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Photo of hands of 17 yr old twins with nonverbal autism

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Photo of hands of 17 yr old twins with nonverbal autism

Post  cnriley45 on Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:36 am

I managed to get a scan(this is the best out of 4) and a photo..this is left hand


Last edited by cnriley45 on Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:47 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : updating title)
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this is right hand

Post  cnriley45 on Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:41 am

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Re: Photo of hands of 17 yr old twins with nonverbal autism

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:56 pm

Thumb up 

Wow, in both of your autistic sons the pinky finger is even slightly longer than the index finger - quite unusual!!!

And the 2d:4d digit ratio appears to be far below 0.90.

And both appears to have a 'wavy' head line

Do you or any of the other direct family members have one of those three traits???

Anyway, Thanks for sharing those photos!!!  Thumbs up!


PS. You might also want to check the dermatoglyphics below the fingers, can you spot the so-called 'triradii'? (Though this might take very good eye-sight to spot any unusual characteristics such as missing triradii - which is one of the most common unusual dermatoglyphic traits in Fragile-x syndrome)

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Re: Photo of hands of 17 yr old twins with nonverbal autism

Post  cnriley45 on Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:38 pm

The pictures I have posted are all from the oldest twin (by six minutes)....Im still working on getting the other twin to let me do his hands but he has the same 2D4D and weird head line
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Other twins left hand

Post  cnriley45 on Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:41 am

He kept pulling back his fingers ,so not the best photo
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other twin right hand

Post  cnriley45 on Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:44 am

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Re: Photo of hands of 17 yr old twins with nonverbal autism

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:19 am


Even though the right hand of the 2nd twin boy also has a very low 2d:4d digit ratio (0.86?), the photo left hand of the 2nd twin boys appears to have a digit ratio above 1.00 (though maybe the angle of the camera is not good enough to make a precise estimate???)... which is actually very high for a white American boy (and in the left hand it appears to be longer than the 2d:4d digit ratios of your non-autistic boy).

Right hand pinky finger also appears very long (though shorter than the index finger), left hand pinky finger appears much shorter (it can likely even be described to be 'short').

But the left hand does have a curve inside the head line.


 Thanks! 

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Re: Photo of hands of 17 yr old twins with nonverbal autism

Post  cnriley45 on Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:03 pm

I will try and get him to let me scan his hands ...my camera did seem to distort the angle a bit...His head line is different than(norm) hopefully the scan will pick it up....I remember when I first posted to the other forum years ago, I honestly thought they didnt have a head lines in their right hand , at least now they have something there ..The twins are very different in their  personalities and their sensorary issues ..


Last edited by cnriley45 on Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:26 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : fixed sentence)
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husbands hands

Post  cnriley45 on Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:11 pm

He is left handed
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Re: Photo of hands of 17 yr old twins with nonverbal autism

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:06 pm

cnriley45 wrote:He is left handed

Thanks again for your efforts!  Thumb up 

Yes, the father appears to have a likewise digit ratio as seen in the hands of the non-autistic son.


At this stage I only have one question left to answer:

The left hand in one of the autistic boys appears to indicate that he has a much higher 2d:4d digit ratio compared to all other family members (see below), Would you mind to check if this is really the case... or whether maybe the photo gave an incorrection impression?

(Maybe you can make a new 'frontal' photo of his left hand?)



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Not the best he kept lifting fingers..second twin scan

Post  cnriley45 on Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:17 am

second twins hand scan
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to complete the family this is my daughters

Post  cnriley45 on Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:25 am

she is left handed non autistic
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Re: Photo of hands of 17 yr old twins with nonverbal autism

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:52 am

cnriley45 wrote: second twins hand scan

Thanks! Interesting to see that this new photo confirms your initial report that in the autistic twins the 2d:4d digit ratios are much shorter (in both hands).

I think this allows the conclusion: inside your family the 2d:4d digit ratios seen in the autistic twins are clearly much lower compared to the (non-autistic) family members... which obviously confirms the theory!

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Re: Photo of hands of 17 yr old twins with nonverbal autism

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:58 am

cnriley45 wrote:she is left handed non autistic

PS. Your daughter's 2d:4d digit ratios are above 1.0, which is similar to your left hand digit ratio; so, the female members of your family also have much higher values than the male members... though I should add that this is actually a perfectly normal tendency.

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headline

Post  cnriley45 on Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:30 am

what do you make of the little wiggly head lines in both the twins right hands?
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Re: Photo of hands of 17 yr old twins with nonverbal autism

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:47 am

cnriley45 wrote:what do you make of the little wiggly head lines in both the twins right hands?

Good point! Though, it is hard to see the details from the photos... I remember from the past that in my autism research a 'strong curve' inside some part of the head line (which e.g. requires to be stronger than the curve in any part of the life line) has been a featured that appeared to have some significance in autism.

Though I would like to add that this point is likely less significant for autism than the low 2d:4d digit ratio - because this 'extraordinary curved head line' feature is only present in some minor part of the ASD population.

