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Twins with autism The things that stand out in their hands

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Twins with autism The things that stand out in their hands

Post  cnriley45 on Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:54 pm

My boys are fraternal ,left handed ,low functioning nonverbal autistic
The things that are the same with their hand is Their right hand has very small index finger The head line is hard to find... On the left hand small index finger the headline is obvious
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Re: Twins with autism The things that stand out in their hands

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:07 am


Hello cnriley45,

Thanks for sharing your observations.
Maybe you are able to present a photo of their hands?


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twins

Post  cnriley45 on Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:16 am

I will try...I posted photos many years ago on a palmistry message board but I cant seem to find it, The twins are much bigger and stronger now and having their hands messed with is not something they like, but Ill try....I once read that when a couple both have a sydney line they are apt to have twins, This is true for me and my husband, and was for my friend and her spouse ...But we both have children on the autism spectrum .Her children have fragile x...Have you done any study on parents hands that have had twins?
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Re: Twins with autism The things that stand out in their hands

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:16 pm

cnriley45 wrote:I will try...I posted photos many years ago on a palmistry message board but I cant seem to find it, The twins are much bigger and stronger now and having their hands messed with is not something they like, but Ill try....I once read that when a couple both have a sydney line they are apt to have twins, This is true for me and my husband, and was for my friend and her spouse ...But we both have children on the autism spectrum .Her children have fragile x...Have you done any study on parents hands that have had twins?

Aha, nice to hear from you again!

Yes I remember - you reported back than that that you & your friend together have has a lot of fragile-x children and I think you also shared some visual materials.

Unfortunately, the other forum got lost completely after the manager zapped everything into space (for unknown reasons). After this actually happened a few times in a row during a short period of time, I decided to start this forum!

Sorry, I never heard of the Sydney line - twins theory; and I also do not have done any research on the hands of twin-parents. However since about 2 years I do have a major section available at my website about the hand in Fragile-x syndrome, listing 30 hand signs + 2 detailed case studies:

http://www.handresearch.com/diagnostics/simian-line-fragile-x-syndrome.htm




Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

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thank you

Post  cnriley45 on Fri Jul 04, 2014 3:59 pm

Im glad you started this forum :-) ...In your study did he fragile x children have the other physical features ,big ears ,long faces, ect?.. My twins have been tested for fragile x and it came back negitive,They do not have the physical feature except they are both flat footed, My friends children all 6 have alot of the physical features...Thank you for the link I look forward to reading it
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Re: Twins with autism The things that stand out in their hands

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:59 pm

cnriley45 wrote:Im glad you started this forum :-) ...In your study did he fragile x children have the other physical features ,big ears ,long faces, ect?.. My twins have been tested for fragile x and it came back negitive,They do not have the physical feature except they are both flat footed, My friends children all 6 have alot of the physical features...Thank you for the link I look forward to reading it

Well, the 2 cases that I present on my website indeed do have some of the other physical characteristics (though I have not much details available regarding body markers beyond their hands). But this may not be the case in every case of fragile x-syndrome.

Anyway, I think if the genetic testing is a positive then it doesn't matter if most typical characteristics are missing.

I hope this is helpful?

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Re: Twins with autism The things that stand out in their hands

Post  cnriley45 on Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:59 pm

The reason I was asking is I was under the impression that the physical features of fragile x are quite telling ,not as obvious as downs but I have not met a whole lot of fragile x people so I was curious as to the studies you have done....I do see the flipside in the autism community where the parents say their child is autistic ,and I see the traits of fragile x in their child and wonder if they have been tested...I noticed on your diagnostics picture the index fingers are not small , I have seen the small index finger in quite a few autistic hands is this not as common in fragile x
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Re: Twins with autism The things that stand out in their hands

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:13 pm

cnriley45 wrote:The reason I was asking is I was under the impression that the physical features of fragile x are quite telling ,not as obvious as downs but I have not met a whole lot of fragile x people so I was curious as to the studies you have done....I do see the flipside in the autism community where the parents say their child is autistic ,and I see the traits of fragile x in their child and wonder if they have been tested...I noticed on your diagnostics picture the index fingers are not small , I have seen the small index finger in quite a few autistic hands is this not as common in fragile x

Yes, in autism a low 2D:4D digit ratio (short index finger versus ring finger) is a common feature; However, unfortunately it appears that so far there has not been any 2D:4D digit ratio study focussed on fragile-x syndrome. But in the 2 cases that I have assessed by detail the index fingers can not be described as short, nor is there evidence of a clearly low 2D:4D digit ratio.

So, I think it remains so far unclear whether short index fingers in Fragile-X people have likewise significance as short index fingers in autism; still, it is an interesting option to keep in mind... but so far there is no solid evidence at all.

Thanks!


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Re: Twins with autism The things that stand out in their hands

Post  Lynn on Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:48 pm

hello cnriley45, nice to see you here Smile
I remember you posting in the previous palmistry group, about your twins, autism, fragile x etc. Welcome!  wave 

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Re: Twins with autism The things that stand out in their hands

Post  cnriley45 on Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:17 am

Thats interesting..I wish my friend still lived close to me but she moved a few years back , I would of had 6 sets of hands to look at :-)...My youngest nonautistic son does not have a low 2D:4D digit ratio
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Hi Lynn

Post  cnriley45 on Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:18 am

Thank you for the welcome :-)
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Re: Twins with autism The things that stand out in their hands

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:51 am

cnriley45 wrote:Thats interesting..I wish my friend still lived close to me but she moved a few years back , I would of had 6 sets of hands to look at :-)...My youngest nonautistic son does not have a low 2D:4D digit ratio

That could be a clue, especially if the physical development of your youngest son is not really different from the autistic boys.

