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Post  Patti on Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:05 pm

Again, It's imossible to put fire and air under a microscope... because in physical terms one can only do this with earth and water! And therefore Chirstopher's association for 'fire' with the tangible... is only bullocks!

A microscope is an Earth object. Why do you feel it's necessary to measure Fire and Air with Earth?
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:07 pm

Lynn,

Christopher writes on page 73:

"If you have a pattern of experience at one level, then it will also manifest at all other levels. If you are describing something psychological then you are also describing the person's physical, emotional and expressive orientation."

I think this implicates that the principles of the Yin-Yang philosphy always manifest at all levels likewise.

And thus, because fire and air are represent 'Yang'... both should always get associated with the assessory principles!


For example:

When we take 4 boxes and fill it each with one of the 4 elements (earth, water, fire and air) and the close the boxes... when we open all 4 boxes only the boxes containg earth and water will not loose it's content inside!

Fire & air will seek their way outwards!


And thus, it's bullocks to say that earth is among the more 'outward directed elements' (for any perspective), because earth is actually 'passive' and thus 'inactive' - which implicates that it is not 'directed' at all, because it's property is actually inert!

So, this counts for all levels: physical (= inert matter), social (family oriented = fixed), emotional (introvert) and psychological (oriented on the tangible).


And thus regarding Christopher's words:

"Earth and fire are the most outward directed elements. They are tangible and expressive; we see a body's body and actions."

It doesn't make sense that Christopher associates earth with 'more directed outward' (because fire and air are more outward directed than earth), and it also doesn't make sense that Christopher associates 'fire' with the tangible (because earth and water are more tangible than fire).

And it would be a violation of a fundamental elemental rule to suggest that at any level of existance a Yin element can become a Yang element, or vice versa! Again, form a physical point of view 'action' can only be witnessed through the physical (tangable) level... but the same is actually also true for 'water' AND 'air'!

So, Christopher reasoning is actually misleading... because he suggests that we can only see "body and their actions", but he should have said from an elemental point of view that one can only see the body (earth = tangible)... and the body is the 'instrument' to perceive the other elements: emotion (water), action (fire), cognition (air)!

___________________________________________
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Post  Patti on Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:08 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:
Jennifer describes the earth archetype as a 'receptive' element
So does Christopher, as quoted last night.
Earth and Water are feminine, receptive, placid.

Where did Christopher describe earth as 'receptive'?

(Wake up Lynn... on page 74 Christopher describes fire as 'expressive'... and that is the opposite of 'receptive'; therefore this doesn't make sense: again, earth or one could describe it as crystalized and the energy is kept together... which concerns an 'inward' directed process! Christopher has completely misunderstood things from a physical point of view... his arguments are delusional in the sense that his descriptions indicate that he does not understand how physical matter works. Lynn, I spend 4 year studying technical physics... so I know what I am talking about!)

Reading hands involves quantum physics.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:18 pm

Patti wrote:
Again, It's imossible to put fire and air under a microscope... because in physical terms one can only do this with earth and water! And therefore Chirstopher's association for 'fire' with the tangible... is only bullocks!

A microscope is an Earth object. Why do you feel it's necessary to measure Fire and Air with Earth?

Patti... my microsope example serves to illustrate how the various elements work on a physical level. And it is relevant because of the basic priciple of the elemental philosophy describes that phenomena always require to manifest likewise on all levels, which Christopher himself described as:

"If you are describing something psychological then you are also describing the person's physical, emotional and expressive orientation."

Christopher's association is certainly not true on a physcial level, and therefore according the elemental philosophy is can also not be true for other levels!

(See my previous posts where I also mentioned this sentence)

___________________________________________
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Post  Patti on Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:19 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:...
I can not understand why he associates earth and fire with 'tangible'!.....
And by the way, Jennifer describes fire as having 'no form
Fire has no form - no shape, it is always moving. It is tangible in the sense you can see it, feel it's heat. It's less tangible than earth and water, and more tangible than air. Principle of graduated materiality.

Lynn, just like one can feel fire... one can also feel water!

