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» Voltage Line? (= Johnny Fincham's 'Intensity Line'!)
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» Request for a general read and focussed on sun mount signs
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» looks like a loop on the palm but not a loop?
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» Michael 'Air' Jordan: hands of a basketball superstar!
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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 25 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:13 pm

Patti wrote:
Thanks!
This thread has pretty much come full circle with only one person's opinion and one person's agenda at play. The wind went out of my sails the other day for this topic. It
is interesting to see how meanings are applied to hands by taking keywords from various authors who are not in agreement with each other. Now I understand when reading palmistry books that are basically recopied from older works how misconceptions get passed on.

Patti, all key-words presented in my picture are featured with the name of the author that has used it. So, I don't see any parallel between my picture and the fact that some authors indeed have copied from the works of other authors without even mentioning their names.

By the way, the picture (including the accessory table) is meant to provide a deeper understanding regarding the similarities and differences between the various hand reading systems - inside the table at the bottom of my picture the 15 authors have been grouped in 5 categories (3 different hand reading systems, one '19th/20th century' group, plus one 'other' group). The quadrants for the full hand inside my picture serve to present a (consistent/meaningful) overview of the nature of the featured key-words for the various intra-quadrantial hand zones.

The picture describes some (carefully selected) key-words from the works of these authors. But your qualifications (you talk about "one person's opinion" and "one person's agenda") are rather subjective of nature... which indicates/illustrates that you have taken this discussion to a rather personal level.

I regret that you are not able to associate your own views with the title of this topic, but I have illustrated from quite a few different perspectives (via various hand reading systems + various psychological & philosophical perspectives) that the title of this topic actually has been build on solid grounds.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 25 Thumb-42

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Post  Patti on Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:05 am

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 25 6685aa10
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:00 am

Patti wrote:I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 25 6685aa10

Patti, now that's an interesting picture! Thumbs up!

If I was asked to connect the terms form Jungian psychology & Freudian psychology with the hand, then I would propose the following:

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 25 Hand-j15

(So, I would prefer to change the vocabulary slightly from what I have presented in my pictures... because I think this representation would relate more to how people tend to associate the 'Ego' with a representation of the Self in the 'outer world' - however the 'Ego' actually reseeds in the 'inner world')


PS. Please be ware... there are other representations available as well which sometimes suggest that one can also associate the 'collective unconscious' with the history of human kind: see the picture below! This explains how in a way the (passive) 'collective unconscious' can be associated to origin in the 'outer world' as suggested by my picture above.


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 25 Tumblr_lihvnjIbJT1qgnuy3o1_400


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:29 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post  Patti on Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:02 am

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 25 Psyche10
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:27 am


Shocked Wow... this 'Depth Psychology' picture could become highly significant for our discussion!

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 25 Depht_popup

Because the picture above shows how 'thinking' (air) is the most conscious cognitive function, then comes 'intuition' (fire), then 'feeling' (water), and finally 'sensation' (earth).

So, 'sensing' (earth) is actually recognized as the most unconscious of the cognitive function... because for a large part it goes !


thinking Now, what does this implicate regarding how the 4 elements are associated with various parts of the hand according Elemental Chirology?

The picture below displays the consequences:

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 25 Hand-410

Conclusion:

According 'Depth Psychology' the psychological functions become ranked via the elemental approach in the hand in a manner where the thumb actually gets associated to represent the most unconscious 'digit' of the hand!

This suggests that the 'Self' (see the picture in my previous post) is at the border of unconscious & conscious... we can actually see this visualised in Patti's picture representing Jungian psychology!

( thinking I think this an interesting perspective to reflect on... !)

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:47 am

Patti wrote:I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 25 Psyche10

Very Happy (Nice tried... but I have a few questions!)

Patti, in the psychoanalytic psychology the 'Persona' is always described to be located between the Ego and the 'outer world' (because it represents the 'social face') - just like is seen in the Jungian-psychology picture that you presented in your earlier post.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 25 Jung5

thinking So, your picture makes me wonder:

1) So, can you tell me... why is in your picture the 'Ego' positioned between the 'Persona' and the 'outer world'??? confused

2) And, can you please specify where you have positioned the 'Ego'? It appears that you have located it at the thumb + index finger?

3) In the hand reading literature I have seen the 'Persona' being associated with the index finger (Holtzman & Haft-Pomrock), the ring finger (Fincham & La Roux), and the fate line (Spier). But I have never seen the 'Persona' being associated with all 4 distal fingers... have you???

