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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

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Post  Patti on Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:57 pm

You are mistaken. I also posted that I was in agreement with Judith Hipskind's charts when I uploaded them and even said to you that if you agreed with her, then we were in agreement. Below is another early quote showing my position has been consistent.

Patti on Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:42 pm

Martijn, what you seem to not recognize is the inner and outer, positive and negative pulse of the entire hand. All parts of all hands have this nature and can in the moment be described as representing a behavior that in one situation is extroverted and in another is introverted.

The ring finger is on the inner half of the vertical division. Which fits the inner nature or introversion. But, it is also at the top half of the hand which fits the outer nature or extroverted aspect.

We could argue if the ring finger is associated with being introverted or extroverted all day and not get anywhere as it has the faculties to be either.

It's funny that you think I was in agreement with Johnny in my email message as I think Johnny could tell where I was in disagreement with him which is why I think he clarified himself in the 2nd message.

I agree with Johnny's full description.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:22 pm

Patti wrote:You are mistaken. I also posted that I was in agreement with Judith Hipskind's charts when I uploaded them and even said to you that if you agreed with her, then we were in agreement. Below is another early quote showing my position has been consistent.

Patti on Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:42 pm

Martijn, what you seem to not recognize is the inner and outer, positive and negative pulse of the entire hand. All parts of all hands have this nature and can in the moment be described as representing a behavior that in one situation is extroverted and in another is introverted.

The ring finger is on the inner half of the vertical division. Which fits the inner nature or introversion. But, it is also at the top half of the hand which fits the outer nature or extroverted aspect.

We could argue if the ring finger is associated with being introverted or extroverted all day and not get anywhere as it has the faculties to be either.

It's funny that you think I was in agreement with Johnny in my email message as I think Johnny could tell where I was in disagreement with him which is why I think he clarified himself in the 2nd message.

I agree with Johnny's full description.

scratch Patti... this sounds like pure chaos to me:

You are suggesting here that I misperceived things with my observation that you described to agree with Johnny's first respons... which you actually by fact did - even though you may think that you didn't!

And then you also claim again to agree with Johnny's description...?

I can only recognize as more misleading claims... after I pointed out immediately that I was actually able to identify with nearly everything that Johnny's described in his feedback to you - because Johnny's expressed likewise ideas as presented in his book!


Because you clearly expressed earlier in this discussion that you can no longer recommend Johnny's books at all, and you explained why: because of his guidelines for the palmar quadrants!

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:26 pm


Oh...nooo!

Patti, this is really getting bizar:

First you have putten yourself in the position to say that you can longer recommend Johnny's books.

And after Johnny clearly & firmly underlined his ideas in his first response to you (Johnny said: "the area under the little (antenna) finger is relating to things 'out there' - communication, social and sexual connections, the outer world, abstraction, business and financial skills, mental energy, connecting to others."), you suggested (misleadingly!) to him that you actually agree with his guideline:

"I understand how you've described the public aspect and do agree..."


So Patti, after you suggested that you actually can agree with Johnny's ideas (while your input all the way this discussion suggests that you can not identify with Johnny's ideas at all!!!)... it is hardly surprizing that Johnny has presented you an attempt trying to explain things.

This looks like a situation where you and Johnny actually disagree about the validity of Johnny's guidelines in his book, but you agreed with his private response anyway! confused

And what is the result...???

You have given Johnny the impression that my ideas do not go along with Johnny's ideas at all... while of all participants in this discussion so far I was actually the only person who was able to identify and support Johnny's guidelines!

So, I can only conclude that you have given Johnny MISLEADING FEEDBACK, and your feedback explains directly why Johnny could do nothing else then to conclude that "you and Lynn are correct"... even though in this discussion the two of you have expressed both that you could not identity with Johnny's vocabulary & ideas for the palmar quadrants at all!


Patti, your conversation with Johnny is a clear example of mis-communication... and meanwhile your presentation makes it look like that Johnny supports the ideas that you and Lynn expressed in this discussion about Johnny's work - which is rediculous: because both of you have expressed many times that you can not identify at all with Johnny's guidelines for the palmar quadrants!

