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Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Lynn on Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:29 pm

Dukes & active/passive, impression/expression, outward/inward .....

Chinese Hand Analysis:

P78 fig 25 B Active is thumb side, passive is ulna side.
P79 final paragraph The active area is always on the side of the finger facing the thumb.

P116 2nd sentence - When the epicentre occurs nearer the thumb side of the phalange, the qualities of that finger, on the mental level, seek external expression.

P116, fig 43 Expression - thumb side, impression - ulna side

P118 - final 2 sentences - If the loop points towards the thumb side, it indicates outwardly directed desire for comfort, pleasure & artistic or cultural satisfaction. When the loop is pointing inward, it heightens the subjects physical responses.

(Edit) I have also found in Jenny Hirsch's book "the Healing Craft of Handreading":
"The thumb side is the radial side, which represents the outer and conscious self, and the baby finger side is called the ulnar side, representing the inner, unconscious self."



Last edited by Lynn on Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:23 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : added quote)

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Lynn on Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:36 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:Yes, that could be described as a small inconsistency in the perspective of the other 3 'hand' picture examples on page 47 and 48... though formally one could also say that the letter R only serves as an example and does not lead to any problems regarding how the apply the principles.

By labelling it R, it completely changes the quadrant order, which is a bit more than a 'small inconsistency'. Wink

AHA! No, sorry I have made a mistake!!
(quick Martijn get the fireworks out! Razz )
It IS a right hand because quadrants were always worked out on handprints! geek

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:11 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:Yes, that could be described as a small inconsistency in the perspective of the other 3 'hand' picture examples on page 47 and 48... though formally one could also say that the letter R only serves as an example and does not lead to any problems regarding how the apply the principles.

By labelling it R, it completely changes the quadrant order, which is a bit more than a 'small inconsistency'. Wink

AHA! No, sorry I have made a mistake!!
(quick Martijn get the fireworks out! Razz )
It IS a right hand because quadrants were always worked out on handprints! geek

lol!

Ah right... Dukes told his students to draw a line around the handprint, etc., though he didn't mention that those picture examples represent handprints.

Anyway Lynn... applause you managed to find a crystal clear mistake in his writings - not sure that any of the 'inconsistancies' that I pointed out can compete with the one you spotted!


PS. Still hoping to see you present an example inside the elemental works that could be recognized as support for your radial ulnar view regarding 'active' vs. 'passive' Exclamation

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Lynn on Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:23 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:PS. Still hoping to see you present an example inside the elemental works that could be recognized as support for your radial ulnar view regarding 'active' vs. 'passive' Exclamation [/color]

I already did. Look 3 posts up ^
"Dukes & active/passive, impression/expression, outward/inward ...."

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:51 pm

Lynn wrote:Dukes & active/passive, impression/expression, outward/inward .....

Chinese Hand Analysis:

P78 fig 25 B Active is thumb side, passive is ulna side.
P79 final paragraph The active area is always on the side of the finger facing the thumb.

P116 2nd sentence - When the epicentre occurs nearer the thumb side of the phalange, the qualities of that finger, on the mental level, seek external expression.

P116, fig 43 Expression - thumb side, impression - ulna side

P118 - final 2 sentences - If the loop points towards the thumb side, it indicates outwardly directed desire for comfort, pleasure & artistic or cultural satisfaction. When the loop is pointing inward, it heightens the subjects physical responses.

(Edit) I have also found in Jenny Hirsch's book "the Healing Craft of Handreading":
"The thumb side is the radial side, which represents the outer and conscious self, and the baby finger side is called the ulnar side, representing the inner, unconscious self."


Thanks Lynn, yes, I recognize how those principles are also used in how Johnny describes the fingerprints.

But are you sture that this principle also being used for the 5 fingers relative to each other?


NOTICE: I am asking because the topography of the palm (the 4 elements are divided over the 4 quadrants connecting with each other) is very different compared to the fingers (4 elements are presented next to each other).

For me it is not obvious at all that the vertical division applied to individual fingers should also be applied to the combination of the 5 fingers... unless it is explicit described as a principle. Because this principle for the individual fingers is also not applied to the palm: based on the ELEMENTS the distal part of the palm is described as the 'active' part of the hand because Fire and Air are considered as 'active'!

And in line with the Yin-Yang principle used for the palm... it would make sense to say that the fire finger (ring finger) and air finger (pinky) are the most active fingers.

After all, this is also the principle that Johnny uses to describe the ring finger as the 'public face' (social expression) finger: the "peacock's feather''; and the pinky as the communication finger: the 'antenna'. Both fingers are associated with (social) actities.

While the middle finger (the 'wall' finger - associated with psychological stability, values and balance) and the index finger is literally described as the finger which represents "the relationship with yourself". Both do not sound very 'active' at all to me... and actually, Johnny's vocabulary & descriptions clearly point in the direction that the index and middle finger more relate to the passive principle... just like is indicated by the Yin-Yang philosophy: earth + water = passive.