Maybe there is a higher significance for this feature in non-verbal autism???


PS. The significance of this point is that the normal tendency is to see that the curve inside the head line is less compared to curve seen in the life line (which has a natural tendency to have a stronger curve than the head line).

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Re: Photo of hands of 17 yr old twins with nonverbal autism

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:06 pm


PPS. I just noticed that you described the autistic twins to be left-handed... you mentioned that your husband is also left-handed: is he the only other left-handed family member?

Just asking because 'left-handedness' is also known for it's higher prevalence in autism, but this implicates that we now have found 4 features in 3 different dimensions of the hand: motorics (left-handedness), fingers (extraordinary low 2d:4d digit ratio: <0.90, clinodactyly: curved pinky fingers), and hand lines (extraordinary curved head line).

This combination is likely more often seen in ASD populations (my estimate would be maybe 5% up to 10%), but for sure... it's a very rare combination in non-autistic populations (my estimate would be less than 0.1%)!


And we haven't even considered the dermatoglyphics (e.g. fingerprints)!

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Re: Photo of hands of 17 yr old twins with nonverbal autism

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:45 pm

cheers  

Holy-menoly...!!!

Guess what? The autistic twins also have another very extraordinary feature in the index fingers of both of their hands:

The hand scans show that the twins show in both hands that the total length of the two lower phalanges of the index finger together are about equal to the total length of the two lower phalanges in the pinky finger, in one of the twins those pinky phalanges together are actually longer than the phalanges in the index finger!!

None of the other family members have this feature, but actually... I am not sure how rare this feature is because I have never seen any person/source talking about this characteristic, but this is for sure a very rare extraordinary feature!


Also, I don't want to exclude here the possibility that this feature is more likely to represent a feature of a mental handicap than a feature in autistic spectrum disorder???

I have just checked my ASD hand collection: there is one ASD person who has this feature in one of his hands, just 1 mm in short to qualify for this feature (lower phalanges of index finger < lower phalanges of pinky finger) - by the way, this concerns a case of 'verbal autism' with IQ well above 100.

Fascinating!

 Very Happy 

PS. I have just also checked my hand collections for Down syndrome and low IQ: none of those persons come even close to meeting this finger phalanges criterium! So, at first sight it represents more likely a feature in autism than a sign for a mental handicap... the high IQ 'verbal autism' case appears to confirm this!

PPS. The fragile-x syndrome samples that I have also do NOT have this feature.

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Re: Photo of hands of 17 yr old twins with nonverbal autism

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:18 pm


I think it should become rewarding to work with a 95% criterium regarding this feature... because both twins + the normal IQ autism case would for both hands qualify for the following criterium:

length of the 2 lower phalanges pinky finger > 95% of length of the 2 lower phalanges index finger

(For practical purpose one might also work with a 2mm criterium when hands are measured on real size scale: the lower phalanges of the pinky finger together should then be no more than 2mm shorter than the lower phalanges of the index finger)


PS. All three autism cases who meet this criterium for both hands also have a 2d:4d digit ratio below 0.90 in both hands... so the pinky finger criterium gives a clue that in autism the index finger is not only short relative to the ring finger, it is likely also very short to the other fingers!

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wow

Post  cnriley45 on Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:06 am

All your research is truly fascinating , Im still real curious about that new gene study they have found in autism , if I ever am able to get my boys tested Ill let you know the results...My daughter is also left handed ...I will try to get the twins fingerprints , I hope you are able to get some more hand prints of other autistic people
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Re: Photo of hands of 17 yr old twins with nonverbal autism

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:45 pm

cnriley45 wrote:All your research is truly fascinating , Im still real curious about that new gene study they have found in autism , if I ever am able to get my boys tested Ill let you know the results...My daughter is also left handed ...I will try to get the twins fingerprints , I hope you are able to get some more   hand prints of other autistic people

Interesting, I had not heard about that new earlier this month!

However, I think this breakthrough report regarding an autism-gene appears to have very limited value for far most people who have autism; because this CHD8 gene is only recognized to represent basically a fundamental breakthrough... for it can actually be expected to be present in about 0.5% of all cases who have autism, see:
http://www.cell.com/pb/assets/raw/journals/research/cell/Online%20Now%20PDfs/cell7630_r.pdf

(Only 15 ASD children out of "3,730 children with developmental delay or ASD" have the gene, but the gene was also found in 5 children without ASD... 4 out of 5 of have intellectual disability, so this new study also suggests that autism also in this context has a similarity with a more general cognitive handicap.)

So, no need to strive for genetic testing regarding that CHD8 gene. The breakthrough relates e.g. to the fact that in fragile-x syndrome the autistic behavior does not stand on it's own (because it is usually featured with a mental handicap, especially in boys)... while the CHD8 gene concerns an issue that has so far basically solely been associated with autism, not with mental disorders.


PS. So far I have a collection of 31 ASD hand prints (excluding the fragile-x syndrome cases).

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