And actually, you have never supported Johnn's ideas at all... and you even expressed that you can not identify with the elemental system at all.



thinking ... And meanwhile to me this now quite looks like some kind of attempt to make it look like as if nobody in the world can identify with the title of this topic at all - which you have actually suggested quite a few times earlier in this post.

(Not sure that I am going to accept this... because I have now been confronted twice with that you have presented misleading perceptions about my position in this discussion to people who became never involved in this discussion at all)

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Post  Lynn on Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:59 pm

Patti, thank you for sharing Johnny's replies.
I especially like the bit that says
So you and Lynn are correct,

lol!

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:18 pm

Lynn wrote:Patti, thank you for sharing Johnny's replies.
I especially like the bit that says
So you and Lynn are correct,

lol!

Lynn, even though Johnny expressed that he 'thinks' you and Patti are correct... for me it obvious that he could hardly arrive at a different conclusion based on how Patti presented her feedback to Johnny (first Patti suggested to Johnny that she agrees with Johnny; and then Patti presented Johnny a description for the ulnar side which only includes the outer world - just like we see in only Johnny's guideline... and my likewise guideline(s)!

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:18 pm

Patti wrote:
(yesterday)Me:
I understand how you've described the public aspect and do agree that this is a strong part of the upper ulna quadrant's energy. ...

I can only perceive this as a misleading response to Johnny's first explanation; because by fact Patti is clearly suggesting here that she can "understand" & "agree" with Johnny's 'public aspect' description for the upper ulnar quadrant.

But this suggested 'support' is by fact not authentic at all... because Johnny's 'public/outer world' description for the upper ulnar quadrant is actually the reason why Patti expressed last week in this discussion that she can no longer recommend Johnny's work!


And then the following is actually quite hard to understand... but it is rather remarkable how Patti describes the ulnar side in terms of the 'outer world' only:


Patti wrote:
(yesterday)Me:
The place where Lynn and I have been holding our ground against Martijn is that this is where the Outer World is being taken in and processed, whereas the output to the Outer World is better described from radial aspects, in particular the thumb and upper radial quadrant. Of course the energy goes both ways in all quadrants, just to different degrees, and the upper ulnar quadrant is in the 'active' zone.

Because it appears that Patti is suggesting here that this 'outer world' description for the upper ulnar quadrant represents "the place where Lynn and I have been holding our ground..."; while Patti's 'outer world' description actually directly represents my position from the start of this discussion, e.g. where I described myself:

"... the thumb gets associated with the 'conscious' inner world (or I-side), and the pinky is associated with the 'unconscious' outer world (or You-side)"

http://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t2419-the-thumb-represents-the-inner-essence-of-man#25441


But in response to this observation - which I had already described in my first response to Patti's report about here conversation with Johnny, ... Patti is now actually denying that she has agreed with Johnny, while it appears only to be a fact that in the very first sentence of Patti's response to Johnny she explicitely suggests (misleadingly) that she does agree with his description for the upper ulnar quadrant!

And then Patti's reference to Judith Hipskind's work does not make sense to me neither, because Hipskind's chart does not relate directly to the inner vs. outer discussion (see HERE)

And then finally, regarding Patti's argument claiming that "Johnny could tell where I was in disagreement with him":


Patti wrote:It's funny that you think I was in agreement with Johnny in my email message as I think Johnny could tell where I was in disagreement with him which is why I think he clarified himself in the 2nd message.

I agree with Johnny's full description.

Patti's claim has no ground at all, because Johnny's final response is a direct result of how Patti described the upper ulnar side as: "the Outer World is being taken in and processed" - which, again, I could claim to actually represents my early description of "the 'unconscious' outer world (or You-side)".

Maybe Johnny assumed that he was responding to Patti's point of view... while he actually responded to Patti's rethorics (about: "the Outer World is being taken in and processed") that actually represent MY point of view - not Patti & Lynn's point of view at all: because Lynn basically has only used the principle: 'radial is outer world, ulnar is innner world'... which is clearly the opposite of Johnny's principle: 'ulnar is outer world, radial is inner world'!


