person)

Hi Lynn,

I dont know what to say here; reason being I dont make strong/vivid demarkations like (a) representing conscious & (b) representing subconscious (c) representing unconscious.

Imagination would certianly be more internal.
Intuition is positively internal.
creativity= a person is born creative; circumstances may support or hinder the expression. Therefore 'internal'

Therefore, I have to agree with you.that they 'originate' from the inside.

Rishi





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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:50 am

Patti wrote:This illustration is from "Mudras" Gertrud Hirschi copied from the book Handlesen by G. Hurlimann (1996)

Another example of dividing the hand.


Hi Patti,

Thanks for sharing the picture; looks like both Hirschi and Hurlimann belong to the German school that I mentioned in some of my posts earlier in this discussion.


wave

PS. One could argue that the 'visual' qualities related to the mount of moon (e.g. visual images, fantasy) also make a connection with the outer world.

Although I understand how phantasy also can be associated with the inner world, one could likewisely argue regarding some elements associated with the mount of venus (regarding e.g. libido)... so there is probably no clear ground to associate the mount of moon solely with the inner world and the mount of venus with the outer world, etc.

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:37 am

RishiRahul wrote:


I just love the way, Julius Spier has explained this so precisely...very practical!

RishiRahul

Very Happy and there are 3 more full pages of info just on the index!

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:05 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:This illustration is from "Mudras" Gertrud Hirschi copied from the book Handlesen by G. Hurlimann (1996)

Another example of dividing the hand.


Hi Patti,

Thanks for sharing the picture; looks like both Hirschi and Hurlimann belong to the German school that I mentioned in some of my posts earlier in this discussion.


wave

PS. One could argue that the 'visual' qualities related to the mount of moon (e.g. visual images, fantasy) also make a connection with the outer world.

Although I understand how phantasy also can be associated with the inner world, one could likewisely argue regarding some elements associated with the mount of venus (regarding e.g. libido)... so there is probably no clear ground to associate the mount of moon solely with the inner world and the mount of venus with the outer world, etc.

I spent the afternoon reading old posts in the Cafe and saw that this same topic of the inner and outer sides of the hands was brought up by Christopher Jones more than a decade ago. Interesting to see how we've 'evolved'. Christopher stated numerous times that he no longer supported ether as relating to the thumb or any other part of the hand for that matter, unless maybe the middle of the palm.

I don't think you can separate inner from outer or subconscious from conscious. It's like light and dark (or your analogy that the moon does not shine by its own light). If you take away light, you have darkness. Light shines into the darkness so far and loses itself in the dark. The energy of the hands are the same... one polarity fades into the other, but I don't think there is a complete single energy standing alone. There is no complete outer self portion or complete inner self portion - the outer self's resource is from the inner self.

We are conscious of having a subconscious, and the subconscious of its own comes into awareness. What may be embarrassing and personal to one may be exactly what another writes on their popular blog about themselves. Inner and outer, conscious and subconscious are simply words to describe these opposites within and outside the self. There is no absolute and common dividing line - it is multidimensional.





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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  RishiRahul on Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:41 am

RishiRahul wrote:
Lynn wrote:
RishiRahul wrote:
The thumb is obviously a Great force in life/palmistry.
If it did not have tremendous inner strength, it could not have performed the outer.

nicely said Thumbs up!

Lynn wrote:Hi Rishi
(by the way I just added quote boxes to your last post)
You said
Imagination, intuition, creativity is required in any divinatory craft.
yes but don't they originate in the subconscious?

(edit. oops sorry, I meant don't they originate in the inner person)

Hi Lynn,

I don't know what to say here; reason being I don't make strong/vivid demarcations like (a) representing conscious & (b) representing subconscious (c) representing unconscious.

Imagination would certainly be more internal.
Intuition is positively internal.
creativity= a person is born creative; circumstances may support or hinder the expression. Therefore 'internal'

Therefore, I have to agree with you.that they 'originate' from the inside.

Rishi


Hi,

A addendum to the above said.

Speaking of it/them 'originating' from the 'inner' is true, but there is more to that.
With the aid of "Moon", we are able to perceive ourselves/ our feelings..

