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Ironic note from the dutch quack organization

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Ironic note from the dutch quack organization

Post  yogiman on Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:15 pm

I googled on palmistry in dutch, and came on the website of the dutch quack organization, where a familiar name is mentioned at the bottom of the page (translation from dutch):

"The psychologist Martijn van Mensvoort has done much research into the ways in which to tell something about someone's personality by means of a handprint. However, when one reads that after 2415 analyses he found a good 9 significant results, one knows enough: this is a "seek and thou shall find" research."

Maybe Martijn feels the desire to defend himself here, and I would welcome it.

yogiman

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Re: Ironic note from the dutch quack organization

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:59 pm

yogiman wrote:I googled on palmistry in dutch, and came on the website of the dutch quack organization, where a familiar name is mentioned at the bottom of the page (translation from dutch):

"The psychologist Martijn van Mensvoort has done much research into the ways in which to tell something about someone's personality by means of a handprint. However, when one reads that after 2415 analyses he found a good 9 significant results, one knows enough: this is a "seek and thou shall find" research."

Maybe Martijn feels the desire to defend himself here, and I would welcome it.

Yes, I am aware of that comment - though I think it is a slightly misleading (and suggestive) comment and that short summary is actually taken out of it's context; this is what my website actually reports:

"An overall correlation analysis for both the men and women shows that about half of the significant correlations between the Big Five dimensions and the hand features can not be explained by statistical coincidence. After 2415 analyses only 9 significant correlations were identified which have been found in both the male and female sample - 6 of these correlations can be explained by statistical coincidences."

Quoted from: http://www.handresearch.com/hand-reading-research.htm


PS. That study involved 3 personality questionnaires (involving 23 personality factors) which were correlated with 105 hand features  => 23 x 105 = 2415 analyses.

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Martijn van Mensvoort
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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Re: Ironic note from the dutch quack organization

Post  yogiman on Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:44 pm

I looked on the research page, and saw that palmists have difficulty to decide extraversion and introversion from a print. Well, they can't properly judge by the thumb and venus mount from a print, but they can see whether the life line is tight or bold. Is the life line such a poor criterion?

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Re: Ironic note from the dutch quack organization

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:34 pm

yogiman wrote:I looked on the research page, and saw that palmists have difficulty to decide extraversion and introversion from a print. Well, they can't properly judge by the thumb and venus mount from a print, but they can see whether the life line is tight or bold. Is the life line such a poor criterion?

According my experience few palmists are aware of how subjective most assessments made in this field really are, my studies have also indicated that palmists often make subjective assessments regarding many aspects of the hand (including the fingerprints).

And based on the results in my more recent extraversion project I am confident that the path of the life line does not provide a reliable/significant indicator or clue regarding the personality dimenion extraversion-introversion. Actually, there is no clear standard regarding how to assess such a characteristic - despite the superficial visual guidelines that are usually presented in the palmistry literature (which in my perception nearly always display a lack of detail, because making an assessment in practice is often much harder than what is suggested by the illustrations in far most books).

Part of the problem here is also that palmists usually also cherish diffuse perceptions regarding the meaning of the term/concept 'extraversion', which partly explains why each single author tends to associate it with a different/personal set of hand features. In nearly all cases the theory described in the literature is based on anecdotal evidence instead of proper thorough research.

Not sure that this is helpful, but these are basically my thoughts & observations regarding the topics that you raised


Thanks!


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Re: Ironic note from the dutch quack organization

Post  yogiman on Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:48 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
According my experience few palmists are aware of how subjective most assessments made in this field really are, my studies have also indicated that palmists often make subjective assessments regarding many aspects of the hand (including the fingerprints).

I think that by sticking to the scientific truth you do a great service to the art of palmistry, though I doubt that many professional palmists will agree. The risk is that after years, instead of improving, your mistakes will solidify and the way back will become harder and harder. Worse, one will give misleading information to the client, and will bring damage to the status quo of the art.