So, it appears to me that there is a huge misunderstanding hidden in the conversation between Patti and Johnny... directly resulting from Patti's misleading responses to Johnny where she expressed her support ("...and do agree...") for Johnny's ideas - while in this public discussion Patti actually expressed that she can no longer recommend Johnny's books.

These facts shows why Patti's final misleading claim at this forum ("I agree with Johnny's full description")... is completely rediculous, because Patti has never supported any of Johnny Fincham's ideas that we have discussed in this topic at all!


PS. Beyond the fact that Patti has rejected the whole concept of how in the elemental system the 4 elements get connected with the fingers, she has actually also rejected the whole concept of how the 4 elements get connected with the 4 palmar quadrants. The proof is inside the picture below that she presented HERE:


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 39 Hand_c10


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:42 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Last name deleted)

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Post  RishiRahul on Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:37 pm

RishiRahul wrote:Palmistry, like other crafts & even other sciences & other things have their 'usefulness'.

A thought:= To LEARN the subject; specially such subjects as Palmistry, one must get rid of/ overcome the 'I' in Learning.

Trying the best to keep/retain the 'I' is going towards winning/highlighting own ego...not Truth.

This thread reminds me of:= The own perception of the self & the others perception of self.

RishiRahul

What happens when one thinks, consistently that the own perception/reality is correct & the others perceptions are not?

I may think I am good, but if the others think I am good; then i am CERTAINLY good.

Some thoughts for all....

RishiRahul.


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Post  Lynn on Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:08 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn, even though Johnny expressed that he 'thinks' you and Patti are correct... for me it obvious that he could hardly arrive at a different conclusion based on how Patti presented her feedback to Johnny (first Patti suggested to Johnny that she agrees with Johnny; and then Patti presented Johnny a description for the ulnar side which only includes the outer world - just like we see in only Johnny's guideline... and my likewise guideline(s)![/color]

I saw Patti's original email to Johnny. She made it clear that she and I didn't agree with upper ulna as outer and public. Patti is unable to reply here at the moment, but she gave me permission to share her original questions to Johnny.
Patti said -
"Hi Johnny,
Long time since we've communicated but I feel like I've been in touch for days and days since the discussion at Martijn's forum has mentioned you and quoted from your books everyday.
I know Lynn wrote and asked the same question, but your answer didn't really help make things clear.
Martijn is claiming that you see the upper ulnar side of the hand as outer and public and the radial upper quadrant as private. He is basing this on you and Dukes. He is pointing out that your work is contradictory to Christopher's.
Could you reply and let me/us know where you stand on these quadrants. I disagree with the idea (as does Lynn) that the little and ring finger and quadrant relate to things more public than the upper radial quadrant. You, Dukes and Birla seem to think so."

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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:15 am

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Sucom wrote:
Patti wrote:
Sucom wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:
2) I can identify with most of Johnny's innovative vocabulary, apart from a couple of words on the quadrants.
3) Oh yeah, I forgot a word or two in a book that I read 15 years ago. tch,silly me Oh...nooo!

Just because I disagree with some of the things you/Johnny/Dukes said, I don't see it as me being confused or in trouble.


Lynn, those 'couple of words' and those 'word or two' .. actually make a connecting-pair.

And Johnny's use of the words 'outer world', 'public stage' and 'world stage' for the upper ulnar quadrant is a direct violation of your early adopted (classic) principle - describing: radial side = outer world!!

Sorry, I don't see how can one deny this obvious contradiction.

Actually, correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe that Lynn made a comment about this, suggesting that this was a somewhat one sided view of this area of the hand. I don't believe she agreed with this in whole. My own thoughts are that it is just one aspect of this area - every area comprises of two ends of the same pole.

Sue, these are my thoughts exactly! I just looked in Johnny's book and thought that he had chosen one side to present and ignored the other polarity for the same areas. Which actually makes his definitions only partially accurate.

