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Amateur comments (?) of christopher jones in his hand reading website.

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Re: Amateur comments (?) of christopher jones in his hand reading website.

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Nov 06, 2010 12:09 pm

stalin.v wrote:
p.s to martijn,

Can you put up our recent discussion that done by me and manfred, in appropriate forum by title it " Origin of astro-palmistry''

Hi Stalin,

You're welcome to create the new topic & make the first post! (Afterwards I cam see what I can copy, etc. - but please also make a more specific reference of what you want to be copied)

wave

PS. My suggestion would be to create this new topic in the NEW forum section Vd:
http://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/vd-does-palmistry-have-it-s-roots-in-astrology-f40/

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Re: Amateur comments (?) of christopher jones in his hand reading website.

Post  Lynn on Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:19 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:PS. You better ALWAYS add the page/paragraph; if you expect that this might actually create a problem (when multiple prints are available), then you can at least name the 'Chapter' where you have taken the quote!!

But in general, you better also ALWAYS mention the page where you found YOUR quote - otherwise your quote will formally become 'incomplete'!!
Thanks!

(I did say - the chapter on the thumb. But omitted the page as it is different in the 2 versions I have)
Ok I have edited some of my posts to include better references.


Last edited by Lynn on Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Amateur comments (?) of christopher jones in his hand reading website.

Post  sv-b on Sat Nov 06, 2010 5:20 pm

stalin.v wrote:Hello lynn, Smile

Your arguments are still negligible. Because, Cheiro, Being an author of palmistry books, can give references from various authors. But, you could hardly give single references from his work so far and claim that cheiro followed the french palmistry. But, The own statement of the cheiro in the same book, "Language of the hand" represents that how much deeply he was influenced by indian palmistry and practiced those knowledge through out his life.

Wikepedia link shows that he got the only influence from indian bramin which helped him for all his contribution on occult sciences. (No other influence was mentioned)

Here is the quote.
" As mentioned in his memoirs, Cheiro acquired his expertise in India. As a teenager, he traveled to the bombay port of apollo bunder. There, he met his Guru (master), an Indian Bramin, who took him to his village in the valley of the konkan region of Maharashtra. After studying thoroughly for two years. He returned to london and started his career as a palmist".

Lynn, Hope you will be recovered from your ignorance soon.

courtesy: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheiro?wasRedirected=true


Hello lynn, Smile

Benham theory and french palmist theories are under waiting list. if you reply for my above answer, i can prove the value of 19th century french palmists as well. Christopher claim on indian palmistry seems mere joke now. Don't you feel it?

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Re: Amateur comments (?) of christopher jones in his hand reading website.

Post  Lynn on Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:22 pm

I'm not sure what you are waiting for Stalin?
Which of Christopher's claims on indian palmistry do you think are a mere joke?

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Re: Amateur comments (?) of christopher jones in his hand reading website.

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:30 pm

Lynn wrote: "It is D'Arpentigny who has said "The thumb individualises the man" This is remarkably true, particularly when one follows out Sir Charles Bell's discovery that in the hand of the chimpanzee, which is the nearest approach to the human, though well formed in every way, yet the thumb, if measured, does not reach the base of the first finger."

Hi Lynn,

(This is a long reply, but this is an attempt to explain to you why this discussion became what is have become!)

First of all...

Yes, obviously: your quote (above) proofs that Cheiro was VERY aware of d'Arpentigny's work!!

But there is much more proof in Cheiro's major book that he was by fact highly influenced by d'Arpentigny: because you and I are both aware that it was d'Arpentigny who invented the model of the 7 handtypes!

(Basically, so far in this discussion ... Stalin did not show any signal that he was aware of the importance of d'Arpentigny's work - and this might actually explain why this discussion arrived at this forum!!)


And obviously, d'Arpentigny's model of the 7 hand types has become one of the major elements in the section 'Cheirognomy' which Cheiro described in his most important work: "Cheiro's Language of the Hand".

By the way, it is also important here to notice that d'Arpentigny started using the word 'Cheirognomy' (edit) in his work 'La Chirognomie' (1839). And obviously, the name Cheiro is a direct destillated from the words 'Cheiromancy' and 'Cheirognomy'

(Lynn, I am quite sure that this is not new for you - my first point was only to confirm your point: Cheiro was indeed very aware of the work of d'Arpentigny, and we can find this confirmed in a large part of his work!).


