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Post  Patti on Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:58 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:

Martijn, have you ever heard of the phrase "When you're in a hole, stop digging!"?

Are you now trying to create a new definition for the term 'self-assertion? As if it were non-assertion? Oh...nooo!

No Patti, of course not. I have not suggested that 'self-assertion' is non-assertive, I only have attempted to describe the essence of 'self-assertion'... and how it represents the inner component of assertive behavior!

I could say that the pinky is required for the act of connection & speaking out the linguistic content of the communication itself, but the thumb is required to make the communication assertive!


(I have underlined various elements which I perceive to represent the key-elements inside this wikipedia definition)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assertiveness

"Assertiveness is a particular mode of communication.

Dorland's Medical Dictionary defines assertiveness as: a form of behavior characterized by a confident declaration or affirmation of a statement without need of proof; this affirms the person's rights or point of view without either aggressively threatening the rights of another (assuming a position of dominance) or submissively permitting another to ignore or deny one's rights or point of view"



PS. Your post is entirely suggestive by nature, because you did not even try to describe why you perceive my post as some kind of an attempt to re-define the word 'self-assertion'!

This description describes self-assertive as active outer energy. See green words. You are being self-assertive now in trying to defend yourself. (although somewhat on the aggressive side)
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Post  Patti on Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:50 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:

Martijn, have you ever heard of the phrase "When you're in a hole, stop digging!"?

Are you now trying to create a new definition for the term 'self-assertion? As if it were non-assertion? Oh...nooo!

No Patti, of course not. I have not suggested that 'self-assertion' is non-assertive, I only have attempted to describe the essence of 'self-assertion'... and how it represents the inner component of assertive behavior!

I could say that the pinky is required for the act of connection & speaking out the linguistic content of the communication itself, but the thumb is required to make the communication assertive!


(I have underlined various elements which I perceive to represent the key-elements inside this wikipedia definition)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assertiveness

"Assertiveness is a particular mode of communication.

Dorland's Medical Dictionary defines assertiveness as: a form of behavior characterized by a confident declaration or affirmation of a statement without need of proof; this affirms the person's rights or point of view without either aggressively threatening the rights of another (assuming a position of dominance) or submissively permitting another to ignore or deny one's rights or point of view"



PS. Your post is entirely suggestive by nature, because you did not even try to describe why you perceive my post as some kind of an attempt to re-define the word 'self-assertion'!

As an afterthought.... although the little finger is being described as a form of communication.... it is also representative in anatomy in palmistry as the lower part of the the trunk of the body. This area is considered lower, primal and more animalistic. The place of our body that functions as verbal communication is from our head (mouth/ears/eyes). So, I'd think that when one is communicating directly via the little finger - they are speaking from their nether regions. I don't think the little finger is about direct communication, but rather how the communication is done. Things such as refinement or crudeness could be seen here. Not the actual speaking.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:46 pm

Sucom wrote:The reason I have not been totally involved in this topic is because I have not seen a clear definition of what is meant by the terms 'inner' and 'outer'. I'm tempted to believe that the various arguments for and against where is 'inner' and where is 'outer' can never be resolved without this clear definition.

If one is coming from a perspective that the 'inner' person is the personal ego only and that the personal ego IS the essence, then any discussion coming from this perspective is naturally going to be very different from a discussion which considers the 'inner' person to be a more infinite inner essence projecting itself outwardly as a personal 'ego'.

I think these two aspects are being confused and mixed up in this topic, making it impossible to find a conclusion. There never will be a conclusion while there is no clear definition of what is meant by 'inner' and 'outer' or 'passive' and 'active'.

By the way, Martijn, I do believe I have mentioned some pages back that without a strong thumb, the inner qualities will struggle to project outwardly. As I see it, though, the inner self projects itself outwardly and then reacts to what it perceives. For me it is a circle of the self creating and reacting to an infinite number of possibilities.


Good point Sue! Thumbs up!

In my own perspective I associate 'inner world' first of all with the intra-personal world (= world inside the person) - which is focussed on the person's thoughts, emotions & desires; however, I also recognize how some part of the 'inner world' is consumed by the so-called private-world - which by principle can be described as family-related matters (because in most people a large part of the thoughts & emotions get absorbed by family related matters due to the biological & home related connections).

And I associatiate 'the outer world' first of all with the inter-personal world (= world between persons) + activities in the so-called public-world (+ the unfamiliar/unknown worldly matters).


PS. I could that introverted people are more oriented on the intra-personal world & the private world (+ less interest in the inter-personal & public world); while extraverted people show the opposite tendency.