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Post  Patti on Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:02 am

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 25 Psyche10

The persona is the gray mask covering the entire palm (Birla).
The shades of gray indicate the moving from public/ego to private/shadow.
The arrows from Consciousness point to the 5 digits.
Ego = opposing thumb to index finger in particular and the other digits.
Self according to Jung is at the center. Here I've made it the entire palm, but especially focused centrally.
Personal Self is on the radial side.
Unconscious Self is on the ulnar side.
Animus/Anima is on the Thenar mount.
Shadow is on the hypothenar mount.
Collective Unconscious rises from the wrist and heel of the palm.
Outer world is on the radial side.
Inner world is on the ulnar side.





Last edited by Patti on Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:19 am

Patti wrote:I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 25 Psyche10

The persona is the gray mask covering the entire palm (Birla).
The shades of gray indicate the moving from public/ego to private/shadow.
The arrows from Consciousness point to the 5 digits.
Ego = opposing thumb to index finger in particular and the other digits.
Self according to Jung is at the center. Here I've made it the entire palm, but especially focused centrally.
Personal Self is on the radial side.
Unconscious Self is on the ulnar side.
Animus/Anima is on the Thenar mount.
Shadow is on the hypothenar mount.
Collective Unconscious rises from the wrist and heel of the palm.
Outer world is on the radial side.
Inner world is on the ulnar side.


Patti, you misread Birla - he writes in 'Destiny in the Palm of Your Hand' (p.45) that the 'Persona' can be associated with the ring finger + pinky + ulnar palm-side:

"The mounts and fingers of the outer world indicate the qualities of our interaction with our environment. The outer world [= ulnar side of the hand] shows our public persona and our ability to communicate thoughts and ideas to the world."


Very Happy Patti, are you sure that you would like to adopt Birla's concept of the persona???

(I don't think that you really want to adopt Birla's approach... because you should have know by know that Birla actually associates the ulnar side of the hand with the outer world, and not with the inner world like your suggested in your picture)


wave

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Post  Patti on Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:22 am

Only used Birla here to make a point and respond to your question. (I didn't include him in my new topic)
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Post  Patti on Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:42 am

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 25 A5c0a111

Mask - Persona


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Post  Patti on Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:01 am

From "Living with Paradox, An Introduction to Jungian Psychology" Anne Singer Harris

"Samuels, Shorter, & Plant (1986, p. 135) define the Jungian Self as 'an archetypal image of man's fullest potential and the unity of the personality as a whole'."

The author continues: "We should note that in Jungian theory, the idea of the Self as an archetypal image implies the presence of a tendency to organize psychic events that lies beyond the field of human possibility."

"Object relations deals with the way we learn as a child to relate to others, and how we carry impressions of those early objects of our interactions into later life. In that theory, our self is what relates to the objects; it is personal to us, not transcendent in any way."

Jung also refers to the Outer World as the External or Object World.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 25 8122b910
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Post  Patti on Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:18 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti, I hope you understood the word 'persona'? The words 'persona' refers as a mask to hide/protect the (inner) ego.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:27 am

Patti wrote:Only used Birla here to make a point and respond to your question. (I didn't include him in my new topic)

Okay, that's fine... by the way Birla associates the 'Persona' with the ulnar side of the hand, and in his first book 'Love in the Palm of Your Hand' (p.83) Birla has specified the Persona being connected with the sun line.

By the way, it appears that you associate the full hand with the persona (because the full hand is inside your 'Persona-square')... but that can not reflect Jung's idea of the Persona, because according Jung the Persona is supposed to refer to a fully CONSCIOUS aspect of the psyche!

And thus according Jung's theory it is quite impossible to depict the UNCONSCIOUS aspects (e.g. Shadow, Animus & Anima) inside the persona.

So in my view your Persona-square indicates that you have misunderstood the Persona-concept in Jung's theory, because the Persona represents not more than only a small part of the (conscious) psyche.

And this explains why various hand readers - e.g. Spier (fate line), Holtzman (index finger), Haft-Pomrock (index finger), J. Saint-Germain (index finger), La Roux (ring finger), Fincham (ring finger) & Birla (sun line) - have associated the Persona with only a small part of the hand - just like is suggested by Jung's model for the mind!


wave

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Post  Patti on Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:44 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:Only used Birla here to make a point and respond to your question. (I didn't include him in my new topic)

Okay, that's fine... by the way Birla associates the 'Persona' with the ulnar side of the hand, and in his first book 'Love in the Palm of Your Hand' (p.83) Birla has specified the Persona being connected with the sun line.

