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1 Significant Difference Between 5E System and LP(Life Purpose) System

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Re: 1 Significant Difference Between 5E System and LP(Life Purpose) System

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:27 pm

Kiran.Katawa wrote:Hi Martijn,
Regarding your earlier post -
Martijn (admin) wrote:
And since there appears to broad agreement regarding the nature of the arch fingerprint pattern being connected with earth and the loop fingerprint pattern with water... I think it could actually make sense to associate a single-core whorl with fire, and a double-core whorl (or double loop) with air.

Sorry, I didn't get clearly as what you want convey.
If I understand right, you're saying that: There is agreement regarding arch and loop b/w classic and RU's system. While the TA and Whorl are not treated the same in these 2 schools. So, assigning fire element to whorl and air to doulble loop would simplify the matter?
Is my understanding correct?
...

Yes Kiran, your summary correctly replicates what I tried to describe.

But please be aware that I am only proposing this as a 'theoretic' perspective that can be used to understand things more properly from a fundamental point of view.

(I would have to start reading many more details in order to find out if such a fundamental perspective could even explain more things than what I have tried to describe so far regarding that the 'contradiction' between the classic perspective and Unger's perspective... but I observe that this 'theoretic' perspective could actually indicate that the contradiction may be much smaller than what one would assume at first sight. Because I recognize that each of both perspectives actually have it's own problematic aspects, but I think these only become more apparent when one starts considering things from a fundamental point of view... for example via the principle of the 'graduated materiality')

I hope this makes sense?

Thanks!

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Re: 1 Significant Difference Between 5E System and LP(Life Purpose) System

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:36 pm

Kiran.Katawa wrote:...
Martijn (admin) wrote:
However, earlier discussions have indicated that Richard's approach to the tented arch is rather dubious... and very susceptible to arbitrary subjective observations/interpretations (because Richard's so-called 'advanced' method for the tented arch can by principle only be applied to the hand directly because the rotation of the finger gets involved... which implicates that one can not apply this to fingerprints on paper - which Richard has confirmed to me about 3 year ago!).

Why? is it 'coz, the TA would appear as a "loop + TA" depending on the way I am holding the finger in front of me? and the same can't happen on a paper.
...

Exactly! Thumbs up!

(Richard's guideline for the tented arch can not be applied to a fingerprint on paper, and this actually also has likewise implications for the assessment of the loop... and thus the whole IIHA system)

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Re: 1 Significant Difference Between 5E System and LP(Life Purpose) System

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:06 pm

Kiran.Katawa wrote:...
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Unfortunately, I recognize how this leads to 'one step back' in the evolution of fingerprint interpretatation... because Richard's approach of fingerprint classicification regarding the tented arch is incompatible with the much more detailed approach used by the forensic fingerprint authorities, such as the FBI... which itself is 100% compatible with the common methods usually used in the field of hand reading!
But, Is it essential while reading the hands to get the accuracy of classifying the fingerprint to be of specific type when it is falling on boundary. As I understand, it is the approximate which is considered and the interpreations would go based on that. That's why in RU's system, it will just be based on the no. of tri-radii's and its positioning that is MAINLY used for the classification and ranking.

Yes Kiran, one can always get confronted with fingerprints where one is required to make a decision on subjective grounds when the details include ambigue aspects.

By principle, fingerprint classification has the potential to be treated as a 'hard science'... and this is essential, because this also partly explains why fingerprints came to play a significant role in the forensic sciences!

However, Richard's method includes factors that by principle should not play any role in fingerprint classicifcation at all; and the result is that Richard might qualify a perfectly normal 'loop' as a 'tented arch' - only based on the entirely subject element of the location of the core of a loop.

(And make no mistake... Richard, does allow his students to judge this factor from paper, while he admits that the objective is actually by principle impossible to judge for a fingerprint on paper!!!)

And meanwile the consequence is that in many of his 'tented arches' the rest of the world would probably immediately agree about that it can only represent a 'loop' (based on the FBI method).


PS. Kiran, I also hope you will recognize how this problematic aspect in Richard's method has huge implications... because this implicates that Richard will assess many loops as a 'tented arch'! And we (as non-IIHA students) can hardly oversee how this factor has played a role in his decision to associate the 'tented arch' with air... and not with fire, and the whorl with fire... and not with air.

But I think Richard is misjudging things dramatically when he says that he thinks that he would be able to convince Noel Jacquin regarding the validity of Richard's method... because I would expect that Jacquin would probably in the first place question Richard's method regarding the tented arch... because Richard has never explained why he thought it was necessary to adopt such a subjective element in the proces of fingerprint assessment.

He basically only claims that his method works... but I can at best only recognize that as a by nature entirely subjective argument (that basically closes every door to enter a more advanced discussion).