Partially accurate - Yes, I would agree. Using my own terminology from my previous post, this idea is using just one end of the pole and ignoring the other!

Sue, I have no idea what 'polarity' you have in mind. Can you specify?


NOTICE: Johnny's principles are quite similar to Dukes' principles regarding the quadrants. Jennifer has not writting anything about the quadrants inside her book. Christopher's quadrant principles is where much of the troubles in this discussion started.

Because of what has come out in this discussion I can no longer recommend Johnny's book "The Spellbinding Power of Palmistry" as a good book for learning how to read hands. I will however suggest it for those who are already experienced and established in the basics and won't be confused by the one-sided nature of some aspects. I never liked Duke's book (although at the time I got it, it was a gift and I was so happy to have such an expensive palmistry book) and had less respect for it after hearing about his reputation as a liar.

I am glad that I took the initiative to write Johnny and ask him directly his viewpoint about the quadrants. I wrote and asked two other authors that are mentioned in Martijn's graphic (one of those, Christopher, already responded here on the forum).

Johnny's reply shows that the basic information that Lynn has worked with since her C. Society days is still valid and acceptable, and there is no real contradiction in their approaches when you read all that Johnny has written here in his reply. (thank you Johnny if you're reading this!)

Sue had also mentioned the missing polarity which is important to consider to understand the yin/yang balance to everything.

Of course I will continue to recommend Johnny's books.



Inner/Outer on top of Outer/Inner - A Definite Reality and an Illusion of Moving in Two Directions at the Same Time


Can you see the triangles turning clockwise and counterclockwise at the same time?

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 39 Movmerkaba2
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Post  Lynn on Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:25 am

Regarding the air element, Martijn has focussed on the word 'public' as used by Dukes once, and by Johnny for the air quadrant. For weeks I have been meaning to post this excerpt from "Practical Cheirology" by R.Cigman / T. Dukes (1983) which talks about the more hidden aspects of air.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 39 Cigman11

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:38 pm

Lynn wrote:Regarding the air element, Martijn has focussed on the word 'public' as used by Dukes once, and by Johnny for the air quadrant. For weeks I have been meaning to post this excerpt from "Practical Cheirology" by R.Cigman / T. Dukes (1983) which talks about the more hidden aspects of air.

Lynn, the reason why I focussed all attention regarding the elemental system on the word 'public'... is because the meaning of this word by principle directly relates to the 'outer world'.

Both Dukes & Fincham associate the fire and air quadrant with 'public'; and Johnny explicitly confirmed that the ulnar side of the hand can best be associated with the 'outer world'.

So, I think this confirms that ulnar fingers can be associated with the 'outer world' (because the pinky and ring finger represent the most 'public' fingers)... and the radial fingers with the 'inner world'.

Johnny clearly confirmed this when he said: "And the Radial is the inner, known, familiar, measured and explored parts of ourselves, ...".

And thus the role of the word 'public' is essential... especially in the perspective of the title of this topc!


PS. The association regarding fire & air with 'outer/outward directed' has also been recognized in the field of psychology, because fire & air became associated with 'extrovered' (+ earth & water became associated with 'introverted') see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-factor_models_of_personality#Table_of_Theories_and_Instruments_using_Extroversion_and_People-Task-orientation

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Post  Patti on Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:26 pm

wave flower

I've been thinking about some aspects of this discussion in a conscious way when I'm doing readings. Especially in regards to public.

It is very common for someone who has come for a reading to ask - how are my children?, my husband?, my mom, dad?, and boss. What do others think of me?

In the past I tried hard to look for features that gave those answers - consistently and with other confirming features, but have yet to find anything with such reliability. The most common is associating not only gender and number of children, but their well being, to the children lines - and we all know these lines are not reliable.

All of a person's hands relate only to themselves and their view and reaction to the world.

No one can read anything public in a person's hands. They can however see how willing and able this person is to expose themselves to, or be influenced by, the public. Yet, just as inner is all over the hands, we would also read outer all over the hands. Just to different degrees.

