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Structure and Function= Hand Lines?

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Structure and Function= Hand Lines?

Post  Grace N. on Thu Feb 18, 2016 1:05 am

If anyone is interested enough to take the time to read and/or respond I would appreciate any clarification you may offer. What I am trying to grasp is the microscale picture here. I’ve been meaning to ask this question for months, but I wanted to wait until I had some more clarity on the question I was asking. I haven’t gained that much more clarity, so I want to ask while I have the chance. Sorry it’s so long….it was around 5 pages before and I decided I was rambling too much and cut a lot out.
First off, I want to say that I respect (and enjoy) all of the explanations that stem from tradition, and do not mean to discredit them in my seeking, yet I am looking for solely a scientific explanation to tie it together. I understand that the majority of the statements in my own understanding I make are extremely oversimplified. This is probably the root of my dilemma, because I’m learning that the science of palmistry is complicated and I simply do not have enough information to put it together. (Details are important!) Basically, I need more pieces to the puzzle, and should buy books instead of paroosing various websites with conflicting information. However, I have been reading some scientific articles on some topics though since I have access through my university.

I used to accept “spiritual” explanations more easily (and they are fine), but I now want to know the “how” scientific version of palmistry also.

From a biological standpoint, as a biology student, I know that everything biological can be broken down into mere chemical reactions. And just slightly more complicated than this, every process requires the synthesis of organic compounds, ( amino acids, fatty acids, nucleic acids etc.) which are transcripted from your RNA which has been copied down from your DNA in your cells etc. These organic compounds, especially proteins, make you who you are today. Aka structure and function. Much of what we feel, how we think, what we look like, and our preferences, can be explained by a myriad of chemical reactions that have occurred in the present, as well as the past, even as far back as the actions and habits of ancestors, who’s preferences shaped our own (genetic predisposition).

So yes, I get that part. Structure and function goes hand in hand Smile with categorizing people’s hand shape, bone structure, color, texture with health and personalities, simply because hormones (influenced by environment, genetics etc.) affect our brains, amongst other things. Which is really cool….

It may seem that I’m going in circles here, but what I am saying in a nutshell is that I understand these things:
1. Our pleasure/pain preference (and therefore our behavior/personality) is shaped by the totality of our DNA (ancestors’ experience) and our current/past experiences.
2. Many aspects of personality, physical physique, and abilities be narrowed down to be the totality of pleasure/pain responses, the exposure to hormones, which were/are synthesized previous to birth by means of genetic factors (and sometimes chemical exposure), and the choices we make to change the way we think/act, because although our brains may be predetermined through DNA to prefer certain things, we can always choose to develop other aspects of ourselves. We are still in control of a portion of our chemical factory.
3. Health conditions on the nails, bone formations, skin condition etc. can be seen through the same “Structure and Function” theory.

This is what I do not understand:
1. How does personality, intelligence, etc. relate to mounts and lines? How can lines explain such great amounts of information? Why do these lines/mounts correlate to your biochemical makeup? How does their formation correlate to biochemistry (function)? Or the opposite, how does biochemistry and personality make up, correlate to line formation? How does this occur?

Much of science is observing a trend and reporting that trend. Sometimes it’s easier to understand nature by looking at her workings in hindsight and then making conclusions. So, if we have 10000 sets of hands and a proportion of them have this hand characteristic combined physiological/psychological characteristic, then we can correlate the hand characteristic to the physiological/ psychological characteristic? This is how studies are done I guess.

I haven’t been able to get a solid answer anywhere to my “how” question though. It seems like a lot of people just jump around the topic discussing the spiritual theory about chi/prana/energy flow creating lines (which is great and all), without addressing the scientific explanation.
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Re: Structure and Function= Hand Lines?

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 18, 2016 1:58 pm

Grace N. wrote:...

This is what I do not understand:
1. How does personality, intelligence, etc. relate to mounts and lines?  How can lines explain such great amounts of information? Why do these lines/mounts correlate to your biochemical makeup? How does their formation correlate to biochemistry (function)? Or the opposite, how does biochemistry and personality make up, correlate to line formation?  How does this occur?

...

Thumb up

Excellent post Grace N + thanks for posting your question.

I appreciate your thorough presentation, but I hope you don't mind that I prefer to give you a short & simple answer:

- Regarding the so-called 'mounts':

First of all, please be aware that the concept of the 'mounts' can be recognized to represent a typical construct that is basically only used in the (non-scientific) field of palmistry.