Second, the Wikipedia page about Cheiro's life correctly describes:

"As mentioned in his memoirs, Cheiro acquired his expertise in India. As a teenager, he traveled to the Bombay port of Apollo Bunder. There, he met his Guru, an Indian Brahmin, who took him to his village in the valley of the Konkan region of Maharashtra. After studying thoroughly for two years, he returned to London and started his career as a palmist."

However... Stalin's conclusion from this page:

"Wikepedia link shows that he [Cheiro] got the only influence from Indian bramin which helped him for all his contribution on occult sciences. (No other influence was mentioned)"

... is simply: nonsense!

Because... Cheiro's use of the d'Arpentigny model PROOFS that Cheiro's work was for sure influenced very by Western hand readers as well!! (While Stalin's claims that Cheiro was ONLY under the influence of Indian tranditions - but the various elements which Cheiro took from d'Arpentigny's work proof that Stalin's claim is not true at all.)


By the way, it is actually quite funny how Stalin uses 'the picture of Cheiro's room' as an argument to convince you that Cheiro was only influenced by the Indian approach.


Third, I have noticed another important 'incorrect' element in Stalin's comment, for Stalin writes:

"Thanks for highlighting the word in specific. Does it mean that there was predictive palmistry practice done by west around 19th century. if so, can you name some of such books? I know only cheiro and benham.. But, these two are again the by-product of india."

Lynn, I think Stalin's words sort of indicate that Stalin's problem is basically that he has not enough knowledge regarding this history of western palmistry in the 19th century (= the VIctorian period: 1837-1901). For, to understand the background of the work of Cheiro, it is for sure important to be aware of the works of the two Frenchmen that dominated western palmistry in the 19th century: d'Arpentigny & Desbarrolles.

Stalin's question indicates that Stalin was probably not really aware of the importance of the work of these 2 Frenchman!!


And finally, I have spotted another problem ... Stalin wrote much more nonsense:

"I too have claimed that the works of french palmists were copied from indian palmistry as it has been practiced by Vedic astro-palmists milleneum of years. Hence, frence palmists followed by cheiro and benham are by-product of india. I have proved already that how the own statement of cheiro validates the claim that he is one of the descendant of indian palmistry. Same claim is applicable to benham. Because, cheiro is a senior of benham. Hence, Without the references of cheiro's work, benham might not formulate his own idea. It is the common view of any historian. In additional, Benham have mentioned about astrological sign on palm. It again proves that benham was another descendant of indian palmistry. His method of reading heart line too resembles the classic indian palmistry."

Where did Stalin's present proof for these 3 statements???

My answer is simple: Stalin's has not presented any single word of 'proof' for these statements!!

For example, I think Stalin's claim that Cheiro was a 'senior' of Benham is quite silly!! Cheiro was not even mentioned at all in 'The Benham Book of Palmistry'!! And Benham's book can be described as a combination of the writings of d'Arpentigny & Desbarrolles + Benham add his own observations that he made over the years: Benham tried to make a science out of handreading - while Cheiro only fouled-around with the 'mystery' called palmistry!


So, basically: the major problem in this discussion is that Stalin has made various 'firm claims'... from a few words that he red in incomplete sources!! (such as the wikipedia page about Cheiro's life that he mentioned).

Stalin's continous stream of new questions (combined with that Stalin did not answer most of your questions) indicates that he has simply not enough knowledge about the history of Western palmistry to build a 'constructive discussion'!


And I think this sort proofs that Stalin's choice for the title of this discussion ... only display his own 'handicap': Stalin simply doesn't have enough knowledge about the history of Western palmistry to understand Christopher's writings - probably because he doesn't have access to the other books that present more details about the history of Western palmistry (such as the books by Gettings & Fitzherbert).


So at the end, I think Stalin's title choice for this discussion may very well reflect his inability to understand Christopher's words. But I should add here that I do recognize that Christopher's choice of words was not always very 'polite' (towards the Indians) - so that could play another part in how this discussion arrived at this forum.


Lynn, does this answer at least some of your questions??? Wink


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:05 pm; edited 4 times in total

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Re: Amateur comments (?) of christopher jones in his hand reading website.

