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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:33 am

Patti wrote:And remember Birla is already clear in describing the thumb side Mars as physical and the little finger side of Mars as mental.

Physical is not directed outside Patti, remember... earth is a 'Yin' quality!

'Mars negative' represents a force that represents a storage of power/energy inside the body - it's an earth related quality... that can be channeled with the assistance of other parts of the hand to the outer world.

But the mount itself has no ability to express itself... because it is not directly connected to a finger. It's kind of a defensive quality.

While the mental power of 'mars positive' is more directed outside in the sense that it helps the ability to put resistance in terms of mental strength to the world!


So basically, what I am saying is... in Vedic Palmistry you should always try to see things in the perspective of how Ida (Yin) and Pingala (Yang) are defined for the hand.

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Post  Patti on Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:35 am

Physical is tangible. Mental is not tangible. Physical is outside. It doesn't have to be 'directed' anywhere.
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Post  Patti on Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:37 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:


So basically, what I am saying is... in Vedic Palmistry you should always try to see things in the perspective of how Ida (Yin) and Pingala (Yang) are defined for the hand. [/color]

I agree! And people who assign such things should be consistent and know what they are talking about.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:39 am

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:To illustrate (again) this contradiction:

See page 121 "Love in the Palm of Your Hand"

"Extending from Venus, the mount of love, the thumb shows your ability to give conscious expression to your love. It also shows the expression of your individuality. In order to love others, you must first know and love yourself."

I think this paragraph of his is very important to understanding his philosophy behind the thumb, including the lower thenar area, or Venus mount.

This statement shows both the inner self of a person being expressed as individuality. Self awareness and self understanding is important, but this self understanding comes from the moon area which processes the feelings, emotions and senses.

The keywords here involve "ability to give conscious expression" to your love. Conscious expression is an active outward act.

Birla uses inner for describing from within the physical body. Here the thumb represents the outer expression of the inner self with love. Love that is both for self and for others. As you can only love someone else as much as you can love yourself. The giving of love is a warm thing - not cold. There is your contradiction.

No Patti, you probably missed the title above your quote saying: 'the thumb, affirmation of individuality'


Birla is describing there an inner process related to becomming conscious of one's love inside; he e.g. talks about "... you must first know and love yourself".

So, he is not using the word 'expression' her to refer to a process of the expression of love to an other person. Birla talks about a process before that: the discovery of the ability to 'love' inside the person.

He only uses the words to describe an inner dynamic between the thumb and the mount of venus - which is actually part of the thumb!

So, there is no inconsistency inside his description regarding the inner or outer world because he describes inner-dynamics regarding the 'affirmation of individuality' - again, see the title above your quote!

You've misunderstood him again! He continues with describing a long and short thumb. He describes a long thumb "reveals your independent, dynamic, and outgoing nature. You have a great wish to achieve success and a desire to express your individuality."

Very Happy ... nature... wish ... desire ... = inner (passive) activity!

(You're taking words & descriptions out of the context... while the context actually explains how you should understand the guidelines properly - in terms of Ida & Pingala because in that perspective the descriptions always origin)

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Post  Patti on Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:41 am

By the way, you mentioned outer as ulnar side relating to one's environment according to Birla. But you are mistaken there too. He uses one of the moons nodes (in astrology) Rahu to describe the present environment.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:53 am

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:


So basically, what I am saying is... in Vedic Palmistry you should always try to see things in the perspective of how Ida (Yin) and Pingala (Yang) are defined for the hand. [/color]

[color=darkred]I agree! And people who assign such things should be consistent and know what they are talking about.

I have described how you are taking things out of philosophic context... now it's up to you to correct this 'narrow-minded' approach that you have used to find inconsistencies.


Patti, so far you haven't managed to present at least one clear example of an inconsistency... you're only jumping from page to page asking: and this one? and how about this one?

And meanwhile it looks to me that you are only reading Birla's work with the intend to find an inconsistency regarding the Ida vs Pingala approach.... in order to find them only in your own associations regarding the individual words that you read.


Very Happy

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:58 am

Patti wrote:By the way, you mentioned outer as ulnar side relating to one's environment according to Birla. But you are mistaken there too. He uses one of the moons nodes (in astrology) Rahu to describe the present environment.

Patti... haven't you noticed what the words in my earlier picture point out?

Ida = inner world = yin
Pingala = outer world = yang

With your association above you are questioning this basic principle again... and this doesn't make sense.

You should try to read things in a holistic manner... and keep the Ida & Pingala principle always in mind.


