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The Ancient sources and origin of astro-palmistry!

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The Ancient sources and origin of astro-palmistry!

Post  sv-b on Sat Nov 06, 2010 12:45 pm

Copied from other thread

Manfred wrote:Dear Stalin,

thank you for your response.
My only interests are: Where are the oldest sources of assigning planets or the Zodiac in the hand, whether in the East or West. I have no personal preferences of countries, regions, parts of the world or others.
Another and even more interesting scientific question for me is: What confirms itselves in today's practice.

The oldest sources I found as I mentioned are for:

1. The planets in the hand: Antiochus Tiberius of Cesena, printed Bologna 1494.
John Metham, Metham Palmistrie, hand written manuscript, Norfolk 1450.
(Source: Chr. Jones, The History of Handreading...)

2. the Zodiac in the fingers: Jean Bellot: Les Ouevres, France 1640.
(Source: My own library.)

If this goes off topic here, I have no problem to change the thread.

With kind regards
Manfred

Additionally: Christopher mentioned that there exists a planets in hand picture in an classical Greece text - in a translation of Franz Boll. Whether couldn't find it untill today, nor Christopher don't have it - I wrote him about.

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Re: The Ancient sources and origin of astro-palmistry!

Post  sv-b on Sat Nov 06, 2010 12:53 pm

Hello manfred, Smile

Thanks for the explanation. In sanskrit, Astro-palmistry is termed "Graha samudrika" . But, either upendraji , or anu or other indian astro-palmists of india in the forum can give you the list of source book. I share with you information if i come across any.

P.S: Peoples feel free to share your astro-palmistry book collections irrespective of old or new as requested by manfred. Later we can trace back the origins.. Smile

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Re: The Ancient sources and origin of astro-palmistry!

Post  Manfred on Sat Nov 06, 2010 5:32 pm

Dear Stalin, do you mean we shall make here a list of it? - Regards Manfred

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Re: The Ancient sources and origin of astro-palmistry!

Post  sv-b on Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:02 pm

Hi manfred, Smile

Collecting the books from all over the world and source book is being hope now. Find the upload done by anu_d from script.com. It may be appeared like indian palmistry book in english. but, Those will be valuable than what you have in your library. Try for it and share your exclamations! you will find lot of scope there. Just i have given the clue.

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Re: The Ancient sources and origin of astro-palmistry!

Post  Manfred on Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:53 pm

Dear Stalin,

I can't give all the titles but interesting is, that Belot put the Zodiac signs in the fingers in the same way than any "important" Western chiromancy books and Indian astro-palmistry (that I know) after him.
Richard Saunders translated his (Belot's) book and issued it under the title: "Physiognomie and Chiromancie" 1671 in London.

As I mentioned before I don't agree with his assignments though Desbarolles, Chawdhri use the same as they write and of which I think it doesn't work.

For short: The oldest source of the combination hand / Zodiac I have is Belot.

It's still not possible for me to put in here pictures but I'll put one of Belot's and Sounders' Zodiac hands/fingers on my facebook side. Look for the foto album: "The book of hands" there, you'll also find some other very old pictures of planet hands there.

Regards
Manfred

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Re: The Ancient sources and origin of astro-palmistry!

Post  sv-b on Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:25 am

Hello manfred, Smile

Really, i have to study lot on astro-palmistry through leading indian books and various sources for some years before answering your questions. Smile

so, I cannot help you much regarding this issue now. I suggest you to contact upendraji and bhandariji in order to get the indian astro-palmistry classics and further clarifications. May be martijn may have their e-mail addresses. surely, it will be of use if you contact them. I think, Bhandariji know sanskrit. so, His collections on astro-palmistry would be of Vedic origin and ancient.


- Regards, stalin.v

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Re: The Ancient sources and origin of astro-palmistry!

Post  Manfred on Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:42 am

Dear palmistry / chiromancy friends,

I've just put in the fotos of Belot's and Saunders' hand pictures with the Zodiac - The very first pictures with the hand /Zodiac combination in Europe (which I don't agree).
You'll find it in my - Manfred Magg - facebook foto album: "The book of the hands".

Regards
Manfred

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Re: The Ancient sources and origin of astro-palmistry!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:52 am


Hi Manfred, Thumbs up!

Here we go...

By the way, can you describe from which year they are?
And can you describe anything about the background of those pictures - are any (older) sources mentioned in that work?





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Re: The Ancient sources and origin of astro-palmistry!

Post  Manfred on Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:49 pm

Dear Martijn,

oooohhhh, all those questions, I can only answer time by time.

As I wrote in facebook as the companion text:

1. - Eine der ältesten Handabbildungen mit Tierkreiszeichen. Richard Saunders: Physiognomie and Chiromancie. London 1671.
- One of the oldest picture of hands with the Zodiac. - Richard Saunders: Physiognomie and Chiromancie. London 1671.
2. - Mit das älteste gedruckte Handschema mit den Tierkreissymbolen in der Hand (den Fingern). - Aus Jean Belot, Les Ouevres, 1688.
- One of the oldest picture of hands including the Zodiac. - Jean Belot: Les Ouevres 1688.
The 2nd one is in fact the older one - first written/printed in French around 1640, but here in a later issue (my book).