By the way, it appears that you associate the full hand with the persona (because the full hand is inside your 'Persona-square')... but that can not reflect Jung's idea of the Persona, because according Jung the Persona is supposed to refer to a fully CONSCIOUS aspect of the psyche!

And thus according Jung's theory it is quite impossible to depict the UNCONSCIOUS aspects (e.g. Shadow, Animus & Anima) inside the persona.

So in my view your Persona-square indicates that you have misunderstood the Persona-concept in Jung's theory, because the Persona represents not more than only a small part of the (conscious) psyche.

And this explains why various hand readers - e.g. Spier (fate line), Holtzman (index finger), Haft-Pomrock (index finger), J. Saint-Germain (index finger), La Roux (ring finger), Fincham (ring finger) & Birla (sun line) - have associated the Persona with only a small part of the hand - just like is suggested by Jung's model for the mind!


wave

You do seem to have an odd view of the aspects of the hands when it comes to how to relate them to personality so it doesn't bother me that this doesn't easily work in your mind.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 25 Fate10
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:18 pm

Patti wrote:
You do seem to have an odd view of the aspects of the hands when it comes to how to relate them to personality so it doesn't bother me that this doesn't easily work in your mind.

Patti, that's just a qualification... directly resulting from your own perceptions. Sorry, but I don't recognize any connection with my previous post all all - where I was not talking about my own view at all.

Again, your picture includes some words used by Jung... but you're suggesting that the full hand can represent the Persona is rather surrealistic, and putting unconscious elements (e.g. Shadow, Animus, Anima) inside does not make sense in the perspective of how Jung has described the Persona - which is supposed to represent only a small part of the conscious part inside the psyche which is used only as the 'social face' directed to the outer world.

Please be aware Patti, that in your picture the persona includes all aspects of the psyche... and that is not how Jung described the Persona at all (you should be able to see that inside the picture of Jung's model for the psyche that you presented yesterday).

No

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Post  Patti on Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:26 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
You do seem to have an odd view of the aspects of the hands when it comes to how to relate them to personality so it doesn't bother me that this doesn't easily work in your mind.

Patti, that's just a qualification... directly resulting from your own perceptions. Sorry, but I don't recognize any connection with my previous post all all - where I was not talking about my own view at all.

Again, your picture includes some words used by Jung... but you're suggesting that the full hand can represent the Persona is rather surrealistic, and putting unconscious elements (e.g. Shadow, Animus, Anima) inside does not make sense in the perspective of how Jung has described the Persona - which is supposed to represent only a small part of the conscious part inside the psyche which is used only as the 'social face' directed to the outer world.

Please be aware Patti, that in your picture the persona includes all aspects of the psyche... and that is not how Jung described the Persona at all (you should be able to see that inside the picture of Jung's model for the psyche that you presented yesterday).

No

I would describe the Persona as the first zone of defense to the Outer World. The model applied to the hand is not linear. The hand is representative of energy that is dynamic and multi-dimensional.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:09 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
You do seem to have an odd view of the aspects of the hands when it comes to how to relate them to personality so it doesn't bother me that this doesn't easily work in your mind.

Patti, that's just a qualification... directly resulting from your own perceptions. Sorry, but I don't recognize any connection with my previous post all all - where I was not talking about my own view at all.

Again, your picture includes some words used by Jung... but you're suggesting that the full hand can represent the Persona is rather surrealistic, and putting unconscious elements (e.g. Shadow, Animus, Anima) inside does not make sense in the perspective of how Jung has described the Persona - which is supposed to represent only a small part of the conscious part inside the psyche which is used only as the 'social face' directed to the outer world.

Please be aware Patti, that in your picture the persona includes all aspects of the psyche... and that is not how Jung described the Persona at all (you should be able to see that inside the picture of Jung's model for the psyche that you presented yesterday).

No

I would describe the Persona as the first zone of defense to the Outer World. The model applied to the hand is not linear. The hand is representative of energy that is dynamic and multi-dimensional.

Patti, your description of the Persona sounds fine with me.

But in Jung's picture you can see that the Persona should be located in the conscious zone of the hand. Now, in your picture you've only described the fingers to represent the conscious zone of the hand... and the palm as the unconscious zone - which is fine.

However, the Persona in your picture includes both the conscious zone and the unconscious zone... and therefore your picture does not represent Jung's model of the mind - because Jung describes a completely different set of rules than what is suggested by your picture.

