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The final word on handshapes?

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Re: The final word on handshapes?

Post  Lynn on Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:09 pm

yogiman wrote:Sorry for the late reply, but I feel terrribly lazy at the moment.Thanks, Lynn, for taking so much effort, but I have to disappoint you. The metal hand should be the most materialistic of the whole bunch, and is described as the psychic hand of the sevenfold system. I get the impression that Gettings wanted to discredit all other systems for handshapes, before promoting his own one. I really would like to support you both, but honesty prevents me from it. I still think that the rounded and spatulated handshapes should be included. Maybe the system of d'arpigney should be refined, not in the least because it is including the 4 archetypes of the handyman, philosopher, artist and psychic. You could object that this is represented by the elements of earth, air, fire and water respectively in a broad sense, but my feeling is that the former is designed on basis of observation.

Something that I cannot fit in whatever system is that Einstein has an earth hand, whereas he was clearly a thinker.

It doesn't disappoint me yogiman, because I don't use this system of taoist Chinese elements, I know nothing about it. What does disappoint me a little is that you don't answer some of the questions I've asked you, to try and understand better what you are saying.

With regard to above book, it says "the five shapes....are fire, water, earth, wood and gold (or metal)." Is gold interchangeable for metal in this system? If so it gives a different interpretation for gold than metal.

You said that your girlfriend's spatulate handshape is ignored. Rounded and spatulate handshapes are included in the elemental system that I use, as a secondary analysis, depending on which quadrants are eroded.

Yes D'Arpentigny's system was based on observations (as was the element system). D'Arpentigny started his quest after noticing that the hands of military men were different from those of artists and poets. However, your girlfriend's hand is completely ignored in D'Arpntigny's system, in fact all women's hands are ignored,  because he devised it for use only on the hands of men.

Just because someone has an earth hand, doesn't mean they don't think! Depending on which picture you look at, Einstein's hands are more fire/earth combination (which is a good combination for science). He does have very short fingers, which brings a fast, more instinctive, intuitive way of thinking, ability to see the whole picture. He got most of his ideas and theories in his dreams or imagination, the maths came later. Look to his headline for his manner of thinking.

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Re: The final word on handshapes?

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:24 pm

yogiman wrote:Sorry for the late reply, but I feel terrribly lazy at the moment.Thanks, Lynn, for taking so much effort, but I have to disappoint you. The metal hand should be the most materialistic of the whole bunch, and is described as the psychic hand of the sevenfold system. I get the impression that Gettings wanted to discredit all other systems for handshapes, before promoting his own one. I really would like to support you both, but honesty prevents me from it. I still think that the rounded and spatulated handshapes should be included. Maybe the system of d'arpigney should be refined, not in the least because it is including the 4 archetypes of the handyman, philosopher, artist and psychic. You could object that this is represented by the elements of earth, air, fire and water respectively in a broad sense, but my feeling is that the former is designed on basis of observation.

Something that I cannot fit in whatever system is that Einstein has an earth hand, whereas he was clearly a thinker.

Sorry yogiman, beyond the fact that you haven't explained the foundation of your association regarding 'metal' & 'earth'... your association actually does not make much sense for multiple reasons:

1) Various authors (e.g. Gardini) associate the metal hand with the so-called 'psychic hand' (e.g. long, tapering fingers + very small thumb, soft hand) in Carus' system of hand shape classification, see: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22metal+hand%22&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1&gws_rd=ssl#q=%22metal+hand%22+%22long%2C+tapering%22&tbm=bks

2) The 5  taoist elements represent 'phases' of 'process and change', and thus the element metal should not get associated to represent the physical characteristics of metal; metal is supposed to represent the 'shiny' aspect... just like snow & ice, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Xing#Cosmology_and_feng_shui

3) if we compare the 5 Taotist elements (earth, water, fire, wood, metal) with the 5 classic elements (earth, water, fire, air & ether) then 'metal' comes most closely to the most immaterial element 'ether'; this illustrates how the metal hand became associated with the psychic hand.

So your association for metal with 'earth' very likely has no grounds at all.


PS. The proportions of both of Einstein's hands indicate that his hand shape actually comes most close to the fire hand shape (or fire/earth hand shape).

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Re: The final word on handshapes?

Post  yogiman on Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:14 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
1) Various authors (e.g. Gardini) associate the metal hand with the so-called 'psychic hand' (e.g. long, tapering fingers + very small thumb, soft hand) in Carus' system of hand shape classification, see: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22metal+hand%22&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1&gws_rd=ssl#q=%22metal+hand%22+%22long%2C+tapering%22&tbm=bks

2) The 5  taoist elements represent 'phases' of 'process and change', and thus the element metal should not get associated to represent the physical characteristics of metal; metal is supposed to represent the 'shiny' aspect... just like snow & ice, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Xing#Cosmology_and_feng_shui

3) if we compare the 5 Taotist elements (earth, water, fire, wood, metal) with the 5 classic elements (earth, water, fire, air & ether) then 'metal' comes most closely to the most immaterial element 'ether'; this illustrates how the metal hand became associated with the psychic hand.