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 Yin-ya10

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Post  Patti on Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:08 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:

You should try to read things in a holistic manner... and keep the Ida & Pingala principle always in mind.
[/color]

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(I think someone kidnapped Martijn and is posting for him) scratch
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Post  Patti on Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:37 am

Martijn you have been referring to older works of Christopher's when there is more recent information. Since he said I could quote anything I deem helpful, I'll add this post from 2000.

msn-christopher wrote on Apr 14, '00
Have to say I agree with you all on this... for practical purposes the quadrants assessment is too dodgy to be reliable.

Quadrant assessment is something I worked really hard on for many years. Like many other people, it really fascinated me -and yet I always found it problematic because it was so difficult to get it to be accurate. When I started cheirology, quadrants were just about the ONLY thing that was taught in an F Dip course - nobody knew anything about fingerprints back then, for example. I also was a 'victim' of the super-imposition of a 'wrong' quadrant order - Dylan Warren Davis read my hands in 1983 and told me I was EWAF!! (but then, it was said, he gave everybody earth first...). It was only after about seven years that I had developed a way of doing quadrant assessment that I felt was consistent and more or less reliable - the way most of you take for granted is THE way of drawing up quadrants (looking for the 'dimple', where the 'edges' of the palm are at the base of the thumb - none of these would be the 'official' way of drawing quadrants. And then Johnny innovated the acetate squares, to make size evaluation a little easier. After seven years of trying t o get something that I thought could be reliably applied, of course then one discovered that most 'quadrant orders' were more or less the same size - in which case the assessment was irrelevant. However, it was a vast improvement on what went before - which was really nothing more than drawing the boundaries wrong, getting the mid line wrong and then just 'guessing' which was the largest.... During the course of my time in CS, I tried to get the quadrants back into some perspective - as only a part of what the hand has to say, rather than the WHOLE story being read from the quadrant elements [read Mr D's analysis of Chairman Mao's hands to see how badly wrong you can go when you emphasise the quadrants at the expense of all else...]

In practice, because I found that most people's quadrant orders were all much the same size, I used this less and less as years went by and pretty much stopped using it in readings after about 1995. I still drew them on the hand (old habit...) but talked about them less and put much less emphasis on them than., for instance, the dg's - unless there were marked differences in sizes which would have been obvious to the naked eye, such as in cases of leaning fingers. Bascially, anything which does not provide a useful measure of difference is not much use in the practice of reading hands. In latter years, fingerprints came more and more to the fore in my mind - so I am not sure what you are referring to about 'imposing quadrant orders' in Oxford, Hidde! However, I know what you mean about the effects of that, having experienced it myself back in 1983... and one has to say that that is not a useful service at all.

As to the elements, I think these are important and I agree with Lynn and Hidde that they provide a useful framework for thinking within. However, they are 'magical' as opposed to 'scientific' - and perhaps that is where the problem of quadranting comes in, mixing two different and irreconcilable paradigms. However, as I have said before, I am not happy about the fifth element (let alone the Tibetan sixth! -which, incidentally is also present in Shingon Buddhist thinking as well)... but this leaves me with a problem with applying the elements to the hand, given that there are five digits!! Another thread...

The language of the elements is indeed useful - and I agree that if teaching handreading, some beginners go away with more about the elements than they do about hands. But their application into the quadrants is, at the very least, a contentious and problematic affair with too much room for error. As has been said, personality characteristics etc which may be found in the quadrants are usually seen elsewhere in the hand as well. So do we really need them?


msn-christopher wrote on Apr 30, '00
The dividing of the hand into zones etc seems to have been by most handreaders over the years, in one way or another. The vertical division of the palm is, indeed useful - perhaps more useful than the horizontal line. Actually, of course, Gettings divides the hand in this simple way (though his horizontal line is higher in the hand) and does not then 'go off on one' developing a whole theory about the magical significance of dividing a hand into four sections. He seems to have been the originator of the terminology associated with each of the areas - active/passive, conscious/unconscious and I think these terms are still applicable. the vertical line, like the Saturn line, represents the inner/outer divide and I see no reason to modify this general approach. 'Quadranting' the hand seems to be alright - it is quadrant assessment and interpretation that was the problem. Recognise the usefulness of basic ideas and then don't make too much of them.

msn-christopher wrote on Jan 28, '02
The west always seems to want more Yin - but only in a Yang way......

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:02 pm


Patti, I have explained how Christopher has left the 'basic idea' of Yin & Yang... by suggesting that earth is 'more outward directed' than air (and fire is more entangible than water). This concerns one of Chirstopher's key-principles!


Sorry, your reference to the work of Birla only relate to Birla's use of language... not his key-priniples. And meanwhile you have not specific your percpeptions of Birla's work in terms of any specific key-words/key-principles. And as a consequence you also never refered to Ida & Pingala!

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Post  Sucom on Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:50 pm

Patti wrote:Physical is tangible. Mental is not tangible. Physical is outside. It doesn't have to be 'directed' anywhere.

