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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Sucom on Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:50 pm

Patti wrote:Physical is tangible. Mental is not tangible. Physical is outside. It doesn't have to be 'directed' anywhere.

I can't see this discussion ever reaching a satisfactory conclusion because there is a problem of individual perception and understanding throughout the entire discussion, relating to not only the people involved in the discussion but also between the individual perception of authors words, not to mention the perception of the authors themselves!

Take for example, your quote above, Patti. You said, physical is tangible, mental is not tangible and physical is outside. Supposing mental is tangible? What then? It is my own understanding that thoughts are actual things - just because the physical eye cannot see them doesn't mean they don't exist. The physical eye sees only what it is programmed to see, nothing more, nothing less. This is my perception, of course. I would even question that physical is outside. Are you sure it's outside? The outside could simply be a projection of the inside. No-one really knows for sure just yet, so any discussion including these could be less than satisfactory for many.

So you could see that I would also have problems arguing points about positive, negative, inner and outer, because they don't really 'mean' anything at all. It all comes down to one's own understanding of what is the meaning of positive, negative, inner and outer. Science hasn't really discovered this yet, so you could be discussing this for a very long time,...... years maybe.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:13 pm

Sucom wrote:
Patti wrote:Physical is tangible. Mental is not tangible. Physical is outside. It doesn't have to be 'directed' anywhere.

I can't see this discussion ever reaching a satisfactory conclusion because there is a problem of individual perception and understanding throughout the entire discussion, relating to not only the people involved in the discussion but also between the individual perception of authors words, not to mention the perception of the authors themselves!

Take for example, your quote above, Patti. You said, physical is tangible, mental is not tangible and physical is outside. Supposing mental is tangible? What then? It is my own understanding that thoughts are actual things - just because the physical eye cannot see them doesn't mean they don't exist. The physical eye sees only what it is programmed to see, nothing more, nothing less. This is my perception, of course. I would even question that physical is outside. Are you sure it's outside? The outside could simply be a projection of the inside. No-one really knows for sure just yet, so any discussion including these could be less than satisfactory for many.

So you could see that I would also have problems arguing points about positive, negative, inner and outer, because they don't really 'mean' anything at all. It all comes down to one's own understanding of what is the meaning of positive, negative, inner and outer. Science hasn't really discovered this yet, so you could be discussing this for a very long time,...... years maybe.

Sue, I am for more optimistic that you are in this matter... because I could describe this as an issue that requires proper thinking in terms of avoiding the use of associations that disrespect of the philosophic/linguistic fundamentals!


For example, let's look at the work 'tangible' - which is basically described to relate being able to touch: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tangible

Now, obviously Patti is write in saying that physical is tangible through touch, and mental is not tangible through touch.

So, I think your association regarding mental with 'tangible'... is kind of a violation of the basic principle associated with the word 'tangible' because one can not literally touch the mental world.


PS. I hope this example explains why I am only interested to discuss the principles in the hand reading books based on a fundamental approach regarding the meaning of the words (as described by credible authorities & sources). Does this make sense for you?

(By the regarding Patti's 2nd sentence... that is where the problem begins: because in the elemental approach 'earth' is associated with Yin - and Yin is in the elemental approach associated with the 'private world' or 'inner world'.. and thus Patti's (subjective) association for linking physical with 'outer world' is wat "out of touch" with the elemental philosophy. And thus I could say here that here 2nd sentencie is 'not-entangible' with the elemental philosophy. I hope this example illustrates my fundamental point)


___________________________________________
sunny

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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  Sucom on Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:20 pm

[quote]PS. I hope this example explains why I am only interested to discuss the principles in the hand reading books based on a fundamental approach regarding the meaning of the words (as described by credible authorities & sources). Does this make sense for you?[/quote]

Ah yes, I fullly understand what you are saying here. Your message is very clear indeed. Best to leave you to it then. I'm out.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:31 pm


Sue, I think the following might open some new perspectives in your rather philosophical mind:

Because yesterday I arrived at a point where I suddenly (for the first time!) recognized a 2nd similarity between the principles used in Vedic Palmistry & Elemental Chirology. This concerns the fact that the basic principles used in Vedic philosophy (Ida & Pingala) represent clear parallel with the basic principles used in Elemental Chirology (Yin & Yang).

