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Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Lynn on Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:33 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:...

I understand what you are saying Sue, but I think the exaggerated sense of self of the index is more introverted (hence self-reflection) and the exaggerated sense of self you see in the long ring finger 'peacock strutting its stuff' is more extraverted 'show-off'. (and could be a cover up for the lack of self esteem in the shorter index).

PS. Interesting example Lynn!

Sounds to me like that the long index finger is more introverted and the longer ring finger is more extraverted.

I think this directly suggests that the index finger is more connect with the inner world (spending quality time on self-reflection) and the ring finger more connect with the outer world (spending quality time on how to 'show-off').

I think this perfectly fits in my idea that the pinky relates more to the part of the mind that wants to connect with the outer world, while the thumb relates more to the core-part of the mind where all activity begins and/or gets managed.

Simples!


PS. It's so hard for my to understand why anyone would want to work with a principle for all fingers together (such as: 'thumb is more outer, pinky is more inner')... when the role individual fingers does not suit the principle.

(Lynn, I would love to see you put this example inside your perspective regarding: ulnar vs radial = inner vs outer)

I absolutely knew that you were going to say all this!!
Back to the various combinations of divisions & subdivisions of ulna vs radial, fingers vs palm, back of hand vs palmar side, microcosm vs macrocosm, yin vs yang, Li vs chi, principles vs manifestations etc etc.

Did I ever say 'pinky is more inner'? I have said ulna side is more inner, air element is more inner with regard to thoughts being an inner thing, but also more outer with regard to communication. It's not a linear thing that you can put n boxes, it is a spectrum of various combinations.
Look at the world around you. Everything in it can be described as some combination of the four elements, or all can be described as ether vibrating at different levels. Could you create a chart for it?

___________________________________________
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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Lynn on Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:48 am

I haven't read everything, but just wanted to reply to this question of Martijn's

Now, I would love to see anyone explaining how the 'self-reflection' finger in the perspective of the psyche... can be understood as also representing the most dynamic/active fingers of our hand in our daily life!

Because basically most people are interested in themselves! their (our) own desires, needs, wants, ideals, personal visions, ambitions, how it affects us personally, control issues, confidence issues...... etc ....are at the forefront of our activities in daily life!

___________________________________________
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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:58 am

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:...

I understand what you are saying Sue, but I think the exaggerated sense of self of the index is more introverted (hence self-reflection) and the exaggerated sense of self you see in the long ring finger 'peacock strutting its stuff' is more extraverted 'show-off'. (and could be a cover up for the lack of self esteem in the shorter index).

PS. Interesting example Lynn!

Sounds to me like that the long index finger is more introverted and the longer ring finger is more extraverted.

I think this directly suggests that the index finger is more connect with the inner world (spending quality time on self-reflection) and the ring finger more connect with the outer world (spending quality time on how to 'show-off').

I think this perfectly fits in my idea that the pinky relates more to the part of the mind that wants to connect with the outer world, while the thumb relates more to the core-part of the mind where all activity begins and/or gets managed.

Simples!


PS. It's so hard for my to understand why anyone would want to work with a principle for all fingers together (such as: 'thumb is more outer, pinky is more inner')... when the role individual fingers does not suit the principle.

(Lynn, I would love to see you put this example inside your perspective regarding: ulnar vs radial = inner vs outer)

I absolutely knew that you were going to say all this!!
Back to the various combinations of divisions & subdivisions of ulna vs radial, fingers vs palm, back of hand vs palmar side, microcosm vs macrocosm, yin vs yang, Li vs chi, principles vs manifestations etc etc.

Did I ever say 'pinky is more inner'? I have said ulna side is more inner, air element is more inner with regard to thoughts being an inner thing, but also more outer with regard to communication. It's not a linear thing that you can put n boxes, it is a spectrum of various combinations.
Look at the world around you. Everything in it can be described as some combination of the four elements, or all can be described as ether vibrating at different levels. Could you create a chart for it?

Okay, sounds fine with me.

But if the pinky is not more 'inner', and the 'ring finger' is not more inner, and the air quadrant is also not more inner (see Johnny's vocabulary)... then it looks like that the ulnar aspect of your principle basically can only be linked directly with the palmar water quadrant only.

And then because of the quadrants... you actually give me more arguments to wonder whether it actually makes sense to associate your principle with the full palm (or the full hand).


By the way, does your answer implicate that you are not able to put your observations regarding the ring finger and index finger inside the principle that you are using?

(Just asking, because in your answer you didn't refer to my request)

Thanks!


___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:17 am

Lynn wrote:I haven't read everything, but just wanted to reply to this question of Martijn's

Now, I would love to see anyone explaining how the 'self-reflection' finger in the perspective of the psyche... can be understood as also representing the most dynamic/active fingers of our hand in our daily life!

Because basically most people are interested in themselves! their (our) own desires, needs, wants, ideals, personal visions, ambitions, how it affects us personally, control issues, confidence issues...... etc ....are at the forefront of our activities in daily life!