EDIT (one day later): I have just found the picture below... which probably presents a better perspective than what I described above; in the following post I have connected the 4 dimensions described in this picture with the hand, see:
http://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t2419p810-the-thumb-represents-the-inner-essence-of-man#26829


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 33 1-s2.0-S0740547298000555-gr1


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:26 pm

Patti wrote:http://oavi.pages.tcnj.edu/tools-for-everyone/assertiveness/assertive-nonassertive-and-aggressive-behaviors/

ASSERTIVE BEHAVIOR
Characteristics of assertive behavior include expressing your feelings, needs, ideas, and rights in ways that don’t violate the rights of others. Assertive behavior is usually honest, direct, expressive, spontaneous, and self-enhancing. Assertive persons make their own choices, are confident, and feel good about themselves while being assertive and afterward. They usually achieve their goals; when they don’t, they still feel good about themselves because they know they have been straightforward. Acting assertively reinforces their good feelings about themselves, improves self-confidence, and creates free, honest, and open relationships with others.
NONASSERTIVE BEHAVIOR (sometimes called “Passive Behavior”)
Characteristics of nonassertive behavior include not expressing feelings, needs, and ideas; ignoring personal rights; and allowing others to infringe upon them. Nonassertive behavior is usually emotionally dishonest, indirect, inhibited, and self-denying. Nonassertive persons often let other people choose for them and end up feeling disappointed in themselves and angry with them; at best, they can be described as passive, at worst as a doormat. People often choose nonassertive behavior to avoid unpleasant situations, tension, conflict, and confrontation.
AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR
Characteristics of aggressive behavior include expressing your feelings, needs, and ideas at the expense of others. Aggressive persons stand up for their rights, but ignore the rights of others; they may dominate or humiliate other people. While this behavior is expressive, it is also defensive, hostile, and self-defeating.

Patti, what is your point?

These definitions describe behaviors via similar themes mentioned in in my Wikipedia quote (which e.g. describes that assertive behavior is different from acting aggressiv or submissive).

I have described how 'cognition' plays a significant role in assertive behavior because it requires a mix of self-esteem, self-confidence and self-control. This is also illustrated by the fact that assertivity-training is nearly always featured with cognitive behavior therapy, because cognitive part is essential in order to make the attempt to act assertive succesfull.

My term 'self-assertive' directly relates to this cognitive component in assertive behavior.


Please also be aware:

The word 'assertiveness' was initially described by Joseph Wolphe in 1958 as a behavior strategy focussed on "reciprocal inhibition" of anxiety; Wolphe introduced assertiveness training as a cognitive behavior therapy to deal with aniety! More details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Wolpe

So again, even though 'assertiveness' is in daily life often associated with certain types of behavior... few people are aware of the role of the cognitive component. And this also explains why people often become too agressive in their attempt to act 'assertive'.

PS. This also explains why assertiveness manuals often point out: "many people, when trying out assertive behaviour for the first time, find that they go too far and become aggressive".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assertiveness#Criticism

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:50 pm

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 33 1-s2.0-S0191308509000136-gr1

The picture above describes that 'assertive' behavior highly depends on the circumstances in a situation; I think this is illustrative for the significant role of the cognition component in assertive behavior.

(Again, my term 'self-assertive' only directly relates to this cognitive component)


For example: in a situation of a conflict where aggression is involved (a military conflict) assertiveness can manifest via passive avoidant behavior (in order to avoid escalation); while for example in a conflict with common interests (a economic conflict) assertiveness can manifest via more competitive behavior.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:38 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:

Martijn, have you ever heard of the phrase "When you're in a hole, stop digging!"?

Are you now trying to create a new definition for the term 'self-assertion? As if it were non-assertion? Oh...nooo!

No Patti, of course not. I have not suggested that 'self-assertion' is non-assertive, I only have attempted to describe the essence of 'self-assertion'... and how it represents the inner component of assertive behavior!

I could say that the pinky is required for the act of connection & speaking out the linguistic content of the communication itself, but the thumb is required to make the communication assertive!


(I have underlined various elements which I perceive to represent the key-elements inside this wikipedia definition)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assertiveness

"Assertiveness is a particular mode of communication.

Dorland's Medical Dictionary defines assertiveness as: a form of behavior characterized by a confident declaration or affirmation of a statement without need of proof; this affirms the person's rights or point of view without either aggressively threatening the rights of another (assuming a position of dominance) or submissively permitting another to ignore or deny one's rights or point of view"



PS. Your post is entirely suggestive by nature, because you did not even try to describe why you perceive my post as some kind of an attempt to re-define the word 'self-assertion'!

This description describes self-assertive as active outer energy. See green words. You are being self-assertive now in trying to defend yourself. (although somewhat on the aggressive side)

Patti, again, the term 'self-assertive' (= adjective) is not entirely the same as the 'assertiveness' (= noun).

The origins of the word assertiveness go back to the work Joseph Wolpe (a behavior therapist) who developed the concept of assertiveness as a strategy to cope with post-traumatic stress for soldiers.

This is how in the 60's assertiveness became a tool to deal with anxiety (via "reciprocal inhibition").

Only much later the word also became a theme in popular psychology when it also became recognize as a behavior skill suitable to deal with less stressfull situations in daily life (compared to the stress that soldiers are confronted with).