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Re: 1 Significant Difference Between 5E System and LP(Life Purpose) System

Post  Kiran.Katawa on Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:07 pm

Martijn,
I'll reply to the other post later.
I just noticed this in Baeth's article for TA (The one which you gave):

Knowledge is useless if you don’t use it. If you are in the School of Wisdom, using what you know in an active, engaged way is your homework. What do you need to really decide upon and commit to? Taking action on an important decision is wisdom. For example, deciding to have a child and re-arranging your business and personal life in advance of the baby’s arrival is the exercise of wisdom. We don’t always use what we know, but when we do, life sometimes rewards us with clarity and ease.

So, I think, in this sense, TA is related to fire and actions only and not to air qualities.
(Leave apart the association with TA - Fire/Air and Whorl - Air/Fire between RU and his students).
The point is TA is related to action only.


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Re: 1 Significant Difference Between 5E System and LP(Life Purpose) System

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:50 am


Hi Kiran,

If you would ask Lynn or Jennifer which element relates to 'wisdom', I would expect them to say air first, and earth second; because in Jennifer's book the word 'wise' is ranked under air (page 34)... and the word 'wisdom' is ranked under earth (page 14)!!

(I would not expect them to mention fire, because the action in that element has a drive that is more emotional than the action seen in air which has a more mental drive)


So, everything depends on how the conceptual definition of the elements; and Richard probably did not pay much attention to that... because otherwise some his students would probably not have started working with the traditional principle (where tented arch = fire and whorl = air)!

I think the essence of wisdom is a combination: the study of knowledge + the application of knowledge.

And I would say that 'fire' is not about the STUDY of anything at all, which by principle more relates to air; and since wisdom starts with the study of things... I think by principle it can not be assocated with 'fire'.


Therefore I can understand Richard's + Janet's use of the principle: tented arch = air... because in the IIHA school the 'tented arch' is associated with wisdom!!!

However, in the other hand reading schools this connection between the tented arch and wisdom can not be used... simply because the tented arch is connected with fire!

Ed Campbell e.g. describes an overview for the tented arch:

- Dukes associates it with hyperactivity (I think this is rather typical for fire)
- Hutchinson associates it with enthusiasm (I think this is rather typical for fire)
- Jacquin associates it with sensitivity, emotional, arthistic & idealistic
- Fenton and Wright associate it with a straightforward character (I think this is rather typical for fire)
- Fairchild associates it with arch qualities + the syndrome of terrible uniqueness
- Jaegers associates it with working with animals, creative analysis & perfectionism

So, I don't think there is any other author (before RIchard's work was published) who has used a concept that can be connected the tented arch with wisdom.

(Unless one starts making associations that go beyond the core meaning of the words being used!)


wave

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wisdom is a verb

Post  knox gillespie on Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:00 pm

Wisdom is not an object, it is a multi- layered process...

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Re: 1 Significant Difference Between 5E System and LP(Life Purpose) System

Post  Patti on Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:39 pm

knox gillespie wrote:Wisdom is not an object, it is a multi- layered process...

I agree Knox. It's a result of experience.


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Re: 1 Significant Difference Between 5E System and LP(Life Purpose) System

Post  Patti on Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:46 pm

Kiran.Katawa wrote:Martijn,
I'll reply to the other post later.
I just noticed this in Baeth's article for TA (The one which you gave):

Knowledge is useless if you don’t use it. If you are in the School of Wisdom, using what you know in an active, engaged way is your homework. What do you need to really decide upon and commit to? Taking action on an important decision is wisdom. For example, deciding to have a child and re-arranging your business and personal life in advance of the baby’s arrival is the exercise of wisdom. We don’t always use what we know, but when we do, life sometimes rewards us with clarity and ease.

So, I think, in this sense, TA is related to fire and actions only and not to air qualities.
(Leave apart the association with TA - Fire/Air and Whorl - Air/Fire between RU and his students).
The point is TA is related to action only.


I think Baeth's example for wisdom=fire is an odd one. I would describe the basis of the actions of a mother planning the birth of a child as 'wisdom' if she's gone through the experience in some way as to become wise. Otherwise she is making 'smart' decisions, but not decisions made on wisdom. Action does equal fire energy but wisdom has nothing to do with fire energy (alone). Wisdom would be the air(knowing),water(understanding), earth(practical,realness), result of fire(action/experience) energy.

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Re: 1 Significant Difference Between 5E System and LP(Life Purpose) System

Post  Kiran.Katawa on Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:49 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Kiran.Katawa wrote:Hi Martijn,
Regarding your earlier post -
Martijn (admin) wrote:
And since there appears to broad agreement regarding the nature of the arch fingerprint pattern being connected with earth and the loop fingerprint pattern with water... I think it could actually make sense to associate a single-core whorl with fire, and a double-core whorl (or double loop) with air.