Number 1 - this Saunders's book is a translation of Belot's in English.

New is here that we can't find only the planets like Mars, Venus, Sun...in the hand, but the signs of the Zodiac like Aries, Taurus...in the fingers.
I have/know no older pictures historical with it before whether in the East or West. (May be here we may see Stalin again going up as a racket in the air! sunny - But I would be always very amused to find an older.)

Planet / hand shematas I did find older ones, as you'll find in my facebook album, too.

For short: We have to divide:
- Planet (easier, more and unambiguous) in the hand,
- Signs of the Zodiac (much more complicated and as I think not really clear) in the hand.
As I often mentioned I'm not following the last declaration, that is ususally used also in the modern Indian astro-palmistry books (Chawdhri). It would be longer to explain why, but compare only the charakter of the Zodiac sign and what we know of some significant finger phalanxess.

Example: The character and what we know about the lowest Saturn ph. has nothing to do with pisces, the lowest Mercury ph. has nothing to do with Sagitarius.

Sorry, you see, only with short words it's fast getting an article.

Regards
Manfred


Last edited by Manfred on Mon Nov 08, 2010 1:46 pm; edited 5 times in total

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Re: The Ancient sources and origin of astro-palmistry!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Nov 08, 2010 1:30 pm


Thank you Manfred, great answers!!


Thumbs up!

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Re: The Ancient sources and origin of astro-palmistry!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:52 pm


Here's an even older picture with astrological references included - taken from: 'Ms Douce 45' (= an alchemical text in Latin and Middle English which includes an eight page treatise on chiromancy and also dates from c.1450).

PS. More details about these materials are described at Christopher Jones' website:
http://www.cheirology.net/history/diverse.htm



NOTICE: In the upper hand you can read on the 4 fingers a reference to the planets.


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Re: The Ancient sources and origin of astro-palmistry!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:07 pm


... And I would like to add that Christopher Jones' website informs us that there are at least 3 other sources available which were published BEFORE the 'Ms Douce 45', see:
http://www.cheirology.net/history/treatises.htm

Those 3 sources are:

1) Metham's palmestrie (published: Norfolk c. 1450) - NOTICE: This source does include a reference to astrology (as described by Manfred earlier in this discussion).

2) MS Digby Roll IV (published: Oxford c. 1440) - NOTICE: This source does NOT include a reference to astrology.

3) Eadwine Psalter (published: ... appears to be under debate: Trinity College Cambridge: Ms R 17.1 c.1160; Bodleian Library: Ms Ashmole 399 c.1292) - NOTICE: This source does NOT include a reference to astrology.

thinking So, I think it is here interesting to notice that the oldest 2 known (western) sources do not include a reference to astrology!


PS. The translations of these sources are available at Christopher Jones' website (via the link presented above!)

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Re: The Ancient sources and origin of astro-palmistry!

Post  Manfred on Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:22 pm

Dear Martijn,

I'm astonished, what we can find today. Look at:

http://bodley30.bodley.ox.ac.uk:8180/luna/servlet/view/all/what/Manuscript/when/15th+century/

The same is with some very early German chiromancy books, that the planets / finger order lightly differs.

But still: Belot was up to now the first I found that used the Zodiac. - Berhaps if I'm studying it (Saunders) more I'll find out that it isn't right to assign the Zodiac signs in general in the hand and that it has a specific order, denpending on the personal constellations.

I also think it's remarcable that at that time and even later astrology only used educated students or mathematicians.

Regards
Manfred

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Re: The Ancient sources and origin of astro-palmistry!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:25 pm


Thanks Manfred, fabulous! Thumbs up!

PS. Yes, I understood your point regarding the Zodiac.



6 Pages from 'MS. Douce 45', plus a short summary: http://www.cheirology.net/history/diverse.htm












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Re: The Ancient sources and origin of astro-palmistry!

Post  Manfred on Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:28 pm

Dear Martijn and friends,

if we work with the Zodiac assignments we always have to

take into consideration that the Vedic astrology uses the Siderial Zodiac
and
the Western astrology usually uses the Tropical Zodiac!


Regards
Manfred

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Re: The Ancient sources and origin of astro-palmistry!

Post  Lynn on Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:36 pm

Manfred wrote:I'm astonished, what we can find today. Look at:

http://bodley30.bodley.ox.ac.uk:8180/luna/servlet/view/all/what/Manuscript/when/15th+century/

Great link Manfred thanks. It includes some of the manuscripts Christopher studied years ago in the Bodleian library, mentioned in his 'HIstory' pages. Nice to see the originals!

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Re: The Ancient sources and origin of astro-palmistry!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:44 pm


Hi Manfred,

Great comment!!

But, ooh-my-goodness... this indicates that there are major complications regarding the use of the zodiac-model for the hand!

(I wonder if most 'astro-palmists' are aware of this?)


lol!

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Re: The Ancient sources and origin of astro-palmistry!