By the way, regarding my term 'self-assertive': assertive is an adjective = a describing word.

And regarding the Etymology of the word 'assert':

"From Latin assertus, perfect passive participle of asserō ("declare someone free or a slave by laying hands upon him; hence free from, protect, defend; lay claim to, assert, declare"), from ad ("to") + serō ("join, range in a row")."

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/assert


In a way one can describe assertive behavior as a cognitive-behavior strategy to avoid that one becomes the victim of anxiety (which by nature results in passive behavior).

So in essence any attempt to behave assertive can be deduced to a cognitive-behavior attempt to create more balance between inner and outer world... and my use of the term 'self-assertive' directly relates to the cognitive component in this matter only.

I don't think that I can explain much more how I used the term 'self-assertive'.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:52 pm

Lynn wrote:...

Feel free to write your article and claim that was how you saw it all along, but for sure you have changed your understanding & perception throughout this discussion much more than Patti or I have done.

No I did not change my perceptions at all Lynn - so I think your words are just an expression of how you perceive my input after I have started using the term 'self-assertion'.

You are welcome to point out where you perceive that I have changed anything compared to my earliest posts inside this topic.


By the way...

5 days ago I already expressed that I was happy with your descrtiption: 'the thumb represents how we put our inner self out into the external world'!

But I also pointed out that there is ambiguity hidden inside those words, and I think my explanation regarding my use of the term 'self-assertion' today can be recognized as a further description & exploration of this ambiguity!

(The post below is copied from here: http://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t2478p30-jung-s-model-of-the-psyche-applied-to-the-hand#26590 )


Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:I have just replied on the other thread. I also agree with Gettings that the thumb represents how we put our inner self out into the external world.

Lynn, I find your word choice very interesting here!
Did you have any specific passage from Gettings work in mind when you wrote this? If yes, can you please present a quote from his work?


PS. In my view, I could say that the thumb represents inner qualities that make it possible to put our inner self out into the external world. But the thumb can not do this by itself: the thumb needs to fingers to do this!

(And therefore I conser the fingers as more outward directed than the thumb itself!)

Actually I notice I used the same words as Patti. Really this is the subject of the other thread about the thumb, but as you asked here I will reply here.

There are several quotes I could take from Gettings, here are 3:

“It is hardly surprising that the thumb, so intimately connected with the externals of our life, should represent that quality and quantity of energy which we divert towards that life.”

“The nail phalange, which is traditionally linked to the willpower of the individual, reveals the quantity of energy at his disposal and the manner in which this energy is directed towards the external world.”

“A strong nail phalange indicates a good clear passage of energy towards external life…..”

Okay, thanks Lynn.

I observe that in these quotes Gettings does not refer anyhow to the inner world. But I want you to know that I very much like your words describing how the thumb relates to how we put our 'inner self' out in the "outer world".

Maybe the difference between my view and your view is that you perceive the thumb doing this directly, while I perceive the thumb doing this via the other fingers.


Thanks!

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Post  Patti on Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:26 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote: thinking So, at the end... maybe what is missing in our discussion so far is a proper analysis of why the palm became associated with the 'body' and the fingers with the 'mind'...??
Because at first sight it would make much more sense to simply assume that the (mental) 'mind' SHOULD require to relate to our 'inner world' only... and not to the outer world! Correct???

Martijn, I already explained.
"There are lots of different ways of looking at the zones and divisions of the hand......
everything can be subdivided, and subdivided again and again.....

Hand shape -
Palm vs fingers - the fingers represent the mind, the palm represents the body. They reflect the general mind/body balance of a person. (this can be used at first glance on looking at a hand)
Fingers predominate = Long fingers (air and water hands) the mind predominates over the body. ie mental activities are most important, inner world is more dominant over the physical, active world. .
Palm predominates = Short fingers (earth and fire hands) the body predominates over the mind. (ie physical activities ‘doing’ predominates over ‘thinking’)"

However, if fingers & thumb would get associated with 'outer world'... this would create a contradiction with the idea that the fingers represent the 'mind'.
I suggested " the palm represents the inner world and .the fingers & thumb represent how we connect that to the outer world." not the outer world itself. A vehicle to connect with the outer world.

From Page 5:

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Post  Patti on Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:33 pm

Martijn I think you are seriously confusing and misusing the word assertive in combination with self-assertive to describe the qualities of repression and suppression. When one maintains or holds themselves back with some kind of discipline and restraint, the energy is pulling inwards.

No
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:50 pm

Patti wrote:Martijn I think you are seriously confusing and misusing the word assertive in combination with self-assertive to describe the qualities of repression and suppression. When one maintains or holds themselves back with some kind of discipline and restraint, the energy is pulling inwards.

No

Patti, who talks about repressing/suppresing feelings? Only you did!

Please be aware: the Wikipedia page clearly reports 'control of anger' as one of the key-feature of assertive people:

"- They have control over their anger. This does not mean that they repress this feeling; it means that they control anger and talk about it in a reasoning manner."