And in Jennifer's work I see exactly the same tendency:
- Long air finger (pinky) = impersonal identity, thinking & communication = active
- Long fire finger (ring finger) = extra-personal identity, creative expression, interest in arts & sports = active
- Long earth finger (middle finger) = order, convention, soberty, traditional value system = passive
- Long water finger (index finger) = personal identity, authority, controlling, idealism = more passive than active

Regarding the quotes that you presented from one of Jennifer's other books... I think this actually relates again only to perspective of the individual finges; but she is not explicit describing that the thumb is more active than the pinky - because only that would allow you to consider the thumb as more active than the pinky!

Have I managed to explain this well?


Lynn, I hope these examples will help you understand why I think that the principles used for the individual fingers (and fingerprints), are not meant to be used for the palm nor for the fingers relative to each other. Simply because the Yin-Yang principles indicate that this is not possible at all.

Therefore I really have to ask you once again to find a passage in one of the books which explicit illustrates that the ulnar-radial principle regarding active and passive can be used for the 5 fingers relative to each other

I hope this request of mine make sense?


wave

PS. By the way... also remember, the archetype of Mercurius is known as probably the most acitve archetype of all Roman planetary archetypes... and Mercurius is the fastest moving planet in the solar system. So, in that perspective it would not make much sense to associate that finger with more 'passive' than active. And I think the Elemental Chirology presents the philosophic tools to explain this very clearly!

I hope you recognize that... my focus is on taking the principles precisely in the shape of the guideline presented by the authors - of course that is only when the principles make a consistent system together. But it appears that one should not try to explorate principles to other dimensions of the hand when this results in problems or inconsistencies - such as the examples that I have described in this post.

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Lynn on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:08 am

just a quick reply to let you know Martijn, I edited where you quoted me to add the quote from Jen's book that I had added later. I assume that is the quote you are referring to when you wrote
Regarding the quotes that you presented from one of Jennifer's other books... I think this actually relates again only to perspective of the individual finges; but she is not explicit describing that the thumb is more active than the pinky - because only that would allow you to consider the thumb as more active than the pinky!
No, her quote "The thumb side is the radial side, which represents the outer and conscious self, and the baby finger side is called the ulnar side, representing the inner, unconscious self." related to the ulna/radial division of the whole hand on her hand chart.

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:34 am

Lynn wrote:just a quick reply to let you know Martijn, I edited where you quoted me to add the quote from Jen's book that I had added later. I assume that is the quote you are referring to when you wrote
Regarding the quotes that you presented from one of Jennifer's other books... I think this actually relates again only to perspective of the individual finges; but she is not explicit describing that the thumb is more active than the pinky - because only that would allow you to consider the thumb as more active than the pinky!
No, her quote "The thumb side is the radial side, which represents the outer and conscious self, and the baby finger side is called the ulnar side, representing the inner, unconscious self." related to the ulna/radial division of the whole hand on her hand chart.

Well Lynn, the words only suggest that Jennifer is describing a likewise perspective as seen in Dukes work on page 80 (but your comment suggest that Jennifer has used the principle in a more wider perspective... which could very well make sense if she adopted Chirstopher's principle!).

Again, I already have pointed out to the descriptions presented by Jennifer for the indivual fingers. So, when Jennifer is applying the ulnar-radial principle regarding passive vs active for the individual finger to the full spectrum of the fingers... I think she could be making a likewise mistake like Christopher did: that would actually result in an inconsistency withing Jennifer's frame work.

Because according the Yin-Yang philosophy: the Yang fingers (air = pinky + fire = ring finger) get associated with 'active'... and the Yin-fingers (earth = middle finger + water = index finger) are associated with 'passive'; and for the individual fingers one can use the principle like is described on page 80 in Dukes work.


Lynn, I hope you recognize how I only try to avoid using 'transformed' principles that actually violate the (earlier adopted) philosophic principles.

Anyway, Lynn I can confirm that you appear to have found in Jennifer's work confirmation for the principle that you have adopted yourself. But it's hard for me to judge the exact implications without actually seeing how she had presented that aspect of her earlier work - though I have already described that in probably leads to an inconsistency in her work... so she might be lucky that she didn't put it inside her book! Maybe it was a well-considered conscious choice for not including that in her book...? Wink

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Lynn on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:50 am

it's hard for me to judge the exact implications without actually seeing how she had presented that aspect of her earlier work

It's a hand chart drawing the quadrants. The thumb side of the hand is labelled radial, conscious, outer. The pinky side of the hand is labelled Ulnar, Unconscious, inner.
The full paragraph is "The hand is divided vertically by drawing a line from the middle of the tip of the Earth finger to the mid point of the base of the hand. The thumb side is the radial side, which represents the outer and conscious self, and the baby finger side is called the ulnar side, representing the inner, unconscious self."

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Sucom on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:46 am

Just a thought here.

In Chinese culture, Yin and Yang represent the two opposite principles in nature. Yin characterizes the feminine or negative nature of things and yang stands for the masculine or positive side. Yin and yang are in pairs, such as the moon and the sun, female and male, dark and bright, cold and hot, passive and active, etc. But yin and yang are not static or just two separated things. The nature of yin yang lies in interchange and interplay of the two components

If yin yang is found in pairs, could this possibly suggest that each finger represents both yin and yang? For instance, while a long air finger suggests active external communication, a short air finger suggests the opposite, that is, difficulty in active communication. In the same way, while the long fire finger suggests active creative, external expression, the shorter fire finger suggests the opposite, that is, difficulty in active, creative, external expression.