Sorry, I didn't get clearly as what you want convey.
If I understand right, you're saying that: There is agreement regarding arch and loop b/w classic and RU's system. While the TA and Whorl are not treated the same in these 2 schools. So, assigning fire element to whorl and air to doulble loop would simplify the matter?
Is my understanding correct?
...

Yes Kiran, your summary correctly replicates what I tried to describe.

But please be aware that I am only proposing this as a 'theoretic' perspective that can be used to understand things more properly from a fundamental point of view.

(I would have to start reading many more details in order to find out if such a fundamental perspective could even explain more things than what I have tried to describe so far regarding that the 'contradiction' between the classic perspective and Unger's perspective... but I observe that this 'theoretic' perspective could actually indicate that the contradiction may be much smaller than what one would assume at first sight. Because I recognize that each of both perspectives actually have it's own problematic aspects, but I think these only become more apparent when one starts considering things from a fundamental point of view... for example via the principle of the 'graduated materiality')

I hope this makes sense?

Thanks!

Okay.
But, this opens up another another direction altogether rather than resolving and understanding the difference at the first place.
'coz,
as per 5E it is: TA - Fire; Whorl - Air, based on graduation of materiality;
as per RU: TA - Air; Whorl - Fire; Based on the placed of tri-radii
as per new theory: Whorl - Fire; DL - Air; Based on the core.

I feel, it will be good to first resolve the difference or understand and come to a common ground on the difference before proposing a new theory.

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Re: 1 Significant Difference Between 5E System and LP(Life Purpose) System

Post  Kiran.Katawa on Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:51 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Kiran.Katawa wrote:...
Martijn (admin) wrote:
However, earlier discussions have indicated that Richard's approach to the tented arch is rather dubious... and very susceptible to arbitrary subjective observations/interpretations (because Richard's so-called 'advanced' method for the tented arch can by principle only be applied to the hand directly because the rotation of the finger gets involved... which implicates that one can not apply this to fingerprints on paper - which Richard has confirmed to me about 3 year ago!).

Why? is it 'coz, the TA would appear as a "loop + TA" depending on the way I am holding the finger in front of me? and the same can't happen on a paper.
...

Exactly! Thumbs up!

(Richard's guideline for the tented arch can not be applied to a fingerprint on paper, and this actually also has likewise implications for the assessment of the loop... and thus the whole IIHA system)
Is this still followed Martijn? Do you more info on this from RU and can this be share here, if its permitted to be shared? But, logically, it should be the other way round, that the TA should be possible to be applied on hand and not on paper. As on paper, it would appear correctly(as my hand would be placed in 90 degrees) against paper!


Last edited by Kiran.Katawa on Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:55 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added last 2-3 lines.)

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Re: 1 Significant Difference Between 5E System and LP(Life Purpose) System

Post  Kiran.Katawa on Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:03 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:

PS. Kiran, I also hope you will recognize how this problematic aspect in Richard's method has huge implications... because this implicates that Richard will assess many loops as a 'tented arch'! And we (as non-IIHA students) can hardly oversee how this factor has played a role in his decision to associate the 'tented arch' with air... and not with fire, and the whorl with fire... and not with air.
[/color]

Martijn, are you saying that, like the way he has associated loop with TA and vice-versa, he has made a subjective assessment on TA being Air and Whorl being fire. Am I right?

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Re: 1 Significant Difference Between 5E System and LP(Life Purpose) System

Post  Kiran.Katawa on Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:59 pm

Yes, I too don't agree with what Beath is giving as definition for wisdom.
But, the point what I am insisting is leave the term 'Wisdom' and notice that the definition(description), which matches to the 'fire' qualities;
Hence, if we look in this way, the school of wisdom is action related and so, RU's system of TA assignment matches with 5E system.

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Re: 1 Significant Difference Between 5E System and LP(Life Purpose) System

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:23 pm

Patti wrote:
Kiran.Katawa wrote:Martijn,
I'll reply to the other post later.
I just noticed this in Baeth's article for TA (The one which you gave):

Knowledge is useless if you don’t use it. If you are in the School of Wisdom, using what you know in an active, engaged way is your homework. What do you need to really decide upon and commit to? Taking action on an important decision is wisdom. For example, deciding to have a child and re-arranging your business and personal life in advance of the baby’s arrival is the exercise of wisdom. We don’t always use what we know, but when we do, life sometimes rewards us with clarity and ease.

So, I think, in this sense, TA is related to fire and actions only and not to air qualities.
(Leave apart the association with TA - Fire/Air and Whorl - Air/Fire between RU and his students).
The point is TA is related to action only.