In the scientific perspective there is no likewise concept available similar to the 'mounts'... which signals that the concept of the 'mounts' bares hardly any significance in terms of scientific validity. In my perception this is likely the result of the fact that it is actually sort of IMPOSSIBLE to assess the development of the mounts in a precise objective manner, and therefore I can only recommend to take this aspect of palmistry with a pinch of salt... and thus there is also no scientific explanation available in support.


- Regarding the so-called 'lines':

Even though scientific research has pointed out that the (major) lines bare diagnostic significance, one should be aware that the significance is a bit different from what palmistry theories suggest regarding individual lines.

Because in palmistry theories in general suggest that every line sort of has a unique specific meaning. However, in the perspective of science only the major lines & some minor lines have been confirmed to relate with various diagnostic themes... but it is also important to be aware that this significance is usually not focussed on the line in isolation.

Let me give you an example:

The simian line is generally known to have an association with Down syndrome (+ many other syndromes). However, regarding a person's hands a simian line can only become significant for Down syndrome when a likewise associated constellation of dermatoglyphic patterns is present.

So, if a person has a simian line... and if this person does NOT have a dermatoglyphic constellation associated with Down syndrome, the one can say that the simian line in this person is not significant for Down syndrome!

I think this example illustrates how in the scientific perspective a thorough approach is used, which is basically always missing in the 'folklore' based theories that are used in the field palmistry.

Unfortunately their is no scientific explanation available which directly explains HOW (or WHY) the simian line correlates with various syndromes... though I do think one can find an indirect answer in the fact that the simian line is recognized in medical science to represent a minor physical anomaly.


Grace N, I hope this feedback will become helpful for you somehow & I hope it will encourage you to continue folding out your thoughts!


flower

PS. Also be aware: palmists may sometimes suggest that their methods are based science... but their feedback & observations usually indicate that their methods include religious and/or pseudo-scientific concept.

___________________________________________
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Re: Structure and Function= Hand Lines?

Post  rajeevkrsharmaji on Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:23 pm

hello,

Scientifically, all planets revolve and produce magnetic field around them.
Our body has cells with electromagnetic field of their own and this may interact with the magnetic field of different planets. The magnetic field around us can be captured by specialized cameras and it interacts with the wavelengths in its surroundings.

As for lines; one school of though regards them as flow of energy (Benhem). The body being connected to surrounding energies by receptors(fingers) which let the energy flow to the concerned receptors (mounts). BUT , this is again an unproved theory which i think will remain unproved possibly forever as it is a very formidable task to undertake a research leading to any kind of a null hypothesis.

But none of us can deny the involvement of our state of mind and release of chemical neurotransmitters like endorphins, enkephelins etc which affect our happiness, sadness, pain perceptions in different situations.

Basically, my view is " See the lines in reference to the person" and not the other way round.

Regards
Rajeev


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Re: Structure and Function= Hand Lines?

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:00 pm

rajeevkrsharmaji wrote:hello,

Scientifically, all planets revolve and produce magnetic field around them.
Our body has cells with electromagnetic field of their own and this may interact with the magnetic field of different planets. The magnetic field around us can be captured by specialized cameras and it interacts with the wavelengths in its surroundings.

Sounds like you are indirectly referring here to astrology... because it appears that you are pointing indirectly to the theory which connects the mounts with the planets. However, even though mass is featured with gravity/magnetism, this fact itself does not explain any part of palmistry at all. Therefore I think your reference to scientific phenomena is not much different from any pseudoscientific explanation.

rajeevkrsharmaji wrote:As for lines; one school of though regards them as flow of energy (Benhem). The body being connected to surrounding energies by receptors(fingers) which let the energy flow to the concerned receptors (mounts). BUT , this is again an unproved theory which i think will remain unproved possibly forever as it is a very formidable task to undertake a research leading to any kind of a null hypothesis.

But none of us can deny the involvement of our state of mind and release of chemical neurotransmitters like endorphins, enkephelins etc which affect our happiness, sadness, pain perceptions in different situations.

Basically, my view is " See  the lines in reference to the person" and not  the other way round.

Regards
Rajeev

Benham's theories are indeed based on believes from more than 100 years ago (Benham believed that cosmic energy enters the body via the index finger... which is merely a religious belief); his ideas include rather diffuse concepts involving (unspecified) 'energy' which do not really provide any form of scientific explanation.

So, even though Benham considered his ideas back then to represent 'science'... today his ideas can be recognized to have become outdated (and more or less to represent actually a form of pseudoscience).