Post  Lynn on Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:18 am

Yes thank you Martijn. I apologise for my frustration on this thread.
I was aware from Stalin's question "Does it mean that there was predictive palmistry practice done by west around 19th century. if so, can you name some of such books? I know only cheiro and benham...."

that stalin had little knowledge of this history of western palmistry in the 19th century, which is why I referred him back to the page about Victorian palmistry, on the best website that describes this history. But that is Christopher's website and unfortunately stalin had already chosen not to believe some of the things that Christopher writes.

Stalin said
you could hardly give single references from his work so far and claim that cheiro followed the french palmistry.
Stalin, I showed you the translation of D’Arpentigny’s book and asked you to read the chapter on the thumb and compare it with Cheiro’s chapter on the thumb. Also to look at the list of handshapes in both books. If you read it, you would notice that Cheiro was very influenced by D’Arpentigny.

Maybe you can give some examples from Cheiro's books that show the influence of Indian palmists in Cheiro’s palmistry interpretations?


Last edited by Lynn on Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:47 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Amateur comments (?) of christopher jones in his hand reading website.

Post  Lynn on Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:27 am

Here are some quotes from other books, that are relevant to this discussion.

Francis King “Palmistry, Your Fate and Fortune in your Hands” page 8
“….classification of handshapes was made by the 19th century palmist Casimir D’Arpentigny. This was the system used by Cheiro.

Linda Lee, James Charlton “The Hand Book”
“We have the seven hand classifications of Count Louis Hamon or "Cheiro" (1894), who simply copied the earlier classifications of D'Arpentigny (1843): “

Nathaniel Altman “The Book of Palmistry” Page 21
“The system of handshapes we will be using in this book is based partly on the “six hand types” introduced by Cheiro (1866 – 1936), the famous Victorian palmist and seer. He based his system on one developed by the French palmist Captain Stanislaus D’Arpentigny whose book “The Science of the Hand”, translated by Ed. Heron-Allen, was published in London and New York in 1886.”

Fred Gettings. “The Book of the Hand” Page 210
“ In fact his (Cheiro’s) books contribute almost nothing to the theory of palmistry, and like all his contemporaries he based them purely and simply on on the writings of D’Arpentigny and Desbarolles and managed to imbue them with the usual misunderstandings. His knowledge of the ‘history’ of palmistry is unusually inaccurate, and in spite of the fact that all the historical points raised in his books were taken largely from Heron-Allen, he somehow contrives to mix up dates and names in the most incredible way.”
“(Cheiro)…. Travelled widely while still quite young, and is supposed on his own account to have studied palmistry in India under the Braham Joshi Cast. This is very unlikely, for the palmistry he practised and wrote about contains no ideas that cannot be found in D’Arpentigny or Desbarolles."

Richard Webster “You can read Palms” (page 6)
“The next major contribution to palmistry occurred in the United States when William G. Benham published ‘The Laws of Scientific Handreading’ in 1900. He had studied the works of D’Arpentigny and Desbarolles and believed an accurate interpretation could be made only after studying both the shape and lines of the hand. Benham believed that palms could be read scientifically, and no psychic ability was necessary."


Ed Campbell “The Encyclopaedia of Palmistry” page 6:
“Desbarolles was an occultist interested in the Cabala. Through this interest he brought the idea of planetary influences to palmistry. These ideas would form the fertile ground for the later works of William Benham in America and the English Cheirological Society founded by Katherine St Hill in the late 1880s. Until recently most of the practices of modern palmistry have been built upon the teachings of d’Arpentigny and Desbarolles.”






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Re: Amateur comments (?) of christopher jones in his hand reading website.

Post  sv-b on Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:40 am

Hello Martijn, and lynn..

Hope, we aware that why we're discussing the works of cheiro and D'Arpentigny. My main intention behind this discussion on the works of cheiro and D'Arpentigny is to disprove the claim of christopher jones, especially when he says that Modern indian palmists seem to follow the Western victorian palmistry rather than indigenous origin of their own and his doubts on existence of original indian palmistry sources.