Your words for fire "It's less tangible than earth and water" is the essence of what I am talking about when I speak of 'delusional reasoning'... because from your words (which are true!) one can never conclude that fire is more tangible than water!

However, Christopher does suggest that fire is more tangible dan water by saying:

"Earth and fire are the more outwardly directed elements. They are tangible and expressive; ..."

This suggests that water is less tangible... but that is bullocks, especially from the physical perspective!

Simples!

You are getting caught up in the physics of water. In hand reading water becomes the analogy for feelings and emotions. Sometimes feelings may cause people to break out in a sweat or shed tears and we see physical water coming from a human body. The sweating (Water) is typically proceeded by the body (Earth) heating (Fire) up in regards to a mental (Air) reaction (Fire). Tears can also be seen as a material (earth) manifestation of emotions (water).
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:22 pm

Patti wrote:
Lynn, you're refering that Christopher is talking there about the physical perspective... but I have described in my earlier post that even from the physical perspective fire can not be associated with the entagible, because one can not 'touch' it!

Fire is sensed as heat, warmth. Such as the warmth from the sun.

CORRECTION: Where I wrote 'entagible' I should have wirtten 'tangible'.

(I have corrected this now as well in THIS post)

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Post  Patti on Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:33 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:

And it would be a violation of a fundamental elemental rule to suggest that at any level of existance a Yin element can become a Yang element, or vice versa! Again, form a physical point of view 'action' can only be witnessed through the physical (tangable) level... but the same is actually also true for 'water' AND 'air'!

This is a very inaccurate statement. The dots inside the yin/yang symbol (as I already mentioned) show there is always a degree of one in the other making it possible for the balance to shift from yin to yang in varying degrees. Never fully yang and never fully yin.

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Post  Patti on Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:42 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Again, It's imossible to put fire and air under a microscope... because in physical terms one can only do this with earth and water! And therefore Chirstopher's association for 'fire' with the tangible... is only bullocks!

A microscope is an Earth object. Why do you feel it's necessary to measure Fire and Air with Earth?

Patti... my microsope example serves to illustrate how the various elements work on a physical level. And it is relevant because of the basic priciple of the elemental philosophy describes that phenomena always require to manifest likewise on all levels, which Christopher himself described as:

"If you are describing something psychological then you are also describing the person's physical, emotional and expressive orientation."

Christopher's association is certainly not true on a physcial level, and therefore according the elemental philosophy is can also not be true for other levels!

(See my previous posts where I also mentioned this sentence)

I think your confusion is that you are taking the concept of the elements too scientifically and hanging onto the meanings of words while missing the inferences and essences that the use of the elements is trying to convey.

Kind of reminds me when I took my first class in behaviorism.

p.s.: It would help to have a few fine lines, a well developed hypothenar area, a Girdle of Venus, good Mercury/Health line or some empathy lnes to fully comprehend the essences of the various aspects of the hands.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:58 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:...
I can not understand why he associates earth and fire with 'tangible'!.....
And by the way, Jennifer describes fire as having 'no form
Fire has no form - no shape, it is always moving. It is tangible in the sense you can see it, feel it's heat. It's less tangible than earth and water, and more tangible than air. Principle of graduated materiality.

Lynn, just like one can feel fire... one can also feel water!

Your words for fire "It's less tangible than earth and water" is the essence of what I am talking about when I speak of 'delusional reasoning'... because from your words (which are true!) one can never conclude that fire is more tangible than water!

However, Christopher does suggest that fire is more tangible dan water by saying:

"Earth and fire are the more outwardly directed elements. They are tangible and expressive; ..."

This suggests that water is less tangible... but that is bullocks, especially from the physical perspective!

Simples!

You are getting caught up in the physics of water. In hand reading water becomes the analogy for feelings and emotions. Sometimes feelings may cause people to break out in a sweat or shed tears and we see physical water coming from a human body. The sweating (Water) is typically proceeded by the body (Earth) heating (Fire) up in regards to a mental (Air) reaction (Fire). Tears can also be seen as a material (earth) manifestation of emotions (water).

Patti, I am not getting caught up in anything here at all (and I am also not 'confused' about anything, as you suggested in your latest post).