For, the picture below shows how the Taoistic 'Yin' represent a similar principle compared to the Vedic 'Ida' (both are associated with feminine attributes)... and the Taoistic 'Yang' represents a similar principle compared to the Vedic 'Yang' (both are associated with masculine attributes)!

(EDIT: Sue, more info regarding the principle-similarities between the 2 philosophies is presented at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadi_(yoga)#Ida.2C_Pingala_and_Sushumna )

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 Prana_men


And then it becomes much easier to recognize how in both philosophies the thumb side of the hand gets associated with the 'inner world' (picture is taken from a Dutch version of one of Birla's books):

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 Yin-ya11


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:30 pm; edited 3 times in total

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:34 pm

[quote="Sucom"]
PS. I hope this example explains why I am only interested to discuss the principles in the hand reading books based on a fundamental approach regarding the meaning of the words (as described by credible authorities & sources). Does this make sense for you?[/quote]

Ah yes, I fullly understand what you are saying here. Your message is very clear indeed. Best to leave you to it then. I'm out.

PS. Sue, I hope you understood that I associate the words 'credible authorities & sources' with INDEPENDENT sources like for examples Wikipedia.

(I was not using those words to suggest that some hand reading authors might be perceived as more credible than others!)

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  Patti on Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:34 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti, I have explained how Christopher has left the 'basic idea' of Yin & Yang... by suggesting that earth is 'more outward directed' than air (and fire is more entangible than water). This concerns one of Chirstopher's key-principles!


Sorry, your reference to the work of Birla only relate to Birla's use of language... not his key-priniples. And meanwhile you have not specific your percpeptions of Birla's work in terms of any specific key-words/key-principles. And as a consequence you also never refered to Ida & Pingala!

My main experience is with the psychological aspects of reading people and working with them in their everyday world with hopes to shed light on their path and insight into themselves. We are all of the spirit and spirituality is a personal and subjective experience. We are all at different levels of understanding.

Reading hands can be a powerful and enlightening experience and one that fits into many spiritual concepts. Hand analysts from all backgrounds are able to find a common middle ground when reading hands as we are all reading the human hand.

There are many schools of thought in hand reading and there are even many, many more schools of thought when it comes to spirituality. Most having a mix of agreement and disagreement among themselves.

This is the reason I have found the best approach to studying the hands is by combining biological, scientific and psychological facts.

Even then the person having their hands read is listening, understanding and comprehending through their own filter and the reader is doing the same in sharing how they have taken in and comprehended their own knowledge. Keywords are subjective to the individual seeing/hearing them.

On a cellular level all is energy in our hands. Continuous electrical impulses both positive and negative course through our nervous system sending signals simultaneously and instantly via this matrix to and from the heart, stomach, and the brain.

We can divide our existence into categories and label them elements, we can further divide these elements to their polarities of yin and yang. We can watch as positive particles switch to negative and back to positive again. Everything we are aware of is made of energy. This energy would be better illustrated in an animated scalar field superimposed on a palm rather than the last century, and older, methods of using mythological gods and subjective viewpoints to describe behavior.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 Scalar_field

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalar_field
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Post  Patti on Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:41 pm

Sucom wrote:
Patti wrote:Physical is tangible. Mental is not tangible. Physical is outside. It doesn't have to be 'directed' anywhere.

I can't see this discussion ever reaching a satisfactory conclusion because there is a problem of individual perception and understanding throughout the entire discussion, relating to not only the people involved in the discussion but also between the individual perception of authors words, not to mention the perception of the authors themselves!

Take for example, your quote above, Patti. You said, physical is tangible, mental is not tangible and physical is outside. Supposing mental is tangible? What then? It is my own understanding that thoughts are actual things - just because the physical eye cannot see them doesn't mean they don't exist. The physical eye sees only what it is programmed to see, nothing more, nothing less. This is my perception, of course. I would even question that physical is outside. Are you sure it's outside? The outside could simply be a projection of the inside. No-one really knows for sure just yet, so any discussion including these could be less than satisfactory for many.

So you could see that I would also have problems arguing points about positive, negative, inner and outer, because they don't really 'mean' anything at all. It all comes down to one's own understanding of what is the meaning of positive, negative, inner and outer. Science hasn't really discovered this yet, so you could be discussing this for a very long time,...... years maybe.