I can't see this discussion ever reaching a satisfactory conclusion because there is a problem of individual perception and understanding throughout the entire discussion, relating to not only the people involved in the discussion but also between the individual perception of authors words, not to mention the perception of the authors themselves!

Take for example, your quote above, Patti. You said, physical is tangible, mental is not tangible and physical is outside. Supposing mental is tangible? What then? It is my own understanding that thoughts are actual things - just because the physical eye cannot see them doesn't mean they don't exist. The physical eye sees only what it is programmed to see, nothing more, nothing less. This is my perception, of course. I would even question that physical is outside. Are you sure it's outside? The outside could simply be a projection of the inside. No-one really knows for sure just yet, so any discussion including these could be less than satisfactory for many.

So you could see that I would also have problems arguing points about positive, negative, inner and outer, because they don't really 'mean' anything at all. It all comes down to one's own understanding of what is the meaning of positive, negative, inner and outer. Science hasn't really discovered this yet, so you could be discussing this for a very long time,...... years maybe.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:13 pm

Sucom wrote:
Patti wrote:Physical is tangible. Mental is not tangible. Physical is outside. It doesn't have to be 'directed' anywhere.

I can't see this discussion ever reaching a satisfactory conclusion because there is a problem of individual perception and understanding throughout the entire discussion, relating to not only the people involved in the discussion but also between the individual perception of authors words, not to mention the perception of the authors themselves!

Take for example, your quote above, Patti. You said, physical is tangible, mental is not tangible and physical is outside. Supposing mental is tangible? What then? It is my own understanding that thoughts are actual things - just because the physical eye cannot see them doesn't mean they don't exist. The physical eye sees only what it is programmed to see, nothing more, nothing less. This is my perception, of course. I would even question that physical is outside. Are you sure it's outside? The outside could simply be a projection of the inside. No-one really knows for sure just yet, so any discussion including these could be less than satisfactory for many.

So you could see that I would also have problems arguing points about positive, negative, inner and outer, because they don't really 'mean' anything at all. It all comes down to one's own understanding of what is the meaning of positive, negative, inner and outer. Science hasn't really discovered this yet, so you could be discussing this for a very long time,...... years maybe.

Sue, I am for more optimistic that you are in this matter... because I could describe this as an issue that requires proper thinking in terms of avoiding the use of associations that disrespect of the philosophic/linguistic fundamentals!


For example, let's look at the work 'tangible' - which is basically described to relate being able to touch: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tangible

Now, obviously Patti is write in saying that physical is tangible through touch, and mental is not tangible through touch.

So, I think your association regarding mental with 'tangible'... is kind of a violation of the basic principle associated with the word 'tangible' because one can not literally touch the mental world.


PS. I hope this example explains why I am only interested to discuss the principles in the hand reading books based on a fundamental approach regarding the meaning of the words (as described by credible authorities & sources). Does this make sense for you?

(By the regarding Patti's 2nd sentence... that is where the problem begins: because in the elemental approach 'earth' is associated with Yin - and Yin is in the elemental approach associated with the 'private world' or 'inner world'.. and thus Patti's (subjective) association for linking physical with 'outer world' is wat "out of touch" with the elemental philosophy. And thus I could say here that here 2nd sentencie is 'not-entangible' with the elemental philosophy. I hope this example illustrates my fundamental point)


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Post  Sucom on Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:20 pm

[quote]PS. I hope this example explains why I am only interested to discuss the principles in the hand reading books based on a fundamental approach regarding the meaning of the words (as described by credible authorities & sources). Does this make sense for you?[/quote]

Ah yes, I fullly understand what you are saying here. Your message is very clear indeed. Best to leave you to it then. I'm out.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:31 pm


Sue, I think the following might open some new perspectives in your rather philosophical mind:

Because yesterday I arrived at a point where I suddenly (for the first time!) recognized a 2nd similarity between the principles used in Vedic Palmistry & Elemental Chirology. This concerns the fact that the basic principles used in Vedic philosophy (Ida & Pingala) represent clear parallel with the basic principles used in Elemental Chirology (Yin & Yang).

For, the picture below shows how the Taoistic 'Yin' represent a similar principle compared to the Vedic 'Ida' (both are associated with feminine attributes)... and the Taoistic 'Yang' represents a similar principle compared to the Vedic 'Yang' (both are associated with masculine attributes)!

(EDIT: Sue, more info regarding the principle-similarities between the 2 philosophies is presented at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadi_(yoga)#Ida.2C_Pingala_and_Sushumna )

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 Prana_men


And then it becomes much easier to recognize how in both philosophies the thumb side of the hand gets associated with the 'inner world' (picture is taken from a Dutch version of one of Birla's books):

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 Yin-ya11


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:30 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:34 pm

[quote="Sucom"]
PS. I hope this example explains why I am only interested to discuss the principles in the hand reading books based on a fundamental approach regarding the meaning of the words (as described by credible authorities & sources). Does this make sense for you?[/quote]

Ah yes, I fullly understand what you are saying here. Your message is very clear indeed. Best to leave you to it then. I'm out.