I think Baeth's example for wisdom=fire is an odd one. I would describe the basis of the actions of a mother planning the birth of a child as 'wisdom' if she's gone through the experience in some way as to become wise. Otherwise she is making 'smart' decisions, but not decisions made on wisdom. Action does equal fire energy but wisdom has nothing to do with fire energy (alone). Wisdom would be the air(knowing),water(understanding), earth(practical,realness), result of fire(action/experience) energy.

Yes Patti, I understand your point: connecting fire with wisdom is a rather strange connection indeed from a fundamental point of view (and that is probably the reason why Richard is not using Baeths principle).

However, I do understand why Baeth made that connection; because her principle does appear' to make sense in an attempt to combine 2 systems.

Because...

First, when one starts reading Richard's book... one soon finds the concept that 'the school of Wisdom' gets associated with a tented arch. That's step 1.

Then second, since Richard does not work with the elements in his system (afterall, he does not mention them in his book)... I understand that some of his students started making the connection with the elements via what other authors have written in other books about fingerprints & the elements. And obviously, the classic principle says: tented arch = fire, etc. That's step 2.

And finally, then step 3 is made by simply combining step 1 & step 2:

- Step 1: tented arch = wisdom (according IIHA)
- Step 2: tented arch = fire (according elemental hand analysis)

And thus this is how step 3 becomes: wisdom = fire!

So, in my view... in a way, Baeth's principle is not odd at all - because her principle is the result of combining IIHA teachings with the elemental fingerprint principles used in Elemental Chirology!


However, I also understand why Richard has created the alternative principle: tented arch = air, because if one starts thinking about what the concept of wisdom is about, one should be able to recognize that the 'intelligent' nature of wisdom does not fit with the 'impulse-like' concept of fire (as described in elemental hand analysis).

So, this appears to indicate... that it is actually impossible to combine the principles used in IIHA with the principles used in elemental chirology!

(Maybe because Richard has not managed to present a sensible system to his students - afterall, the whole concept that life has an individual purpose for individuals is probably a matter of 'belief', and not a matter of fundamental 'logics' - therefore it is not surprizing to see that his students start making connections that may appear 'logic' at first sight... untill one starts thinking about the fundamentals, because only then is becomes possible to recognize that the principle 'fire = wisdom' is acually incompatible with the fundamentals of Elemental Chirology!


PS. To me this is a nice example which illustrates that it is by principle important to work with 'consistent' principles... in order to build a coherent system.

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Re: 1 Significant Difference Between 5E System and LP(Life Purpose) System

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:57 pm

Kiran.Katawa wrote:
Okay.
But, this opens up another another direction altogether rather than resolving and understanding the difference at the first place.
'coz,
as per 5E it is: TA - Fire; Whorl - Air, based on graduation of materiality;
as per RU: TA - Air; Whorl - Fire; Based on the placed of tri-radii
as per new theory: Whorl - Fire; DL - Air; Based on the core.

I feel, it will be good to first resolve the difference or understand and come to a common ground on the difference before proposing a new theory.

Well Kiran, to me it is obvious that it is quite impossible to combine the principles used in Elemental Chirology combined with the principles used by Richard (or vice versa).

And thus I am not sure that there can be much 'resolved' between the two systems... unless one proposses some kind of new type of principle that makes a connection with both systems!


So, I could summarize this as follows... one can make various choices;

- Option 1: One can work with Richard's system only
- Option 2: One can work with Elemental Chirology only

- Alternative option: One can explore the possibility that both systems might include an interesting point... but I think that would require first to explore whether there might be some other 'senisible' principles that has yet to be explored!


(Since Baeth's principle creates a fundamental problem regarding the nature of fire and the nature of wisdom; and therefore it would not make sense to continue with something like 'option 1+2'... like Baeth appears to have done!)


So Kiran... I think it is important to use a sensible 'strategy' to explore things before making any further attempts ahead. And I think I have already described how such a strategy could look like. And I think the principle of the graduated materiality could be an interesting theme to explores the possilities further from a more fundamental point of view!

Because I do think that Richard's principle 'whorl = fire' does makes sense to me in various perspectives... for example (just to present an example): males tent to have more 'fire' and more 'whorls', while females tent to have more 'water' and more 'loops'.

(Only Richard's principle 'tented arch = air' does not make much sense to me at all; but I could also make a likewise point regarding the principle 'tented arch = fire' used in Elemental Chirology... because the tented arch is probably far too rare in order to associate it with fire + in the principle of the graduated materiality fire is not positioned BETWEEN earth and water...!).


Kiran, do you recognize how complex these things really are? (Especially when one starts considering things in a broad perspective!)