For this , As a first step, I have shown you that where the original manuscrips are now (vaitheswar temple). secondly, I have proved that cheiro is the by-product of indian palmistry as it is obviously explained in Wikepedia link that say about 2years of his thorough study on indian palmistry with the guidance of indian bramin in india. Thirdly, Cheiro is the senior of benham. Infact, Benham was not a founder of palmistry. Indeed, He tried to research on palmistry from existed ideas on palmistry with his available sources. He could be considerably a follower of cheiro as they both expresses the similar idea in their most of their works. Benham's influence on indian palmistry is again represented by his works, by means of using astrological signs, and reading the heart line begining from jupiter mount. These are being evidence for his interests on classic indian style of predictive palmistry. Hence, It becomes obvious that how cheiro and benham had been followed indian palmistry all the while. In order to know the D'Arpentigny influences on palmistry, being a historian, we have to look for the prior works on french palmistry and western palmistry works of 18th century instead of looking for the commentary of 19th and 20th century palmists. Because, a single wrong comments and misunderstandings of 19th century palmists can mislead the train of their followers.
Now, These all above disproves the amateurish comments of christopher jones .

-Regards, stalin.v

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Re: Amateur comments (?) of christopher jones in his hand reading website.

Post  Manfred on Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:49 am

Hi Martijn you wrote:

"By the way, it is also important here to notice that d'Arpentigny started using the word 'Cheirognomy' shortly after it was first introduced by another french man: Desbarrolles!"

I'm not shure If i understand this passage right as d'Arpentigny was the older chirologist and Desbarolles got his 7 hand system from him, isn't it?

Stalin, you wrote:
"Benham's influence on indian palmistry is again represented by his works, by means of using astrological signs, and reading the heart line begining from jupiter mount."

The use of astrological signs don't have to show an influence of Indian roots. As I wrot in the other thread was this common even with the early European chiromantics minimmum around the 15th century - as we can proof on base of the first printed books. May be it was even earlier in use here. Nearly the same is with predictive (chronoligical) palmistry. Time scales is also including many very early European books.

....reading the heart line begining from jupiter mount.
Fist of all: I had always and have my doubts that Cheiro this really does in practice (specially in predictiving), because this gives no sese and right results. I've said this in several threads and forums in the past.
I also aware that some modern Indians (Kattakar...) place the beginning on the Jupiter mount, in (predictiving and all days) practice they really use the start on the percussion.

My impression is:
1. A lot of Indians took the placement of the planets from European roots. - We still have available the oldest books about it printed in Europe.
2. A lot of Indians took the beginning of the heart line from Cheiro's work.

If there are other, older Indian manuscripts about the two topics I would enjoy to read or look at it's pictures here.

Regards
Manfred

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Re: Amateur comments (?) of christopher jones in his hand reading website.

Post  sv-b on Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:30 am

Hello manfred, Smile

1. Reading the heart line begining from jupiter to percussion and percussion to jupiter both has to be done as the both models gives different details about an individual. I convinced with this fact as it is true in my own case and it has been explained in palmistry classics, in detail. you can find this from the palmistry classics which i'm translating
and posting in the forum.

secondly, The book, Indian palmistry, 1895 written by j.b.dale illustrates the astrological sign and more than 30 pictorial signs on palm.

3. you claim that the usage of astrological sign on palm stemmed from westerns. We know the origin of palmistry stemmed from india. but, now you have to tell me the origin of astrology before you make such claim. The references from the vasistha's rules, said to be 2000b.c old , implies not only the mentioning of palmistry , but, also there are references of astrology as well. Hope, you were already aware of it. Moreover, you can find the references from mahabharatha epic written by vyasa, and ramayana epic written by valmiki. Hence, It is obvious that the practice of astrology existed in india before 4000 year by now. The word 'astrology directly implies the study of one's fortune through calculating the planetary position and star constellation.

4. I cannot help you much when you ask the evidence for astro-palmistry as it is new area for me so far. Other indian members can help you in this regard.

5. As i said earlier with evidences, cheiro came to india and learned indian divinations. But, your claim seems to be exactly opposite when you talk about heart line. Indian classic texts suggest to read the heart line in both direction as each direction represents the different accounts of the same person's life, with time scale variation as well.

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Re: Amateur comments (?) of christopher jones in his hand reading website.

Post  Manfred on Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:27 am

Dear Stalin again,

sorry my first long answer is lost. But the continue here:

I just found in Dale's book:

VI PREFACE.

" In the year 1652," writes Zadkiel, the celebrated astrologer, Geo. Wharton, Esq.,
published a translation of 'a matchless piece' ashe terms it, on the subject, written in Latin (originally in German) by Dr. J. Rothman." Since that period the art of cheiromancy has gradually fallen into disuse, chiefly from the extensive nonsense published by recent writers.