PS. Sue, I hope you understood that I associate the words 'credible authorities & sources' with INDEPENDENT sources like for examples Wikipedia.

(I was not using those words to suggest that some hand reading authors might be perceived as more credible than others!)

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Post  Patti on Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:34 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti, I have explained how Christopher has left the 'basic idea' of Yin & Yang... by suggesting that earth is 'more outward directed' than air (and fire is more entangible than water). This concerns one of Chirstopher's key-principles!


Sorry, your reference to the work of Birla only relate to Birla's use of language... not his key-priniples. And meanwhile you have not specific your percpeptions of Birla's work in terms of any specific key-words/key-principles. And as a consequence you also never refered to Ida & Pingala!

My main experience is with the psychological aspects of reading people and working with them in their everyday world with hopes to shed light on their path and insight into themselves. We are all of the spirit and spirituality is a personal and subjective experience. We are all at different levels of understanding.

Reading hands can be a powerful and enlightening experience and one that fits into many spiritual concepts. Hand analysts from all backgrounds are able to find a common middle ground when reading hands as we are all reading the human hand.

There are many schools of thought in hand reading and there are even many, many more schools of thought when it comes to spirituality. Most having a mix of agreement and disagreement among themselves.

This is the reason I have found the best approach to studying the hands is by combining biological, scientific and psychological facts.

Even then the person having their hands read is listening, understanding and comprehending through their own filter and the reader is doing the same in sharing how they have taken in and comprehended their own knowledge. Keywords are subjective to the individual seeing/hearing them.

On a cellular level all is energy in our hands. Continuous electrical impulses both positive and negative course through our nervous system sending signals simultaneously and instantly via this matrix to and from the heart, stomach, and the brain.

We can divide our existence into categories and label them elements, we can further divide these elements to their polarities of yin and yang. We can watch as positive particles switch to negative and back to positive again. Everything we are aware of is made of energy. This energy would be better illustrated in an animated scalar field superimposed on a palm rather than the last century, and older, methods of using mythological gods and subjective viewpoints to describe behavior.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 Scalar_field

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalar_field
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Post  Patti on Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:41 pm

Sucom wrote:
Patti wrote:Physical is tangible. Mental is not tangible. Physical is outside. It doesn't have to be 'directed' anywhere.

I can't see this discussion ever reaching a satisfactory conclusion because there is a problem of individual perception and understanding throughout the entire discussion, relating to not only the people involved in the discussion but also between the individual perception of authors words, not to mention the perception of the authors themselves!

Take for example, your quote above, Patti. You said, physical is tangible, mental is not tangible and physical is outside. Supposing mental is tangible? What then? It is my own understanding that thoughts are actual things - just because the physical eye cannot see them doesn't mean they don't exist. The physical eye sees only what it is programmed to see, nothing more, nothing less. This is my perception, of course. I would even question that physical is outside. Are you sure it's outside? The outside could simply be a projection of the inside. No-one really knows for sure just yet, so any discussion including these could be less than satisfactory for many.

So you could see that I would also have problems arguing points about positive, negative, inner and outer, because they don't really 'mean' anything at all. It all comes down to one's own understanding of what is the meaning of positive, negative, inner and outer. Science hasn't really discovered this yet, so you could be discussing this for a very long time,...... years maybe.

Hi Sue,
I enjoy very much getting in touch with my thoughts. flower
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Post  RishiRahul on Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:44 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
RishiRahul wrote:This discussion regarding the thumb as 'inner' or 'outer' has been well replied in the first page of the thread:
Re: The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post Patti on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:33 pm
In reality the entire hand is an outer expression of the inner self. It's basic function is to interact with the environment. This interaction is a two way street. In and out. Outward expression of the inner self can be described in all parts of the hands. Inner awareness of the outer environment is also actively found in all parts of the hands. How we relay this inner and outer expression/response is what we interpret by dividing the hand into a variety of realms.

...

Hi Rishi,

Patti's (holistic) "two way street" interaction - between inner self and outer expression - sounds indeed quite interesting.

However, during this discussion it became apparent that it is actually quite hard to find key-words in the hand reading literature that confirm this approach - especially regarding the connection for the pinky finger with the inner world, and the thumb with outer world.

For, in almost every hand reading system the two upper phalanges of the thumb are associated with in respective: 'will/determination' and 'thought/reason'... which are both known as cognitive qualities (that relate to the inner world). And the pinky gets usually associated with key-words such as: communication, relationships & intimacy.