That's why I have associated assertiveness with: self-control!

Therefore I think you have misunderstood the essential (cognitive) component associated with assertiveness (just like many people tend to do).


PS. I did not talk about 'repression' nor 'suppression' at all: you struggle (again) with your own associations!

I have only described how historically the concept of assertiveness became associated with a cognitive behavioral strategy where 'self-control' is being used to deal with anxiety (in the sense not allow anxiety to contol the behavior).

Contrary to your suggestion (your talk about 'confusing' and 'misusing' probably reflects only your state of mind)... the cognitive component that I have described is actually the essential component to understand the essence of assertive behavior properly.

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Post  Patti on Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:08 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:

Martijn, have you ever heard of the phrase "When you're in a hole, stop digging!"?

Are you now trying to create a new definition for the term 'self-assertion? As if it were non-assertion? Oh...nooo!

No Patti, of course not. I have not suggested that 'self-assertion' is non-assertive, I only have attempted to describe the essence of 'self-assertion'... and how it represents the inner component of assertive behavior!

I could say that the pinky is required for the act of connection & speaking out the linguistic content of the communication itself, but the thumb is required to make the communication assertive!


(I have underlined various elements which I perceive to represent the key-elements inside this wikipedia definition)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assertiveness

"Assertiveness is a particular mode of communication.

Dorland's Medical Dictionary defines assertiveness as: a form of behavior characterized by a confident declaration or affirmation of a statement without need of proof; this affirms the person's rights or point of view without either aggressively threatening the rights of another (assuming a position of dominance) or submissively permitting another to ignore or deny one's rights or point of view"



PS. Your post is entirely suggestive by nature, because you did not even try to describe why you perceive my post as some kind of an attempt to re-define the word 'self-assertion'!

This description describes self-assertive as active outer energy. See green words. You are being self-assertive now in trying to defend yourself. (although somewhat on the aggressive side)

Patti, again, the term 'self-assertive' (= adjective) is not entirely the same as the 'assertiveness' (= noun).

The origins of the word assertiveness go back to the work Joseph Wolpe (a behavior therapist) who developed the concept of assertiveness as a strategy to cope with post-traumatic stress for soldiers.

This is how in the 60's assertiveness became a tool to deal with anxiety (via "reciprocal inhibition").

Only much later the word also became a theme in popular psychology when it also became recognize as a behavior skill suitable to deal with less stressfull situations in daily life (compared to the stress that soldiers are confronted with).


By the way, regarding my term 'self-assertive': assertive is an adjective = a describing word.

And regarding the Etymology of the word 'assert':

"From Latin assertus, perfect passive participle of asserō ("declare someone free or a slave by laying hands upon him; hence free from, protect, defend; lay claim to, assert, declare"), from ad ("to") + serō ("join, range in a row")."

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/assert



In a way one can describe assertive behavior as a cognitive-behavior strategy to avoid that one becomes the victim of anxiety (which by nature results in passive behavior).

So in essence any attempt to behave assertive can be deduced to a cognitive-behavior attempt to create more balance between inner and outer world... and my use of the term 'self-assertive' directly relates to the cognitive component in this matter only.

I don't think that I can explain much more how I used the term 'self-assertive'.

I checked your link for "assertive" and see that it continues with this description:

Etymology: [ &-'s&rt, a- ] (transitive verb.) circa 1604. From Latin assertus, perfect passive participle of asserō (“declare someone free or a slave by laying hands upon him; hence free from, protect, defend; lay claim to, assert, declare”) ad (“to”) + serō (“join, range in a row”).

Synonyms: affirm, asseverate, aver, advance, allege, argue, asservate, attest, avouch, avow, butt in, cite, claim, contend, defend, horn in, justify, mouth off, pop off

These are all outward, active words.




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Post  Patti on Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:19 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:

By the way, regarding my term 'self-assertive': assertive is an adjective = a describing word.

And regarding the Etymology of the word 'assert':

"From Latin assertus, perfect passive participle of asserō ("declare someone free or a slave by laying hands upon him; hence free from, protect, defend; lay claim to, assert, declare"), from ad ("to") + serō ("join, range in a row")."

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/assert


In a way one can describe assertive behavior as a cognitive-behavior strategy to avoid that one becomes the victim of anxiety (which by nature results in passive behavior).

So in essence any attempt to behave assertive can be deduced to a cognitive-behavior attempt to create more balance between inner and outer world... and my use of the term 'self-assertive' directly relates to the cognitive component in this matter only.

I don't think that I can explain much more how I used the term 'self-assertive'.

You underlined the word "passive" in the wiktionary definition, but apparently failed to notice that it's describing a *passive participle* which is about usage in a sentence.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/perfect_passive_participle

perfect passive participle (plural perfect passive participles)
A part of speech present in some languages (e.g. Latin) but absent in English, providing a sense of something having happened (e.g. 'having been educated').