Active energy is different than public energy. So to clarify, when I said I understood where Johnny was coming from with his 'out there' perspective, it is because the top part of the hand is the most out there... touching and manipulating - and I said that was the reason I could agree and then I pointed out where I disagreed. The out there is only part of the story. We can read a person's hands entirely and never even mention out there as we are reading about the owner of the hands. If we speak of public it is only a portion of the inner self on display. The surface image of something much deeper. Like a lagoon in the middle of the sea - the face is just a tiny portion of the whole supporting structure that is hidden beneath the surface.

This public facade is found in all parts of the hand, too. More so on the radial side as this side represents qualities more consistently on public display. Such as presentation, appearance and grooming - but even as I write these things, in the back of my mind comes the counter aspect from the ulnar side of the hand. Appearance and grooming would be a radial aspect, but the sense of style and presentation would come from a more personal part of self. Do they go with the crowd or stand alone in their image - we look for things on the radial side such as separated head and life lines, and on the ulnar side we confirm with a stand alone little finger.

'Public' is not a good keyword to use for parts of the hand. 'Out-there' is better as it refers to an in-here perspective of being/looking out-there.



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Post  Patti on Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:37 pm

Johnny clearly confirmed this when he said: "And the Radial is the inner, known, familiar, measured and explored parts of ourselves, ...".

I would interpret this as the areas where our conscious awareness is. Where we are familiar with who we are and how we present ourselves. The radial side would be how we think others see us as it's how we see ourselves.

The ulnar side is hidden - and much of it even from ourselves. It is not the "known, familiar, measured and explored parts of ourselves" it is the inner aspect that we seek to understand and journey into.

Both sides are inner.

The pattern of 'squares within squares' that I have described on people who are seekers of self awareness, reach out from the radial to the ulnar sides of the hands.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:43 pm


Lynn, there is another clear reason why the radial side of the hand should best be recognized to represent the inner world:

The capacity for self awareness (= the capacity for introspection) is in the field of hand reading usually associated with the index finger (see e.g. the works of: E.D. Campbell, G.S. Birla, E. Sprong, J. Fincham, J Saint-Germain).

And... we can actually see this confirmed by what we know of primates and their hands. Interestingly, most primates do not have the ability to recognize themselves in the so-called 'mirror test' - which is illustrative for their lack of self awareness (NOTICE: no doubt that all primates have consciousness, but self-awareness should be recognized here as a higher state of personal consciousness).

Now, if we take a look at the hands of non-human primates, then we can see that the radial side of the human hand is much more developed than the radial side of the primate hand. For example: only in the human hand are the external thumb phalanges longer than the pinky!


And... this could also explain a rather typical difference between males and females regarding their interests. Because since the radial side of the hand is typically better developed in females (compared to their ulnar side of the hand - for example: females tend to have higher 2D:4D digit ratio than males), this appears to explain why females tend to have more interest for the inner world.

An illustrative exampe: during my studies in psychology & hand analysis I have noticed that in both fields only about 10% of the students tend to be represented by males.


All these tendencies indicate that the capacity for self awareness is most likely to be found on the radial side of the hand... and obviously thus the capacity for introspection of the inner world can best be linked with the radial side of the hand!


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Post  Patti on Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:07 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:


All these tendencies indicate that the capacity for self awareness is most likely to be found on the radial side of the hand... and obviously thus the capacity for introspection of the inner world can best be linked with the radial side of the hand!



What this actually seems to confirm is that the radial side is the side that is most conscious and is aware of self. It is like the 'ego' personality looking at itself. The "I am" of self. But... the self/soul/inner being that is abstractly "listening" to that Ego find itself is represented best by the ulnar side of the hand.

Women with more developed radial features are simply better at being self aware. "Know thyself" is supposed to be the key to life.
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Post  Lynn on Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:22 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:[color=darkred]Lynn, the reason why I focussed all attention regarding the elemental system on the word 'public'... is because the meaning of this word by principle directly relates to the 'outer world'.