RishiRahul

None of the known palmists have mentioned this in these words, though!

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:25 am

At last I have time to reply to this.....(so much to reply to, hope I get the quote boxes right!)

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:NOTICE: Dukes & Fincham litterally speak of "quadrant analysis for the palm" (Fincham writes: "the palm itself is split into four uneven quadrants"); and the vertical border between the palmar quadrants is defined via the triradius below the middle finger. For this reason it would become troublesome to suggest that a quadrant analysis also includes the fingers...
Yes exactly. It was you who introduced the fingers into it.

Okay, I understand that this implicates that you did not want to include the fingers in the quadrant analysis. But we are talking about the vertical division of the hand... so it would not make sense to only talk about the palm (therefore I had to assume that you were talking about the fingers as well... because you did not mention them explict).
Quadrant analysis is only about the palm. Sorry if I don't explain things about 5-element hand analysis in detail - it is second nature to me and I forget that most people haven't studied it! To me it is obvious that quadrants do not include fingers!

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:
Lynn, beyond my choice of words... you described yourself these key-principles in the elemental approach:

"Lower ulna = water = passive subconscious
Top ulna = air = passive conscious
Lower radial - earth = active subconscious
Upper radial = fire = active conscious"


You have adopted the idea that conscious and subconscious are actually associated with individual elements, but I didn't say that. I am sorry that the way I wrote it seems to have confused you.

Okay, I understand what you are trying to say. But you did write this explicit in your summary-post... so I don't understand why you write "I didn't say that"???
If you take my full quote, I said ...
This is how I see the various zones & divisions :-
Quadrants -
"Lower ulna = water = passive subconscious"
I was describing the rulership & principle of the quadrant, not of the element.

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:The passive/active and conscious/subconscious refer to the division of the palm horizontally and vertically, like a spectrum in each direction.
1) base of palm to digital mounts - subconscious to conscious, and
2) radial to ulna - active to passive.

If I re-write it like this, do you understand what I was saying?
Lower ulna = water = passive subconscious
Lower ulna is the passive subconscious quadrant, which is ruled by water.
Top ulna = air = passive conscious
Top ulna is the passive conscious quadrant, which is ruled by air.
This is not the same as saying 'water stands for subconscious', nor 'air stands for conscious'.
nor is it saying water and air both 'stand for' passive, because water is a passive element but air is an active element.


Lynn, I understand your attempt. But please be aware:

On page 31 Dukes associates 'consciousness' directly with the air element (he writes: "Air = Space/Consciousness"), and his description for the air quadrant' (p.48): "the air quadrant is conscious [and passive]" ... suggests that he describes the pinky + upper ulnar palm quadrant as representing the most 'conscious' parts of the hand.

And additionally one could argue that the ring finger can not be much less 'conscious'... because the other most conscious part of the palm is ruled by fire, and the ring finger is ruled by fire as well.

So, I still think that he has made a direct connection between air and 'conscious' - because... if we are are not allowed to associate 'consciousness' with 'conscious' then I think it would become inevitable to start question the fundamentals of the elemental system (because the basics would then likely turn out to become a game of 'psycho-bla-bla')
Yes, but air rules the mind, nervous system, autonomic nervous system - which also includes 'subconscious'. I have already explained that the way I see it, ALL the fingers represent different types of consciousness, as Dukes also says in chapter 8 eg page 67.


Martijn (admin) wrote:By the way, which author(s) do you have in mind when you talk about 'palmistry'?

I assume that with the world 'palmistry' you are e.g. refering to ecletic authors such as Nathaniel Altman (who does not present any fundamental approach to understand the hand at all... featured with lot's of descriptions, but his definitions present many contradictive elements: for example: he associates the radial side of the hand with 'active conscious' and the upper side of the hand with 'emotional/conscious'... but he does not explain the meaning at all, in respective: he talks about 'the material world' and 'the world around us' featured with other vague descriptions that appear to have not much solid ground beneath at all. And meanwhile he is referring to the vocabulary used by psychologists such as e.g Freud to which he links the word 'subconsious'... while Freud has explicit described that the word 'subconsious' is a misleading word that should not be connected to Freud's work at all. By the way, Altman this is also the guy who writes in his old books that the life line represents the expected 'longevity'...only to write in his latest book that the life line does not have a connection with 'longevity' at all).[/color]
Sorry I haven't had time to look up my original palmistry sources of
"Ulna = subconscious and /or inner"
"Radial = conscious and/or outer".
For sure my teacher Beleta, David Brandon Jones "Practical Palmistry", Sasha Fenton & Malcolm Wright "Living Palmistry", maybe more?

Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn, it appears to me that you keep wondering about this ... but regarding the ulnar side I have already refered to the archetype of mercurius + the fact that in hand reading the pinky is always associated with communication & relationships)!

Again, I think one could describe the archetype of mercurius as the most 'outward' oriented archetype.

So, in return I could ask you... after making these references, how can one deny that the pinky is associated with the outer world???


Now, regarding the mount of moon... which only represents a small part (1/4) of the ulnar zone... it may be hard to the connection via the archetype, but for a start you can think like this:

From a planetary point of view the moon always reflects the light of the outer world!

Sorry, I hesitate to start answering your specified associations regarding the mount of moon... because so far in this discussion we have only talked about the fundamental concepts (apart from my references to some aspects associated with the pinky finger of course).

But my answer would start with the connection that I presented in my picture: the mount of moon represents our senses... which require the outer world to get fueled with impressions from outside. And I think our senses also play a role in how imagination, creativity & intuition work - though I realise that this very much depends on how one defines imagination, creativity & intuition.

(One could imagine that it requires to shut down our physical senses for a moment in order to activate our non-physical senses which can manifest through imagination, creativity & intuition, etc.)

Thank you for your input so far Lynn Thumb up


( flower Wow... what a discussion!!! Thumbs up! )

I see what you are saying about pinky. But I think maybe clutching at straws re moon reflecting light of outer world & our senses. You even gave proof that the senses are widespread thru the hand when you posted the cortical homunculus!

day dreaming thinking The more I think about all this (forgetting about conscious/subconscious) the more I am thinking the palm represents the inner world and the fingers & thumb represent how we connect that to the outer world. I said this originally about the thumb, but I think the fingers can also be considered separately when looking at the divisions of the hand / PALM.

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:32 am

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
But my answer would start with the connection that I presented in my picture: the mount of moon represents our senses... which require the outer world to get fueled with impressions from outside. And I think our senses also play a role in how imagination, creativity & intuition work - though I realise that this very much depends on how one defines imagination, creativity & intuition.

(One could imagine that it requires to shut down our physical senses for a moment in order to activate our non-physical senses which can manifest through imagination, creativity & intuition, etc.)

[/color]

scratch If this were really true (about senses ruled by the moon)... it would seem the fingertips would be ruled by the moon, as they are the most innervated and sensual part of the hands.

p.s. However, I would suggest possibly relating it to hormones instead?

Patti, I understand the fingers as a whole, from digital mounts to tip, as having some connection with the hormones/ endocrine system. eg menopausal women and the 'crazy paving' of white lines crossing the fingertips. Thick basal phalanges & high mounts in underactive thyroid....etc. "Overactive" apollo finger & too much adrenaline / testosterone. Lines on thumb top phalanx relating to pituitary (reflexology also relates thumb to pituitary). Moon mount can also reflect hormonal changes, eg red colour sometimes in pregnant women & all women at 'time of the month'. ??

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:37 am

Patti wrote:Definitely agree that our senses go beyond the fingertips!

Julius Spier connects the senses with the index finger, and the index finger to the outer world.




Patti thanks for sharing these.
I was happy to see that Julius Spier also connects radial side (thumb & index) to outside world. Tho I remember that he also reads lines in reverse to the way I read them!

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:39 am

Patti wrote:This illustration is from "Mudras" Gertrud Hirschi copied from the book Handlesen by G. Hurlimann (1996)

Another example of dividing the hand.


Thanks very much for sharing this also. Thumbs up!

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:44 am

RishiRahul wrote:
Lynn wrote:Hi Rishi
You said
Imagination, intuition, creativity is required in any divinationatory craft.
yes but don't they originate in the subconscious?