Thus... while Patti's approach may sound interesting at first sight... a more detailed analysis of the traditional concepts used in the field of hand reading for the individual parts of the hand reveals (so far) that the pinky usually (if not always) tends to get associated with key-words that relate to the outer world! And the reverse is true regarding the thumb, which gets associated with key-words that relate to the inner world (see my two examples for the pinky & the thumb).

Now, I have asked Patti to present key-words (from the hand reading literature) that disprove my observation... but so far it appears that she was only able to answer this with associative thoughts & examples.

(E.g. her references earlier today to the hand of the pope & and some story about a man who is in a vegative state of being... anyway, both examples have no direct connection with the hand reading books at all so I don't recognize those to become helpful - because such could at best be described as examples based on rather loose associations).


And thus... so far it appears to me that the 'beauty' of her rather general (holistic) theory appears to lose it's shine as soon as one starts looking for specificity!

(Afterall, her holistic approach has not been substantiated with a detailed theory regarding individual parts of the hand... not in this discussion, and also not on her website)

In my opinion... so far this holistic approach does not appear to stand the test of reality regarding the nature of things (associated with the key-words) that have been written in the many hand reading books published around the world.

(Though of course... make no mistake: I am very aware that quite some authors have presented descriptions suggestion the opposite of my observation regarding inner & outer world - however, in most of those cases the 'key-words' with the individual parts of the hand suggest the opposite. A typical example of the fact that there are quite a lot of contradictions seen in the various hand reading books presented in the world... and then it requires a proper analysis to find out which theories are most likely - because even some very popular concepts can turn out to be the result of 'copy and past work' from earlier published books, etc.)

But Rishi, feel to present evidence (preferably quotes from hand reading books) that could potentially disproof this analysis of mine!


PS. I will later start working on presenting a new picture featured with the most common key-words used for all fingers & palmar zones. After working out the details... time will tell whether that picture will still include a reference to the 'inner world' and 'outer world'.

NOTICE: Despite my observations so far, I will have to study the other parts of the hand (beyond the pinky & the thumb) more precisely before I will be able to present my third (final) picture... which will include more keywords than the first 2 pictures that I have presdented so far (the perspective presented in the 2nd picture, see below, is still very close to my latest perceptions resulting from this discussion so far).


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 Thumb-11

Martjin,

Palmistry is a craft, & does not follow the 'keyword' rigidity.
If ione wants to equate palmistry with the rigidity of keywords; Palmistry is 'smashed'!

The 'inner' & 'outer' topics will go on:=
The good side would be to increase the number of posts.
The adverse side is to tie other's thinking in knots & confuse the self & others.... particularly learners.

This thread does not help the use of this in palmistry as sometimes the outer can be extended (thanks to imagination) to the inner & vice versa.... & the result would be .. trying to prove one's point.

How does this thread benefit palmists? Or does it confuse their learning?
Of course, it increases posts.

There is no final picture in the study ofPalmistry or such crafts. Is there? (you said above that you are going to present a final picture)
...unless one thinks that he has achieved it Finally......

Rishi

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Post  Patti on Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:15 pm

RishiRahul wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
RishiRahul wrote:This discussion regarding the thumb as 'inner' or 'outer' has been well replied in the first page of the thread:
Re: The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post Patti on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:33 pm
In reality the entire hand is an outer expression of the inner self. It's basic function is to interact with the environment. This interaction is a two way street. In and out. Outward expression of the inner self can be described in all parts of the hands. Inner awareness of the outer environment is also actively found in all parts of the hands. How we relay this inner and outer expression/response is what we interpret by dividing the hand into a variety of realms.

...

Hi Rishi,

Patti's (holistic) "two way street" interaction - between inner self and outer expression - sounds indeed quite interesting.

However, during this discussion it became apparent that it is actually quite hard to find key-words in the hand reading literature that confirm this approach - especially regarding the connection for the pinky finger with the inner world, and the thumb with outer world.

For, in almost every hand reading system the two upper phalanges of the thumb are associated with in respective: 'will/determination' and 'thought/reason'... which are both known as cognitive qualities (that relate to the inner world). And the pinky gets usually associated with key-words such as: communication, relationships & intimacy.


Thus... while Patti's approach may sound interesting at first sight... a more detailed analysis of the traditional concepts used in the field of hand reading for the individual parts of the hand reveals (so far) that the pinky usually (if not always) tends to get associated with key-words that relate to the outer world! And the reverse is true regarding the thumb, which gets associated with key-words that relate to the inner world (see my two examples for the pinky & the thumb).

Now, I have asked Patti to present key-words (from the hand reading literature) that disprove my observation... but so far it appears that she was only able to answer this with associative thoughts & examples.