The thing here is... Lynn got caught up in Christopher's keywords, and as a result she was not able to recognize where Johnny's word-choice origins from.

(If Lynn would tell me that she recognizes the validity of my observations but that she prefers to continue with Christopher's guidelines anyway even while his guidelines are contradicted by the works Dukes, Fincham & Hirsch, then I would consider this discussion as finished. But so far I only get confronted with defensive statements that I must have misunderstood the whole idea of the elemental system or the perspective of Christopher's specific statements... and I see no acknowledgement at all for the obvious contradictions between Christopher's guidelines & the ideas described by the other elemental authors that I today also have described as a violation of the basic perspective of the Yin-Yang philosophy with a reference to Chirstopher's own words!)


PS. Sorry Patti, your association that hand reading would require 'quantum physica' is bullocksI And I can know it because Quantum Physics was a part of my study in Natural Physics.

However, in the perspective of your association with Quantum Physics... I am waiting for Lynn to answer a question of mine that relates to how Christopher connected the 4 'states of matter' with the 4 elements - but this is not a the level of Quantum Physics which relates to a smaller level of existence!

(I asked this question because I am especially interested to hear how Christopher has connected gas & plasma with the two elements fire & air... because the order of Christopher's words suggests that he made incorrect associations regarding the fundamental difference between gas and plasma. And on page 73 Christopher also associated ether with: "Just as we can see coloured light, but not white light"... while it is just a fact that can see white light! So, in his way of describing things he is rather associative where facts get mixed with fantasies that quite often violate the hard facts & basic principles!)



___________________________________________
sunny

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:04 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:

And it would be a violation of a fundamental elemental rule to suggest that at any level of existance a Yin element can become a Yang element, or vice versa! Again, form a physical point of view 'action' can only be witnessed through the physical (tangable) level... but the same is actually also true for 'water' AND 'air'!

This is a very inaccurate statement. The dots inside the yin/yang symbol (as I already mentioned) show there is always a degree of one in the other making it possible for the balance to shift from yin to yang in varying degrees. Never fully yang and never fully yin.


Patti, I actually agree with your statement regarding the Yin-Yang symbol... but that does not relate to what I have described.

Please be aware that Lynn did not recognize how Johnny's word-choice directly relates to Dukes principles. And how come that she could not recognize it? Because of Christoper's associations regarding thumb = outer!

We had already discovered that Dukes does not use the association thumb is outer; because he connects 'public' (outer) with the dorsal side of the hand AND with the Yang elements: Fire + Air.

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Post  Patti on Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:23 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:...
I can not understand why he associates earth and fire with 'tangible'!.....
And by the way, Jennifer describes fire as having 'no form
Fire has no form - no shape, it is always moving. It is tangible in the sense you can see it, feel it's heat. It's less tangible than earth and water, and more tangible than air. Principle of graduated materiality.

Lynn, just like one can feel fire... one can also feel water!

Your words for fire "It's less tangible than earth and water" is the essence of what I am talking about when I speak of 'delusional reasoning'... because from your words (which are true!) one can never conclude that fire is more tangible than water!

However, Christopher does suggest that fire is more tangible dan water by saying:

"Earth and fire are the more outwardly directed elements. They are tangible and expressive; ..."

This suggests that water is less tangible... but that is bullocks, especially from the physical perspective!

Simples!

You are getting caught up in the physics of water. In hand reading water becomes the analogy for feelings and emotions. Sometimes feelings may cause people to break out in a sweat or shed tears and we see physical water coming from a human body. The sweating (Water) is typically proceeded by the body (Earth) heating (Fire) up in regards to a mental (Air) reaction (Fire). Tears can also be seen as a material (earth) manifestation of emotions (water).

Patti, I am not getting caught up in anything here at all (and I am also not 'confused' about anything, as you suggested in your latest post).

The thing here is... Lynn got caught up in Christopher's keywords, and as a result she was not able to recognize where Johnny's word-choice origins from.