Anyway, thanks for your input Rajeev.


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

___________________________________________
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Re: Structure and Function= Hand Lines?

Post  rajeevkrsharmaji on Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:11 pm

Thanks Martijn,


Do you have any scientific research which disapproves the connection between palmistry and Astrology ?

Are there any meta analyses which disapprove the so called "oudated and pseudoscientific views"?



Regards
Rajeev


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Re: Structure and Function= Hand Lines?

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:19 pm

rajeevkrsharmaji wrote:Thanks Martijn,


Do you have any scientific research which disapproves the connection between palmistry and Astrology ?

Are there any meta analyses which disapprove the so called "oudated and pseudoscientific views"?



Regards
Rajeev


Rajeev, I hope you recognize how astrology can be recognized to represent a form of pseudoscience.

In this perspective, maybe your request for 'scientific research' & 'meta analyses' might not be very realistic... because the relationship between astrology and palmistry itself represent merely a belief system (which can be described to represent a form of folklore).

I hope this makes sense?


wave

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Re: Structure and Function= Hand Lines?

Post  rajeevkrsharmaji on Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:41 pm

No, it does not make any sense !
Without having a scientific evidence i dont expect a hand researcher to label it as a pseudoscience.

Its probably a psedobelief that it is a pseudoscience, unless proved otherwise.

But yes, there is a lot to be done in the field with open mind without beliefs or pseudobeliefs. Thanks!

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Re: Structure and Function= Hand Lines?

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:20 pm

rajeevkrsharmaji wrote:No, it does not make any sense !
Without having a scientific evidence i dont expect a hand researcher to label it as a pseudoscience.

Its probably a psedobelief that it is a pseudoscience, unless proved otherwise.

But yes, there is a lot to be done in the field with open mind without beliefs or pseudobeliefs. Thanks!

Well rajeev, here's an example of evidence which points out that astrology is itself associated with pseudoscientific believes:

"Distinguishing scientific facts and theories from pseudoscientific beliefs such as those found in astrology, alchemy, medical quackery, occult beliefs, and creation science combined with scientific concepts, is part of science education and scientific literacy."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience

NOTICE: This Wikipedia page refers to astrology quite a lot of times... and in that perspective I think it is pretty obvious that any association between palmistry and astrology can not be based on any valid form of science.


Now, I will try to explain my earlier response to your first request:

"Do you have any scientific research which disapproves the connection between palmistry and Astrology ?"

Sorry Rajeev, from your words I can not even tell what you have in mind exactly. However, because I am aware that astrology is widely recognized to represent a pseudoscience... (which you appear doubt)... I think it is obvious that any connection between palmistry and astrology can fundamentally be recognized to represent sort of a pseudo-scientific construction.

The similar use of terminology (e.g. whenever astrology and palmistry refer to the planets) is basically a form of folklore... not to mention that many astrologist & palmists tend to develop their own perceptions & associations regarding the planets, etc.

Here's a more thorough analysis which explains how astrology can be recognized to represent a form of "an ancient folk tradition": http://www.williamjames.com/Folklore/ASTROLOG.htm

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Re: Structure and Function= Hand Lines?

Post  Grace N. on Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:22 am

Thank you for your simple and direct answer Martijn. Thumbs up! It is taking me a while to digest because it causes me to have more questions.

In summary, in relation to mounts and lines there is NO explanation of HOW and WHY they correlate to characteristics. (yet!....) (And I understand why these are not scientific measurements as they are not quantitative but qualitative qualities that cannot be put into scientific papers. )

Instead, markings such as the simian line are correlations, which are not always found in all individuals. So that every individual with a simian line does not have to have Down syndrome, but a percentage do have it and thus it is considered a marker.

But, does every individual with Down syndrome have a simian line?

Rajeev,
I understand where you are coming from with electromagnetic fields, which is correlated to auras and spiritual energy by many. I have read about many of these topics. So yes, you are trying to correlate our magnetic fields to the state of the person. Healthy cells have stronger magnetic fields. I think that at its most basic level this is proven by the most mainstream scientists. Of course the astrology part is not talked about in science.

Based upon my (very) limited observations in the United States at least, there is a great separation between scientific information and spiritual/religious information in society which makes people feel uncomfortable in trying to merge them. I am trying to keep an open mind regarding both ends.
Broadly generalized, the most scientific of the population will not acknowledge that maybe there is a deeper pattern at work that spiritual/religious systems have picked up on and vice versa.