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Re: 1 Significant Difference Between 5E System and LP(Life Purpose) System

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:13 am

Kiran.Katawa wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Kiran.Katawa wrote:...
Martijn (admin) wrote:
However, earlier discussions have indicated that Richard's approach to the tented arch is rather dubious... and very susceptible to arbitrary subjective observations/interpretations (because Richard's so-called 'advanced' method for the tented arch can by principle only be applied to the hand directly because the rotation of the finger gets involved... which implicates that one can not apply this to fingerprints on paper - which Richard has confirmed to me about 3 year ago!).

Why? is it 'coz, the TA would appear as a "loop + TA" depending on the way I am holding the finger in front of me? and the same can't happen on a paper.
...

Exactly! Thumbs up!

(Richard's guideline for the tented arch can not be applied to a fingerprint on paper, and this actually also has likewise implications for the assessment of the loop... and thus the whole IIHA system)
Is this still followed Martijn? Do you more info on this from RU and can this be share here, if its permitted to be shared? But, logically, it should be the other way round, that the TA should be possible to be applied on hand and not on paper. As on paper, it would appear correctly(as my hand would be placed in 90 degrees) against paper!

Well, about 3 years ago I had a lengthy detailed email conversation with Richard about this topic. I think I still have it in my email system... but I don't think it is necessary to copy anything from it to this discussion; because if one becomes aware how handprints are made and especially that fingers are pushed against the paper to make a full print of the finger tipe... then if one starts considering/visualize the details then one should immediately become aware that even 'twisted fingers' should become a factor in any decision process about whether a triradius is located at a central point or whether it is located as a point to one of both sides of the fingertip.

By nature such a decision is an entirely arbitrary (subjective) process... that can not be combined with the principle used in for example the FBI system for fingerprint classification - who are historically recognized as the leading authorities for assessing fingerprints!

Do you think you need more detailed info Kiran?

(I think it is basically a matter of using common sense in order to understand the far reaching implications of Richard's 'artificial' principle to start considering the location of the triradius in the perspective of how the fingertip is shared. Because basically, the shape of a fingertip + the relative location of the triradius both do not play any role in the FBI system at all!)

Smile

PS. Sorry, I don't understand your comment regarding the logics about how things get on paper; because the 'pushing' on a fingertip will always be decisive for how the fingerprint will get printed on paper.

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Re: 1 Significant Difference Between 5E System and LP(Life Purpose) System

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:42 am

Kiran.Katawa wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:

PS. Kiran, I also hope you will recognize how this problematic aspect in Richard's method has huge implications... because this implicates that Richard will assess many loops as a 'tented arch'! And we (as non-IIHA students) can hardly oversee how this factor has played a role in his decision to associate the 'tented arch' with air... and not with fire, and the whorl with fire... and not with air.
[/color]

Martijn, are you saying that, like the way he has associated loop with TA and vice-versa, he has made a subjective assessment on TA being Air and Whorl being fire. Am I right?

Well Kiran, I can only especulate about this. But I think Richard is intelligent enough to understand that Baeth's principle (fire = wisdom) can not work... even if she would claim to have received positive feedback!

And thus, from a fundamental point of view... Richard probably recognized that he had to develop another priniple.

However, fortunately, Richard is aware that his principle is not in line with Jacquin's work - because that is what he has pointed in Mark's blog.

But I am not sure how Richard has tried to validate his choices exactly.

I can only say that his method regarding the 'tented arch' is rather arbitrary by nature.So, yes... by principle I do think that one can say his tented arch method represents the start of a rather subjective validition process. Because he is basically also using the argument that one needs to have the person in front of you in order to make an exact assessment according Richard's principles.

While in the FBI method the criteria for recognizing a tented arch can always be verified via paper of via a photo(scan).


Kiran, in my email conversation with Richard he has also informed me that usually his students don't start wondering about this fundamental issue.

And of course, one can not expect Richard's (inexperienced) students to wonder about the fundamentals of Richard's method; because it actually takes time to become familiar with the method!

Obbviously, this is advanced stuff... and I would probably not be able to formulate my problem with Richard's 'tented arch' method when I had not studied the FBI method by detail!

(I say this also being aware that far most professional hand readers in the world are probably not familiar with the FBI method either... but I am aware that Lynn & Patti also are very aware of the FBI method; so Kiran, if necessary you can try to validate what I have described by consulting Lynn & Patti about how I describe the fundamental difference between Richard's method for assessing the tented arch and how a tented arch is assed according the guidelines presente by the FBI)

I hope this is helpfull, Kiran?

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Re: 1 Significant Difference Between 5E System and LP(Life Purpose) System

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:53 am

Kiran.Katawa wrote:Yes, I too don't agree with what Beath is giving as definition for wisdom.
But, the point what I am insisting is leave the term 'Wisdom' and notice that the definition(description), which matches to the 'fire' qualities;
Hence, if we look in this way, the school of wisdom is action related and so, RU's system of TA assignment matches with 5E system.