For example, Johnny’s mention of the peacock can surely only apply to the LONG ring finger. This could not be said of the short ring finger. Yet both interpretations of ease and difficulty of external expression are offered for the very same finger. And both these interpretations are opposites, as found in the yin yang principle.

I’m not entirely sure why Martijn is assuming that yin yang HAS to appear on either side of the hand, except for the assumption that as right is opposite to left, then this must relate to the yin yang principle. This just doesn't make sense to me at all. What about long being opposite to short? Surely yin yang could theoretically be applied to each of the fingers individually?

If yin and yang are not static or two separated things, and the nature of both lies in the interchange and interplay of the two components, then again couldn’t this link both yin and yang to each finger individually?

I'm putting this forward as a mere possibility.
Edit: I am aware that Martijn is using the elemental system to verify his results, so perhaps his chart is for use within the elemental system only, in which case, disregard my thoughts. However, the title of this thread suggests otherwise and that it could relate to all systems, even though most of the discussion is around the elemental system.


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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:23 pm

Lynn wrote:
it's hard for me to judge the exact implications without actually seeing how she had presented that aspect of her earlier work

It's a hand chart drawing the quadrants. The thumb side of the hand is labelled radial, conscious, outer. The pinky side of the hand is labelled Ulnar, Unconscious, inner.
The full paragraph is "The hand is divided vertically by drawing a line from the middle of the tip of the Earth finger to the mid point of the base of the hand. The thumb side is the radial side, which represents the outer and conscious self, and the baby finger side is called the ulnar side, representing the inner, unconscious self."

Thanks Lynn, yes... I think Jennifer's writing there suggest that she even one step further than your own view. Because you described that you only use that view for the palm; Jennifer's description suggests that she is using it for the fingers as well.

Jennifer's descriptions for the individual fingers are in line with the Yin-Yang principles... and thus this results in a clear contradictin with this guideline of hers (because based on the Yin-Yang philosophy the water and earth finger + the 2 lower palmar quadrants get associated with more inward directed qualities... and this is confirmed by her descriptions). She is probably not aware of this contradiction.

When we compare Jennifer's writings with Johnny's writings there is not much difference for the individual fingers (except the vocabulary); however, Johnny's vocabulary for especially the two upper palmar quadrants suggests that he is using there exactly the reversed principle of the principle that Jennifer appears to be using for the full hand - which I perceive as problematic: I have described how it results in an inconsistency when that principle is combined with the Yin-Yang principles applied to the individual fingers and the quadrants of the palm.

During this discussion I noticed that the Yin-Yang philosophy is an excellent tool to sort things out regarding the principles being used. But I think that by now you are probably very aware of my findings.


Thanks!

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:03 pm

Sucom wrote:Just a thought here.

In Chinese culture, Yin and Yang represent the two opposite principles in nature. Yin characterizes the feminine or negative nature of things and yang stands for the masculine or positive side. Yin and yang are in pairs, such as the moon and the sun, female and male, dark and bright, cold and hot, passive and active, etc. But yin and yang are not static or just two separated things. The nature of yin yang lies in interchange and interplay of the two components

If yin yang is found in pairs, could this possibly suggest that each finger represents both yin and yang? For instance, while a long air finger suggests active external communication, a short air finger suggests the opposite, that is, difficulty in active communication. In the same way, while the long fire finger suggests active creative, external expression, the shorter fire finger suggests the opposite, that is, difficulty in active, creative, external expression.

For example, Johnny’s mention of the peacock can surely only apply to the LONG ring finger. This could not be said of the short ring finger. Yet both interpretations of ease and difficulty of external expression are offered for the very same finger. And both these interpretations are opposites, as found in the yin yang principle.

I’m not entirely sure why Martijn is assuming that yin yang HAS to appear on either side of the hand, except for the assumption that as right is opposite to left, then this must relate to the yin yang principle. This just doesn't make sense to me at all. What about long being opposite to short? Surely yin yang could theoretically be applied to each of the fingers individually?

If yin and yang are not static or two separated things, and the nature of both lies in the interchange and interplay of the two components, then again couldn’t this link both yin and yang to each finger individually?

I'm putting this forward as a mere possibility.
Edit: I am aware that Martijn is using the elemental system to verify his results, so perhaps his chart is for use within the elemental system only, in which case, disregard my thoughts. However, the title of this thread suggests otherwise and that it could relate to all systems, even though most of the discussion is around the elemental system.


Hi Sue,

I can follow & support all your observations regarding the dynamics between Yin & Yang.

But I don't know why you think that I assume "that yin yang HAS to appear on either side of the hand"; I am not aware that I have explicitly made such a statement... but I do recognize that this is actually the logical consquence of how the 4 elements are connected with Yin & Yang in Elemental Chirology.

Yes, I can confirm that the chart that I have created is more or less a direct result of the principles used in Elemental Chirology (though being aware that Lynn has disputed how I did this).