Hi Sue,
I enjoy very much getting in touch with my thoughts. flower
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Post  RishiRahul on Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:44 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
RishiRahul wrote:This discussion regarding the thumb as 'inner' or 'outer' has been well replied in the first page of the thread:
Re: The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post Patti on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:33 pm
In reality the entire hand is an outer expression of the inner self. It's basic function is to interact with the environment. This interaction is a two way street. In and out. Outward expression of the inner self can be described in all parts of the hands. Inner awareness of the outer environment is also actively found in all parts of the hands. How we relay this inner and outer expression/response is what we interpret by dividing the hand into a variety of realms.

...

Hi Rishi,

Patti's (holistic) "two way street" interaction - between inner self and outer expression - sounds indeed quite interesting.

However, during this discussion it became apparent that it is actually quite hard to find key-words in the hand reading literature that confirm this approach - especially regarding the connection for the pinky finger with the inner world, and the thumb with outer world.

For, in almost every hand reading system the two upper phalanges of the thumb are associated with in respective: 'will/determination' and 'thought/reason'... which are both known as cognitive qualities (that relate to the inner world). And the pinky gets usually associated with key-words such as: communication, relationships & intimacy.


Thus... while Patti's approach may sound interesting at first sight... a more detailed analysis of the traditional concepts used in the field of hand reading for the individual parts of the hand reveals (so far) that the pinky usually (if not always) tends to get associated with key-words that relate to the outer world! And the reverse is true regarding the thumb, which gets associated with key-words that relate to the inner world (see my two examples for the pinky & the thumb).

Now, I have asked Patti to present key-words (from the hand reading literature) that disprove my observation... but so far it appears that she was only able to answer this with associative thoughts & examples.

(E.g. her references earlier today to the hand of the pope & and some story about a man who is in a vegative state of being... anyway, both examples have no direct connection with the hand reading books at all so I don't recognize those to become helpful - because such could at best be described as examples based on rather loose associations).


And thus... so far it appears to me that the 'beauty' of her rather general (holistic) theory appears to lose it's shine as soon as one starts looking for specificity!

(Afterall, her holistic approach has not been substantiated with a detailed theory regarding individual parts of the hand... not in this discussion, and also not on her website)

In my opinion... so far this holistic approach does not appear to stand the test of reality regarding the nature of things (associated with the key-words) that have been written in the many hand reading books published around the world.

(Though of course... make no mistake: I am very aware that quite some authors have presented descriptions suggestion the opposite of my observation regarding inner & outer world - however, in most of those cases the 'key-words' with the individual parts of the hand suggest the opposite. A typical example of the fact that there are quite a lot of contradictions seen in the various hand reading books presented in the world... and then it requires a proper analysis to find out which theories are most likely - because even some very popular concepts can turn out to be the result of 'copy and past work' from earlier published books, etc.)

But Rishi, feel to present evidence (preferably quotes from hand reading books) that could potentially disproof this analysis of mine!


PS. I will later start working on presenting a new picture featured with the most common key-words used for all fingers & palmar zones. After working out the details... time will tell whether that picture will still include a reference to the 'inner world' and 'outer world'.

NOTICE: Despite my observations so far, I will have to study the other parts of the hand (beyond the pinky & the thumb) more precisely before I will be able to present my third (final) picture... which will include more keywords than the first 2 pictures that I have presdented so far (the perspective presented in the 2nd picture, see below, is still very close to my latest perceptions resulting from this discussion so far).


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 Thumb-11

Martjin,

Palmistry is a craft, & does not follow the 'keyword' rigidity.
If ione wants to equate palmistry with the rigidity of keywords; Palmistry is 'smashed'!

The 'inner' & 'outer' topics will go on:=
The good side would be to increase the number of posts.
The adverse side is to tie other's thinking in knots & confuse the self & others.... particularly learners.

This thread does not help the use of this in palmistry as sometimes the outer can be extended (thanks to imagination) to the inner & vice versa.... & the result would be .. trying to prove one's point.

How does this thread benefit palmists? Or does it confuse their learning?
Of course, it increases posts.

There is no final picture in the study ofPalmistry or such crafts. Is there? (you said above that you are going to present a final picture)
...unless one thinks that he has achieved it Finally......

Rishi

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Post  Patti on Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:15 pm

RishiRahul wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
RishiRahul wrote:This discussion regarding the thumb as 'inner' or 'outer' has been well replied in the first page of the thread:
Re: The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post Patti on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:33 pm
In reality the entire hand is an outer expression of the inner self. It's basic function is to interact with the environment. This interaction is a two way street. In and out. Outward expression of the inner self can be described in all parts of the hands. Inner awareness of the outer environment is also actively found in all parts of the hands. How we relay this inner and outer expression/response is what we interpret by dividing the hand into a variety of realms.