(Addtionally it also weird to see that the persona in your picture is not located more close to the outer world than the inner world... and therefore it appears that your Persona actually describes the complete psyche - except some part of the collective conscious, which you associate with the wrist)

scratch Do you understand my point?

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:59 pm


Picture is almost finished (only three authors to go):


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 25 Thumb-43

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:27 pm


Here's one more Elemental author (Sandra Kynes, p.68) who associates 'expressive' explicit with Apollo (fire) & Mercury (air) with the word 'expressive':
http://books.google.nl/books?id=FGeKj4rI64YC&pg=

"Apollo and Mercury are a combination of communication and versatility. Such people are clever, expressive, and fun to be with and they tend to be exceedingly loyal friends."


thinking So, looks like Christopher Jones is still the only author who has associated fire+earth with 'more expressive'; all other authors appear to associate fire+air (= yang) with more expressive (Kynes) / more expansion (Hirsch) / more outer world (Fincham) / more public (Dukes) etc.


PS. The word 'express' is directly associated with communication (= air): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Express

The word 'expression' is associated with e.g. thought communicated by language, facial expression, emotional expression & sign language:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expression

So, I see growing evidence that Christopher made a fundamental mistake (in many perspectives) by associating earth with 'more expressive'... because the element Earth is actually associated with the word 'immovability' (= one of Jennifer's Earth principles, see page 14).


And thus everything points in the direction that according the basic principles of the Elemental system the thumb should be associated with the inner world... and NOT with the outer world.

I could described as one of the biggest widely adopted fundamental mistakes in the fields of hand reading - because the thumb represents a 'passive' digit in the sense that it has a supportive role for the other fingers.

NOTICE: The thumb is also recognized as the the 'stoutest' of the fingers, and combined with the pressence of only two phalanges is another typical 'Yin' quality!


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 25 Ch50-thumb-statue2


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:48 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post  Patti on Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:41 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
You do seem to have an odd view of the aspects of the hands when it comes to how to relate them to personality so it doesn't bother me that this doesn't easily work in your mind.

Patti, that's just a qualification... directly resulting from your own perceptions. Sorry, but I don't recognize any connection with my previous post all all - where I was not talking about my own view at all.

Again, your picture includes some words used by Jung... but you're suggesting that the full hand can represent the Persona is rather surrealistic, and putting unconscious elements (e.g. Shadow, Animus, Anima) inside does not make sense in the perspective of how Jung has described the Persona - which is supposed to represent only a small part of the conscious part inside the psyche which is used only as the 'social face' directed to the outer world.

Please be aware Patti, that in your picture the persona includes all aspects of the psyche... and that is not how Jung described the Persona at all (you should be able to see that inside the picture of Jung's model for the psyche that you presented yesterday).

No

I would describe the Persona as the first zone of defense to the Outer World. The model applied to the hand is not linear. The hand is representative of energy that is dynamic and multi-dimensional.

Patti, your description of the Persona sounds fine with me.

But in Jung's picture you can see that the Persona should be located in the conscious zone of the hand. Now, in your picture you've only described the fingers to represent the conscious zone of the hand... and the palm as the unconscious zone - which is fine.

However, the Persona in your picture includes both the conscious zone and the unconscious zone... and therefore your picture does not represent Jung's model of the mind - because Jung describes a completely different set of rules than what is suggested by your picture.

(Addtionally it also weird to see that the persona in your picture is not located more close to the outer world than the inner world... and therefore it appears that your Persona actually describes the complete psyche - except some part of the collective conscious, which you associate with the wrist)

scratch Do you understand my point?

Due to recent events where a male is trying to associate the ulnar side of the hand with male/outer energy and the radial side of the hand with feminine/inner energy it has become necessary to extend the persona or protective mask to the entire hand.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:04 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
You do seem to have an odd view of the aspects of the hands when it comes to how to relate them to personality so it doesn't bother me that this doesn't easily work in your mind.

Patti, that's just a qualification... directly resulting from your own perceptions. Sorry, but I don't recognize any connection with my previous post all all - where I was not talking about my own view at all.

Again, your picture includes some words used by Jung... but you're suggesting that the full hand can represent the Persona is rather surrealistic, and putting unconscious elements (e.g. Shadow, Animus, Anima) inside does not make sense in the perspective of how Jung has described the Persona - which is supposed to represent only a small part of the conscious part inside the psyche which is used only as the 'social face' directed to the outer world.

Please be aware Patti, that in your picture the persona includes all aspects of the psyche... and that is not how Jung described the Persona at all (you should be able to see that inside the picture of Jung's model for the psyche that you presented yesterday).