(edit. oops sorry, I meant don't they originate in the inner person)

Hi Lynn,

I dont know what to say here; reason being I dont make strong/vivid demarkations like (a) representing conscious & (b) representing subconscious (c) representing unconscious.

Imagination would certianly be more internal.
Intuition is positively internal.
creativity= a person is born creative; circumstances may support or hinder the expression. Therefore 'internal'

Therefore, I have to agree with you.that they 'originate' from the inside.

Rishi

hi Rishi, many thanks for your reply. I was also thinking about start of heartline on ulna side, confirming that our emotions start in the inner person (ulna) . But since then I was thinking about start of headline being on radial side (which I associate with 'outer') yet I could apply my own arguments with regard to the start of the headline - don't thoughts originate in the 'inner person'.
Laughing Laughing

ok there are more posts to think about & reply to, but I'm done for tonight!!! Smile

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  RishiRahul on Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:05 am

Lynn wrote:
RishiRahul wrote:
Lynn wrote:Hi Rishi
You said
Imagination, intuition, creativity is required in any divinationatory craft.
yes but don't they originate in the subconscious?

(edit. oops sorry, I meant don't they originate in the inner person)

Hi Lynn,

I dont know what to say here; reason being I dont make strong/vivid demarkations like (a) representing conscious & (b) representing subconscious (c) representing unconscious.

Imagination would certianly be more internal.
Intuition is positively internal.
creativity= a person is born creative; circumstances may support or hinder the expression. Therefore 'internal'

Therefore, I have to agree with you.that they 'originate' from the inside.

Rishi

hi Rishi, many thanks for your reply. I was also thinking about start of heartline on ulna side, confirming that our emotions start in the inner person (ulna) . But since then I was thinking about start of headline being on radial side (which I associate with 'outer') yet I could apply my own arguments with regard to the start of the headline - don't thoughts originate in the 'inner person'.
Laughing Laughing

ok there are more posts to think about & reply to, but I'm done for tonight!!! Smile

Hi Lynn,

I am not used to the terminology (ulna & radial).
I guess ulna is inner & radial is outer; Right?

But of course! thoughts certainly do 'originate' in the 'inner ' person; no doubt about this!

Rishi

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Too many assumptions all over the place.....

Post  Christopher Jones on Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:30 am

Martijn wrote:

For this reason I have tried to create a value-free map of the hand (see picture above), describing the role of the thumb in the perspective of the full hand - without using any theological- nor any philosophical vocabulary.
Hi Martijn,

with all due respect Martijn, you have not managed to create a value-free map of the hand.... Words like 'identity', 'ego', 'self' are not value-free and all have specific philosophical indications and/or ontological assumptions. You have just let Kant and Plato in again by the back door.

The problem with such an inherent transcendentalist approach is that it necessarily presumes there would be a 'one-thing' that is the most important part of the hand; or a 'one-thing' that is the essence of a person. However, such transcendentalism overlooks the self-evident fact that hands change. Souls, by their nature, cannot.

Of course the thumb is the most important digit in the hand. But that is primarily from an anthropological and evolutionary perspective. Should we take that view and apply it to the reading/interpreation of hands? There have always been those authors who said that they could do accurate readings of the whole personality from the thumb alone; but that just means they are probably just being a bit lazy. I can do readings from the fingerprints alone; but that does not justify me making any claims about their ontological significance...

.To touch on the allocation of the element Ether as it was applied to the thumb in Elemental Cheirology, Ether was seen as the element of integration. So the strength of the thumb was a measure of how you were able to express the characteristics seen in other parts of the hand.

Taking the strength of the thumb as an indication of the control or influence you have over the world around you, so the thumb side of the hand was considered as the ‘external’ side of the hand. Apes have small thumbs and little control over their environments; humans have stronger thumbs and an oppositional grasp which allows them to manipulate and influence the world.

The ‘value free’ terms you have applied to the thumb (feeling, thought, will) are of course also not ‘value free’. There is, for example, no such concept of ‘will’ in the Buddhist Abhidharma where the nature and contents of consciousness is discussed at great length. So, again, if you are going to use these terms you need to say where they came from and what they mean….