...

Hi Rishi,

Patti's (holistic) "two way street" interaction - between inner self and outer expression - sounds indeed quite interesting.

However, during this discussion it became apparent that it is actually quite hard to find key-words in the hand reading literature that confirm this approach - especially regarding the connection for the pinky finger with the inner world, and the thumb with outer world.

For, in almost every hand reading system the two upper phalanges of the thumb are associated with in respective: 'will/determination' and 'thought/reason'... which are both known as cognitive qualities (that relate to the inner world). And the pinky gets usually associated with key-words such as: communication, relationships & intimacy.


Thus... while Patti's approach may sound interesting at first sight... a more detailed analysis of the traditional concepts used in the field of hand reading for the individual parts of the hand reveals (so far) that the pinky usually (if not always) tends to get associated with key-words that relate to the outer world! And the reverse is true regarding the thumb, which gets associated with key-words that relate to the inner world (see my two examples for the pinky & the thumb).

Now, I have asked Patti to present key-words (from the hand reading literature) that disprove my observation... but so far it appears that she was only able to answer this with associative thoughts & examples.

(E.g. her references earlier today to the hand of the pope & and some story about a man who is in a vegative state of being... anyway, both examples have no direct connection with the hand reading books at all so I don't recognize those to become helpful - because such could at best be described as examples based on rather loose associations).


And thus... so far it appears to me that the 'beauty' of her rather general (holistic) theory appears to lose it's shine as soon as one starts looking for specificity!

(Afterall, her holistic approach has not been substantiated with a detailed theory regarding individual parts of the hand... not in this discussion, and also not on her website)

In my opinion... so far this holistic approach does not appear to stand the test of reality regarding the nature of things (associated with the key-words) that have been written in the many hand reading books published around the world.

(Though of course... make no mistake: I am very aware that quite some authors have presented descriptions suggestion the opposite of my observation regarding inner & outer world - however, in most of those cases the 'key-words' with the individual parts of the hand suggest the opposite. A typical example of the fact that there are quite a lot of contradictions seen in the various hand reading books presented in the world... and then it requires a proper analysis to find out which theories are most likely - because even some very popular concepts can turn out to be the result of 'copy and past work' from earlier published books, etc.)

But Rishi, feel to present evidence (preferably quotes from hand reading books) that could potentially disproof this analysis of mine!


PS. I will later start working on presenting a new picture featured with the most common key-words used for all fingers & palmar zones. After working out the details... time will tell whether that picture will still include a reference to the 'inner world' and 'outer world'.

NOTICE: Despite my observations so far, I will have to study the other parts of the hand (beyond the pinky & the thumb) more precisely before I will be able to present my third (final) picture... which will include more keywords than the first 2 pictures that I have presdented so far (the perspective presented in the 2nd picture, see below, is still very close to my latest perceptions resulting from this discussion so far).


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 Thumb-11

Martjin,

Palmistry is a craft, & does not follow the 'keyword' rigidity.
If ione wants to equate palmistry with the rigidity of keywords; Palmistry is 'smashed'!

The 'inner' & 'outer' topics will go on:=
The good side would be to increase the number of posts.
The adverse side is to tie other's thinking in knots & confuse the self & others.... particularly learners.

This thread does not help the use of this in palmistry as sometimes the outer can be extended (thanks to imagination) to the inner & vice versa.... & the result would be .. trying to prove one's point.

How does this thread benefit palmists? Or does it confuse their learning?
Of course, it increases posts.

There is no final picture in the study ofPalmistry or such crafts. Is there? (you said above that you are going to present a final picture)
...unless one thinks that he has achieved it Finally......

Rishi

Thanks! Thumb up

Very good points! Martijn's post sat there for two days and no one, not even Lynn would touch it. The post of mine you quote is my first post. You have made some good observations. Martijn is now contradicting himself. Holistic. And there are 8000 plus hits. Christopher Jones got involved, Sue Compton was pulled in... and my crystal ball cyclops reveals many familiar faces, names lurking in dark corners. Twisted Evil





Patti
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:04 pm

RishiRahul wrote:
Martjin,

Palmistry is a craft, & does not follow the 'keyword' rigidity.
If ione wants to equate palmistry with the rigidity of keywords; Palmistry is 'smashed'!