Thanks for you attempt to explain this Lynn.

But at first sight I don't think that I can relate to this for two reasons:

- First of all, I think that most of our daily activites are not induced by needs related to 'self-reflection' (most of human activities relate to more basic needs);
- Second, you mentioned 'desires', 'needs' and 'wants'.. but I think those more relate to more basic needs.

For example: Maslow's hierarchy of needs suggests that 'self-reflection' (esteem) belongs to the fourth level of needs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs




Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:39 am; edited 1 time in total

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Patti on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:22 am

I just read Johnnny's description for the index finger and there are only a few keywords that actually relate to how I interpret this finger.

I think he has given it way too much *meaning*. Only some people would identify with some of his definitions. He only briefly mentions teacher, but teachers often have longer index fingers. It's one of the combination factors that involves a teacher. It's on leaders who can lead without their egos getting in the way (like Lynn's story). And Geo. W. is a good example of the inflated ego of the shorter index/longer ring ..... think "Mission Accomplished".


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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Patti on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:46 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
I think this perfectly fits in my idea that the pinky relates more to the part of the mind that wants to connect with the outer world, while the thumb relates more to the core-part of the mind where all activity begins and/or gets managed.
[/color]

Where have you assigned the *mind*?



Last edited by Patti on Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:24 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Patti on Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:10 am

You know, I think that mentioning of Johnny's book over and over in this forum and other forums, since its publication, has been a big boom in selling his books, making him well known, and putting money in his pocket - it's a shame he won't log on and return the favor.

Or, at least it might behoove him to give some support to the odd names he's given the fingers (mirror, wall, peacock feather and world stage)..... before discussions like this cause people to decide to no longer purchase his book and resort back to the tried and true classics.


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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:03 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
I think this perfectly fits in my idea that the pinky relates more to the part of the mind that wants to connect with the outer world, while the thumb relates more to the core-part of the mind where all activity begins and/or gets managed.
[/color]

Where have you assigned the *mind*?


Maybe you misunderstood the intend of this topic? Maybe you associated the passive vs active them with hand motorics only?

I have only adressed this 'active vs passive' theme (based on the Yin-Yang philosophy) in the perspective of the mind map for the hand.

Just like the other topic about 'the thumb' only addresses the mind map for the hand.

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

Martijn (admin)
Admin

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Patti on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:21 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
I think this perfectly fits in my idea that the pinky relates more to the part of the mind that wants to connect with the outer world, while the thumb relates more to the core-part of the mind where all activity begins and/or gets managed.
[/color]

Where have you assigned the *mind*?


Maybe you misunderstood the intend of this topic? Maybe you associated the passive vs active them with hand motorics only?

I have only adressed this 'active vs passive' theme (based on the Yin-Yang philosophy) in the perspective of the mind map for the hand.

Just like the other topic about 'the thumb' only addresses the mind map for the hand.

Actually I thought you were connecting active/passive with motorics. But, if you do take a look at the motorics, you will find that not one single finger is moved by it's own network of tendons, nerves and muscles. Each digit shares these features with other fingers.

Patti

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:58 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
I think this perfectly fits in my idea that the pinky relates more to the part of the mind that wants to connect with the outer world, while the thumb relates more to the core-part of the mind where all activity begins and/or gets managed.
[/color]

Where have you assigned the *mind*?


Maybe you misunderstood the intend of this topic? Maybe you associated the passive vs active them with hand motorics only?

I have only adressed this 'active vs passive' theme (based on the Yin-Yang philosophy) in the perspective of the mind map for the hand.

Just like the other topic about 'the thumb' only addresses the mind map for the hand.

Actually I thought you were connecting active/passive with motorics. But, if you do take a look at the motorics, you will find that not one single finger is moved by it's own network of tendons, nerves and muscles. Each digit shares these features with other fingers.

Patti, your words sound like you misread/misunderstood my first post - probably because you got stuck in your own associations regarding the words 'active' and 'passive' with motorics.

We actually entered this issue via the topic about the thumb (which is all focussed on the representation of the thumb in the mind). And I have launched this topic in the perspective of the Yin & Yang philosophy, and in my first post I did not talk about hand motorics at all, nor did I refer to anything that relates to motorics.


By the way, motorics for the hand can be sub-divided for 'flexing' (flexor muscles = joint angle descreasing = more Yin) and 'extension' (extensor muscles = joint angle inceasing = more Yang); and additionally one can also speak of 'abduct' (abductor muscles = e.g. dorsal muscules = more yang) and 'adduct' (adductor muscles = e.g. palmar muscles = more yin).

Maybe, this could very well be a more perspective for linking hand motorics with Yin & Yang, because any 'flexing' is always followed by 'extension' (plus vice versa), and any 'abduction' is always followed by 'adduction' (and vice versa).

