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X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:41 pm

Patti wrote:It's starting to look like the location of the delta may ruin the ridge count.

...
Sorry Patti, I see no basis for making that association at all.

Because in figure 33 in the book clearly shows that the position of the upward turning line from the DELTA is allowed to 'cross' the VIRTUAL LINE between the 'core' and the DELTA.


PS. One more thought regarding another example in advance:

We should not consider figure 34 as relevant for the Disney print, because in figure 34 we can see that the 'bifurcation' that could be associated with the DELTA actually violates the first rule for the DELTA (as described in the book on page 12 in the book): because the 'bifurcation' does not open towards the core.

This explains why in that example the DELTA is positioned at the endpoint of the right downward pointing ridge line.

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Post  Patti on Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:43 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:I can see at a glance that you are making big, big errors (in your favor, of course).

Two parallel lines that diverge.

They should not have ridge line between them.

Even if they are parallel a short distance and diverge they are counted. That is clearer in the 1933 print.


Have you noticed Martijn, how many times that an inconvenient rule pops up, you immediately tell us it is unimportant or insignificant. That is what I call 'smoke and mirrors'. You tell us to see what you want us to see and tell us not to notice what you don't want us to notice.

I think you correctly placed the lines in blue with red dots earlier when you didn't realize that they were important. You just followed what you saw.

The only place the delta can go after the two line I traced part ways is the next ridge in. You had called the areas outside your bananas ink blots. Are you now seeing them as ridge lines?

[color=darkred]Patti, I assume that your first 4 comments relate to the 'type lines'?

The 'type lines' definition on page 7 says:

"Type lines may be defined as the two innermost ridges which start parallel, diverge, and surround or tent to surround the pattern area."


Patti, first of all: you describe that the 'type lines' are required... quoted from your words: "...should not have ridge line between them."

But where did you find such a requirement? Figure 27 & figure 30 clearly show that the types (T and T) can have a ridge between them. So, the requirement that you described... does not exist at all!

Banana waving

Banana waving


In fig. 27, the reason you do not count the bifurcating ridge between the type lines is because this bifurcating ridge does not qualify as a type line. It does not run parallel with another ridge T or T and part ways. So the next ridge has to be selected. It has to be two ridges running parallel, even a very short distance, that diverge and part ways. The ridge in the middle parts ways from the ridges on each side. <edit> should continue to say basically, it doesn't split and part ways, it splits and continues to run parallel to each side. Rules says it must run parallel and then both type lines diverge from each other. T and T were the only two ridges that diverged.

The same thing in 30. The center short ridge does not diverge so you have to choose the closest two ridges that diverge.

In Disney's print, the reason you are having difficulty finding the delta, is 1) it's not a loop
and 2) you are ignoring the location I put the purple dot. It is a bifurcation, but it splits in such a way as it spoils the idea of a loop and makes the tented arch obvious.

I apologize if I've been over the top with the 'banana, egg and illusion' accusations.

Maybe saying things to me like "cherished delusion" egged me on.

I can see now that it may be that you were not really aware of the rules of the fingerprints when you began your argument for a radial loop. Your assessment was really based on what it looked like to your eyes. From there you set about showing us only ways to see a radial loop. But, along the way, the rules have made that difficult.

Perhaps that's how the FBI narrowed down their rules.

Lynn, I appreciate your thoughts. I keep wondering about the time I've put into this. I can say I've learned a whole lot more than I knew. I had already researched Disney's tented arch before I posted as I've been working on writing about Disney's hands for a couple of months.

I think it's pretty obvious now that we've worked through the rules, it is a tented arch and not a radial loop.


Last edited by Patti on Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:01 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn, Excuse me.

Do you know what the recurve is? You don't find it by running up the side to see when the side curves inward.

You find the "recurve" area first. The recurve is another designation. This time it is a span. It is the official space known as "between the shoulders". The shoulders are where you put little x's and then draw the Shoulder line across.

You do NOT find the recurve by running up the side of a loop.
Rolling Eyes

This is why I had you both look at 186 when choosing the core. Obviously they go midway between the shoulders.

<edit> actually you could find the recurve by running up the side of the loop, but you don't stop when IT starts to curve or move inward. You have to rise up one side, go over the top, and down the other side. The "over the top" is the recurve area. You're either on the top or you are on one of the sides. The shoulder is the spot where the recurve ends and the side begins. The side does not count when talking about spikes and short abutting ridges only the space between the shoulders.

Since there are spikes and short abutting ridges on the outside of the possibly recurving ridge, this area is of great importance to whether this is a tented arch or a loop.

Patti, in my new picture you should be able to see that the 'top' of the recurving line is found BETWEEN 'my shoulders'!!

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 14 1937-l20

In my longer post I refered to the ASYMMETRIC shape of the recurving ridge line. But I could add that therefore it only makes sense that 'my shoulder line' does show a perfect asymmetric shape. But sides of the shoulders are almost of equal size.


PS. I admit that in my former 'shoulder line' the visual ASYMMETRIC effect was significantly larger. But basically, I actually DESCRIBED how I found 'my shoulder line'... while in your attempt you only drew a line ... and started talking about 'small ink dot' that is only seen in the 1933 print.