One of the writers makes a shallow attempt to disprove the connection which exists between astrology and palmistry, while another says it is based on the principles of the Kabalah, the latter being nothing more than a mnemonical system of astrology.
From the writings of Dr. J. Rothman and Geo. Wharton,Esq., I propose now to give, together with some of the choicest of those of the East, the principal matter, and to explain in the ordinary language used by palmisters such points as may require elucidation.

Mr. Wharton, a careful student in these subjects, clearly proves that palmistry can only act in accordance with astrology, and that the art of cheiromancy cannot be relied upon beyond the period of from one to two years at most, for he
observes in his preface, "What more convincing than if, by inspection made into the hand of any man, I truly pronounce this or that planet essen- tially dignified or angular in his geniture, or in such or such a position with other planets or stars, another unfortunate, afflicted or defected?

Dr. J. Rothmann was a German. He printed his book around 1540. It's in my library.

Regards
Manfred

ps. Dale's book:

http://books.google.de/books?id=uYpVrBdjCKYC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Indian+palmistry+j.b.dale&source=bl&ots=3mEqfRKBCP&sig=Um3sxJy3Hm5B53TQEIn3ZyjybD4&hl=de&ei=xWfWTMKZH4PrOYHohYMK&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

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Re: Amateur comments (?) of christopher jones in his hand reading website.

Post  sv-b on Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:59 am

Hello manfred, Smile

I appreciate your enthusiasm in searching the old manuscripts. But, you should not forget few basic facts of history. Invention of paper is the first revolutionary event improved communication and Transformation of knowledge among humans. Chinese invented the paper around 2nd century A.D and it entered to europe around 1300 A.D. Later , This idea was spreaded and evolved all around the world. At the most possibility, Paper industry were launched in india around early 18th century. Till then, Indians managed to transfer the knowledge through palm leaf manuscripts milleniums of years. So, if you want to know more about earliest indian manuscripts, you have to learn indian classical languages. Because, you can not find any english works of indian before the british invasion. Moreover, you have to visit india and learn from traditionalists submissively. There is no way other than this. As i said earlier in this discussion, native sanskrit speakers are merely 15,000 among the 100 crores of indian population. So, Most of indian palmistry book in english will not be perfect enough except the sanskrit knowing authors like V.A.K.iyer.

you can find more than 2 astrologer and palmists in almost every streets of india. Still, they will not share their knowledge . It is almost like family profession to many astrologist. Grand father will teach to father , father share it with son, like wise... We can find many charletans among the skillful astrologists and palmists. Almost every indian astrologer will be knowing palm reading as both are inter-linked.

-Regards, stalin.v

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Re: Amateur comments (?) of christopher jones in his hand reading website.

Post  Manfred on Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:36 am

Dear Stalin,

as a researcher I can only say anything on the base of the facts that I have. Legends are legends and oral traditions or old manuscripts we don't really know are the same for me not less but also not more. - I'll still have a look in the book of Ayers.
I would be very interested in any older scipts about the correlation of astrology and palmistry, that of Geece, too! Until then I wight the conclusion, that the tradition of our nowadays use of astro-palmistry - the assignment we mostly use today - origins in India as a work hypothesis.

It would be go too far off to discuss the Astrology tradition, too, because here we have to count very much with the imense influence of the Sumer's culture that goes back minimum until 4000 BC. Her was their 6/12 - the original Sumer Hexagesimal system - even on the Indian astrology on influence, what Robert Hand, today the most important astrology scientist tells us on base of his reseach.

Regards
Manfred

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Re: Amateur comments (?) of christopher jones in his hand reading website.

Post  sv-b on Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:22 am

Hello manfred, Smile

It has been proved by the NASA research and archeological findings that the existence of hinduism in india around 9,500 b.c which are prior to sumerian and indus valley civilization.
Here is the link for the proof.
http://www.hinduism.co.za/oldest.htm

Infact, The researches on civilization and it's date is nothing to do with the ancient divination practices unless finding the related manuscript proof remainings in such civilizations. This way, The manuscripts which you have dated 1400A.D, does not represent the source unless there is presence of any references in it. Indeed, Solid References in the manuscripts are considerably more valuable evidence than any guesses of Historians.

- Regards, stalin.v

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Re: Amateur comments (?) of christopher jones in his hand reading website.

Post  Manfred on Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:02 am

Dear Stalin,

sorry, but this says nothing about the sources of astrology and it is known and shown by cuneiform script that Sumerian astrology/astronomy can be documented minimum back until 4000 BC. By the way, today we know that we find rests of sone age people in the area of Northern Sumer that the scientits date back until minimum 140 000 BC. I think it also makes no sense to speculate about those old roots.