(E.g. her references earlier today to the hand of the pope & and some story about a man who is in a vegative state of being... anyway, both examples have no direct connection with the hand reading books at all so I don't recognize those to become helpful - because such could at best be described as examples based on rather loose associations).


And thus... so far it appears to me that the 'beauty' of her rather general (holistic) theory appears to lose it's shine as soon as one starts looking for specificity!

(Afterall, her holistic approach has not been substantiated with a detailed theory regarding individual parts of the hand... not in this discussion, and also not on her website)

In my opinion... so far this holistic approach does not appear to stand the test of reality regarding the nature of things (associated with the key-words) that have been written in the many hand reading books published around the world.

(Though of course... make no mistake: I am very aware that quite some authors have presented descriptions suggestion the opposite of my observation regarding inner & outer world - however, in most of those cases the 'key-words' with the individual parts of the hand suggest the opposite. A typical example of the fact that there are quite a lot of contradictions seen in the various hand reading books presented in the world... and then it requires a proper analysis to find out which theories are most likely - because even some very popular concepts can turn out to be the result of 'copy and past work' from earlier published books, etc.)

But Rishi, feel to present evidence (preferably quotes from hand reading books) that could potentially disproof this analysis of mine!


PS. I will later start working on presenting a new picture featured with the most common key-words used for all fingers & palmar zones. After working out the details... time will tell whether that picture will still include a reference to the 'inner world' and 'outer world'.

NOTICE: Despite my observations so far, I will have to study the other parts of the hand (beyond the pinky & the thumb) more precisely before I will be able to present my third (final) picture... which will include more keywords than the first 2 pictures that I have presdented so far (the perspective presented in the 2nd picture, see below, is still very close to my latest perceptions resulting from this discussion so far).


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 Thumb-11

Martjin,

Palmistry is a craft, & does not follow the 'keyword' rigidity.
If ione wants to equate palmistry with the rigidity of keywords; Palmistry is 'smashed'!

The 'inner' & 'outer' topics will go on:=
The good side would be to increase the number of posts.
The adverse side is to tie other's thinking in knots & confuse the self & others.... particularly learners.

This thread does not help the use of this in palmistry as sometimes the outer can be extended (thanks to imagination) to the inner & vice versa.... & the result would be .. trying to prove one's point.

How does this thread benefit palmists? Or does it confuse their learning?
Of course, it increases posts.

There is no final picture in the study ofPalmistry or such crafts. Is there? (you said above that you are going to present a final picture)
...unless one thinks that he has achieved it Finally......

Rishi

Thanks! Thumb up

Very good points! Martijn's post sat there for two days and no one, not even Lynn would touch it. The post of mine you quote is my first post. You have made some good observations. Martijn is now contradicting himself. Holistic. And there are 8000 plus hits. Christopher Jones got involved, Sue Compton was pulled in... and my crystal ball cyclops reveals many familiar faces, names lurking in dark corners. Twisted Evil





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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:04 pm

RishiRahul wrote:
Martjin,

Palmistry is a craft, & does not follow the 'keyword' rigidity.
If ione wants to equate palmistry with the rigidity of keywords; Palmistry is 'smashed'!

The 'inner' & 'outer' topics will go on:=
The good side would be to increase the number of posts.
The adverse side is to tie other's thinking in knots & confuse the self & others.... particularly learners.

This thread does not help the use of this in palmistry as sometimes the outer can be extended (thanks to imagination) to the inner & vice versa.... & the result would be .. trying to prove one's point.

How does this thread benefit palmists? Or does it confuse their learning?
Of course, it increases posts.

There is no final picture in the study ofPalmistry or such crafts. Is there? (you said above that you are going to present a final picture)
...unless one thinks that he has achieved it Finally......

Rishi
Hi Rishi,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts again. Thumbs up!

I think we all have our own perceptions regarding the 'craft' (activity) of palmistry is about. However, this topic does not relate to practicing palmistry as a 'craft'. This topic is more about identifying the most common used principles in the hand reading literature (via a comparison of the key-words & principles used by various authors and various hand reading systems).

Now, if people get confused anywhere regarding the sharing of ideas inside this topic... I am happy to help them out.

Did you get confused anyhow regarding the content shared in this topic Rishi?

(If not... thinking then you would get me wondering why you bring up the point anyway???)


Sorry Rishi, I have a completely different perception about how this thread has developed; because your words suggest that you perceive it going nowhere.

Regarding your question about the final picture that I mentioned earlier... are you aware that I already have given 2 pre-views of the final picture? At the bottom of this post you can find a brand-new updated pre-view!

I hope the new picture (see below) is this helpful to understand what I am heading for?