By the way, let's be ware that in the field of hand reading there are actually three approaches available for applying the Yin-Yang concepts 'active' and 'passive' to the hand:

- Approach 1: fingers = active, palm = passive
- Approach 2: radial side = active, ulnar side = passive

Elemental Chirology describes the alternative 3rd approach (resulting from the palmar quadrants that play a key-role in Elemental Chirology):

- Approach 3: fingers + upper palm = active, lower palm = passive

NOTICE: The fundamentals of this approach 3 perfectly make sense in the perspective of how the elements are used for the quadrants of the palm; because the upper 2 palmar qudrants represent the Yang principle in the palm (= more active than the two lower palmar quadrant).


thinking By the way, it is interesting to see that combining all 3 approaches sugests that the index finger is the most 'active' part of the hand (it is also more active that the thumb because in approach 3 only the upper half of the thumb is described as 'active').

Quite an interesting fascinating result in the perspective of my summary (in response to one of Lynn's post) indicating that index finger is probably indeed the most often used finger.

However, caution is required here... because one should be aware that this 'theoretic' observation is actually the result of various approaches used in different hand reading.


PS. Sue, regarding your comments about Johnny vocabulary: he also describes the ring finger as representing the 'Persona' finger... which directly show why his association with the peacock can be used for normal- and short ring finger length as well. But I understand your point: it's indeed more easy to associate a long ring finger with a peacock.

(In the perspective of the peacock/persona finger, I could add that it is actually much more difficult to understand why the ring finger gets associated with 'passive'... as suggested by approach 1 - where the full ulnar side of the hand gets associated with 'passive'!)

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Sucom on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:10 pm

Hi Martijn

Thanks for replying. I wasn’t sure if my post made too much sense because I wrote it very late last night when I really shouldn’t have been thinking about anything at all!

I don’t know why I assumed that you had suggested that the radial side of the hand represents yin and the ulna side of the hand represents yang. Perhaps I was reading your mind? Or from a more rational point of view, perhaps it was an obvious conclusion from what has been written so far. I think the latter in this case.

Without a doubt, your chart is very much based on the elemental system and I have to confess that I know very little about this system personally. I sense that Lynn may feel that you are misunderstanding or perhaps even misinterpreting the system. I know that Lynn uses other methods in addition to the elemental system in her use of hand reading, and if I’m not mistaken, Johnny has developed a branch off the system based on his own understanding. I’m not sure how many hand readers there are who follow the elemental system to the letter. Are there any, or could I be right in believing that it is being used as a starting point for further growth? I don’t know.

You mentioned two approaches –
1. The fingers are active and the palm is passive – I’m not sure I can agree with this completely because I see the fingers as a mental extension to the energy stored in the mounts below. The longer the finger, the more of the stored energy is expressed externally through the finger. This suggests that the shorter the finger, the less power the stored energy has to access and materialise in the outer world. This suggests to me the appearance of both active and passive attributes.

Johnny mentions in the Spell binding power of palmistry that a short ring finger does not exist so therefore, the ring finger must be associated with the male hormone testosterone in all demonstration, therefore the peacock’s feather must apply to all. Hmmm, I find myself umming and aaahing at this. Immediately my mind asks, what about energy blocks on the Apollo mount? What about lines of frustration on the ring finger? I know people with long ring fingers who don’t strut about like peacock’s, but who are actually rather quiet, passive individuals despite their long fingers. To discuss the ring finger and Apollo mount in this way suggests limitation to me; for me it is ignoring other aspects of the hands which might combine or modify the interpretation of the feature in question. We all know that one feature can never stand alone – it is always modified by something else.

So I would add another approach here – that the fingers themselves be considered active or passive, based on finger length, mount size, and any other modifications arising from finger setting, leaning and energy blocks from lines found in the fingers and the lines reaching up towards those fingers. To take only one aspect of any individual finger and use that as a complete definition seems wrong to me.

2. Radial/Active; Ulna/Passive
There seems to be total disagreement about this! It makes me wonder if the whole idea of active and passive in the hands should be further investigated by everyone, because we know that there is always the thought that many take this idea on board and never thoroughly question it. From my point of view, I can see how the thumb externalises the inner storage of energy from the entire hand. I could almost suggest that the thumb represents our free will; that we draw on whatever is within us and externalise it using the thumb as a means. However, at the same time, I can also understand the idea of the thumb representing the inner essence, but only in part. The thumb alone cannot be our inner essence because our inner essence encompasses everything. Everything. That is my understanding of our inner essence. It is infinite, it pervades everything. How can the thumb possibly be everything when we know it’s not. The thumb, in my understanding, drives everything outwards. It is known that no matter how creative a person, no matter how expressive a person, no matter how ambitious a person, it will not get far without the thumb to drive it forwards. This suggests activity. This cannot be passive energy no matter how you look at it.

Anatomically speaking, it is impossible to drive anything forwards and outwards with the ring finger. Just attempting to push this finger forwards independently is very difficult for the average person. In fact, it generally requires quite a lot of accompanying force from the pinky finger. In this light, I can also relate the thumb to our inner self because when we give someone the ‘thumbs up’ we are actually encouraging another person from within our own personal self. In doing this gesture, we are not saying, “The whole world thinks you are doing just great?” What we are saying is, “I, personally, think you are doing great.” So it seems that the underlying force of this gesture is coming from within.