Again: I'm always intersted in any astropalmistry facts coming from where ever, but also on this field I only acept, what I can see or read and not what is said to be.

I didn't read or see or know any older facts until today than that I've mention.
It isn't also unimportant because in those early days of the Renaissance the assignments of the planets were not fixed from the beginning and were slightly changed and the assignment of the Zodiac were less important - still today and they are still much more difficult as a topic to discuss and to assign. It seems that their assignment came later.

Would like to stop this discussion here until we have new facts on base of proofen old scipts.

Regards
Manfred

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Re: Amateur comments (?) of christopher jones in his hand reading website.

Post  sv-b on Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:22 am

Manfred, i have already explained the reason.. read it again..

stalin.v wrote:Hello manfred, Smile

I appreciate your enthusiasm in searching the old manuscripts. But, you should not forget few basic facts of history. Invention of paper is the first revolutionary event improved communication and Transformation of knowledge among humans. Chinese invented the paper around 2nd century A.D and it entered to europe around 1300 A.D. Later , This idea was spreaded and evolved all around the world. At the most possibility, Paper industry were launched in india around early 18th century. Till then, Indians managed to transfer the knowledge through palm leaf manuscripts milleniums of years. So, if you want to know more about earliest indian manuscripts, you have to learn indian classical languages. Because, you can not find any english works of indian before the british invasion. Moreover, you have to visit india and learn from traditionalists submissively. There is no way other than this. As i said earlier in this discussion, native sanskrit speakers are merely 15,000 among the 100 crores of indian population. So, Most of indian palmistry book in english will not be perfect enough except the sanskrit knowing authors like V.A.K.iyer.

you can find more than 2 astrologer and palmists in almost every streets of india. Still, they will not share their knowledge . It is almost like family profession to many astrologist. Grand father will teach to father , father share it with son, like wise... We can find many charletans among the skillful astrologists and palmists. Almost every indian astrologer will be knowing palm reading as both are inter-linked.

-Regards, stalin.v

and... Dont always expect peoples will spoon-feed you by giving you the translations of ancient scripts.

sv-b

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Re: Amateur comments (?) of christopher jones in his hand reading website.

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:04 pm

Manfred wrote:Hi Martijn you wrote:

"By the way, it is also important here to notice that d'Arpentigny started using the word 'Cheirognomy' shortly after it was first introduced by another french man: Desbarrolles!"

I'm not shure If i understand this passage right as d'Arpentigny was the older chirologist and Desbarolles got his 7 hand system from him, isn't it?

Hi Manfred,

Yes, you're right of course: it was d'Arpentigny who introduced the word 'Cheirognomy' in his work 'La Chirognomie' (1839).

Thanks for the correction (and I have edited my former post on this aspect).


Thumbs up!

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Re: Amateur comments (?) of christopher jones in his hand reading website.

Post  sv-b on Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:13 pm

I pump up and highlight my latest post here as manfred and myself made it off-topic for a while

stalin.v wrote:Hello Martijn, and lynn..

Hope, we aware that why we're discussing the works of cheiro and D'Arpentigny. My main intention behind this discussion on the works of cheiro and D'Arpentigny is to disprove the claim of christopher jones, especially when he says that Modern indian palmists seem to follow the Western victorian palmistry rather than indigenous origin of their own and his doubts on existence of original indian palmistry sources.

For this , As a first step, I have shown you that where the original manuscrips are now (vaitheswar temple). secondly, I have proved that cheiro is the by-product of indian palmistry as it is obviously explained in Wikepedia link that say about 2years of his thorough study on indian palmistry with the guidance of indian bramin in india. Thirdly, Cheiro is the senior of benham. Infact, Benham was not a founder of palmistry. Indeed, He tried to research on palmistry from existed ideas on palmistry with his available sources. He could be considerably a follower of cheiro as they both expresses the similar idea in their most of their works. Benham's influence on indian palmistry is again represented by his works, by means of using astrological signs, and reading the heart line begining from jupiter mount. These are being evidence for his interests on classic indian style of predictive palmistry. Hence, It becomes obvious that how cheiro and benham had been followed indian palmistry all the while. In order to know the D'Arpentigny influences on palmistry, being a historian, we have to look for the prior works on french palmistry and western palmistry works of 18th century instead of looking for the commentary of 19th and 20th century palmists. Because, a single wrong comments and misunderstandings of 19th century palmists can mislead the train of their followers.
Now, These all above disproves the amateurish comments of christopher jones .