So, even though I understand your association regarding motorics... our discussion started a few weeks ago with my 'mind maps' for the hand - my second picture was featured with the words 'the human mind reflected in the hand' and 'the mind reflected in the hand' and 'mind map for the and' - see the pictures at the bottom of this post: http://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t2419-the-thumb-represents-the-inner-essence-of-man



___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

Martijn (admin)
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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Kiran.Katawa on Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:21 pm

Lynn wrote:
My friend kinda taught me something about this many years ago when I was preparing to do my first public talk and I was incredibly nervous & terrified. She said "just let go of your ego". I said "If I had a big ego then I'd be confident and wouldn't be so nervous". She said "It's only your ego that cares what people think". (I don't know if this is using 'ego' in Jung's terms, so lets not get into that!). That made me think about the differences between ring finger confidence and index finger confidence. Now I can relate that to what Johnny says about long index can't forget about themselves, can't hide behind a mask, whereas long ring finger don't take themselves so seriously. Mine are about the same length so I was able to 'get over myself' and give the talk via a persona that came across as much more confident than I felt!

Nice real life example Lynn. Thumbs up!
Got to learn so many things from the THUMB is INNER ESSENCE thread.
With this, I don't think THUMB is weak digit, it is very strong Wink cheers

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Patti on Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:41 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
I think this perfectly fits in my idea that the pinky relates more to the part of the mind that wants to connect with the outer world, while the thumb relates more to the core-part of the mind where all activity begins and/or gets managed.
[/color]

Where have you assigned the *mind*?


Maybe you misunderstood the intend of this topic? Maybe you associated the passive vs active them with hand motorics only?

I have only adressed this 'active vs passive' theme (based on the Yin-Yang philosophy) in the perspective of the mind map for the hand.

Just like the other topic about 'the thumb' only addresses the mind map for the hand.

When I asked where did you place the mind, I was referring to the idea that 'mind' is not the entire psyche, or soul, but one aspect of it. Mind is associated with Ego. The "I". But, I think that you are referring to mind in a generic Wiki way and seeing it as the entire cerebral awareness in humans. Yet, this thinking "mind" is only one aspect of human awareness. (Have you heard of Eckhart Tolle or read any of his books?)

Patti

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:02 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
I think this perfectly fits in my idea that the pinky relates more to the part of the mind that wants to connect with the outer world, while the thumb relates more to the core-part of the mind where all activity begins and/or gets managed.
[/color]

Where have you assigned the *mind*?


Maybe you misunderstood the intend of this topic? Maybe you associated the passive vs active them with hand motorics only?

I have only adressed this 'active vs passive' theme (based on the Yin-Yang philosophy) in the perspective of the mind map for the hand.

Just like the other topic about 'the thumb' only addresses the mind map for the hand.

When I asked where did you place the mind, I was referring to the idea that 'mind' is not the entire psyche, or soul, but one aspect of it. Mind is associated with Ego. The "I". But, I think that you are referring to mind in a generic Wiki way and seeing it as the entire cerebral awareness in humans. Yet, this thinking "mind" is only one aspect of human awareness. (Have you heard of Eckhart Tolle or read any of his books?)

Patti, in my very first picture that I presented in the first post of the thumb-topic I have used the picture below - which describes how I had attempted to describe the full hand in terms of 'identity' (the thumb representing 'core identity', and the other fingers representing other aspects of the 'identity').

Does this help you to recognize that I really have described the full hand as a mind-model (immediately when I started the thumb-topic).

PS. By the way, in my 2nd picture I have described this even more explicite (see words at the bottom of the 2nd picture below!).




___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

Martijn (admin)
Admin

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Re: Yin & Yang: the thumb represents the least active digit!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:25 pm


I have now also made a map representing the motoric perspective (see picture below).

Interestingly, while make the map I found an important aspect of the motorics regarding the thumbs' 'opposability' to the other fingers; because Wikipedia reports that this quality is mostly related to the metacarpal phalange of the thumb... which is found in the inner palm!:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thumb#Finger_and_thumb

"The thumb contrasts with each of the other four by being the only digit that:
...
- Is attached to such a mobile metacarpus (which produces most of the opposability)"


(The two sesamoide bones featured with the first metacarpal bone appear to play a role in the mobility of this bone and the the 2nd thumb bone)


And therefore, when we compare the 2-phalanged thumb with the 3-phalanged fingers... then one can by principle not use the issue of the 'opposability' in order to claim that the thumb is more active than most of the fingers!

So, in this matter things appear a little more complex that what they appear at first sight!

And therefore I think one needs to become very aware of the details in order to compare the Yin-Yang perspective with hand motorics.




Anyway, in terms of the 4 quadrants the result of my hand motorics picture is not very different from the result of my Yin-Yang picture presented in the first post of this topic.

scratch Maybe I will consider at a later moment it I am able to present a more detailed guideline how both pictures can be used and understood together.



___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

Martijn (admin)
Admin

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Location : The Netherlands

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