I have to keep coming back to the idea that everything comes from within. This would suggest that the whole hand, palm and fingers, is inner. And everything, coming from the inner, then materialises in the outer. So on a really fundamental level, I find it an impossible argument to discuss which area of the hands relates to inner and which relates to outer. I don’t believe this discussion will ever be settled, certainly not with our understanding at this time.

I don’t have much time now to go into this further but will be definitely be returning to give this whole idea more consideration. It’s a very interesting topic.



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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Patti on Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:57 pm



Johnny mentions in the Spell binding power of palmistry that a short ring finger does not exist so therefore, the ring finger must be associated with the male hormone testosterone in all demonstration, therefore the peacock’s feather must apply to all. Hmmm, I find myself umming and aaahing at this.
.

This statement got my attention and I had to look it up. He doesn't actually say a short ring finger doesn't exist (which is good because it'd be one of those things that if I caught when I first picked up the book - I'd put it back on the shelf as a reject - as I'd think the author didn't really read hands, but instead wrote books)

But, what he does say is equally important to pay attention to: "The ultimate meaning of this digit though is that it's an elaboration of the display and rutting instinct in the competition to attract a mate, hence its peacock feather metaphor." Page 48 "The Spellbinding Power of Palmistry"

Hello!? What!?

When I was reading Gettings the other night, I found myself thumbing through pages trying to find the in depth details for the ulnar parts of the palm as were found for the fingers and the radial side. In some places he actually shrugged off commenting on the hypothenar after elaborating in length about the thenar saying that 'they (hypothenar) basically all look alike' (paraphrased)

I ran into the same sort of situation looking for more information on feminine aspects of Jung's Model for the Psyche of the Mind. In fact Jung added the Animus only because he guessed since he was aware of an Anima in himself that women must have the opposite of the same energy in themselves.

Perhaps the big confusions, contradictions and misunderstandings is the "fact" that most of the palmistry books have been written and designed around a man's hand!

In fact, from what I've come across so far, the idea that the thumb can describe the entire essence of man is based on this viewpoint that the feminine aspects of the hand, the yin of the balance of yin/yang, are small, unimportant, all alike, and in the world of vague things like intuition and nurturing. So, the thumb may describe "man" as his yang side in palmistry history but this is a big mistake in the sense that it is only a half truth.

p.s.:
In Lori Reid's "The Female Hand" she writes of the ring finger "The ring finger represents creativity and one's sense of personal fulfillment and satisfaction in life. It is the finger which rules appreciation of the arts, music and beauty." This is a more traditional and uni-sex definition of the ring finger.

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Lynn on Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:59 pm

Sucom wrote:
2. Radial/Active; Ulna/Passive
There seems to be total disagreement about this! It makes me wonder if the whole idea of active and passive in the hands should be further investigated by everyone, because we know that there is always the thought that many take this idea on board and never thoroughly question it. From my point of view, I can see how the thumb externalises the inner storage of energy from the entire hand. I could almost suggest that the thumb represents our free will; that we draw on whatever is within us and externalise it using the thumb as a means. However, at the same time, I can also understand the idea of the thumb representing the inner essence, but only in part. The thumb alone cannot be our inner essence because our inner essence encompasses everything. Everything. That is my understanding of our inner essence. It is infinite, it pervades everything. How can the thumb possibly be everything when we know it’s not. The thumb, in my understanding, drives everything outwards. It is known that no matter how creative a person, no matter how expressive a person, no matter how ambitious a person, it will not get far without the thumb to drive it forwards. This suggests activity. This cannot be passive energy no matter how you look at it.

:=D>: I agree.

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Lynn on Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:56 pm

I think Jennifer's writing there suggest that she even one step further than your own view. Because you described that you only use that view for the palm;
I think if you look at one of my first posts on the thumb discussion, I actually say I use it for ulna/radial division of the hand - which can then be subdivided in many ways. Later on when discussion quadrants, I separated out fingers and palm because we were talking about a different way of dividing the hand.

I think she could be making a likewise mistake like Christopher did: that would actually result in an inconsistency withing Jennifer's frame work.
probably leads to an inconsistency in her work...
She is probably not aware of this contradiction.

Martijn, you keep accusing 5-element authors of lack of understanding, mistakes, contradictions, inconsistencies etc. When so far we are seeing a lot of agreement and consistencies between the authors. The problem is not in their lack of awareness etc, it seems more to be in your inability to understand and accept how the system works.

Therefore I really have to ask you once again to find a passage in one of the books which explicit illustrates that the ulnar-radial principle regarding active and passive can be used for the 5 fingers relative to each other
You have various quotes from Dukes, Jones, Hirsch, Fincham (and me!) that state that in the 5-element system the radial side is seen as active / conscious / outer / expression. But you are not accepting it, what can I do?! You seem to have put the 5-element system on trial with yourself as judge and jury. Really it is not up to me to present more evidence!

In this chart you have taken it upon yourself to try and prove something about yin-yang in the hand. You said it is based on C.Soc principles. That's not quite correct. It is based on the yin-yang principles of the elements (which are universal, not the property of C.Soc!), but you have presented it in a way that has nothing to do with C.Soc methods in the sense that we would never add up the yin/yang or passive/active in the way you have done.
As Patti, Sue & I, and many websites have pointed out, yin & yang are a flow. You did not answer my question (asked twice) about - would you accuse a tsunami of violating the yin principle of water?