Both Dukes & Fincham associate the fire and air quadrant with 'public'; and Johnny explicitly confirmed that the ulnar side of the hand can best be associated with the 'outer world'.

Why do you ignore the fact that Dukes also says that air is a symbol of the world that is invisible, hidden; air consciousness resides 'behind the scenes', thought, (inner world).

Dukes does not say that the fire and air quadrant are 'public'.
He says that fire and air elements are masculine, active and public in import (yang).
The air quadrant is the active unconscious.
The third largest quadrant is the public face or image, regardless of which element it is ruled by.

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Post  Patti on Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:21 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn, there is another clear reason why the radial side of the hand should best be recognized to represent the inner world:

The capacity for self awareness (= the capacity for introspection) is in the field of hand reading usually associated with the index finger (see e.g. the works of: E.D. Campbell, G.S. Birla, E. Sprong, J. Fincham, J Saint-Germain).

And... we can actually see this confirmed by what we know of primates and their hands. Interestingly, most primates do not have the ability to recognize themselves in the so-called 'mirror test' - which is illustrative for their lack of self awareness (NOTICE: no doubt that all primates have consciousness, but self-awareness should be recognized here as a higher state of personal consciousness).

Now, if we take a look at the hands of non-human primates, then we can see that the radial side of the human hand is much more developed than the radial side of the primate hand. For example: only in the human hand are the external thumb phalanges longer than the pinky!


And... this could also explain a rather typical difference between males and females regarding their interests. Because since the radial side of the hand is typically better developed in females (compared to their ulnar side of the hand - for example: females tend to have higher 2D:4D digit ratio than males), this appears to explain why females tend to have more interest for the inner world.

An illustrative exampe: during my studies in psychology & hand analysis I have noticed that in both fields only about 10% of the students tend to be represented by males.


All these tendencies indicate that the capacity for self awareness is most likely to be found on the radial side of the hand... and obviously thus the capacity for introspection of the inner world can best be linked with the radial side of the hand!


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 39 Primate-hands-family-tree

Both Walter Kidd "The Sense of Touch" and Cummins & Midlo "Palmar & Plantar Dermatoglyphics in Primates" describe the hands and feet as best designed for the function and lifestyle of the animal.

You suggest that the lack of 'self-awareness' via a mirror test as related to 2D:4D relates to a lack of self-awareness. Perhaps instead of 'self-awareness' it's about the more recent discovery - that of "trust".

The emphasis on the ulnar side of the hand would more likely relate to aggression first, trust no-one (even someone who looks like you and mimics your movements).
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Post  Patti on Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:30 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:


The capacity for self awareness (= the capacity for introspection) is in the field of hand reading usually associated with the index finger (see e.g. the works of: E.D. Campbell, G.S. Birla, E. Sprong, J. Fincham, J Saint-Germain).




The index fingertip has more nerve endings than any other part of the entire hand. It is the most active and aware part of the hand. More signals are sent to and from this location than any other part of the hand. It is more in contact with the outer world because of this.

The capacity for self-awareness is different than being self-aware. Capacity is about a measurement or a propensity to have an ability or capability. Introspection would be a looking inward. It is from the most conscious section of the radial side that we introspect into the inner worlds of the ulnar and proximal sections of the hand.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:18 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:[color=darkred]Lynn, the reason why I focussed all attention regarding the elemental system on the word 'public'... is because the meaning of this word by principle directly relates to the 'outer world'.

Both Dukes & Fincham associate the fire and air quadrant with 'public'; and Johnny explicitly confirmed that the ulnar side of the hand can best be associated with the 'outer world'.

Why do you ignore the fact that Dukes also says that air is a symbol of the world that is invisible, hidden; air consciousness resides 'behind the scenes', thought, (inner world).

Dukes does not say that the fire and air quadrant are 'public'.
He says that fire and air elements are masculine, active and public in import (yang).
The air quadrant is the active unconscious.
The third largest quadrant is the public face or image, regardless of which element it is ruled by.