For my part, my rusty memory says that the first person to label the thumb in this way was William Benham - and I think he used Desire, Reason and Will. Apologies if I have got this wrong, its been more that 15yrs since I read that book. However, he did make a great deal of the relative strength of the two thumb phalanges as being the balance between Reason and Will in the sense that it showed whether you were impulsive or more self-controlled. So, I am disappointed that you have chosen to follow nineteenth century morality as the ‘value-free’ values you are imposing on the thumb.

Of course, you may have got these from that well-known moron Edo Sprong whose written works are just extensive unthinking plagiarisms of earlier generations of idiots. Why you should quote him or refer to him at all is beyond me.

However, it does not surprise me that you refer to PDC; after all, Holtzman is just another transcendentalist.

And that insight is in itself enough to show why so many of his ideas are just so wrong.




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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:34 am

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn, it appears to me that you keep wondering about this ... but regarding the ulnar side I have already refered to the archetype of mercurius + the fact that in hand reading the pinky is always associated with communication & relationships)!

Again, I think one could describe the archetype of mercurius as the most 'outward' oriented archetype.

So, in return I could ask you... after making these references, how can one deny that the pinky is associated with the outer world???


Now, regarding the mount of moon... which only represents a small part (1/4) of the ulnar zone... it may be hard to the connection via the archetype, but for a start you can think like this:

From a planetary point of view the moon always reflects the light of the outer world!

Sorry, I hesitate to start answering your specified associations regarding the mount of moon... because so far in this discussion we have only talked about the fundamental concepts (apart from my references to some aspects associated with the pinky finger of course).

But my answer would start with the connection that I presented in my picture: the mount of moon represents our senses... which require the outer world to get fueled with impressions from outside. And I think our senses also play a role in how imagination, creativity & intuition work - though I realise that this very much depends on how one defines imagination, creativity & intuition.

(One could imagine that it requires to shut down our physical senses for a moment in order to activate our non-physical senses which can manifest through imagination, creativity & intuition, etc.)

Thank you for your input so far Lynn Thumb up


( flower Wow... what a discussion!!! Thumbs up! )

I see what you are saying about pinky. But I think maybe clutching at straws re moon reflecting light of outer world & our senses. You even gave proof that the senses are widespread thru the hand when you posted the cortical homunculus!
...

Lynn, I refered to the planetary perspective as a symbolic representation to explain how 'fantasy' can be understood as a mental phenomenon (which of course by principle relates to the inner world) that for a large part origins in how people related with the outer world.

(You may perceive this as 'clutching straws'... but I see a parallel in how the sun light gets reflected at the mount of moon and how the outer world gets reflected as the shapes of the phantasies)

Also, please be aware in this perspective how a life line entering the mount of moon is traditionally also associated with voyages, traveling & a more outward life style... and one can also think about the so-called 'travel lines', which are always associated with the mount of moon!

So, I think it would require a full analysis of the associated qualities with the mount of moon... before one can say that the mount of moon relates to the inner or outer world.


Benham used the word 'imagination', which he associates with the "mind's eye". And he also writes:

"It is entirely because of the possession of imagination, a quality of mind which does not belong to the lower animals, and which gives to man the ability to form mental pictures, that certain words, sounds, or signs convery meanings - in short, that we have the power of speaking and communicating with each other."

So, one can visualize this as how the mount of moon (imagination) provides the necessary mental foundation for the manifestation of mercurius (communication).

Therefore I think it is proably far to easy to simply assume that phantasy is the key-element for the mount of moon... because phantasy is actually a quality of the mind - while the mount of moon is said to represent a part of the 'body' (where the fingers are associated to represent the 'mind').


At Wikipedia it is explained how in the perspective of 21th centruy psychology fantasy also became recognized as a form of interpersonal communication, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_(psychology)#The_fantasy_principle

"The fantasy principle

The postmodern intersubjectivity of the 21st century has seen a new interest in fantasy as a form of interpersonal communication. Here, we are told, 'We need to go beyond the pleasure principle, the reality principle, and repetition compulsion to...the fantasy principle ' - 'not, as Freud did, reduce fantasies to wishes...[but consider] all other imaginable emotions';[27] and thus envisage emotional fantasies as a possible means of moving beyond stereotypes to more nuanced forms of personal and social relating."



thinking So, at the end... maybe what is missing in our discussion so far is a proper analysis of why the palm became associated with the 'body' and the fingers with the 'mind'...???