The elements are placed on the hand with regard to the Principle of Graduated Materiality, not according to yin-yang. Each element (ie each aspect of the hand) will have its yin & yang expression depending on the various combinations of elements in the analysis of that hand. eg. the amount of that element in each feature (like Sue said about long/short fingers), the way it is being used, how it combines with the other elements, etc etc.

I think most people would agree (my perception) that the thumb is not the most passive digit, both from a physical perspective and a hand reading one. There seems to be an inconsistency in the system you have devised to come to such a conclusion! I think you are making a mistake in adding up A & P in the way you have done.




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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Sucom on Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:14 pm

Hi Patti
I'm sorry, I quoted the wrong book. I had both books open in front of me but it states in From Apprentice to Pro in 24 hours that the 'peacock finger is never found short. It's measured in relation to the mirror finger.'

The problem I have with Johnny's words is that if you have a long ring finger, then you will demonstrate qualities of the peacock trying to find a mate. At the same time, if your index finger is longer there is an exaggerated sense of self spending many hours in self reflection, and if the index finger is shorter, there is a lack of self esteem.

(On a personal note, the flambuoyant person strutting their stuff and generally showing off speaks to me of an exaggerated sense of self.)

These explanations of Johnny's suggest to me that whatever you have, you're onto a loser. Can these qualities be the ONLY qualities existing in the entire human race relating to these two fingers?

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Sucom on Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:23 pm

Hi Lynn

I think most people would agree (my perception) that the thumb is not the most passive digit, both from a physical perspective and a hand reading one.

You're absolutely right there. If we are to believe that the thumb truly is a passive digit, I would have thought it would be necessary to rewrite the entire library of palmistry books.

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:30 pm

Thanks Lynn,

Well, first of all: I already acknowledged that Jennifer's guideline does meet what I asked you to find, see:

http://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t2483p30-yin-yang-the-thumb-represents-the-least-active-digit#26649

Anyway, Lynn I can confirm that you appear to have found in Jennifer's work confirmation for the principle that you have adopted yourself.


Second, yes, I have talked a lot about inconsistencies (especially regarding the elemental authors); but regarding the inner vs. outer topic the books of Dukes & Fincham are consistent with the basic Yin-Yang philosophy... and Jennifer's 'God Given Glyps' also appears consistent to me. But the passage that you quoted from Jennifer's other publication does indicate that she appears to be using a principle just like you described.


But now I would like to ask you a question in return:

Did you make any progress in this discussion to understanding the origins of Johnny's vocabulary?

(If your answer here is a no... then I am afraid that this actually can only be explained via the inconsistencies that I have pointed out)


PS. Regarding your question: "would you accuse a tsunami of violating the yin principle of water?"... sorry Lynn, why do you ask me this question?

I can associate a Tsunami with 'overdevelopment' and Yang. And of course, every overdevelopment can be described as Yang and any underdevelopment can be described as Yin. But I don't see the connection between a Tsunami and our discussion about the thumb, because the thumb itself has nothing to do with overdevelopment nor underdevelopment!

Anyway, I apologize for not responding earlier to your question (but that is only because I probaby did not find the time or put enough priority to the post where you presented this question).

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Lynn on Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:43 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:[color=darkred]But now I would like to ask you a question in return:

Did you make any progress in this discussion to understanding the origins of Johnny's vocabulary?

(If your answer here is a no... then I am afraid that this actually can only be explained via the inconsistencies that I have pointed out)
Likewise I apologize for not responding earlier to your question (but that is only because I probaby did not find the time or put enough priority to the post where you presented this question). Wink
If you mean 'progress' as 'do I understand Johnny's words in the same way as you do' - no. I still understand them in the way that made sense to me, eg the quadrant setting the stage for the air and fire fingers 'performance'.


PS. Regarding your question: "would you accuse a tsunami of violating the yin principle of water?"... sorry Lynn, why do you ask me this question?
Because you said that Christopher's use of word 'expressive' violated the yin principle of earth. And I was trying to show that each yin element has its yang expression.

I can associate a Tsunami with 'overdevelopment' and Yang. And of course, every overdevelopment can be described as Yang and any underdevelopment can be described as Yin. But I don't see the connection between a Tsunami and our discussion about the thumb, because the thumb itself has nothing to do with overdevelopment nor underdevelopment!
A strong thumb is more yang, a weak thumb is more yin.
(edit) Not all underdevelopments can be described as yin. A tsunami could be described as a yang (active, forceful, fast moving) form of water, and you could say it is over-developed. But underdevelopment of water could suggest an overdevelopment of its opposite element fire (think of a desert), which would also be yang.(/edit)

As well as overdevelopment/underdevelopment I'm talking about combinations of elements.
You have labelled this diagram as if, for example, all base phalanges of the fingers are equal in their water content (all blue P's). You've labelled all middle phalanges red A for fire. But you haven't taken into account the form or function of those phalanges. Are you sure that the water phalanx of fire finger is passive (yin) and the fire phalanx of water finger is active (yang), given that they are both some combination of fire and water?