It relates here to past tense. Not a lack of action.

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Second, sorry Manfred... I perceive your first words merely as a rather superficial judgement that appears to be based on Lynn's moment of 'unbelief'; in my previous post I have explained to Lynn why she probably misunderstood my use of the word 'self-assertion' - which I perceive as a manifestation of balanced self-control based on self-esteem).

http://www.bangor.ac.uk/studentservices/counselling/documents/Assertiveness.pdf

What is Assertiveness?
Assertiveness is an attitude and a way of relating to the outside world, backed up by a set
of skills for effective communication. To be truly assertive, you need to see yourself as
being of worth and as having a right to enjoy life. At the same time, you value others
equally, respecting their right to an opinion and to enjoy themselves.


http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/self-assertive

self–assertive adjective

1. having or showing a bold forcefulness in the pursuit of a goal <we need to hire self-assertive salespeople who don't require constant supervision>

Synonyms ambitious, assertive, enterprising, fierce, go-getting, high-pressure, in-your-face, militant, pushy, self-asserting, self-assertive

Related Words argumentative, bellicose, belligerent, combative, contentious, discordant, disputatious, gladiatorial, militant, pugnacious, quarrelsome, trigger-happy, truculent, warlike; hyperaggressive, overambitious; dynamic, energetic, enterprising, gung ho, hustling, strenuous, vigorous; emphatic, obtrusive; adventuresome, adventurous, daring, dashing, emboldened, gutsy, venturesome, venturous; audacious, bold, brash, brassy, bumptious, cheeky, cocksure, cocky, confident, determined, forward, impudent, insolent, overconfident, presumptuous, unapologetic, unsubdued, unyielding; bare-knuckle (also bare-knuckled or bare-knuckles), feisty, scrappy; dominating, domineering, imperious, lordly, magisterial, overbearing


So far it seems that your use, Martijn, is a self described definition without any fundamental backing otherwise.
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Post  Patti on Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:32 am

Afghan President Hamid Karzai gestures as he addresses the Afghan Parliament in Kabul, Afghanistan, Wednesday, March 6, 2013. (AP Photo/Anja Niedringhaus)

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 33 R-HAGEL-KARZAI-PRESS-CONFERENCE-CANCELED-large570

Here is someone displaying self-assertive behavior. Notice the upward pointing thumb and index. The thumb holds in control the middle finger (perhaps balancing self control). The little finger is the most curled into the palm. Palm is concealed by fingers.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:15 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
...

So, I could specify that both sides of the hand play a role in how the mind works and how we relate to the outer world. The thumb & index finger show more of how the inner world (in terms of drives, needs & desires) becomes manifest in the outer world, and the pinky and ring finger show more how we perceive & communicate with the outer world in order to absorb it into the inner world... in order to individualize ourselves.

This probably explains why long thumbs (which can be the result of high set thumbs) and long index fingers (relative to ring finger length) are more often seen in people who are more introverted. And long fingered people (who have long middle fingers) show this tendency towards introversion as well.

...
Lynn & Patti,

Let me try to explain why my words above are a direct reflection of why I perceive the thumb side as more representative for the inner world, and the pinky side as more representative for how we relate to the outer world.

When I say "the thumb & index finger show more of how the inner world (in terms of drives, needs & desires) becomes manifest in the outer world", I am basically only describing how the thumb + index finger more display the inner world itself (= the intra-personal world + private life [family/home]).

When I say "the pinky and ring finger show more how we perceive & communicate with the outer world in order to absorb it into the inner world", I am basically only describing how the pinky and ring finger more display how we relate to the outer world (= interpersonal world + public life).

And then this is the result:

- Overdevelopment at the radial zone (thumb + index finger) implicates: more inner world = more introvert = less assertive (because due to the stronger focus on the inner world the influence of negative feelings becomes larger).

- Overdevelopment at the ulnar side (pinky + ring finger) implicates: more outer world = more extravert = more assertive (because due to the stronger focus on the outer world the influence of negative feelings becomes smaller).


Now, after explaining this... I think there can be no doubt at all about whether I have changed my perceptions or not - because I have not. However, during this discussion I have used various ways to put things in perspective.


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 33 Introversion+and+Extroversion


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:50 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:32 am


Ahaaa....! Smile
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 33 1-s2.0-S0740547298000555-gr1

thinking Maybe this picture provides an interesting perspective to put the 4 quadrants of the hand in a perspective. In this perspective I would prefer to make the following connections:

- upper radial quadrant = Ego structure (= inner world)
- lower radial quadrant = family system (= outer world)
- lower ulnar quadrant = psychobiological personality* (= inner world)
- upper ulnar quadrant = cultural & proximal systems* (= outer world)

* Psychobiological personality includes the key-words: arrousal, affect, temperamental which can be associated with some key-themes associated with the hypothenar'.

** Cultural & proximal system includes the key-words: social expectations, relationships (pinky!), peer group; which can associated with some key-themes associated with the pinky & ring finger.