Actually, I think your consideration regarding the 'small ink dot' is unfounded: simply because the 'small ink dot' itself is not a part of the left 'shoulder'. But again, because of the problem with the abundance of the ink and because it is not seen at all in the 'light 1937 print'... I simply prefer not to include that 'small ink dot' in any of our assessment considerations. And for the same reasons I have the same opinion about the other 'ink dot' (seen between the central ridge line and 'bifurcation 4').

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Post  Patti on Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:04 pm

Martijn,
You must find your accurate type lines and delta.

I think you will then find your efforts to place the core below the shoulders will be wasted time.
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Post  Patti on Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:07 pm

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 14 Right_11

Right index fingerprint for comparison. Mirrored and shown in negative for clarity. White lines on left and right examples are ridges. Black lines in middle print are the ridges.
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Post  Patti on Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:39 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:It's starting to look like the location of the delta may ruin the ridge count.

...
Sorry Patti, I see no basis for making that association at all.

Because in figure 33 in the book clearly shows that the position of the upward turning line from the DELTA is allowed to 'cross' the VIRTUAL LINE between the 'core' and the DELTA.


PS. One more thought regarding another example in advance:

We should not consider figure 34 as relevant for the Disney print, because in figure 34 we can see that the 'bifurcation' that could be associated with the DELTA actually violates the first rule for the DELTA (as described in the book on page 12 in the book): because the 'bifurcation' does not open towards the core.

This explains why in that example the DELTA is positioned at the endpoint of the right downward pointing ridge line.

Martijn,
I think you are misunderstanding "open towards the core".

Look at all the examples of those with marked deltas on bifurcations that say they are open toward the core. That means that both limbs of the bifurcating ridge go in such a way the delta point is exposed to the core.

Imagine a V shape of a bird flying. The head between the wings is the delta. The outstretched wings are open. The head is facing the core. Open to the core.

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Post  Patti on Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:44 pm

To add another visual to that besides bird. I tend to hold out my hand and stretch my thumb and index finger out. Thumb and index are the different limbs of the bifurcation - or splitting ridges. That space where my thumb meets the palm, I'll call the delta, needs to be open to the core.
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Post  Patti on Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:12 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:I can see at a glance that you are making big, big errors (in your favor, of course).

Two parallel lines that diverge.

They should not have ridge line between them.

Even if they are parallel a short distance and diverge they are counted. That is clearer in the 1933 print.


Have you noticed Martijn, how many times that an inconvenient rule pops up, you immediately tell us it is unimportant or insignificant. That is what I call 'smoke and mirrors'. You tell us to see what you want us to see and tell us not to notice what you don't want us to notice.

I think you correctly placed the lines in blue with red dots earlier when you didn't realize that they were important. You just followed what you saw.

The only place the delta can go after the two line I traced part ways is the next ridge in. You had called the areas outside your bananas ink blots. Are you now seeing them as ridge lines?

Patti, I assume that your first 4 comments relate to the 'type lines'?

The 'type lines' definition on page 7 says:

"Type lines may be defined as the two innermost ridges which start parallel, diverge, and surround or tent to surround the pattern area."


Patti, first of all: you describe that the 'type lines' are required... quoted from your words: "...should not have ridge line between them."

But where did you find such a requirement? Figure 27 & figure 30 clearly show that the types (T and T) can have a ridge between them. So, the requirement that you described... does not exist at all!

Banana waving

Second, if you would have looked at my 'blue lines' closely... then you should have noticed that my blue lines do diverge!

Banana waving


thinking Third, yes ... after looking closely at figure 28 in the F.B.I. book, I can see that I did made a mistake as well:

Despite that I had to point out that you created yourself a 'new rule' (which doesn't exist at all!), and you made an incorrect observation regarding my 'blue lines' (they do diverge!),... yes, I must admit that I did make a mistake here... because I should have drawn the lower type line at another ridge line, see the picture below!

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 14 1937-l20

Rock on! ... During this discussion my drawings have shown a high level of consistancy, and with the help of your feedback & Lynn's feedback my pictures kept improving:

I have now also hightlightened the 'top' of the recurve with the same 'red dot' that I used earlier in my pictures, and I have also slightly lifted the right sight of the 'shoulder' - following the suggestion made by Lynn.

Resulting in that we can now clearly see that 'my shoulders' are not only following the rule that they are found at the point where the "recurving ridge definitely turns inwards or curves", we can also see that both sides also show is a high level of SYMMETRY in the perspective of the 'top'!


Finally, regarding your last point related to the delta... I am not sure what you are trying to say there. But I now would like to describe explictely why the DELTA is found at the location which I described in my former post (see the picture above):

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 14 1937-l21

First of all, the picture below clearly shows why we are faced with the problem of identifying the position of the DELTA... because there is no clear 'triradius' seen in this print... however, there are 5 'bifurcations' that could be associated with the delta - but after the following two considerations if becomes very obvious why only 'bifurcation 1' can be described as the delta!