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Patti on Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:50 pm

Sucom wrote:Hi Patti
I'm sorry, I quoted the wrong book. I had both books open in front of me but it states in From Apprentice to Pro in 24 hours that the 'peacock finger is never found short. It's measured in relation to the mirror finger.'

The problem I have with Johnny's words is that if you have a long ring finger, then you will demonstrate qualities of the peacock trying to find a mate. At the same time, if your index finger is longer there is an exaggerated sense of self spending many hours in self reflection, and if the index finger is shorter, there is a lack of self esteem.

(On a personal note, the flambuoyant person strutting their stuff and generally showing off speaks to me of an exaggerated sense of self.)

These explanations of Johnny's suggest to me that whatever you have, you're onto a loser. Can these qualities be the ONLY qualities existing in the entire human race relating to these two fingers?

Thanks for that Sue! I didn't purchase his 2nd book as the title suggested it was a reduced repeat of the first. I think some of Johnny's wording draws from his experience reading some seedy types of the nightlife crowd.

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:11 am

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:[color=darkred]But now I would like to ask you a question in return:

Did you make any progress in this discussion to understanding the origins of Johnny's vocabulary?

(If your answer here is a no... then I am afraid that this actually can only be explained via the inconsistencies that I have pointed out)
...
If you mean 'progress' as 'do I understand Johnny's words in the same way as you do' - no. I still understand them in the way that made sense to me, eg the quadrant setting the stage for the air and fire fingers 'performance'.

Sorry Lynn, can you please specify: what does this exactly implicate?


Maybe you can specify with a response to the following summary:

- You described that you link the radial palmar quadrants with 'outer world'.
- However, Johnny describes in his books that he links the upper ulnar palmar quadrant with 'outer world', 'public stage' & 'world stage'.

Now, knowing that both of you have the same background (as a student at the C.S. where the students are familiar with the use of the words 'public' and 'private')... I think it is obvious that your description and Johnny's description are contradictive.

(I have pointed out to Dukes' guidelines for the quadrants where the world 'public' is linked with the upper palmar quadrants - which appears to be the same principle used by Johnny who also links the lower quadrants with in respective the words 'deep psyche' (= linked with lower ulnar quadrant) and 'domestic + family' (= linked with lower radial quadrant)

Can you explain to me why you do not perceive this as a contradiction?



Lynn wrote:
PS. Regarding your question: "would you accuse a tsunami of violating the yin principle of water?"... sorry Lynn, why do you ask me this question?
Because you said that Christopher's use of word 'expressive' violated the yin principle of earth. And I was trying to show that each yin element has its yang expression.

Yes, but your tsunami is a temporary (yang-)manifestation of water (caused by non-water forces).

But Christopher's "association" relates to the fundamental definitions! For, since the lower radial quadrant is linked with earth (= the 'inert' element) and 'private' (according Dukes), there appears no basis to associate the lower radial quadrant also with 'more outwardly directed' ... because earth is not moving anywhere and the quadrant itself is already linked with 'private' (= more inward!).

By the way, I did not respond when you described it... but you mentioned that Christopher has used his guideline only once. Did he never use it in his other publications?


Lynn wrote:
I can associate a Tsunami with 'overdevelopment' and Yang. And of course, every overdevelopment can be described as Yang and any underdevelopment can be described as Yin. But I don't see the connection between a Tsunami and our discussion about the thumb, because the thumb itself has nothing to do with overdevelopment nor underdevelopment!
A strong thumb is more yang, a weak thumb is more yin.
(edit) Not all underdevelopments can be described as yin. A tsunami could be described as a yang (active, forceful, fast moving) form of water, and you could say it is over-developed. But underdevelopment of water could suggest an overdevelopment of its opposite element fire (think of a desert), which would also be yang.(/edit)

As well as overdevelopment/underdevelopment I'm talking about combinations of elements.

Yes, that makes sense to me as well.

Lynn wrote:
You have labelled this diagram as if, for example, all base phalanges of the fingers are equal in their water content (all blue P's). You've labelled all middle phalanges red A for fire. But you haven't taken into account the form or function of those phalanges. Are you sure that the water phalanx of fire finger is passive (yin) and the fire phalanx of water finger is active (yang), given that they are both some combination of fire and water?

Well, I could for example have lowered the weight of the phalanges and I could have made the weight of the finger vs palm aspect higher. But it wouldn't change anything rergarding the outcome in terms of radial vs. ulnar... though the thumb would become more passive (because the weight of the 'passive' thenar would become more significant regarding the thumb)

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Lynn on Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:23 am

Patti wrote:
Sucom wrote:Hi Patti
I'm sorry, I quoted the wrong book. I had both books open in front of me but it states in From Apprentice to Pro in 24 hours that the 'peacock finger is never found short. It's measured in relation to the mirror finger.'

The problem I have with Johnny's words is that if you have a long ring finger, then you will demonstrate qualities of the peacock trying to find a mate. At the same time, if your index finger is longer there is an exaggerated sense of self spending many hours in self reflection, and if the index finger is shorter, there is a lack of self esteem.

(On a personal note, the flambuoyant person strutting their stuff and generally showing off speaks to me of an exaggerated sense of self.)