And based on the results in my more recent extraversion project I am confident that the path of the life line does not provide a reliable/significant indicator or clue regarding the personality dimenion extraversion-introversion. Actually, there is no clear standard regarding how to assess such a characteristic - despite the superficial visual guidelines that are usually presented in the palmistry literature (which in my perception nearly always display a lack of detail, because making an assessment in practice is often much harder than what is suggested by the illustrations in far most books).
Part of the problem here is also that palmists usually also cherish diffuse perceptions regarding the meaning of the term/concept 'extraversion', which partly explains why each single author tends to associate it with a different/personal set of hand features. In nearly all cases the theory described in the literature is based on anecdotal evidence instead of proper thorough research.

I think the general consensus will be that extravertion refers to -socially outgoing-, and introversion refers to -socially withdrawn-. However, when I view my own mother, then I observe that she is verbally very "outgoing", but when there is no one around she is very much into herself. She is also very averse from taking on new challenges, and is only "physically outgoing" when it concerns environments she is accustomed to. Nonetheless, she has supple fingers and thumb and has got a bold life line, whereas I, who is socially withdrawn, do have a rather tight life line.

I think we will agree that it would be best to single out the "worldchamp" palmreading to help you in your research, but probably there will not be the financial resources.

yogiman

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Re: Ironic note from the dutch quack organization

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:53 pm

yogiman wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
According my experience few palmists are aware of how subjective most assessments made in this field really are, my studies have also indicated that palmists often make subjective assessments regarding many aspects of the hand (including the fingerprints).

I think that by sticking to the scientific truth you do a great service to the art of palmistry, though I doubt that many professional palmists will agree. The risk is that after years, instead of improving, your mistakes will solidify and the way back will become harder and harder. Worse, one will give misleading information to the client, and will bring damage to the status quo of the art.

Oh yes, sure, I am fully aware that most palmists have a different view than mine (for a large number of reasons).

But I also know that there is actually very little consensus about anything in this field at all... except for maybe the used vocabulary to refer to hand features, but the assessments are nearly always made on subjective grounds combined with a high dosis of speculative/diffuse psychological concepts (which are usually cherished like a personal religion).

But how many palmists do you think are in the position to question + research things thoroughly without worrying about the related financials?

I think a palmist should not claim 'independency of mind' when financials are involved in their palmistry activities & research. In my perception this is where the problems start regarding the lack of 'quality' in this field.

I hope I have expressed this well.

Wink

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Re: Ironic note from the dutch quack organization

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:04 pm

yogiman wrote:
I think the general consensus will be that extravertion refers to -socially outgoing-, and introversion refers to -socially withdrawn-. However, when I view my own mother, then I observe that she is verbally very "outgoing", but when there is no one around she is very much into herself. She is also very averse from taking on new challenges, and is only "physically outgoing" when it concerns environments she is accustomed to. Nonetheless, she has supple fingers and thumb and has got a bold life line, whereas I, who is socially withdrawn, do have a rather tight life line.

I think we will agree that it would be best to single out the "worldchamp" palmreading to help you in your research, but probably there will not be the financial resources.

I wish things were simple like that, but... I can assure you that every single school in this field would probably propose a different person - probably a tutor or student of their own school, of course - to be nominated as a World Champion nominee.

Sorry, I am inclined to describe your suggestion to be far from realistic (because that would require a high level of consensus in the field, which is missing).

But I can add the following:

I am aware that some Indians have claimed to be the 'world champion' in this field, but I also observed that those individuals are heavily involved with the act of divination (predicting the future)... while many Western palmists believe that it is actually close to impossible to reliably predict the future. So, I have the impression that these 'World Champions' are sort of living in a fantasy world (probably created out of religious concepts & perceptions).

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Re: Ironic note from the dutch quack organization

Post  yogiman on Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:54 am

Johnny Fincham is a very good writer. He must have earned lots of money with book sales. But good looking is not good enough, it should work in practise. If he is a good sport, he could offer himself for experimentation.

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Re: Ironic note from the dutch quack organization

Post  Lynn on Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:34 am

Johnny spent many years in experimentation and researching hand features in the 1980's/90's with the Cheriological Society research group.

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