(If Lynn would tell me that she recognizes the validity of my observations but that she prefers to continue with Christopher's guidelines anyway even while his guidelines are contradicted by the works Dukes, Fincham & Hirsch, then I would consider this discussion as finished. But so far I only get confronted with defensive statements that I must have misunderstood the whole idea of the elemental system or the perspective of Christopher's specific statements... and I see no acknowledgement at all for the obvious contradictions between Christopher's guidelines & the ideas described by the other elemental authors that I today also have described as a violation of the basic perspective of the Yin-Yang philosophy with a reference to Chirstopher's own words!)


PS. Sorry Patti, your association that hand reading would require 'quantum physica' is bullocksI And I can know it because Quantum Physics was a part of my study in Natural Physics.

However, in the perspective of your association with Quantum Physics... I am waiting for Lynn to answer a question of mine that relates to how Christopher connected the 4 'states of matter' with the 4 elements - but this is not a the level of Quantum Physics which relates to a smaller level of existence!

(I asked this question because I am especially interested to hear how Christopher has connected gas & plasma with the two elements fire & air... because the order of Christopher's words suggests that he made incorrect associations regarding the fundamental difference between gas and plasma. And on page 73 Christopher also associated ether with: "Just as we can see coloured light, but not white light"... while it is just a fact that can see white light! So, in his way of describing things he is rather associative where facts get mixed with fantasies that quite often violate the hard facts & basic principles!)



If you are not building your chart based on the elemental system, why does it matter what definitions Lynn, Johnny, Dukes or Christopher choose to assign. The 'thing' that is being described by elements, yin/yang and other systems of describing the universe and energy is the essence. This essence is being put into language from a personal viewpoint. The idea is to 'teach' someone how to grasp this energy.

You seem to be hoping that this essence can be mapped and quantified into a chart of keywords, as if a person's life could be simplified to such, and then this chart to be representative of a personality.


Last edited by Patti on Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:26 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:


However, Sue... I am still wondering: what made you think that my picture is all focused on the elemental system?

(Maybe the input by another member made you think so? confused )


NOTICE: I have read your latest comment before I post this... and while you have started talking about some kind of 'fundamental level', you still did not specify anything to a specific word in my chart - and you also didn't mention any specific topic or issue that you think is missing in my chart. (You only talked about the name + element that Fincham is using for the index finger in his books... but both words ['mirror finger' & 'water finger'] are not in my chart, and I also never even considered to include those words in my chart!)[/color]

lol!

What a topic!
The majority of this discussion has been about picking Lynn's brain regarding Dukes, Fincham and Jones' teachings and what Lynn knows in regards to the 5E system that she uses.
The charts represent quadrants filled with keywords and authors names that have nothing to do (directly) with the 5E system.
And the title of the topic offered for discussion is "The thumb represents the inner essence of man" suggest something new is being presented, but so far it's the same inner essence being projected outwards.

It's really unfair to question with puzzlement why one might think the chart reflects the 5E system, the majority of this thread has been a discussion between you and Lynn about details of this very system and then you'd come to some eureka moment and present a new and improved chart, which we'd all veto and you and Lynn would start again.


Patti, I am surprised by your association... because I think this implicates that you were not familiar at all with the idea that the thumb gets associated with the inner world in various schools of hand reading (and the pinky with the outer world).

Though, maybe I should not be surprized after Lynn revealed in her first post that she got confused by the title & my introduction post regarding the thumb being associated with the inner world.


Now I wonder... were you both not familiar with the various books presented by Sprong & Birla since 1988? Or is it just a matter of that you did not read their books properly?

By the way, I was not trying to present something 'new' in this topic; my purpose was to present an 'overview' of the similarities between the works of various hand reading authors & hand reading systems. However, during the discussion and my attempts to improve the map my attention got caught on that it became necessary to present a map with key-words that together present a consistent perspective regarding the various functions of the mind.

But I had not foreseen that we would find ourselves studying the fundamentals as deep as we have during the past week.

So, despite that my map is not yet finished... this has become a very interesting experience for multiple reasons.

For sure, your input has been helpful and informative!

EDIT: And you are welcome to give more input... just like you did regarding the charts presented by various authors!