Well Lynn... I don't think that I am ignoring anything, because Dukes actually writes (in the perspective of the quadrants):

"Fire and air are masculine, active and public in import (yang)."

Dukes literally describes here how air (+ fire) is oriented at the public world - that is why uses the words 'public in import'; and he also describes it as a 'yang' principle (= directed outward).

Now, regarding the mental processes involved with air, these are actually oriented at the public word (the outer world)... there are mental processes involved regarding both sides of the hand (ulnar and radial), because this is also indicated by the location of the air line: one could say that in general the mental processes origin at the radial/inner side of the hand, but these mental process also enter de ulnar/outer side of the hand.

So, I think one can not derive much from the principle that there are mental processes involved with air - because the nature of these mental processes can be described as representing 'intellectual' and/or 'linguistic' forms and shapes, which serve the purpose to get expressed in various types of communication.


Dukes words are clearly in line with the principles described by Fincham's various email feedback: "the ulnar half of the palm is both far away, exotic, foreign, the unknown, the outer world" and "the Radial is the inner".

So, I think the essence here is that I observe that Dukes & Fincham are both using the principle 'radial is inner, ulnar is outer'... as a starting point to proceed!

But most important... I think it is pretty obvious that this essential principle used by Dukes & Fincham resonates very well with the title of this topic: because the thumb is located at the radial/inner side of the hand.


PS. Beyond the element air:

In line with the air-related example regarding the head line... one can also use a likewise principle for the earth line/life line (Dukes speaks of the vitality line); because the earth line ORIGINS and ENDS at the radial/inner side of the hand!!!

The principle is rather simple here: the word 'vitality' can best be understood as the dynamic (inner) life force that is moving inside our body; Wikipedia describes the 'vitality' of an organism as follows:

"A living organism experiences its own life [vitality] from the internal dynamics of its own being, something not observable from outside."

So, the location of the 'vitality line' confirms that the radial side of the hand can best be described and understood as related to the 'inner world'.

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Post  Patti on Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:42 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Now, regarding the mental processes involved with air, these are actually oriented at the public word (the outer world)... there are mental processes involved regarding both sides of the hand (ulnar and radial), because this is also indicated by the location of the air line: one could say that in general the mental processes origin at the radial/inner side of the hand, but these mental process also enter de ulnar/outer side of the hand.


scratch The thinking hand? Laughing
I think that thinking has to do with neurons. Signals are coming and going from all parts of the hands, in and out, positive and negative, continuously.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:22 pm


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Post  Patti on Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:56 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 39 Thumb-46

I don't think "you" can be in anyone's hands. Only "I". Anything "you" is filtered through the senses and awareness of "I". Martijn, can you support your theory of "you" being the ulnar section of the hand other than by palmistry books? Have the authors of the work you have chosen for your references presented any valid research to support their hypothesis?

Just last year research revealed altruism in the brain. Research shows activity in the brain when unselfish and seemingly personally non-beneficial acts took place. The areas of the brain that fire up when these acts take place are ones that are rewarding and pleasurable. It basically is related to what feels good. In reverse acting in ways that causes discomfort to others fires brain centers that relate to appropriate personal reactions. Related to if it makes me feel bad, don't do it and if it makes me feel good do it.

Although this primitive behavior likely relates to bonds between tribes and families and the survival of the tribe over an individual (the monkeys and mice that went hungry rather than hurt a fellow species member - in the article linked below), the biological mechanism that allowed this behavior is not based on "you" but on "I".

http://www.livescience.com/25860-altruism-brain-cells-found.html

The monkeys consistently preferred doling out juice to other monkeys over giving nothing. When the researchers replaced the second monkey with another bottle of juice, the monkeys showed no preference for dispensing juice, showing that they were motivated by the reward to the other monkey.

A brain region called the orbitofrontal cortex, which is known to play a role in reward processing, fired when monkeys got juice squirts for themselves.

"The orbitofrontal cortex seems to be all about your personal reward. It's egocentric," Platt said.