The 'inner' & 'outer' topics will go on:=
The good side would be to increase the number of posts.
The adverse side is to tie other's thinking in knots & confuse the self & others.... particularly learners.

This thread does not help the use of this in palmistry as sometimes the outer can be extended (thanks to imagination) to the inner & vice versa.... & the result would be .. trying to prove one's point.

How does this thread benefit palmists? Or does it confuse their learning?
Of course, it increases posts.

There is no final picture in the study ofPalmistry or such crafts. Is there? (you said above that you are going to present a final picture)
...unless one thinks that he has achieved it Finally......

Rishi
Hi Rishi,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts again. Thumbs up!

I think we all have our own perceptions regarding the 'craft' (activity) of palmistry is about. However, this topic does not relate to practicing palmistry as a 'craft'. This topic is more about identifying the most common used principles in the hand reading literature (via a comparison of the key-words & principles used by various authors and various hand reading systems).

Now, if people get confused anywhere regarding the sharing of ideas inside this topic... I am happy to help them out.

Did you get confused anyhow regarding the content shared in this topic Rishi?

(If not... thinking then you would get me wondering why you bring up the point anyway???)


Sorry Rishi, I have a completely different perception about how this thread has developed; because your words suggest that you perceive it going nowhere.

Regarding your question about the final picture that I mentioned earlier... are you aware that I already have given 2 pre-views of the final picture? At the bottom of this post you can find a brand-new updated pre-view!

I hope the new picture (see below) is this helpful to understand what I am heading for?

TIP: Try to understand how the key-words presented in the picture relate to common key-words and principles used by various hand reading authors. But next to those key-words... there is a deeper perspective that has risen from this discussion: the philosphical point of view! As a matter of fact, it was only about 14 hours ago that I discovered the parallel regarding the basic principles used in Elemental Chirology (Yin & Yang) and the basic principles used in Vedic Palmistry (Ida & Pingala). Rishi, just in case you are interested to see for more details regarding the deeper philosophic perspective... you can take a look at the following post that I presented earlier today: http://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t2419p585-the-thumb-represents-the-inner-essence-of-man#26388 )


PS. scratch Rishi, it is slightly worrisome for me to see you refer to the number of posts inside this discussion... but I perceive that it does reflect the number of ideas & view that have been discusses & presented. Anyway, I would understand if you got lost in overseeing the developments... but I can assure you that the developments have continued!! Very Happy


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 Thumb-39


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:16 am; edited 3 times in total

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:38 pm

Patti wrote:
Thanks! Thumb up

Very good points! Martijn's post sat there for two days and no one, not even Lynn would touch it. The post of mine you quote is my first post. You have made some good observations. Martijn is now contradicting himself. Holistic. And there are 8000 plus hits. Christopher Jones got involved, Sue Compton was pulled in... and my crystal ball cyclops reveals many familiar faces, names lurking in dark corners. Twisted Evil


Patti, I have only used the word 'holistic' in my responses to your attempts to (dis)qualify the work of Birla. Because Vedic Palmistry is a holistic method, and this is for example illustrated by a description of David Frawley who describes in his preface of Birla's 'Destiny in the Palm of Your Hand' (page x) Birla's work as follows:

"He [Birla] removes palmistry from the realm of mere fortune-telling, and places it solidly into the field of holistic healing, where it can used for enhancing life at all levels."


By the way Patti, I have nowhere suggested that my pictures with key-words represent a 'holistic' approach!

Your perception about how I used the word 'holistic' is appearently completely subjective, because my association regarding Birla's work (I have asked you to try to understand Birla's writings in a holistic manner via the concepts of Ida & Pingala) is actually supported by the words of David Frawley (see the quote taken above)..

It's a pitty that appearently you present yourself as a 'holistich' hand reader... but while discussing Birla's work you were apparently are not able to recognize the holistic nature of Birla's work!

And it appears that you blame me for using the word 'holistic' in my sincere attempt to explain how you got stuck in your own associations regarding individual words chosen by Birla. You didn't refer to Birla's key-words or principles, 'your contradictions' only refered to words used in Birla's style (word choice) of expressing his ideas.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:52 pm


A significant moderation regarding the hypothenar (mount of moon) has been processed inside the chart:

I have replaced the key-word 'sensations' for the key-word 'imagination' (= one of the most common key-words associated with the hypothenar).