Thumb up


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post  Lynn on Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:29 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn... while reading Chirstopher's first paragraph I have a rather simple question for you to answer:

Christopher describes the four 'different states of matter': solid, liquid, gas, and plasma. Can you please tell me how Christopher connected them with the four elements: earth, water, fire and air?

(I'll give you a hint in advance why I ask this question... my attention got focussed on the 'order' that he presented the four 'different states of matter'!)

Thanks!

I think it's obvious.
earth - solid
water - liquid
air - gas
plasma - fire

Just to make it CRYSTAL CLEAR........ when I said
"I'm glad it's all crystal clear to you Martijn. That means we don't have to discuss it any further. cheers "
that means I'm done with this discussion. I have no motivation to reply to it when almost everything I say, quote, or try to explain is misunderstood, dismissed, rubbished etc. If I am as mistaken, confused and lacking in understanding as you say Martijn, I have no idea why you keep asking me questions.

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Post  Patti on Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:30 pm

hahaha read their books properly! lol!

I read hands and people in person to learn how to read hands. I look through the books for different perspectives.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:31 pm

Patti wrote:hahaha read their books properly! lol!

I read hands and people in person to learn how to read hands. I look through the books for different perspectives.


Patti, do you have a copy of Sprong's book and Birla's books?

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Post  Patti on Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:32 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn... while reading Chirstopher's first paragraph I have a rather simple question for you to answer:

Christopher describes the four 'different states of matter': solid, liquid, gas, and plasma. Can you please tell me how Christopher connected them with the four elements: earth, water, fire and air?

(I'll give you a hint in advance why I ask this question... my attention got focussed on the 'order' that he presented the four 'different states of matter'!)

Thanks!

I think it's obvious.
earth - solid
water - liquid
air - gas
plasma - fire

Just to make it CRYSTAL CLEAR........ when I said
"I'm glad it's all crystal clear to you Martijn. That means we don't have to discuss it any further. cheers "
that means I'm done with this discussion. I have no motivation to reply to it when almost everything I say, quote, or try to explain is misunderstood, dismissed, rubbished etc. If I am as mistaken, confused and lacking in understanding as you say Martijn, I have no idea why you keep asking me questions.

applause
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Post  Patti on Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:34 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:hahaha read their books properly! lol!

I read hands and people in person to learn how to read hands. I look through the books for different perspectives.


Patti, do you have a copy of Sprong's book and Birla's books?

I have two books by Birla and one by Sprong.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:47 pm

Patti wrote:
4) In terms of psychology one can connect earth with sensing, water with feeling, fire with intuition, and air with thinking. Now... which of the psychological functions relate to the tangible world? I think the answer is pretty obvious: sensing is the most tangible psychological function. And one can speculate about which function is then the most tangible... but by principle one can not connect the other 3 functions with tangibility at all! So, Christopher's association to connect fire with tangibility... is another fundamental mistake - because he should have connected it by principle with earth only - and meanwhile he has not explained his association at all, nor has he informed his students that this could be perceived as a fundamental inconsistency regarding the principles used for the active and passive hand!
Sensing is tangible? Touch, taste, smelling, hearing and seeing. How are these things tangible?


Well Patti, maybe I should have written:

"Now... which of the psychological functions relate to the tangible world? I think the answer is pretty obvious: sensing (e.g. associated with 'touch') is the most tangible psychological function"

(Because only a physical level the word 'tangible' is first associated with touch, but at other levels it also gets associated with 'real things' possible to be retreated as fact, etc.)

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:50 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:hahaha read their books properly! lol!

I read hands and people in person to learn how to read hands. I look through the books for different perspectives.


Patti, do you have a copy of Sprong's book and Birla's books?

I have two books by Birla and one by Sprong.

Okay, thanks for your answer (there are no other books).

This leaves me wondering... were you familiar with their idea about associating the thumb with inner world before I started this topic?

(Sue & Lynn expressed that they were not familiar with this idea)

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Post  Patti on Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:27 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:hahaha read their books properly! lol!

I read hands and people in person to learn how to read hands. I look through the books for different perspectives.