-Regards, stalin.v

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Re: Amateur comments (?) of christopher jones in his hand reading website.

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:25 pm

stalin.v wrote:Hello Martijn, and lynn..

Hope, we aware that why we're discussing the works of cheiro and D'Arpentigny. My main intention behind this discussion on the works of cheiro and D'Arpentigny is to disprove the claim of christopher jones, especially when he says that Modern indian palmists seem to follow the Western victorian palmistry rather than indigenous origin of their own and his doubts on existence of original indian palmistry sources.

For this , As a first step, I have shown you that where the original manuscrips are now (vaitheswar temple). secondly, I have proved that cheiro is the by-product of indian palmistry as it is obviously explained in Wikepedia link that say about 2years of his thorough study on indian palmistry with the guidance of indian bramin in india.

Sorry Stalin, you're wrong regarding your second 'proof' (part 1),

Your 2nd 'proof'... is simply not acceptable!
As a matter of fact: what you presented as your 2nd 'proof', is nothing more than a delusion, for...

What the Wikipedia page describes is true (Cheiro indeed lived 2 years in India):

Second, the Wikipedia page about Cheiro's life correctly describes:

"As mentioned in his memoirs, Cheiro acquired his expertise in India. As a teenager, he traveled to the Bombay port of Apollo Bunder. There, he met his Guru, an Indian Brahmin, who took him to his village in the valley of the Konkan region of Maharashtra. After studying thoroughly for two years, he returned to London and started his career as a palmist."

However... you concluded:

"Wikepedia link shows that he [Cheiro] got the only influence from Indian bramin which helped him for all his contribution on occult sciences. (No other influence was mentioned)"

Stalin you concluded from the wikipedia page that Cheiro only studied Indian palmistry, but that is not described by the Wikipedia page at all!

And then you start even saying that your wikipedia page 'proofs' your point ... while it doesn't mention your point at all!!

Lynn has described that there is a lot of evidence that Cheiro was highly influenced by the frenchman d'Arpentigny, and I already described in one of my longer former comments:

Cheiro's use of the d'Arpentigny model PROOFS that Cheiro's work was for sure influenced very by Western hand readers as well!! (While Stalin's claims that Cheiro was ONLY under the influence of Indian tranditions - but the various elements which Cheiro took from d'Arpentigny's work proof that Stalin's claim is not true at all.)


Sorry Stalin, this actually proofs that what you called your 2nd 'proof' (with a reference to the wikipedia page)... is complete nonesense.

But you've made likewise other mistakes... (in my next post I'lll describe another one)


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:35 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Re: Amateur comments (?) of christopher jones in his hand reading website.

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:05 pm

stalin.v wrote:Hello Martijn, and lynn..

... Thirdly, Cheiro is the senior of benham. Infact, Benham was not a founder of palmistry. Indeed, He tried to research on palmistry from existed ideas on palmistry with his available sources. He could be considerably a follower of cheiro as they both expresses the similar idea in their most of their works.

Sorry Stalin, you're wrong also about your third 'proof' (part 2),

In my longer reply (Yesterday at 23:30) to Lynn I described:

"I think Stalin's claim that Cheiro was a 'senior' of Benham is quite silly!! Cheiro was not even mentioned at all in 'The Benham Book of Palmistry'!! And Benham's book can be described as a combination of the writings of d'Arpentigny & Desbarrolles + Benham add his own observations that he made over the years: Benham tried to make a science out of handreading - while Cheiro only fouled-around with the 'mystery' called palmistry!"


And Stalin... I would like to notice here that you only 'claimed' that Benham was a student of Cheiro, and then you even started saying that you 'proofed' your point to be true.

Complete nonsense - you haven't presented any evidence at all, and I expect that there is no evidence at all for what you presented as your '3th proof'!

Your 'style' of discussion points out... that you've created 'your own truth'.
But the facts tell a completely different story!


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:35 pm; edited 5 times in total

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Re: Amateur comments (?) of christopher jones in his hand reading website.