TIP: Try to understand how the key-words presented in the picture relate to common key-words and principles used by various hand reading authors. But next to those key-words... there is a deeper perspective that has risen from this discussion: the philosphical point of view! As a matter of fact, it was only about 14 hours ago that I discovered the parallel regarding the basic principles used in Elemental Chirology (Yin & Yang) and the basic principles used in Vedic Palmistry (Ida & Pingala). Rishi, just in case you are interested to see for more details regarding the deeper philosophic perspective... you can take a look at the following post that I presented earlier today: http://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t2419p585-the-thumb-represents-the-inner-essence-of-man#26388 )


PS. scratch Rishi, it is slightly worrisome for me to see you refer to the number of posts inside this discussion... but I perceive that it does reflect the number of ideas & view that have been discusses & presented. Anyway, I would understand if you got lost in overseeing the developments... but I can assure you that the developments have continued!! Very Happy


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 Thumb-39


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:16 am; edited 3 times in total

___________________________________________
sunny

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Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:38 pm

Patti wrote:
Thanks! Thumb up

Very good points! Martijn's post sat there for two days and no one, not even Lynn would touch it. The post of mine you quote is my first post. You have made some good observations. Martijn is now contradicting himself. Holistic. And there are 8000 plus hits. Christopher Jones got involved, Sue Compton was pulled in... and my crystal ball cyclops reveals many familiar faces, names lurking in dark corners. Twisted Evil


Patti, I have only used the word 'holistic' in my responses to your attempts to (dis)qualify the work of Birla. Because Vedic Palmistry is a holistic method, and this is for example illustrated by a description of David Frawley who describes in his preface of Birla's 'Destiny in the Palm of Your Hand' (page x) Birla's work as follows:

"He [Birla] removes palmistry from the realm of mere fortune-telling, and places it solidly into the field of holistic healing, where it can used for enhancing life at all levels."


By the way Patti, I have nowhere suggested that my pictures with key-words represent a 'holistic' approach!

Your perception about how I used the word 'holistic' is appearently completely subjective, because my association regarding Birla's work (I have asked you to try to understand Birla's writings in a holistic manner via the concepts of Ida & Pingala) is actually supported by the words of David Frawley (see the quote taken above)..

It's a pitty that appearently you present yourself as a 'holistich' hand reader... but while discussing Birla's work you were apparently are not able to recognize the holistic nature of Birla's work!

And it appears that you blame me for using the word 'holistic' in my sincere attempt to explain how you got stuck in your own associations regarding individual words chosen by Birla. You didn't refer to Birla's key-words or principles, 'your contradictions' only refered to words used in Birla's style (word choice) of expressing his ideas.

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:52 pm


A significant moderation regarding the hypothenar (mount of moon) has been processed inside the chart:

I have replaced the key-word 'sensations' for the key-word 'imagination' (= one of the most common key-words associated with the hypothenar).

(This implicates that I have also deleted Christopher Jones' name from the chart - who's name had been listed only for the key-word 'sensations')

Now there are still 15 authors (of which 11 are TOP 100 authors!) featured in the chart; and for 9 of these authors I have already listed which of the 39 key-words (or likewise synonyms) are featured in their work.


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 Thumb-42


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:03 pm; edited 3 times in total

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  RishiRahul on Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:13 pm

Patti wrote:
RishiRahul wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
RishiRahul wrote:This discussion regarding the thumb as 'inner' or 'outer' has been well replied in the first page of the thread:
Re: The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post Patti on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:33 pm
In reality the entire hand is an outer expression of the inner self. It's basic function is to interact with the environment. This interaction is a two way street. In and out. Outward expression of the inner self can be described in all parts of the hands. Inner awareness of the outer environment is also actively found in all parts of the hands. How we relay this inner and outer expression/response is what we interpret by dividing the hand into a variety of realms.

...

Hi Rishi,

Patti's (holistic) "two way street" interaction - between inner self and outer expression - sounds indeed quite interesting.

However, during this discussion it became apparent that it is actually quite hard to find key-words in the hand reading literature that confirm this approach - especially regarding the connection for the pinky finger with the inner world, and the thumb with outer world.

For, in almost every hand reading system the two upper phalanges of the thumb are associated with in respective: 'will/determination' and 'thought/reason'... which are both known as cognitive qualities (that relate to the inner world). And the pinky gets usually associated with key-words such as: communication, relationships & intimacy.


Thus... while Patti's approach may sound interesting at first sight... a more detailed analysis of the traditional concepts used in the field of hand reading for the individual parts of the hand reveals (so far) that the pinky usually (if not always) tends to get associated with key-words that relate to the outer world! And the reverse is true regarding the thumb, which gets associated with key-words that relate to the inner world (see my two examples for the pinky & the thumb).

Now, I have asked Patti to present key-words (from the hand reading literature) that disprove my observation... but so far it appears that she was only able to answer this with associative thoughts & examples.