Yes Kiran, I understand what you are trying to do... but that only works IF one does not consider the full nature of 'wisdom', then one can start making likewise 'associative' connections as the one described by Baeth (where she connects fire with wisdom).

NOTICE: It is quite impossible to describe 'wisdom' in terms of action-related terms only (because wisdom does not start in action... basicaly one can say that it ends in action - however, just like Knox described: wisdom is a 'multi-layer process', where the action represents only one of the layer-components!.


So, I think... when one starts making connections between 2 systems, it is important to respect the fundamental princples used inside both systems.... and I think this requires some process of thorough thought & wondering.

And Richard's principle (tented arch = air)... sort of proofs that in his system one can not connect 'wisdom' with fire, because otherwise Richard would have used Baeth's principle - but obviously, Richard does not use it: because Janet's description that you mentioned is an illustration for this as a fact!


So, the implication is that "RU's system of TA assignment" does not match with the 5E system... simply because:

- Richard is using; arch = earth, tented arch = air, loop = water, whorl = fire
- And 5E is using: arch = earth, tented arch = fire, loop = water, whorl = air

SImples! wave

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Re: 1 Significant Difference Between 5E System and LP(Life Purpose) System

Post  Patti on Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:36 am

I recognize the issues with a printed fingerprint of the loop with a central triradius, especially one that isn't rolled as done by the FBI. Yet, from mostly looking at fingerprints on hands in front of me, I would agree with Richard that the loop with a central triradii is a different creature than the loop with the side triradii. Purkinje placed this pattern between the tented arch and the loop in his set of nine types of prints.


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Re: 1 Significant Difference Between 5E System and LP(Life Purpose) System

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:36 am

Patti wrote:I recognize the issues with a printed fingerprint of the loop with a central triradius, especially one that isn't rolled as done by the FBI. Yet, from mostly looking at fingerprints on hands in front of me, I would agree with Richard that the loop with a central triradii is a different creature than the loop with the side triradii. Purkinje placed this pattern between the tented arch and the loop in his set of nine types of prints.


Patti, I can understand your point... but I think it is important to see the role of such 'creature' in a larger perspective, because:

- the difference between arches and loops is obvious;
- the difference between loops and whorls is obvious;
- and the differences between arches and whorls is obvious.

And I could describe next most sigificant difference as the difference between ulnar loops and radial loops... which are treated in Richard's system almost the same (he uses only a relatively small difference in his 'points' system).


But in the perspective of a comparision between ulnar- and radial loops, the difference between a normal loop and a loop with a central positioned triradius (your 'creature') is actually relatively small!

And I could here also argue that in many cases of a 'tented arch' it hardly varies from the essence of an arch!

Therefore I think the signficance of the tented arch tends to be overestimated, because there are only a few scientific studies which have pointed out that the tented arch could have a significant value regarding diagnostic issues (only in terms of diseases and disorders).


So, I think there are plenty of arguments to consider the idea that the tented arch might not be as important to qualify it as a fourth major fingerprint type.

By the way, this is also confirmed in the FBI system, where the tented arch only represent a variation of the arch... just like a radial loop is recognized as a variation of the loop!

And with all these arguments in mind... I think the principle of the graduated materiality suggests that in a way it doesn't make sense to label a tented arch as the major fingerprint type related to fire - because it often represent only a minor variant positioned between a simple arch and a small loop.


So, I think according the principle of the graduated materiality one could focus all attention on the presence of the number of triradii + the number of cores af follows, by describing a sequence:

1) arch = no triradii + no core = low energy = earth
2) loop = 1 triradius + 1 core = medium energy = water
3) whorl = 2 triradii + 1 core = high energy = fire
4) double loop/double cored whorl = 2 triradii + 2 cores = highest energy = air

(In this sequence the most simple fingerprint type represents the lowest elemental energy: earth, and the most complex fingerprint type represents the highest elemental energy: air)


Richard system includes the points 1, 2 and 3; and in Elemental Chirology includes 1, 2 and 4 (though in Elemental Chirology the elongated whorl is described as 'air and water' + the whorl with a double loop inside is described as 'air and fire'... so this illlustrates that the most complex fingerprint patterns tend to be associated in the elemental system with a combination with the element air!).

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Re: 1 Significant Difference Between 5E System and LP(Life Purpose) System

Post  Kiran.Katawa on Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:33 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
because the tented arch is probably far too rare in order to associate it with fire + in the principle of the graduated materiality fire is not positioned BETWEEN earth and water...!).
Kiran, do you recognize how complex these things really are? (Especially when one starts considering things in a broad perspective!)
The point you say makes sense Martijn. But, these are based on the statistics or observations and not on fundamentals. When I say fundamentals, I am referring to something like No. of tri-radiee or core or anything like this. Yes, you do associate your new theory w.r.t. the no. of cores and the flood gate of complexity opens up!
I do agree very much with you on the complexity of this matter.