For example, at the most basic level without adding too much superstition, the phenomena in nature can be broken down into mathematics, phi, golden mean ratios etc which then affect physics, chemistry, biology and much of the universe from there. Although some ancient societies have known about these mathematical patterns for thousands of years, have drawn them in their ancient texts, and used them in their architecture in purely genius ways (too perfect to be merely coincidence), we are only beginning to rediscover much of this knowledge now.

I guess I am trying to reverse engineer what is already known and bring it back to molecules so that is explainable and concrete and not simply observations.

So… back on the subject of palmistry, do you Martijn, Rajeev, (or anyone else) believe that the observations of many palmists can be explained by science in the future?


I find the studies regarding 2D:4D to be interesting, and it is the most clear cut example I have seen so far that proves physiology to be connected with psychology. It also appears to be the most studied.

Certainly it would be impossible to track every chemical reaction in the human body but I’ve often wondered if you could trace lines such as the intuition line for example (which is attributed to lucid dreaming in part) to increased production of hormones in the pineal gland such as DMT, Melatonin and in your pituitary Growth Hormone, Oxytocin by means of a simple blood test.

I need to think about this more later, I'm hurting my brain.
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Re: Structure and Function= Hand Lines?

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:31 pm

Grace N. wrote:Thank you for your simple and direct answer Martijn.   Thumbs up!  It is taking me a while to digest because it causes me to have more questions.  

In summary, in relation to mounts and lines there is NO explanation of HOW and WHY they correlate to characteristics.  (yet!....)  (And I understand why these are not scientific measurements as they are not quantitative but qualitative qualities that cannot be put into scientific papers. )

Instead, markings such as the simian line are correlations, which are not always found in all individuals.  So that every individual with a simian line does not have to have Down syndrome, but a percentage do have it and thus it is considered a marker.

But, does every individual with Down syndrome have a simian line?

...  

Hi again Grace,

Regarding your question:

For sure, not every Down syndrome individual has a simian line

Usually only close to a majority of Down syndrome people have a simian line; I have presented some percentages for various populations in the worlds here:
http://simianline.handresearch.com/simianline/simian-line-health.htm

(I will provide a response to your other questions at a later moment)


PS. There are some other syndromes where the percentage is even higher than in Down syndrome, but those syndromes always display a different constellation in terms of the dermatoglyphics... which kind of provides a clue that the role of the simian line should always be assessed in the perspective of the dermatoglyphics: I perceive this form of dynamics to represent an excellent example providing support for the concept which I named 'multi-perspective hand reading'.

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Re: Structure and Function= Hand Lines?

Post  Grace N. on Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:35 pm

Thanks Martijn,
I will be looking into it.
sunny
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structure and fractured hand

Post  nishaghai on Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:02 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Grace N. wrote:...

This is what I do not understand:
1. How does personality, intelligence, etc. relate to mounts and lines?  How can lines explain such great amounts of information? Why do these lines/mounts correlate to your biochemical makeup? How does their formation correlate to biochemistry (function)? Or the opposite, how does biochemistry and personality make up, correlate to line formation?  How does this occur?

...

Thumb up

Excellent post Grace N + thanks for posting your question.

I appreciate your thorough presentation, but I hope you don't mind that I prefer to give you a short & simple answer:

- Regarding the so-called 'mounts':

First of all, please be aware that the concept of the 'mounts' can be recognized to represent a typical construct that is basically only used in the (non-scientific) field of palmistry.

In the scientific perspective there is no likewise concept available similar to the 'mounts'... which signals that the concept of the 'mounts' bares hardly any significance in terms of scientific validity. In my perception this is likely the result of the fact that it is actually sort of IMPOSSIBLE to assess the development of the mounts in a precise objective manner, and therefore I can only recommend to take this aspect of palmistry with a pinch of salt... and thus there is also no scientific explanation available in support.


- Regarding the so-called 'lines':

Even though scientific research has pointed out that the (major) lines bare diagnostic significance, one should be aware that the significance is a bit different from what palmistry theories suggest regarding individual lines.

Because in palmistry theories in general suggest that every line sort of has a unique specific meaning. However, in the perspective of science only the major lines & some minor lines have been confirmed to relate with various diagnostic themes... but it is also important to be aware that this significance is usually not focussed on the line in isolation.

Let me give you an example:

The simian line is generally known to have an association with Down syndrome (+ many other syndromes). However, regarding a person's hands a simian line can only become significant for Down syndrome when a likewise associated constellation of dermatoglyphic patterns is present.