Intriguingly, however, some neurons in a region called the anterior cingulate gyrus fired when the monkey got its own juice, while others fired when monkeys gave their neighbors juice.

That same brain region has been implicated in other social processes. For instance, a person's anterior cingulate gyrus fires when he watches his romantic partner get pinched, for instance, Platt said.


It would seem reasonable however, to assume that this praying mantis lacks this aspect in its tiny brain.

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Post  Patti on Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:31 pm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/27/AR2007052701056.html

If It Feels Good to Be Good, It Might Be Only Natural

"The results -- many of them published just in recent months -- are showing, unexpectedly, that many aspects of morality appear to be hard-wired in the brain, most likely the result of evolutionary processes that began in other species.

No one can say whether giraffes and lions experience moral qualms in the same way people do because no one has been inside a giraffe's head, but it is known that animals can sacrifice their own interests: One experiment found that if each time a rat is given food, its neighbor receives an electric shock, the first rat will eventually forgo eating.

What the new research is showing is that morality has biological roots -- such as the reward center in the brain that lit up in Grafman's experiment -- that have been around for a very long time.

The more researchers learn, the more it appears that the foundation of morality is empathy. Being able to recognize -- even experience vicariously -- what another creature is going through was an important leap in the evolution of social behavior. And it is only a short step from this awareness to many human notions of right and wrong, says Jean Decety, a neuroscientist at the University of Chicago."


When you think about how doing 'good deeds' causes pleasurable responses in the brain and how this is related to empathy, it's important to look at where empathy is interpreted in the hands. The Ring of Solomon and Empathy lines are found under the index finger, the Influence lines radiate from the thumb out to the life line and beyond. These are on the radial side of the hand. On the ulnar we have the Healer's Marks and occasionally there is the Line of Intuition. These features are not present in all hands.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:55 pm


Patti, the context inside the picture shows how to understand the words 'you-side':

For example, as you know... it's a generally accepted idea in the field of hand reading that themes that relate to communication, relationships & marriage tend to get associated with the ulnar side of the hand - usually specified to the pinky & the relationship lines.

And because communication, relationships & marriage always requires at least one other person (a 'you') to get involved, it should not be that hard to understand why some authors have described the ulnar side of the hand as the 'you-side'.

This example should also serve to explain why some other authors have described the ulnar side of the hand to represent how we relate to the 'outer world'.


PS. The concept of the 'you-side'/'outer world' does not implicate, nor suggest, that there is literally some kind of 'you' or 'outer world' that gets inside the hand (as suggested by your question). The concept only describes how the radial side more represents how we relate to ourselves (in terms of our inner world/personal world/family), and the ulnar side more represents how we relate to others (in terms of our outer world/public world/relationships).





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Post  Patti on Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:36 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti, the context inside the picture shows how to understand the words 'you-side':

For example, as you know... it's a generally accepted idea in the field of hand reading that themes that relate to communication, relationships & marriage tend to get associated with the ulnar side of the hand - usually specified to the pinky & the relationship lines.

And because communication, relationships & marriage always requires at least one other person (a 'you') to get involved, it should not be that hard to understand why some authors have described the ulnar side of the hand as the 'you-side'.

This example should also serve to explain why some other authors have described the ulnar side of the hand to represent how we relate to the 'outer world'.


PS. The concept of the 'you-side'/'outer world' does not implicate, nor suggest, that there is literally some kind of 'you' or 'outer world' that gets inside the hand (as suggested by your question). The concept only describes how the radial side more represents how we relate to ourselves (in terms of our inner world/personal world/family), and the ulnar side more represents how we relate to others (in terms of our outer world/public world/relationships).



Yes, the marriage line is on the ulnar side of the hand. Which I read as the ability to open one self up to bonding and connecting. But, we have the family ring at the base of the thumb, on the radial side. The relationship markings on the ulnar side are more related to private and more personal interactions such as friendships and intimacy, but the radial side's markings relate to parents, siblings, extended family and people who influence ones life.



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