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Well Kiran, to me it is obvious that it is quite impossible to combine the principles used in Elemental Chirology combined with the principles used by Richard (or vice versa).
I think, we are in the beginning of this exploration. Though, there is literature on fingerprints, but, this kind of comparision study b/w 5E and RU's system is rare. Though, I don't have any substantial points to say where a common ground can be found, I don't want to go with the - 'impossible' conclusion.
The only thing is, RU might have thot of something and have experienced in his readings that what he says has come out to be correct and its been cross-verified by many of his students too. And same is with 5E system from BCS and its students.

Though not related, just FYI - though not for finger prints, RU does follow elemental principals in hand readings.

Martijn (admin) wrote:
(I think it is basically a matter of using common sense in order to understand the far reaching implications of Richard's 'artificial' principle to start considering the location of the triradius in the perspective of how the fingertip is shared. Because basically, the shape of a fingertip + the relative location of the triradius both do not play any role in the FBI system at all!)
Good point Martijn.

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Do you think you need more detailed info Kiran?
PS. Sorry, I don't understand your comment regarding the logics about how things get on paper; because the 'pushing' on a fingertip will always be decisive for how the fingerprint will get printed on paper.
No Martijn, if it is not essential here then the info is not required. Regarding my comment, What you said was - "because Richard's so-called 'advanced' method for the tented arch can by principle only be applied to the hand directly because the rotation of the finger gets involved... which implicates that one can not apply this to fingerprints on paper "
My doubt was - "Logically, it should be the other way round, that the TA should be possible to be applied(identified) on paper and not on the hand. As on paper, it would appear correctly(as the hand would be placed in 90 degrees) against paper!".
Is my qtn clear now?

Martijn (admin) wrote:
- Richard is using; arch = earth, tented arch = air, loop = water, whorl = fire
- And 5E is using: arch = earth, tented arch = fire, loop = water, whorl = air
I just add 1 more point here:
- Richard is using;
arch = earth,
tented arch = air = WISDOM = meaning/description of (SERVICE)
loop = water,
whorl = fire = SERVICE = meaning/description of (WISDOM)

As Patti always suggests, if we remove the 5E assignments, the descriptions between 5E system and RU system would get in sync. I have to visit the chapters on TA and W in Ronelle's books to comment further.

Martijn (admin) wrote:
1) arch = no triradii + no core = low energy = earth
2) loop = 1 triradius + 1 core = medium energy = water
3) whorl = 2 triradii + 1 core = high energy = fire
4) double loop/double cored whorl = 2 triradii + 2 cores = highest energy = air
And where do you place 1 triradii + no core combination?

Basically, there are 3 differences we are coming across:

1. Elemental assignment between Beath and RU
arch = earth
ta = fire(beath), air(RU)
loop = water
whorl = air (RU), fire(beath).

NOTE: But, both Beath and RU agree on school assignments.

2. School assignments
- And 5E is using:
arch = peace
tented arch = wisdom
loop = love
whorl = service

If we combing schools with 5E, the conflict is apparant as
wisdom, which is assigned with fire element, doesn't resonate correct;
service, which is assigned with air element, doesn't resonate correct.

3. Loop being read as TA based on the tri-radii's positioning.

Patti wrote:Yet, from mostly looking at fingerprints on hands in front of me, I would agree with Richard that the loop with a central triradii is a different creature than the loop with the side triradii. Purkinje placed this pattern between the tented arch and the loop in his set of nine types of prints.
Patti, Want to know whether the positioning of the tri-radii on the surface of the fingertip cause any alterations to the energy the owner feels?
Request other palm readers here to comment on this question.

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Re: 1 Significant Difference Between 5E System and LP(Life Purpose) System

Post  Patti on Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:04 pm

Kiran.Katawa wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:
(I think it is basically a matter of using common sense in order to understand the far reaching implications of Richard's 'artificial' principle to start considering the location of the triradius in the perspective of how the fingertip is shared. Because basically, the shape of a fingertip + the relative location of the triradius both do not play any role in the FBI system at all!)
Good point Martijn.


The FBI system was simplified for common ease of use and absolutely not for character assessment. Galton's earlier system involved looking at what formed between the parting of the ridges on each side of the fingertip. Purkinje's larger number of examples and Galton's ideas were abandoned for Henry's simpler method which clumped several variations into smaller groups.

Interestingly there was a lot of competition in the fields that related to identifying and cataloging body parts in the late 19th Century into the Twentieth. The underlying drive then was eugenics. In the past few decades the driving force to our understanding the development of hands has been largely due to funding from the 'right to life' people. I bring this up because it's important to remember the agenda behind the motives for claims and for labels.