NOTICE: In my literature-picture (see below) the Ego is linked with the thumb + self with index finger + Super-Ego with middle finger (therefore I think connecting the 'Ego structure' with the upper radial quadrant should make sense); family is linked in my literature-picture with the thenar (therefore I think connecting the 'family systems' with the lower radial quadrant should make sense); emotions and impulses is linked in my literature-picture with the hypothenar (and therefore I think connecting the 'psychobiological personality' with the lower ulnar quadrant should make sense) relationships is linked in my literature-picture with the pinky finger (therefore I think connecting the 'cultural and proximal systems' with the upper ulnar quadrant should make sense).

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 33 Thumb-inner-essence-10

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:28 pm


Lynn, I think this article presents a very interesting summary of a lecture describing why 'earth' (= material realities in the picture at the bottom of this post) is recognized as Yin and acting inward as a world of phenomena (which explains why earth is associated with Yin and should not be associated with 'more outward'):
http://martyrion.blogspot.nl/2010/10/nature-of-inner-world-and-of-outer.html

The example of a rainbow is a beautiful illustration of how the material worlds directly works inside us: because a rainbow does not really exist as a material substance... but the beauty of a rainbow can 'impress' us anyway!

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 33 Rainbow1

Steiner described:

"Just as we see the rainbow with our eyes without searching for a material reality behind it, accepting it as appearance, so we must accept the entire external world as it is, ..."

And this is why the entire physical world works inside us a 'impressions'... usually only via the appearance as a phenomenon - see the picture below

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 33 199-11

However...

And the issue of tangibility is actually a related matter! Because while tangibility directly relates to our ability to touch- and to manipulate things on a physical dimension, it also relates to the feature of a property to stick together: in earth & water the inward directed forces keep the substance together in a more of less fixed structure!

One can only manipulate earth & water... because when we take a piece of earth or an amount of water inside our hands and seperate it in two equal amounts. But we can not do this with fire and air!

And therefore the 'spiritual appearances' related to earth and water became associated with going inside (Yin), while the 'spiritual realities' related to fire and air got associated with going outside (Yang) - see the picture above.

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Post  Patti on Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:31 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:



I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 33 Thumb-10

The above implicates that in a neutral vocabulary (not associated with a specific religion nor a specific philosophy) one might say that in the field of hand reading the thumb can be said to represent the 'core-identity' of a person.

I hope this makes sense?


So, far it appears the main support used for this new idea is from selected philosophies and palmistry systems.

Lynn wrote:

Martijn, I am interested to know more about your labellings of the fingers & their identities. eg I think of middle finger more as cultural identity, how we fit into our environment, rather than being self-identity which I associate more with index finger. You label index as 'ego identity' - ego is the self so how do you differentiate ego identity from self identity? Also I don't know what affective identity means.

I am really confused about your labelling of ulna - outer world = subconscious and radial - inner world = conscious. The thumb being associated with the inner world is new to me. (apart from it being a means to express our inner world to the outside world).


Same questions as Lynn in this first paragraph.

We could have saved a lot of time and energy if you could have posted your last post in response to Lynn's and my questioning at the beginning of this thread. Because you have presented nothing new or unknown in this field.

But, I will add, I have at times enjoyed very much the discussion and have been inspired to create my own interpretation via Jung's Model of the Psyche and applied it to the hands. In that case I appreciated this discussion very much.

nice thread
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Post  Lynn on Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:42 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn, I think this article presents a very interesting summary of a lecture describing why 'earth' (= material realities in the picture at the bottom of this post) is recognized as Yin and acting inward as a world of phenomena (which explains why earth is associated with Yin and should not be associated with 'more outward')

Martijn I have explained to you several times the context in which Christopher used the word 'outward' was with regard to earth in human terms being our physical form & shape, our body. I have never disagreed that earth is a yin element, neither has Christopher.

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Post  Patti on Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:51 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Lynn, I think this article presents a very interesting summary of a lecture describing why 'earth' (= material realities in the picture at the bottom of this post) is recognized as Yin and acting inward as a world of phenomena (which explains why earth is associated with Yin and should not be associated with 'more outward'):
http://martyrion.blogspot.nl/2010/10/nature-of-inner-world-and-of-outer.html


And therefore the 'spiritual appearances' related to earth and water became associated with going inside (Yin), while the 'spiritual realities' related to fire and air got associated with going outside (Yang) - see the picture above.

Rudolf Steiner has some odd viewpoints about things. He has a completely different concept of inner and outer than many others.