These explanations of Johnny's suggest to me that whatever you have, you're onto a loser. Can these qualities be the ONLY qualities existing in the entire human race relating to these two fingers?

Thanks for that Sue! I didn't purchase his 2nd book as the title suggested it was a reduced repeat of the first. I think some of Johnny's wording draws from his experience reading some seedy types of the nightlife crowd.

I agree with you Patti. Remember Johnny did some of his research into the passion line at the erotica exhibition in London, and one of the things he says about very long ring finger is 'loves dressing up'!

I understand what you are saying Sue, but I think the exaggerated sense of self of the index is more introverted (hence self-reflection) and the exaggerated sense of self you see in the long ring finger 'peacock strutting its stuff' is more extraverted 'show-off'. (and could be a cover up for the lack of self esteem in the shorter index).

My friend kinda taught me something about this many years ago when I was preparing to do my first public talk and I was incredibly nervous & terrified. She said "just let go of your ego". I said "If I had a big ego then I'd be confident and wouldn't be so nervous". She said "It's only your ego that cares what people think". (I don't know if this is using 'ego' in Jung's terms, so lets not get into that!). That made me think about the differences between ring finger confidence and index finger confidence. Now I can relate that to what Johnny says about long index can't forget about themselves, can't hide behind a mask, whereas long ring finger don't take themselves so seriously. Mine are about the same length so I was able to 'get over myself' and give the talk via a persona that came across as much more confident than I felt!

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:46 am

Lynn wrote:...

I understand what you are saying Sue, but I think the exaggerated sense of self of the index is more introverted (hence self-reflection) and the exaggerated sense of self you see in the long ring finger 'peacock strutting its stuff' is more extraverted 'show-off'. (and could be a cover up for the lack of self esteem in the shorter index).

PS. Interesting example Lynn!

Sounds to me like that the long index finger is more introverted and the longer ring finger is more extraverted.

I think this directly suggests that the index finger is more connect with the inner world (spending quality time on self-reflection) and the ring finger more connect with the outer world (spending quality time on how to 'show-off').

I think this perfectly fits in my idea that the pinky relates more to the part of the mind that wants to connect with the outer world, while the thumb relates more to the core-part of the mind where all activity begins and/or gets managed.

Simples!


PS. It's so hard for my to understand why anyone would want to work with a principle for all fingers together (such as: 'thumb is more outer, pinky is more inner')... when the role individual fingers does not suit the principle.

(Lynn, I would love to see you put this example inside your perspective regarding: ulnar vs radial = inner vs outer)

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:14 am

Sucom wrote:Hi Lynn

I think most people would agree (my perception) that the thumb is not the most passive digit, both from a physical perspective and a hand reading one.

You're absolutely right there. If we are to believe that the thumb truly is a passive digit, I would have thought it would be necessary to rewrite the entire library of palmistry books.

Sue

Sue, the outcome of my picture is the direct result of most of the principles being used in the elemental system.

Let me present you a clear example:

Earlier this week I have given a summary indicating that the index finger is probably the most used finger of the hand (at least regarding many activities).

However, in the elemental system the index finger is named the 'water finger'; and in the system water is associated with Yin and passive (Johnny Fincham calls it the 'mirror finger' and he associates this finger with self-reflection = a passive Yin quality).

Now, I would love to see anyone explaining how the 'self-reflection' finger in the perspective of the psyche... can be understood as also representing the most dynamic/active fingers of our hand in our daily life!


I don't think that any of the (elemental) books have tried to explain things by making such connections with daily life all the time!

I am not asking anyone to answer/respond to these example; I am only trying to describe that one can not always connect the principles used in hand reading for the hand as a representation of the mind with every observation regarding the use of hand in daily life. Because one should always be very aware of the perspective that one is using.


I can illustrate this with the following example:

The thumb is the least differentiated digit (it has only 2 outward phalanges) and the thumb is also the most proximal & inward positioned digit of the hand. That is why by principle it can be associated with Yin regarding the bone structure (when compared with the other digits).

However... the musculature featured with the first metacarpal bone (which is anatomically also considered as a part of the thumb!) is actually the most differentiated part of the musculature system inside the hand. So this aspect of the thumb can be associated with more Yang inside the palm of the hand (while the palm itself repesents Yin of course).

So, one could say here that the core part of the thumb (= the thumb bones) relate more to yin (more passive); while the surrounding part of the thumb (= the thumb's musculature) relates more to yang (more active). And both perspectives together tend to compensate or 'balance' each other.


I think this very nicely explains how the length of the thumb bones can for a start be associated with the inner world (in terms of willing - thinking - feeling), while the position & angle of the thumb can be used how the thumb is inclined to manifest itself to the outer world. Therefore regarding the thumb everything can very well depend on which perspective one is using when making a consideration.



2 Perspective for the hand: bone structure versus muscular structure.

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Patti on Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:31 am

However, in the elemental system the index finger is named the 'water finger'; and in the system water is associated with Yin and passive (Johnny Fincham calls it the 'mirror finger' and he associates this finger with self-reflection = a passive Yin quality).

When Johnny uses the term "self-reflective", I don't think he is using it in a passive, looking inward way.

"The shorter the 'mirror' finger, the more the reflected self-image is diminutive." page 45

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