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Re: Twins with autism The things that stand out in their hands

Post  cnriley45 on Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:21 pm

My non autistic son is different physically in some sense as to being right handed and not flat footed He also seems to be average as far as teeth go , The twins teeth growth seems to be a bit slow they will be 18 this month and their 12 year old molars have yet to come in
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Re: Twins with autism The things that stand out in their hands

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:10 pm

cnriley45 wrote:My non autistic son is different physically in some sense as to being right handed and not flat footed He also seems to be average as far as teeth go , The twins teeth growth seems to be a bit slow they will be 18 this month and their 12 year old molars have yet to come in

Thanks. I have been thinking about Fragile-x syndrome at little more, and I just became aware that it is also about twice more prevalent among boys (compared to girls). I think this raises the chances that in Fragile-x syndrome the 2d:4d digit ratio is typically smaller than in family members - though I think there is no research available at all.

Maybe you can share a few more details regarding the 2d:4d digit ratios inside the other family members? For example: are the ratios of the other family members all above 0.93? (I am asking this in the perspective that the photos in the other topic suggest that in your two boys the 2d:4d digit ratio is clearly below 0.90)



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Re: Twins with autism The things that stand out in their hands

Post  cnriley45 on Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:42 pm

My non autistic sons fingers look simular to mine ..the index finger is a tad longer than ring finger ..ill look at husbands hands and let you know what I see
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Re: Twins with autism The things that stand out in their hands

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:26 am

cnriley45 wrote:My non autistic sons fingers look simular to mine ..the index finger is a tad longer than ring finger ..ill look at husbands hands and let you know what I see

Okay, thanks.

By the way, 2d:4d digit ratio requires a measurement from the creases (separating the fingers from the palm). It would be slightly abnormal if all your non autistic boys would have a 2d:4d digit ratio higher than 1.00. Anyway, your descriptions sounds quite like their finger proportions are quite different from the autistic boys.


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non autistic son

Post  cnriley45 on Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:17 am

I see what you mean ..Even though he is not autistic he is a 14 year old boy who is not interested in me looking at his hands so when I did it was from the back and just a quick look ...I did get him to let me scan his hands (told him that I would stop bothering him to look at his hands if i had a scan lol)
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Re: Twins with autism The things that stand out in their hands

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:08 am

Thanks for the scan of your other boy.

His digit ratio is indeed much higher (close to 0.93) than the Fragile-x autistic boys, however for a white american boy it is actually (also) below average. Anyway, this confirms your observation that your non-Fragile-x son non-autistic son does appear to have a much higher 2d:4d digit ratio than your other sons... at least regarding the right hand (in one of the Fragile-x autistic boys the left hand appears to ;have a high 2d:4d digit ratio, see the observation that I shared inside the  other discussion).

Interesting, as this is the very first evidence that I have seen which points in the direction that Fragile-x syndrome (just like autism) is likely indeed featured with a low 2d:4d digit ratio (compared to family members).


This evidence would become stronger if the father of the Fragile-x boys also has a digit ratio that is clearly higher than the digit ratio seen in the Fragile-x boys.

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PS. Also, interesting to see that the pinky finger & head lines appear to be ordinary in the non-Fragile-x boy non-autistic boy.


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:57 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Twins with autism The things that stand out in their hands

Post  cnriley45 on Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:10 pm

My twins do not have fragile X ...But I dont know if you have seen the article on a new gene they have discovered to be in quite a few autistic people ,there is other physical features that go with it and my twins have some of the traits , Im hoping to get them tested
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Re: Twins with autism The things that stand out in their hands

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:55 pm

cnriley45 wrote:My twins do not have fragile X ...But I dont know if you have seen the article on a new gene they have discovered to be in quite a few autistic people ,there is other physical features that go with it and my twins have some of the traits , Im hoping to get them tested

Aha, sorry... then I did not process your info correctly (but now I do understand that only the kids of your moved friend have Fragile-x syndrome).

I have corrected my previous posts in this topic in response!

 Thanks! 

PS. According my experience Fragile-x syndrome is much more easy to assess from then hand than autism, though one can expect a considerable overlap regarding the hand characteristics seen in both disorders (especially when autism is combined with a mental handicap).

Earlier today I found an interesting 2000 study which e.g. reports the following 3 hand features to represent clue for Fragile-x syndrome:

http://www.sxf.uevora.pt/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Lachiewicz_2000.pdf

"15. Soft skin over the dorsum of the head
16. Hand calluses
17. Hyperextensible metacarpophalangeal joints"


Would be interesting to hear of your autistic boys have these characteristics?

By the way, 'tactile defensiveness', 'hand biting', 'hand flapping', 'simian/Sydney line', and a 'high axial triradius' are other hand features that are mentioned inside the article. I expect to update my Fragile-x article with at least 2 new hand features in the near future.

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Re: Twins with autism The things that stand out in their hands

Post  cnriley45 on Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:19 am

The hand biting was never a problem for my boys ,,they bit me lol...But I did see it on my neighbors children ( Their fingers were chewed on bad) ....My twins wiggled there hands in front of their eyes but I dont know if that was just a visual stimulation....My neighbors kids reminded me of little humming birds from the way they would flap their hands....I have to look up the meaning of the more technical stuff you mentioned and Ill let you know
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husbands hands

Post  cnriley45 on Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:13 pm

He is 44 left handed
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