"This is why it is important not to assume that by inward brooding one could discover something spiritual; there, we should seek for the constitution of the material human organism. One should not seek for all manner of mystical realities within oneself, as I have pointed out from a number of viewpoints. Instead, behind what pushes up into the soul and thus turns into a spiritual phenomenon, especially when one penetrates more and more deeply into oneself, we should seek the interaction of liver, heart, lungs, and other organs that mystics in particular do not like to hear mentioned. There we become acquainted with the essentially material element of our earthly existence. As I have often emphasized, many a person who believes he has encountered mystical realities by descending deeply into his inner being only finds what is given off by his liver, gall bladder and other related organs. Just as tallow turns into flame, so everything that liver, lungs, heart and stomach give off turns into mystical phenomena when it lights up into consciousness."

"In genuine spiritual science, it is important that we do not search for material substance in the outer world and do not seek the Spirit in the inner world, which initially appears as such through inward brooding".

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Post  Patti on Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:10 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:

The example of a rainbow is a beautiful illustration of how the material worlds directly works inside us: because a rainbow does not really exist as a material substance... but the beauty of a rainbow can 'impress' us anyway!


This really makes no sense in the sense of senses.

We perceive the world with our senses. A rainbow and a mountain can give us the same effect and they are both outside of ourselves. The immaterial or solid nature does not make a difference in our sense of awe.

We are always taking inwardly the outer world.

Sight displays the image inside the back of our heads. Taste is also the outside taken internally. Smelling is taking in of molecules via our nostrils.
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Post  Patti on Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:33 pm

Martijn, why have you brought Rudolf Steiner's philosophy into this topic? I googled him for some more viewpoints and found this link and quote:

http://www.skepdic.com/steiner.html

Steiner here seems to be thinking along the same line as Julius Jaynes' concept of the bicameral mind.

His previous term was at the time of the Greek philosophers, when people first developed intellectual, analytical consciousness. Before this the highest form of consciousness was feelings. The Greek philosophers used thinking exclusively to understand the spiritual world. A review of their works will substantiate this. Not until Aristotle was thinking used to understand the physical world.

Michael's turn ended at the time of Aristotle. After Aristotle, until Michael’s next turn, consciousness would be limited to the physical world....Humanity had a hard time disassociating from the spiritual world but it was imperative that they do so in order to develop individual egos....Once individuality was established the next step would be to unite the bits and pieces of the physical world, which is really a return to the oneness of the spiritual world
.



In the very last paragraph of the link you gave in your post with the rainbow, he says:

"Today, the “how” matters more than the “what. Everything depends an our acquiring thought forms that are suitable tools for the comprehension of the spiritual life, for in reality spiritual life is everywhere. We have spiritual realities here in our surroundings as well as from beyond the sense world. It is out of these spiritual realities that social reconstruction must come about, not out of the empty talk appearing in Leninism and Trotskyism, which is nothing but the squeezed-out lemon of old commonplace Western views that have no power to produce any viable kind of social idea."

I'll use the above quote to support what I said about the upper ulnar quadrant being more about how communication is done rather than the actual communication.
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Post  Lynn on Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:46 pm

Martijn said
while tangibility directly relates to our ability to touch- and to manipulate things on a physical dimension
'tangible' is not always related to touch alone. Here's another definition -

"Having physical existence and/or form, or discernible through one or more senses."

http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/tangible.html

it also relates to the feature of a property to stick together
Yes I have spoken about principle of graduated materiality from the most tangible, dense, concrete, solid to the most intangible, refined, discrete, invisible.
(btw water is adhesive as well as cohesive.)

a rainbow does not really exist as a material substance
so water droplets are not a material substance?
the rainbow is tangible in the sense that we can see it, tho intangible in the sense that we can't grasp hold of it and we will never find the pot of gold at the end of it!

Patti said
Martijn, why have you brought Rudolf Steiner's philosophy into this topic?
I was going to ask the same question.
Thinking back to when Martijn said
Lynn, if ether can only be studied via the other 4 elements... this actually confirms that it can not be studied directly, and since ether can not be studied directly one can by principle also never validate or test any theory about how ether can be recognized via the hand, etc.... and therefore it is a philosphical excersice only!
I'm not sure why we are now being presented with Steiner spiritual philosophy when Martijn started this topic with a view to "describing the role of the thumb in the perspective of the full hand - without using any theological- nor any philosophical vocabulary." Apparently this Steiner link is to support some point Martijn is trying to make (tho the point of it escapes me).
Anyway it makes a change to see Martijn posting about 'spiritual realities' lol!


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Post  Lynn on Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:54 pm

learner wrote:Hi Ms. Lynn,

I'd like to suggest a remedy for your computer reboots.
Type out your posts in a word processing software such as MS Word. Save it after every 2 or 3 sentences. Once your thoughts are on paper, just copy & paste into this forum.
This way, you will not have to rewrite the whole thing again.

hi learner, thank you very much for trying to help me avoid the Hopeless when a long reply gets zapped into cyberspace! I appreciate it. Of course I already know that I should do that, but I forget,,,, until my computer suddenly switches off, or I press the wrong key and lose it all!
Thanks!