Because at first sight it would make much more sense to simply assume that the (mental) 'mind' SHOULD require to relate to our 'inner world' only... and not to the outer world! Correct???

scratch ... rolling on the floor ... lol! ... Looks like in this discussion we are confronted with that the typical 'eclectic' use of vocabulary leads to fundamental problems as soon as one starts questioning the fundamental principles & definitions behind the words!

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:37 am

RishiRahul wrote:Hi Lynn,

I am not used to the terminology (ulna & radial).
I guess ulna is inner & radial is outer; Right?

But of course! thoughts certainly do 'originate' in the 'inner ' person; no doubt about this!

Rishi

Ulna side of the hand is the little finger side, radial side is the thumb side.

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:45 am

Lynn wrote:...

day dreaming thinking The more I think about all this (forgetting about conscious/subconscious) the more I am thinking the palm represents the inner world and the fingers & thumb represent how we connect that to the outer world. I said this originally about the thumb, but I think the fingers can also be considered separately when looking at the divisions of the hand / PALM.

.... thinking

Lynn, at first sight this may appear to make sense. However, if fingers & thumb would get associated with 'outer world'... this would create a contradiction with the idea that the fingers represent the 'mind'.

Because by principle, the 'mind' is in psychology defined as "the complex of cognitive faculties"... and since cognition and thought relate to our inner world, your proposal would not make sense in the perspective of the traditional representation of body & mind in the hand.

And you proposal would also create a contradiction regarding a principle that appears to be used in all hand reading systems: the 2nd phalange of the thumb gets associated with 'thought' (thinking)... which can only be described to represent the inner world.

Do these considerations of mine make sense now for you?

( geek ... I hope so!)

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Christopher Jones on Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:54 am

Martijn wrote:

And you proposal would also create a contradiction regarding a principle that appears to be used in all hand reading systems: the 2nd phalange of the thumb gets associated with 'thought' (thinking)... which can only be described to represent the inner world.

The lower phalange of the thumb was never associated with 'thought' or 'thinking' in the Elemental Cheirological system, so your assumption here Martijn is entirely incorrect. As already mentioned, in elemental cheirology, the thumb was associated with Ether; and there is a vast difference between Air and Ether.

As previously mentioned, it was Benham who put 'thought' on the lower phalange of the thumb with no apparent greater justification than the idea of impulse control. Except he did not put 'thought' on the thumb, he put Reason - which is an altogether different thing.

You really should have done that beginners course in elemental cheirology with Hidde all those years ago. So much of this thread is digressions and distractions based on your lack of familiarity with the elemental system.....

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Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:01 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote: thinking So, at the end... maybe what is missing in our discussion so far is a proper analysis of why the palm became associated with the 'body' and the fingers with the 'mind'...??
Because at first sight it would make much more sense to simply assume that the (mental) 'mind' SHOULD require to relate to our 'inner world' only... and not to the outer world! Correct???

Martijn, I already explained.
"There are lots of different ways of looking at the zones and divisions of the hand......
everything can be subdivided, and subdivided again and again.....

Hand shape -
Palm vs fingers - the fingers represent the mind, the palm represents the body. They reflect the general mind/body balance of a person. (this can be used at first glance on looking at a hand)
Fingers predominate = Long fingers (air and water hands) the mind predominates over the body. ie mental activities are most important, inner world is more dominant over the physical, active world. .
Palm predominates = Short fingers (earth and fire hands) the body predominates over the mind. (ie physical activities ‘doing’ predominates over ‘thinking’)"

However, if fingers & thumb would get associated with 'outer world'... this would create a contradiction with the idea that the fingers represent the 'mind'.
I suggested " the palm represents the inner world and .the fingers & thumb represent how we connect that to the outer world." not the outer world itself. A vehicle to connect with the outer world.

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