No

I would describe the Persona as the first zone of defense to the Outer World. The model applied to the hand is not linear. The hand is representative of energy that is dynamic and multi-dimensional.

Patti, your description of the Persona sounds fine with me.

But in Jung's picture you can see that the Persona should be located in the conscious zone of the hand. Now, in your picture you've only described the fingers to represent the conscious zone of the hand... and the palm as the unconscious zone - which is fine.

However, the Persona in your picture includes both the conscious zone and the unconscious zone... and therefore your picture does not represent Jung's model of the mind - because Jung describes a completely different set of rules than what is suggested by your picture.

(Addtionally it also weird to see that the persona in your picture is not located more close to the outer world than the inner world... and therefore it appears that your Persona actually describes the complete psyche - except some part of the collective conscious, which you associate with the wrist)

scratch Do you understand my point?

Due to recent events where a male is trying to associate the ulnar side of the hand with male/outer energy and the radial side of the hand with feminine/inner energy it has become necessary to extend the persona or protective mask to the entire hand.

Patti, you're talking as if I have invented the idea that the thumb relates to the inner world. That's not quite what has happened in this discussion at all.

And it looks like you perceive this discussion as some kind of rethoric-game.


Patti, the 'PS' comment in my former post is essential:

Because the shape & form of the thumb - which (contrary to the other fingers) consists of only 2 phalanges and it has the most 'stoutest/stubbed' shape of all fingers + the thumb is the most proximal located digit of the hand ... which are 3 fundamental characteristics which confirm that the thumb should be recognized as a typical 'Yin' expression!

And the thumb is the only digit that can be 'embraced' by the other 4 digits... which is another typical Yin quality!



Hand gesture demonstrating the 'Yin' quality that the thumb represents for the hand:

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 25 Thumbupin

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Post  Patti on Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:24 pm

You really can't be serious pulling an image from this site (claiming the fists are yin/yang symbols) to justify the thumb inside the fist makes the thumb more feminine.

http://www.happehtheory.com/2011/07/31/the-secret-of-the-yin-yang-symbol-06/I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 25 ThumbUpInDrawnYinYang
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Post  Patti on Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:30 pm

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 25 Ch50-thumb-statue2

Wow! A tented arch on the thumb! You know how rare that is!
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Post  Patti on Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:49 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:


And thus everything points in the direction that according the basic principles of the Elemental system the thumb should be associated with the inner world... and NOT with the outer world.

I could described as one of the biggest widely adopted fundamental mistakes in the fields of hand reading - because the thumb represents a 'passive' digit in the sense that it has a supportive role for the other fingers.


The first thing that came to mind when I read this was the story "The Emperor's New Clothes". The second is in order to associate the various aspects of the hand with various categories or systems, you must first have a thorough hands-on experience of reading as many hands as possible in person for a long period of time. The feedback is anecdotal, of course, but the observation of the body language and the interaction with the owner of the hands is the greatest teacher. The feedback is also a barometer of being accurate or inaccurate - and the body gives clues during a reading as to how accurate you are, such as breaking out in a sweat when you've really moved into a shadow zone.

Those of us that do readings would have switched the sides long ago if the hands told us we should.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:31 pm

Patti wrote:You really can't be serious pulling an image from this site (claiming the fists are yin/yang symbols) to justify the thumb inside the fist makes the thumb more feminine.

http://www.happehtheory.com/2011/07/31/the-secret-of-the-yin-yang-symbol-06/I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 25 ThumbUpInDrawnYinYang

Patti, I don't know why you think that I suggested that the fists are 'Yin-Yang' symbols.

I did not talk about any 'symbols' regarding that picture at all. I only refered to the fact that the thumb is the only finger that can get covered almost completely by the other fingers, and I described how this inward-posture is a typical example of a 'Yin' expression... I was not refering to the visual aspects of the Yin-Yang symbol at all!

So it appears that you got caught again in your own associations.


Patti, I have tried to describe how various features of the thumb morphology & motorics show a tendency towards a less outward developement compared to the other did - which usually are longer than the thumb, have more phalanges, are positioned more distallly, the motorics of the other digits are more outward, and... even the 'thick stubby thumb' (= more heavy) is a typical Yin quality - see the picture below!

PS. I hope you are a bit familiar with the qualities of Yin & Yang as listed in the chart below, because when you are not familiar with the principle differences between Yin & Yang... then you might not understand my observations regarding the thumb.


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 25 Yin-yang-chart

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