Post  sv-b on Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:08 pm

Hello martijn, Smile

I really dont care whether cheiro followed the hand shape model of arpentigny or not as concerned by this title of this discussion. Now the real problem is about the claim of christopher. Indeed, Arpentigny was a french palmist. Hence, his works were obviously not followed by indians. but, christopher made a trick here and formed generalised claim that modern indians seems to follow western victorian palmistry. I gave the proof from which part of india cheiro came and learned from a indian bramin. Hence, I claim now that Western victorian palmists has followed the indian palmistry after learning from india. Then, about benham. Benham uses the classic indian predictive palmistry method, which is evidenced by his usage of astrological sign and reading the heart line begging from jupiter. This too represents how western victorian palmists was influenced by indian palmistry.

So, Now it has been proved here that the claim of christopher is nothing more than non-sense.

p.s: In the wikepedia link, about cheiro. There is only one influence was given under the Tabular coloum. That is an indian sage. But, Nowhere mentioned about french palmist.

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Re: Amateur comments (?) of christopher jones in his hand reading website.

Post  sv-b on Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:16 pm

Hello martijn, Smile

Do you think, reading astrological signs on palm is consider to be the scientic palm reading of benham? Sorry, So called 'modern palmist ' is also not got any recognition from science. your claim of astrological sign on palm will be negligible by science? dont joke martijn... Smile

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Re: Amateur comments (?) of christopher jones in his hand reading website.

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:24 pm


Dear Stalin, my conclusion (part 3),


THIS IS MY SHORT SUMMARY REGARDING THIS TOPIC:

What Christopher Jones described regarding his reference that many palmists in India today have started following the works of western palmistry authors (d'Arpentigny, Desbarrolles, Cheiro, Le Compte C. de Saint-Germain & Benham) who dominated this field in the Victorian period... this is a correct statement. And in the 20th century especially Cheiro's name became very famous in India.

Mister Updendrasingh Bhadoriya - a very experienced palmist from India - has confirmed that Christopher Jones's summary is true!

Regarding the historical facts:

It was d'Arpentigny who presented the most important innovation: the 'cheirognomy' model of the 7 hand types.

Desbarrolles became known for introducing the planetary influences to palmistry.

And it's true that Cheiro became most famous of those 5 names. But his fame is not based on presenting any 'innovation'!!! (Cheiro merely became famous for his rather remarkable personality and ''walk-of-life"... and of course the stories about his predictions; though one could wonder if all his 'stories' are really based on truth).

So at the end, all Indians today who are following Cheiro's work ... are also under the influence of d'Arpentigny's work.

But I guess most of them will not be able to confirm that... but one could wonder: how much does the average Indian palmist really know about the history of palmistry?


MY ONLY OPEN QUESTONS ARE:

1 - Who was the first Indian palmistry author who described the planetary influences in the hand?
2 - Who was the first Indian palmistry author who describe the 'Yog' (NOTICE: I noticed that the 'Yogs' are derived from the use of the 'Yogas' in the field of astrology).

scratch ... I hope that in time some member will be able to answer these questions with some kind of citation.

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Re: Amateur comments (?) of christopher jones in his hand reading website.

Post  sv-b on Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:39 pm

Hello martijn, Smile

So called western victorian palmist did not do any invention than mixing up greek , french and indian palmistry together. some english knowing indians are reading the work of cheiro and benham as those books were published in india during the time of british period of india. As i already proved how the western victorian palmists were influenced by indian palmistry during the time of british dominancy in india. but, christopher either exploiting it or due to ignorance makes amateurish comments on indian palmistry.

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Re: Amateur comments (?) of christopher jones in his hand reading website.

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:44 pm

stalin.v wrote:Hello martijn, Smile

...
p.s: In the wikepedia link, about cheiro. There is only one influence was given under the Tabular coloum. That is an indian sage. But, Nowhere mentioned about french palmist.

Dear Stalin, basically this is really a 'stupid' (edit) conclusion ... and I know that you can do better!!


Let me I'll try to explain once more (3th attempt actually!!)

That wikipedia page describes only what is generally known about Cheiro's life.... but obviously there are a lot more other facts to tell!

So, again, yes this page present some facts - but obvious quite a lot of other facts are missing!!! This is also illustrated by the fact that this wikipedia page is hardly featured with sources - basically there is only one single page mentioned: Cheiro's book "Palmistry for all".

(I hope you will be able to understand why I described your question as a 'stupid' question... again, I know: you can do better, much better
!!)


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

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