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Re: 1 Significant Difference Between 5E System and LP(Life Purpose) System

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:14 pm


Kiran, I think you and I have a likewise perception regarding the problem you that you spotted in the first post. Thumbs up!

I only think that we should also consider the possibility that Richard and Baeth may not be aware of each other's view point regarding how to connect the fingerprints with the elements.

(Because I have the impression that Baeth is going her own way for quite a while; and she is not directly involved in the IIHA organization like for example Janet is; so, I wouldn't be surprized if Baeth is now aware that Richard is using a different approach regarding the elements)


Kiran.Katawa wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Do you think you need more detailed info Kiran?
PS. Sorry, I don't understand your comment regarding the logics about how things get on paper; because the 'pushing' on a fingertip will always be decisive for how the fingerprint will get printed on paper.
No Martijn, if it is not essential here then the info is not required. Regarding my comment, What you said was - "because Richard's so-called 'advanced' method for the tented arch can by principle only be applied to the hand directly because the rotation of the finger gets involved... which implicates that one can not apply this to fingerprints on paper "
My doubt was - "Logically, it should be the other way round, that the TA should be possible to be applied(identified) on paper and not on the hand. As on paper, it would appear correctly(as the hand would be placed in 90 degrees) against paper!".
Is my qtn clear now?

Yes Kiran, I understand what you are saying.

But I think I have to disagree regarding your suggestion that paper represents a more reliable result - because the 'shape' of any fingerprint on paper will never be exactly the same.

However, I am not suggesting that an observation directly from the hand is more important than a fingerprint on paper. Because my point is actually that I think that both methods should be considered of likewise value... because I think that regarding a fingerprint assessment one should only use assessment methods that present the opportunity to verify a fingerprint assessment via various methods:

- via the hand directly
- via paper
- AND/OR... via a photoscan!

(And therefore I prefer to reject any proposal that a fingerprint assessment via paper is more valuable than a fingerprint assessment directly taken from the hand; because I think the method only works if likewise results are found via all three methods... when applied properly, of course!)

So, the result of all 3 methods should by principle be the same; and if not... then I would advice to make a new assessment via both methods in order to find a likewise result!


Thanks!

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Re: 1 Significant Difference Between 5E System and LP(Life Purpose) System

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:18 pm

Patti wrote:
Kiran.Katawa wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:
(I think it is basically a matter of using common sense in order to understand the far reaching implications of Richard's 'artificial' principle to start considering the location of the triradius in the perspective of how the fingertip is shared. Because basically, the shape of a fingertip + the relative location of the triradius both do not play any role in the FBI system at all!)
Good point Martijn.


The FBI system was simplified for common ease of use and absolutely not for character assessment. Galton's earlier system involved looking at what formed between the parting of the ridges on each side of the fingertip. Purkinje's larger number of examples and Galton's ideas were abandoned for Henry's simpler method which clumped several variations into smaller groups.

Interestingly there was a lot of competition in the fields that related to identifying and cataloging body parts in the late 19th Century into the Twentieth. The underlying drive then was eugenics. In the past few decades the driving force to our understanding the development of hands has been largely due to funding from the 'right to life' people. I bring this up because it's important to remember the agenda behind the motives for claims and for labels.

Patti... Thumb up

(Though I think this goes a little bit beyond the context what we are discussing here; but I appreciate that you want to make us aware that people have a different purpose to make a fingerprint assessment. That is correct indeed.)

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Re: 1 Significant Difference Between 5E System and LP(Life Purpose) System

Post  Patti on Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:22 pm

Thanks!

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Re: 1 Significant Difference Between 5E System and LP(Life Purpose) System

Post  Kiran.Katawa on Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:39 pm

Patti wrote:
Kiran.Katawa wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:
(I think it is basically a matter of using common sense in order to understand the far reaching implications of Richard's 'artificial' principle to start considering the location of the triradius in the perspective of how the fingertip is shared. Because basically, the shape of a fingertip + the relative location of the triradius both do not play any role in the FBI system at all!)
Good point Martijn.


The FBI system was simplified for common ease of use and absolutely not for character assessment. Galton's earlier system involved looking at what formed between the parting of the ridges on each side of the fingertip. Purkinje's larger number of examples and Galton's ideas were abandoned for Henry's simpler method which clumped several variations into smaller groups.

Interestingly there was a lot of competition in the fields that related to identifying and cataloging body parts in the late 19th Century into the Twentieth. The underlying drive then was eugenics. In the past few decades the driving force to our understanding the development of hands has been largely due to funding from the 'right to life' people. I bring this up because it's important to remember the agenda behind the motives for claims and for labels.
Patti, your statement connected many dots in my mind Thumbs up!
This was a statement I was looking for.

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