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Post  Lynn on Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:00 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:Ahaaa....! Smile
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 33 1-s2.0-S0740547298000555-gr1

thinking Maybe this picture provides an interesting perspective to put the 4 quadrants of the hand in a perspective. In this perspective I would prefer to make the following connections:

- upper radial quadrant = Ego structure (= inner world)
- lower radial quadrant = family system (= outer world)
- lower ulnar quadrant = psychobiological personality* (= inner world)
- upper ulnar quadrant = cultural & proximal systems* (= outer world)

If you are planning to present any article about quadrants, I hope you mention that it is your interpretation of the quadrants and does not relate to 5-element chirology quadrants.

Interesting to note that you have labelled
lower radial quadrant = family system (= outer world)
when this is the earth quadrant and you have ranted on and on about how earth is yin and Christopher violated all principles and made a big mistake by calling it 'outer'.

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Post  Lynn on Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:12 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:

I think this passage shows how thumb & index finger represent active self-assertion - which represents a direct manifestation of the inner world into the outer world.

While the pinky & ring finger are the passive components that relate to how the outer world is absorbed and perceived (where the archetypes of the unconscious - which reside inside the mount of moon - are the necessary structures & tools that are required to understand the outer world in order to make communicate possible).


Exactly what I and Lynn and then Sue (along with other members) have said from the beginning. Too bad you didn't take a look at this book earlier as it seemed to say the same thing in a way that got through to you.

Patti, my words above are consistent with the perceptions that I started sharing in my very first post.

And I think so far you have never described the radial hand to represent more a manifestation of the inner world to the outer world, nor did you describe the ulnar hand to represent more how the outer world is perceived and absorbed.

Nor did Lynn & Sue!

Unbelievable! What's going on here? have we been completely misunderstanding each other all the way thru this discussion? Or have you changed your perceptions Martijn?

Martijn, as I understand it, your words above are NOT consistent with the perceptions that you have shared throughout this discussion. All the way through this discussion you have asserted that the radial side represents the inner world. We have been saying all along that the radial side is the active self-assertion, how we express our inner world to the outer. You have said all the way through that pinky & ring finger are active and now you are agreeing with Ursula von Mangoldt that they are passive.
When I said that ulna side was passive, I think you accused me of violating the yin-yang principles because fire and air fingers are active.

Patti has shown you how she has seen it all the way through but still you are disputing and dismissing her arguments.

Feel free to write your article and claim that was how you saw it all along, but for sure you have changed your understanding & perception throughout this discussion much more than Patti or I have done.

Hi Lynn,

I am sorry to see how you completely got lost in how I used the term 'self-assertion'. But I can specify why my use of those words is consistent with my earlier posts:

First of all, yes I am aware that you have described that you perceive the thumb to shows how we assert our inner world to the outer world.

This earlier post of yours shows how you used the word 'assert':

Lynn wrote:
Martijn_admin wrote:- index finger = water = more inner
No, because it is on radial side, in conjuction with the thumb it shows how we assert our inner desires & self / ego out to the world.

Your posts shows how you have linked the word 'assert' with your association regarding the thumb (which you describe to represent the ego that puts itself more out in the world). We can observe here that you have linked 'self-assertion' with more outward behavior... because you associate it with putting out the ego into the world.


However, that is not how I perceive 'self-assertion' at all!

Because, I do not perceive 'self-assertion' directly with outward behavior, instead I perceive 'self-assertion' as the conscious presence of a mix including: self-esteem, self-confidence, and self-control.

Yes, self-assertion can indeed become manifest via assertive behavior in social situations - and in that concext the word even became hyped by cognitive behavior therapists!!!

So I think the essence of assertiveness is that it represents a manifestation of balanced self-control based on self-esteem (featured with an awareness of one's own rights + being able to respect the rights of others), and therefore I perceive the components required to act assertive to be seated in the inner world!

And I could describe self-assertive behavior as a typical moment where the inner world (thumb side) gets more directly involved in the communication with the outer world (pinky side).

However, in daily life many people tend to associate the word 'assertiveness' with dominant behavior... but this could actually be described partly as a mis-conception, because dominant behavior can even represent the opposite of assertive self-control.

Thanks for pointing out!

Thanks!


PS. Lynn, I hope you now much better understand what is exactly going on in this discussionI Very Happy

Yeah I think I understand what is going on in this discussion (edit - decided not to say what I think is going on!)

Patti has posted numerous definitions, and I agree with her. If you are asserting your self, you are putting your inner self to the outside world.

Martijn said
We can observe here that you have linked 'self-assertion' with more outward behavior... because you associate it with putting out the ego into the world.
However, that is not how I perceive 'self-assertion' at all!
Because, I do not perceive 'self-assertion' directly with outward behavior,

then you say
And I could describe self-assertive behavior as a typical moment where the inner world (thumb side) gets more directly involved in the communication with the outer world (pinky side).

what's the difference?

apart from the point of contention we've had all along. I would say
"I could describe self-assertive behavior as a typical moment where the inner world (ulna side) gets more directly involved in the communication with the outer world (radial side)."


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