(E.g. her references earlier today to the hand of the pope & and some story about a man who is in a vegative state of being... anyway, both examples have no direct connection with the hand reading books at all so I don't recognize those to become helpful - because such could at best be described as examples based on rather loose associations).


And thus... so far it appears to me that the 'beauty' of her rather general (holistic) theory appears to lose it's shine as soon as one starts looking for specificity!

(Afterall, her holistic approach has not been substantiated with a detailed theory regarding individual parts of the hand... not in this discussion, and also not on her website)

In my opinion... so far this holistic approach does not appear to stand the test of reality regarding the nature of things (associated with the key-words) that have been written in the many hand reading books published around the world.

(Though of course... make no mistake: I am very aware that quite some authors have presented descriptions suggestion the opposite of my observation regarding inner & outer world - however, in most of those cases the 'key-words' with the individual parts of the hand suggest the opposite. A typical example of the fact that there are quite a lot of contradictions seen in the various hand reading books presented in the world... and then it requires a proper analysis to find out which theories are most likely - because even some very popular concepts can turn out to be the result of 'copy and past work' from earlier published books, etc.)

But Rishi, feel to present evidence (preferably quotes from hand reading books) that could potentially disproof this analysis of mine!


PS. I will later start working on presenting a new picture featured with the most common key-words used for all fingers & palmar zones. After working out the details... time will tell whether that picture will still include a reference to the 'inner world' and 'outer world'.

NOTICE: Despite my observations so far, I will have to study the other parts of the hand (beyond the pinky & the thumb) more precisely before I will be able to present my third (final) picture... which will include more keywords than the first 2 pictures that I have presdented so far (the perspective presented in the 2nd picture, see below, is still very close to my latest perceptions resulting from this discussion so far).


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 Thumb-11

Martjin,

Palmistry is a craft, & does not follow the 'keyword' rigidity.
If ione wants to equate palmistry with the rigidity of keywords; Palmistry is 'smashed'!

The 'inner' & 'outer' topics will go on:=
The good side would be to increase the number of posts.
The adverse side is to tie other's thinking in knots & confuse the self & others.... particularly learners.

This thread does not help the use of this in palmistry as sometimes the outer can be extended (thanks to imagination) to the inner & vice versa.... & the result would be .. trying to prove one's point.

How does this thread benefit palmists? Or does it confuse their learning?
Of course, it increases posts.

There is no final picture in the study ofPalmistry or such crafts. Is there? (you said above that you are going to present a final picture)
...unless one thinks that he has achieved it Finally......

Rishi

Thanks! Thumb up

Very good points! Martijn's post sat there for two days and no one, not even Lynn would touch it. The post of mine you quote is my first post. You have made some good observations. Martijn is now contradicting himself. Holistic. And there are 8000 plus hits. Christopher Jones got involved, Sue Compton was pulled in... and my crystal ball cyclops reveals many familiar faces, names lurking in dark corners. Twisted Evil



Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:18 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Quote repaired)

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Post  RishiRahul on Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:16 pm

Hey Patti,

Thanks for appreciating!

In forums no one/very few watches whose posts stays quiet for how long.......... Sadly.
Public memories are not patient enough for that. The last posts hit the game better!

Most posters who are busy in their normal mundane life get less time to insist themselves on spending too much time on a thread...... Thanks to free time.

When palmistry comes down to winning /losing as it's aim...it is political.

Anyone becoming political with such serious crafts spoils the subject......... Personal objectives are different like lobbying is different.
The world is getting more Political; so that's natural.

You are 11, with a good/strong moon...... Intuitive to very good proportions & least political about such serious crafts/ your Passion.

Of course, there are many silent intelligent posters watching this thread develop.

Cheers!

Rishi










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Post  Patti on Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:09 pm

RishiRahul wrote:Hey Patti,

Thanks for appreciating!

In forums no one/very few watches whose posts stays quiet for how long.......... Sadly.
Public memories are not patient enough for that. The last posts hit the game better!

Most posters who are busy in their normal mundane life get less time to insist themselves on spending too much time on a thread...... Thanks to free time.

When palmistry comes down to winning /losing as it's aim...it is political.

Anyone becoming political with such serious crafts spoils the subject......... Personal objectives are different like lobbying is different.
The world is getting more Political; so that's natural.

You are 11, with a good/strong moon...... Intuitive to very good proportions & least political about such serious crafts/ your Passion.

Of course, there are many silent intelligent posters watching this thread develop.

Cheers!

Rishi


Thanks!
This thread has pretty much come full circle with only one person's opinion and one person's agenda at play. The wind went out of my sails the other day for this topic. It
is interesting to see how meanings are applied to hands by taking keywords from various authors who are not in agreement with each other. Now I understand when reading palmistry books that are basically recopied from older works how misconceptions get passed on.
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