(This implicates that I have also deleted Christopher Jones' name from the chart - who's name had been listed only for the key-word 'sensations')

Now there are still 15 authors (of which 11 are TOP 100 authors!) featured in the chart; and for 9 of these authors I have already listed which of the 39 key-words (or likewise synonyms) are featured in their work.


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 Thumb-42


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:03 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Post  RishiRahul on Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:13 pm

Patti wrote:
RishiRahul wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
RishiRahul wrote:This discussion regarding the thumb as 'inner' or 'outer' has been well replied in the first page of the thread:
Re: The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post Patti on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:33 pm
In reality the entire hand is an outer expression of the inner self. It's basic function is to interact with the environment. This interaction is a two way street. In and out. Outward expression of the inner self can be described in all parts of the hands. Inner awareness of the outer environment is also actively found in all parts of the hands. How we relay this inner and outer expression/response is what we interpret by dividing the hand into a variety of realms.

...

Hi Rishi,

Patti's (holistic) "two way street" interaction - between inner self and outer expression - sounds indeed quite interesting.

However, during this discussion it became apparent that it is actually quite hard to find key-words in the hand reading literature that confirm this approach - especially regarding the connection for the pinky finger with the inner world, and the thumb with outer world.

For, in almost every hand reading system the two upper phalanges of the thumb are associated with in respective: 'will/determination' and 'thought/reason'... which are both known as cognitive qualities (that relate to the inner world). And the pinky gets usually associated with key-words such as: communication, relationships & intimacy.


Thus... while Patti's approach may sound interesting at first sight... a more detailed analysis of the traditional concepts used in the field of hand reading for the individual parts of the hand reveals (so far) that the pinky usually (if not always) tends to get associated with key-words that relate to the outer world! And the reverse is true regarding the thumb, which gets associated with key-words that relate to the inner world (see my two examples for the pinky & the thumb).

Now, I have asked Patti to present key-words (from the hand reading literature) that disprove my observation... but so far it appears that she was only able to answer this with associative thoughts & examples.

(E.g. her references earlier today to the hand of the pope & and some story about a man who is in a vegative state of being... anyway, both examples have no direct connection with the hand reading books at all so I don't recognize those to become helpful - because such could at best be described as examples based on rather loose associations).


And thus... so far it appears to me that the 'beauty' of her rather general (holistic) theory appears to lose it's shine as soon as one starts looking for specificity!

(Afterall, her holistic approach has not been substantiated with a detailed theory regarding individual parts of the hand... not in this discussion, and also not on her website)

In my opinion... so far this holistic approach does not appear to stand the test of reality regarding the nature of things (associated with the key-words) that have been written in the many hand reading books published around the world.

(Though of course... make no mistake: I am very aware that quite some authors have presented descriptions suggestion the opposite of my observation regarding inner & outer world - however, in most of those cases the 'key-words' with the individual parts of the hand suggest the opposite. A typical example of the fact that there are quite a lot of contradictions seen in the various hand reading books presented in the world... and then it requires a proper analysis to find out which theories are most likely - because even some very popular concepts can turn out to be the result of 'copy and past work' from earlier published books, etc.)

But Rishi, feel to present evidence (preferably quotes from hand reading books) that could potentially disproof this analysis of mine!


PS. I will later start working on presenting a new picture featured with the most common key-words used for all fingers & palmar zones. After working out the details... time will tell whether that picture will still include a reference to the 'inner world' and 'outer world'.

NOTICE: Despite my observations so far, I will have to study the other parts of the hand (beyond the pinky & the thumb) more precisely before I will be able to present my third (final) picture... which will include more keywords than the first 2 pictures that I have presdented so far (the perspective presented in the 2nd picture, see below, is still very close to my latest perceptions resulting from this discussion so far).


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 Thumb-11

Martjin,

Palmistry is a craft, & does not follow the 'keyword' rigidity.
If ione wants to equate palmistry with the rigidity of keywords; Palmistry is 'smashed'!

The 'inner' & 'outer' topics will go on:=
The good side would be to increase the number of posts.
The adverse side is to tie other's thinking in knots & confuse the self & others.... particularly learners.

This thread does not help the use of this in palmistry as sometimes the outer can be extended (thanks to imagination) to the inner & vice versa.... & the result would be .. trying to prove one's point.

How does this thread benefit palmists? Or does it confuse their learning?
Of course, it increases posts.