Patti, do you have a copy of Sprong's book and Birla's books?

I have two books by Birla and one by Sprong.

Okay, thanks for your answer (there are no other books).

This leaves me wondering... were you familiar with their idea about associating the thumb with inner world before I started this topic?

(Sue & Lynn expressed that they were not familiar with this idea)

Not off the top of my head. I'm away from my books now, will take a look later.

But, most of us that have already gotten past the basics and are actually reading hands, look for common threads of underlying similarities when there is conflict in 'meanings' from author to author.

I wouldn't have gotten too hung up on the fact that some authors describe the inner nature of an aspect and another dwells on the outer aspect of the same feature.

There is an inner nature to the entire hand and the outer expression of this inner nature. Some authors may by their own biased nature focus on one or the other as the only essence. That doesn't make them entirely correct or incorrect - just incomplete.

There aren't many feminine and inner idioms, if any, related to the thumb.

under someone's thumb - controlling - active
thumbs up - active
thumbs down - active
thumb your nose - active
thumb a ride - sticking the thumb out into the public to get attention for action i.e. a ride
thumbing through a book - active
stick out like a sore thumb - active
rule of thumb - controlling - active
a green thumb - active
twiddling thumbs - active - outer show of inner boredom

In most of these hand positions above, the rest of the fingers are curled into the palm and only the thumb is sticking out and exposed to the public.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:33 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn... while reading Chirstopher's first paragraph I have a rather simple question for you to answer:

Christopher describes the four 'different states of matter': solid, liquid, gas, and plasma. Can you please tell me how Christopher connected them with the four elements: earth, water, fire and air?

(I'll give you a hint in advance why I ask this question... my attention got focussed on the 'order' that he presented the four 'different states of matter'!)

Thanks!

I think it's obvious.
earth - solid
water - liquid
air - gas
plasma - fire

Just to make it CRYSTAL CLEAR........ when I said
"I'm glad it's all crystal clear to you Martijn. That means we don't have to discuss it any further. cheers "
that means I'm done with this discussion. I have no motivation to reply to it when almost everything I say, quote, or try to explain is misunderstood, dismissed, rubbished etc. If I am as mistaken, confused and lacking in understanding as you say Martijn, I have no idea why you keep asking me questions.

Thanks Lynn!


Okay, I understand your feelings.

As a final statement I will specify my problem with Christopher's guidelines regarding the use of key-words in a manner that result in the following problem:

In his writings (p.74) Christopher used the following concept:
earth + fire = expressive vs water + air = ...??? confused

thinking Lynn, I think the word 'repressive' is most accurate oposite polarity for the words 'expressive' (since 'receptive' is already in use against 'creative' according your notes)... and because 'repressive' itself appears to be a typical earth quality, I think Christopher's association does not make sense at all!


Anyway Lynn, I guess there is not much choice left for me then to accept your decision that you're done with this discussion.


Thanks!


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post  Patti on Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:40 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
4) In terms of psychology one can connect earth with sensing, water with feeling, fire with intuition, and air with thinking. Now... which of the psychological functions relate to the tangible world? I think the answer is pretty obvious: sensing is the most tangible psychological function. And one can speculate about which function is then the most tangible... but by principle one can not connect the other 3 functions with tangibility at all! So, Christopher's association to connect fire with tangibility... is another fundamental mistake - because he should have connected it by principle with earth only - and meanwhile he has not explained his association at all, nor has he informed his students that this could be perceived as a fundamental inconsistency regarding the principles used for the active and passive hand!
Sensing is tangible? Touch, taste, smelling, hearing and seeing. How are these things tangible?


Well Patti, maybe I should have written:

"Now... which of the psychological functions relate to the tangible world? I think the answer is pretty obvious: sensing (e.g. associated with 'touch') is the most tangible psychological function"

(Because only a physical level the word 'tangible' is first associated with touch, but at other levels it also gets associated with 'real things' possible to be retreated as fact, etc.)