Post  Manfred on Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:36 am

Dear Martijn,

it's much easier to get an agreement to the assignment of the old planets - until Saturn - in the hand than even the including of the new, collective planets: Uranus Neptun, Pluto.

The thing is much more complicated with the Zodiac. Usually, if ever, we find models with the Zodiac in the fingers. The very most shown (if ever in practice used) is that which shows or goes back to Belot. As I mentioned before: I don't know any other older printed or drawn picture with it.

My opion is, that the contemporary Indian palmists took it over - look for it in Chawdhri's "Astro-palmistry". Here we come to the problem, that even the older (classical) European astrologists or chiromantists absoutely for shure used the Tropical Zodiac (the Ecliptic, way of the Sun dividing into 12).

The Vedic or Indian astrology used and uses the Siderial Zodiac (the "real" 12 Zodiac stars pictures). This is usually 25° back from the first today. Example: 1° Arias West around 6° Pisces Vedic.
May be you remember the discussion in Sue's forum. I'm using the Tropical/West system.

Anyway, I have doubts that we can simply put in the Zodiac in general in the fingers/hand. If ever I would prefer Cheiro's system of assignment that is different from it, though my feeling is it doesn't really fit in all parts. If there is an deeper interest I could take in this here another time.

With the Zodic/hand combination I'm at the beginning with my researchings and think at this time, may be it makes more sense to use the system of the houses for that as an expression of a kind of "personal Zodiac".

Perhaps this sounds all complicated.

Dear Lynn,

thank you I've studyed Christopher's history together with Gettings' captures in his "Hand book" and Andre's "Companion. Christopher's and Andrew's works are really great!

Regards
Manfred

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Re: The Ancient sources and origin of astro-palmistry!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:08 pm

Hi Manfred,

I think you've explained the issue very well. Time will tell if we can find more details about the role of astrology in ancient Vedic palmistry.


Thumbs up!

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Re: The Ancient sources and origin of astro-palmistry!

Post  zaobhand on Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:43 pm

Vedic astrology is not necessarily bound to the sidereal zodiac. Few vedic astrologers are using the tropical zodiac. Ernst Wilhelm, for example, has an excellent (free) class on why, he believes, the tropical zodiac makes more sense and how the error has crept in.
http://www.vedic-astrology.net/FreeClasses/Ayanamsa-and-Rasis.asp

Boaz
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Re: The Ancient sources and origin of astro-palmistry!

Post  Manfred on Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:13 pm

Thank you Boaz.

I always had only contact with Siderical Vedic astrologers and I think the common Indian astro-palmists still use it. We should simply be careful with it and ask for the technics. - An ineresting work and article.

Manfred

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Re: The Ancient sources and origin of astro-palmistry!

Post  zaobhand on Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:33 pm

Hi Manfred,

Most Vedic astrologers indeed use sidereal.

I think the tropical zodiac makes more sense. For example, the mobile, fixed and mutable qualities of the signs (Aries is mobile, Taurus is fixed, Gemini is mutable, Cancer again is mobile and so on) make sense only within the tropical framework. The mobile signs, Aries, Cancer, Libra and Capricorn correspond to transition points of the Sun's inclination relative to the Earth along the zodiac (equinoxes and solstices).

Boaz


Last edited by zaobhand on Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:35 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added "equinoxes and solstices" in parenthesis)
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Re: The Ancient sources and origin of astro-palmistry!

Post  Manfred on Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:43 am

Dear Boaz,

I think there are different points of views and if one accept it we have to take into consiederation a specific kind of changing the concious or culture deveopement, West Self (on a deeper plane Ego) developement.
The Tropical put in the midpoint the Sun of Inner Self, typical West. The Siderial Zodiac puts in his centre perhaps more other spheres or the atheric plane.

Manfred

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Re: The Ancient sources and origin of astro-palmistry!

Post  zaobhand on Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:02 am

Dear Manfred,

Interesting perspective.

"I think there are different points of views and if one accept it we have to take into consiederation"
I think your thumb composite pattern is kicking in..
hand dance

The way I see it, the zodiac (12 signs) were handed to us by tradition. It is our task to at least make sense of them, use them in the right context. It makes sense to use the tropical zodiac for the planets. It makes sense to use the sidereal zodiac for the stars (the Nakshatras (lunar mansions) are positioned according to the sidereal reference system). The planets and the stars have different roles in the Vedic astrology system. Ernst Wilhelm explains these concepts very clearly in his lecture.

Boaz
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Re: The Ancient sources and origin of astro-palmistry!

Post  Manfred on Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:50 pm

Dear Boas,

whether composite or not, I think every researchers on any field should be a multi system thinker. Only because of this I've learned to use very different physics models, astrological systems - example: simultan different progressions - or hand reading systems.
I don't work with any Vedic system and it seems to me very complicate to go deeper into the discussion here, it's still a hand reading forum. I only wanted to point on the fact that still the most Vedic astrologists use the Siderical Zodiac.
All in all: From my point of view I can't add here anything essential without repeat the further statement.

May be I didn't express it right, but for me it's very important to count on a developement of the man and man's kind of counciousness in history.

Regards
Manfred

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