There is no final picture in the study ofPalmistry or such crafts. Is there? (you said above that you are going to present a final picture)
...unless one thinks that he has achieved it Finally......

Rishi

Thanks! Thumb up

Very good points! Martijn's post sat there for two days and no one, not even Lynn would touch it. The post of mine you quote is my first post. You have made some good observations. Martijn is now contradicting himself. Holistic. And there are 8000 plus hits. Christopher Jones got involved, Sue Compton was pulled in... and my crystal ball cyclops reveals many familiar faces, names lurking in dark corners. Twisted Evil



Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:18 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Quote repaired)

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Post  RishiRahul on Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:16 pm

Hey Patti,

Thanks for appreciating!

In forums no one/very few watches whose posts stays quiet for how long.......... Sadly.
Public memories are not patient enough for that. The last posts hit the game better!

Most posters who are busy in their normal mundane life get less time to insist themselves on spending too much time on a thread...... Thanks to free time.

When palmistry comes down to winning /losing as it's aim...it is political.

Anyone becoming political with such serious crafts spoils the subject......... Personal objectives are different like lobbying is different.
The world is getting more Political; so that's natural.

You are 11, with a good/strong moon...... Intuitive to very good proportions & least political about such serious crafts/ your Passion.

Of course, there are many silent intelligent posters watching this thread develop.

Cheers!

Rishi










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Post  Patti on Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:09 pm

RishiRahul wrote:Hey Patti,

Thanks for appreciating!

In forums no one/very few watches whose posts stays quiet for how long.......... Sadly.
Public memories are not patient enough for that. The last posts hit the game better!

Most posters who are busy in their normal mundane life get less time to insist themselves on spending too much time on a thread...... Thanks to free time.

When palmistry comes down to winning /losing as it's aim...it is political.

Anyone becoming political with such serious crafts spoils the subject......... Personal objectives are different like lobbying is different.
The world is getting more Political; so that's natural.

You are 11, with a good/strong moon...... Intuitive to very good proportions & least political about such serious crafts/ your Passion.

Of course, there are many silent intelligent posters watching this thread develop.

Cheers!

Rishi


Thanks!
This thread has pretty much come full circle with only one person's opinion and one person's agenda at play. The wind went out of my sails the other day for this topic. It
is interesting to see how meanings are applied to hands by taking keywords from various authors who are not in agreement with each other. Now I understand when reading palmistry books that are basically recopied from older works how misconceptions get passed on.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:13 pm

Patti wrote:
Thanks!
This thread has pretty much come full circle with only one person's opinion and one person's agenda at play. The wind went out of my sails the other day for this topic. It
is interesting to see how meanings are applied to hands by taking keywords from various authors who are not in agreement with each other. Now I understand when reading palmistry books that are basically recopied from older works how misconceptions get passed on.

Patti, all key-words presented in my picture are featured with the name of the author that has used it. So, I don't see any parallel between my picture and the fact that some authors indeed have copied from the works of other authors without even mentioning their names.

By the way, the picture (including the accessory table) is meant to provide a deeper understanding regarding the similarities and differences between the various hand reading systems - inside the table at the bottom of my picture the 15 authors have been grouped in 5 categories (3 different hand reading systems, one '19th/20th century' group, plus one 'other' group). The quadrants for the full hand inside my picture serve to present a (consistent/meaningful) overview of the nature of the featured key-words for the various intra-quadrantial hand zones.

The picture describes some (carefully selected) key-words from the works of these authors. But your qualifications (you talk about "one person's opinion" and "one person's agenda") are rather subjective of nature... which indicates/illustrates that you have taken this discussion to a rather personal level.

I regret that you are not able to associate your own views with the title of this topic, but I have illustrated from quite a few different perspectives (via various hand reading systems + various psychological & philosophical perspectives) that the title of this topic actually has been build on solid grounds.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 Thumb-42

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Post  Patti on Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:05 am

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 6685aa10
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:00 am

Patti wrote:I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 6685aa10

Patti, now that's an interesting picture! Thumbs up!

If I was asked to connect the terms form Jungian psychology & Freudian psychology with the hand, then I would propose the following:

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 Hand-j15

(So, I would prefer to change the vocabulary slightly from what I have presented in my pictures... because I think this representation would relate more to how people tend to associate the 'Ego' with a representation of the Self in the 'outer world' - however the 'Ego' actually reseeds in the 'inner world')


PS. Please be ware... there are other representations available as well which sometimes suggest that one can also associate the 'collective unconscious' with the history of human kind: see the picture below! This explains how in a way the (passive) 'collective unconscious' can be associated to origin in the 'outer world' as suggested by my picture above.