PS. The proportions of both of Einstein's hands indicate that his hand shape actually comes most close to the fire hand shape (or fire/earth hand shape).[/color]

Hi Martijn, at least your are a good sport.

1) Very likely there was some 'rumour' going, and this was picked up by the peers.

2)In anyway this is not true for shapes, because in both face reading and feng shui they are related to tree, fire, earth, metal and water. One could argue that shape is something non-tangible.

The successive 'elements' represent the steps in the natural cycle of things. For example, gold lies dormant in the ground (water), is extricated by mining (rising, wood), goes into the oven  (fire), is going to melt (earth), and gets solid (metal), and the way  it will turn back to the ground eventually you may speculate about.

Another perspective is this:
fire and water are opposites
metal and wood (or rather tree are opposites)
tree represents nature, metal represents culture.

In it's most elevated state metal is silver or gold. That's why the tiger is it's symbol with his white stripes and light brown color. And metal is heavy, that's why it is referred to autumn (leaves falling) and sunset (the devouring tiger).

Now the cardinal earth. Earth is represented by the fertile ground(2), the mountain(8), and qi in which case it is called earth 5 and is in the centre of the Lo Shu diagram. And this is  really funny. The west has got 4 stable elements, while china has got 5 transformation phases. However, the spiritual essence is for the west heavenly (aether), and for the chinese earthly (earth 5). Even in this case we see a miraculous balance.

3) So to the chinese earth is equal to aether, the opposites meet each other.

PS There is a lot of apologizing.

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Re: The final word on handshapes?

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:18 pm


So many more strange 'associations'.... for example: it doesn't make any sense to me see you argue that "shape is something non-tangible" (2), which in a way even sounds quite irrational to me; and regarding "chinese earth is equal to ether" (3), rather strange to see you make such a point in the perspective of the fact that the chinese actually also use the 'earth element'.

I think this all appears to reflect your personal system of perceptions, unfortunately you exhibit little interest to substantiate anything at all... which could explain why you have putten little value (I think so far you basically disqualified everything except your own 'associations') to any of the sources & materials mentioned by others inside this topic... except for the so-called 'scientific' claims made at the 500 hand project (while I recognize those claims to be fairly unrealistic).


 scratch

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Re: The final word on handshapes?

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:25 pm


By the way, there is actually a scientific model for hand shape assessment available which sort of underlines the significance of the fundamental characteristics of the earth and water handshape.

This concerns a model based on the so-called 'hand index', which is based on the ratio of hand breadth (or palm breadth) [HB] to hand length [HL]; the 5 hand shapes recognized in this model are:

- Hyperdolichocheri (hdch): HB/HL < 40.9 ( = very long/narrow hand shape) => Water hand shape qualifies for this criterium!
- Dolichocheri (dch): HB/HL = 41.0-43.9 ( = long/narrow hand shape)
- Mesocheri (mch): HB/HL = 44.0-46.9 ( = ordinary hand shape) => Medium hand shape qualifies for this criterium!
- Brachycheri (bch): HB/HL = 47.0-49.9 ( = short/broad hand shape)
- Hyperbrachycheri (hbch): HB/HL > 50.0 ( = very short/broad hand shape) => Earth hand shape qualifies for this criterium!

But there are very few articles available where this approach to 'hand shape' is described, to mention a few:

2013 article: http://www.readcube.com/articles/10.4314/ijest.v5i1.5
2011 article: http://maxwellsci.com/print/ajms/v3-146-150.pdf
1942 article: http://www.oandplibrary.org/al/pdf_raw/1955_02_raw.pdf

(Additionally, there are literally hundreds of studies where the 'hand index' was used to study hand shape!)

NOTE: The word 'cheri' refers to the hand; 'brachy' to short shaped & 'dolicho' to long shaped... therefore the term 'brachycheri' refers to a short shaped hand, and 'dolichocheri' refers to a long shaped hand.

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Re: The final word on handshapes?

Post  yogiman on Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:12 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:[color=brown]
So many more strange 'associations'.... for example: it doesn't make any sense to me see you argue that "shape is something non-tangible" (2), which in a way even sounds quite irrational to me; and regarding "chinese earth is equal to ether" (3), rather strange to see you make such a point in the perspective of the fact that the chinese actually also use the 'earth element'.

Sorry Martijn, but my status quo feels attacked. The remark that 'shape is something non-tangible' was not necessary, but also not necessarily untrue. What I mean is that shape is disconnected from matter, as it can be in your imagination, or be put within a mathematical formula.

It is the dantien, the point at the navel, that roots us to the earth. But it also the place where the qi is stored. Likely you have to think in terms of the prima materia of the alchemists.

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