This does make sense. Smile But, earlier I said the fingertips related to senses or sensuality because they are more sensitive to touch than any other part of the hand and the index fingertip is the most sensitive. (by the way sensuality means "of the senses" http://psychologytoday.tests.psychtests.com/take_test.php?idRegTest=1327) I'd also relate the area under the fingers to the senses as well. Which is why it's very important not to get lost in quadrants and halves as the only components involved in combination.

It's really best to stick to an author that resonates with your own philosophies and others that complement that information and from there test out controversial meanings to check for accuracy in readings.

If all the authors were in agreement, what is the use of any new works? At the same time, unless tested and found to be tried and true it's just somebody's opinion. Palmistry books are not held to a standard of accuracy as the editor and publisher (unless self published) isn't looking/testing for accuracy. Some palmistry books could be classified as pure fiction.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:53 pm

Patti wrote:...
There aren't many feminine and inner idioms, if any, related to the thumb.

under someone's thumb - controlling - active
thumbs up - active
thumbs down - active
thumb your nose - active
thumb a ride - sticking the thumb out into the public to get attention for action i.e. a ride
thumbing through a book - active
stick out like a sore thumb - active
rule of thumb - controlling - active
a green thumb - active
twiddling thumbs - active - outer show of inner boredom

In most of these hand positions above, the rest of the fingers are curled into the palm and only the thumb is sticking out and exposed to the public.

What do you mean with feminine and inner idioms?
Do you have one for the pinky finger?


(In general, any idiom can be described as an example of 'folklore'... because the thumb-up sign can be described your and my culture as 'possitve', but you better not use it on Sicilia, Italy, because there it is considered as an obscene gesture!)

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Post  Patti on Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:00 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:...
There aren't many feminine and inner idioms, if any, related to the thumb.

under someone's thumb - controlling - active
thumbs up - active
thumbs down - active
thumb your nose - active
thumb a ride - sticking the thumb out into the public to get attention for action i.e. a ride
thumbing through a book - active
stick out like a sore thumb - active
rule of thumb - controlling - active
a green thumb - active
twiddling thumbs - active - outer show of inner boredom

In most of these hand positions above, the rest of the fingers are curled into the palm and only the thumb is sticking out and exposed to the public.

What do you mean with feminine and inner idioms?
Do you have one for the pinky finger?


(In general, any idiom can be described as an example of 'folklore'... because the thumb-up sign can be described your and my culture as 'possitve', but you better not use it on Sicilia, Italy, because there it is considered as an obscene gesture!)

Yes and what body part is being gestured? Male?

<edit> I think Spier writes about the extended little finger.
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Post  Patti on Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:11 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn... while reading Chirstopher's first paragraph I have a rather simple question for you to answer:

Christopher describes the four 'different states of matter': solid, liquid, gas, and plasma. Can you please tell me how Christopher connected them with the four elements: earth, water, fire and air?

(I'll give you a hint in advance why I ask this question... my attention got focussed on the 'order' that he presented the four 'different states of matter'!)

Thanks!

I think it's obvious.
earth - solid
water - liquid
air - gas
plasma - fire

Just to make it CRYSTAL CLEAR........ when I said
"I'm glad it's all crystal clear to you Martijn. That means we don't have to discuss it any further. cheers "
that means I'm done with this discussion. I have no motivation to reply to it when almost everything I say, quote, or try to explain is misunderstood, dismissed, rubbished etc. If I am as mistaken, confused and lacking in understanding as you say Martijn, I have no idea why you keep asking me questions.

Thanks Lynn!


Okay, I understand your feelings.

As a final statement I will specify my problem with Christopher's guidelines regarding the use of key-words in a manner that result in the following problem:

In his writings (p.74) Christopher used the following concept:
earth + fire = expressive vs water + air = ...??? confused


thinking Lynn, I think the word 'repressive' is most accurate oposite polarity for the words 'expressive' (since 'receptive' is already in use against 'creative' according your notes)... and because 'repressive' itself appears to be a typical earth quality, I think Christopher's association does not make sense at all!


Anyway Lynn, I guess there is not much choice left for me then to accept your decision that you're done with this discussion.


Thanks!

I would choose the word 'emotive' rather than an opposite word like repressive.
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