So, if a person has a simian line... and if this person does NOT have a dermatoglyphic constellation associated with Down syndrome, the one can say that the simian line in this person is not significant for Down syndrome!

I think this example illustrates how in the scientific perspective a thorough approach is used, which is basically always missing in the 'folklore' based theories that are used in the field palmistry.

Unfortunately their is no scientific explanation available which directly explains HOW (or WHY) the simian line correlates with various syndromes... though I do think one can find an indirect answer in the fact that the simian line is recognized in medical science to represent a minor physical anomaly.


Grace N, I hope this feedback will become helpful for you somehow & I hope it will encourage you to continue folding out your thoughts!


flower

PS. Also be aware: palmists may sometimes suggest that their methods are based science... but their feedback & observations usually indicate that their methods include religious and/or pseudo-scientific concept.


well said
Nisha Ghai Thumb up
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Re: Structure and Function= Hand Lines?

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:44 pm

Grace N. wrote:...

So…  back on the subject of palmistry,  do you Martijn, Rajeev, (or anyone else) believe that the observations of many palmists can be explained by science in the future?  


I find the studies regarding 2D:4D to be interesting, and it is the most clear cut example I have seen so far that proves physiology to be connected with psychology.   It also appears to be the most studied.

Certainly it would be impossible to track every chemical reaction in the human body but I’ve often wondered if you could trace lines such as the intuition line for example (which is attributed to lucid dreaming in part)  to increased production of hormones in the pineal gland such as DMT, Melatonin and in your pituitary Growth Hormone, Oxytocin by means of a simple blood test.  

I need to think about this more later,  I'm hurting my brain.  

Unfortunately, most observations reported by palmists are quite diffuse (often because of the use of religious/philosophic concepts) featured with at best anecdotal evidence.

Therefore, I don't think that one should expect science to 'explain' the observations made by palmists... simply because it usually involved observations of arbitrary nature.


Regarding the 2d:4d digit ratio:

Yes indeed, it represent a valuable body marker which sort of shows how behavior correlates with physiology... though even in significant relationships (such as seen in the correlation between a low 2d:4d digit ratio and autistic spectrum disorder & ADHD) the strength of the correlation is never very strong. In my perception this also illustrates the need to combine the 2d:4d digit ratio with other hand signs in order to make any sort of reliable assessment - just like I described for the simian line to be assessed combined with the perspective of the dermatoglyphics.

So, combining is essential.

However, for developing realistic ideas and expectations... I think it is crucial to be aware that nearly all theories used in the field of palmistry are focussed on isolated hand signs. Unfortunately scientific research has hardly produced any research results which actually provides support for this (isolated) classic approach.

My conclusion in short: I perceive that the field of palmistry has to become more sophisticated in order step away from the so-called 'pseudosciences', because even though may palmistry students have putten their trust on palmistry theories... the truth is also that in the academic world  'palmistry' is itself usually recognized to represent a 'pseudoscience' - for a wide spectrum of reasons.

Not sure, I hope that these observations won't disencourage you Grace.


Thanks!

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Re: Structure and Function= Hand Lines?

Post  Grace N. on Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:29 am

I understand your points Martjin. Sorry for the late reply, I have been focusing on lots of assignments, scholarship applications etc. due this week, and I’d rather give a thoughtful response rather than a rushed one.

Yes, I have seen clearly in many posts on this site and with the various disorders how one sign or characteristic does not indicate anything at all. Human nature is quite complex and is accumulative after all, so this makes sense. It is similar to diagnosing diseases, multiple symptoms may be present, but you need the right combination to make an accurate assessment.

I was just reading recently that researchers are beginning to characterize brain shapes to personality types. It just seems so suspiciously parallel to hand shapes, in my own mind anyway. I recently took a Myers-Briggs personality test, and I noticed that the results were similar to what I had gathered from studying palmistry. And no, your brief conclusion is not discouraging, I appreciate your input but I just do this for fun and to expand my thought.

I looked at that large chart you've just recently uploaded. It's certainly blowing my mind in a way. There is so much information being discovered within the past 50yrs or so.

I’ve found a cool article regarding 2D:4D and its connection with empathy called “The association between 2D:4D ratio and cognitive empathy is contingent on a common polymorphism in the oxytocin receptor gene (OXTR rs53576)”.

I’ll have to upload it and other interesting things I find onto the proper section when I have time to focus and give thought to them.

Thanks again. Thanks!
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