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 Tumblr_lihvnjIbJT1qgnuy3o1_400


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:29 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post  Patti on Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:02 am

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 Psyche10
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:27 am


Shocked Wow... this 'Depth Psychology' picture could become highly significant for our discussion!

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 Depht_popup

Because the picture above shows how 'thinking' (air) is the most conscious cognitive function, then comes 'intuition' (fire), then 'feeling' (water), and finally 'sensation' (earth).

So, 'sensing' (earth) is actually recognized as the most unconscious of the cognitive function... because for a large part it goes !


thinking Now, what does this implicate regarding how the 4 elements are associated with various parts of the hand according Elemental Chirology?

The picture below displays the consequences:

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 Hand-410

Conclusion:

According 'Depth Psychology' the psychological functions become ranked via the elemental approach in the hand in a manner where the thumb actually gets associated to represent the most unconscious 'digit' of the hand!

This suggests that the 'Self' (see the picture in my previous post) is at the border of unconscious & conscious... we can actually see this visualised in Patti's picture representing Jungian psychology!

( thinking I think this an interesting perspective to reflect on... !)

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:47 am

Patti wrote:I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 Psyche10

Very Happy (Nice tried... but I have a few questions!)

Patti, in the psychoanalytic psychology the 'Persona' is always described to be located between the Ego and the 'outer world' (because it represents the 'social face') - just like is seen in the Jungian-psychology picture that you presented in your earlier post.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 Jung5

thinking So, your picture makes me wonder:

1) So, can you tell me... why is in your picture the 'Ego' positioned between the 'Persona' and the 'outer world'??? confused

2) And, can you please specify where you have positioned the 'Ego'? It appears that you have located it at the thumb + index finger?

3) In the hand reading literature I have seen the 'Persona' being associated with the index finger (Holtzman & Haft-Pomrock), the ring finger (Fincham & La Roux), and the fate line (Spier). But I have never seen the 'Persona' being associated with all 4 distal fingers... have you???

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Post  Patti on Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:02 am

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 Psyche10

The persona is the gray mask covering the entire palm (Birla).
The shades of gray indicate the moving from public/ego to private/shadow.
The arrows from Consciousness point to the 5 digits.
Ego = opposing thumb to index finger in particular and the other digits.
Self according to Jung is at the center. Here I've made it the entire palm, but especially focused centrally.
Personal Self is on the radial side.
Unconscious Self is on the ulnar side.
Animus/Anima is on the Thenar mount.
Shadow is on the hypothenar mount.
Collective Unconscious rises from the wrist and heel of the palm.
Outer world is on the radial side.
Inner world is on the ulnar side.





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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:19 am

Patti wrote:I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 Psyche10

The persona is the gray mask covering the entire palm (Birla).
The shades of gray indicate the moving from public/ego to private/shadow.
The arrows from Consciousness point to the 5 digits.
Ego = opposing thumb to index finger in particular and the other digits.
Self according to Jung is at the center. Here I've made it the entire palm, but especially focused centrally.
Personal Self is on the radial side.
Unconscious Self is on the ulnar side.
Animus/Anima is on the Thenar mount.
Shadow is on the hypothenar mount.
Collective Unconscious rises from the wrist and heel of the palm.
Outer world is on the radial side.
Inner world is on the ulnar side.


Patti, you misread Birla - he writes in 'Destiny in the Palm of Your Hand' (p.45) that the 'Persona' can be associated with the ring finger + pinky + ulnar palm-side:

"The mounts and fingers of the outer world indicate the qualities of our interaction with our environment. The outer world [= ulnar side of the hand] shows our public persona and our ability to communicate thoughts and ideas to the world."


Very Happy Patti, are you sure that you would like to adopt Birla's concept of the persona???

(I don't think that you really want to adopt Birla's approach... because you should have know by know that Birla actually associates the ulnar side of the hand with the outer world, and not with the inner world like your suggested in your picture)


wave

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Post  Patti on Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:22 am

Only used Birla here to make a point and respond to your question. (I didn't include him in my new topic)
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Post  Patti on Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:42 am

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 24 A5c0a111

Mask - Persona


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