But only 'bifurcation 1' and 'bifurcation 2' meet the first criterium for the DELTA desribed at page 12 of the book (I quote again):

"# The delta may not be located at a bifurcation which does not open toward the core."

'Bifurcation 3, 4 and 5' do not meet this criterium - so we only need to consider the other two!

And because 'bifurcation 1' and 'bifurcation 2' can be recognized as a SERIES OF BIFURCATIONS, we can apply the third rule described at page 12 of the book:

"# When there is a series of bifurcations opening toward the core at the point of divergence of the two type lines, the bifurcation nearest the core is chosen as the delta."

Therefore I am 100% sure that 'bifurcation 1' can only be described as the DELTA!


Patti, I hope you now recognize that my mistake regarding the lower 'type line' has no implications for my assessment that in the Disney print we can CLEARLY identify the 3 essential requirements for a loop (quoted from page 18 in the F.B.I. book):

- A sufficient recurve
- A delta
- A ridge count across a looping ridge.

The picture below shows all essential elements, which clearly indicate that the Disney print is ... a RADIAL LOOP:

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 14 1937-l22

The original print might be helpful as a point of reference:

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 14 1937-l23


PS. Patti, I also would like to add the following thought:

In my first attempt I hardly explained my 'type lines'... so your accusation regarding that I am fouling-around-with-the-rules (my words) is unfounded... let's be reasonable: if I make a mistake you should not translate that into that I am trying to change the rules. Especially, when the mistake has no consequences regarding my assessment at all! Very Happy

And I do not recognize at all how my mistake was 'in my favour'... like you suggested!

And it is quite funny that while you make these unfounded accusations (for sure, I did not describe any incorrect rule regarding the 'type lines' because I in that post I only quoted from the book regarding the requirements)... you actually described YOURSELF an incorrect rule.


Patti we all make mistakes... but you should never ever make the assumption that I am making them 'with a purpose'. I can only hope that you will at least give it a thought about why you made these suggestions - because again... I mentioned this already quite a few times...

I never tried to 'trick' you anyhow!


Thanks!

Problem is Martijn,
You are making fundamental mistakes with your rules.

Then you go into great length explaining just how right you are - and you not only have the rules wrong in your head but in your application that you are trying to justify yourself.

You even state the FBI made a mistake in their example. Actually, it was studying that example and others that confused me that I realized long ago what they meant by "open to the core". They didn't make mistakes. If they did, don't you think it would have been corrected in later editions??

They tell you to study a series of examples to understand. They didn't put mistakes in those series!

<EDIT>
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:


PS. One more thought regarding another example in advance:

We should not consider figure 34 as relevant for the Disney print, because in figure 34 we can see that the 'bifurcation' that could be associated with the DELTA actually violates the first rule for the DELTA (as described in the book on page 12 in the book): because the 'bifurcation' does not open towards the core.

Ok, sorry for that. I read your words to say that fig. 34 violated the FBI's own rules from page 12. I can see they can be interpreted another way.


Last edited by Patti on Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:29 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post  Patti on Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:31 pm

Patti wrote:To add another visual to that besides bird. I tend to hold out my hand and stretch my thumb and index finger out. Thumb and index are the different limbs of the bifurcation - or splitting ridges. That space where my thumb meets the palm, I'll call the delta, needs to be open to the core.

Look closely at fig. 31. Notice how there are bifurcations or splitting lines on both type lines, going in both directions? They say "The bifurcations cannot be considered as they do not open to the core." When you study them, you can see they open to each side. That leaves A-A and B-B the type lines. And the delta (the dot) is exposed or open to the core.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 14 Fig03110

In fig. 26, the bifurcation at E is 'open to the rods' coming up to it and not the core.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 14 Fig02611

See the dotted line to the Delta from the Core. Notice how it is drawn right to the delta from the core.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:37 pm

Patti wrote:...

I apologize if I've been over the top with the 'banana, egg and illusion' accusations.

Maybe saying things to me like "cherished delusion" egged me on.

I can see now that it may be that you were not really aware of the rules of the fingerprints when you began your argument for a radial loop. Your assessment was really based on what it looked like to your eyes. From there you set about showing us only ways to see a radial loop. But, along the way, the rules have made that difficult.

Perhaps that's how the FBI narrowed down their rules.

Lynn, I appreciate your thoughts. I keep wondering about the time I've put into this. I can say I've learned a whole lot more than I knew. I had already researched Disney's tented arch before I posted as I've been working on writing about Disney's hands for a couple of months.

I think it's pretty obvious now that we've worked through the rules, it is a tented arch and not a radial loop.

Patti, regarding your apollogy... Thumbs up!

Thank you for your making that apollogy, and of course I accept the related explanation: your explanation perfectly makes sense for me. I recognize how some of my words & emoticons made you go 'over the top'. Very Happy


Regarding the comment that followed + your conclusion so far...

My thought is that so far maybe there are only three people in the world who have studied the 3 versions of Walt Disney's left index fingerprint with the F.B.I. book in their hands.

And after two weeks of discussion.... geek ... focussed on considerations about many details described in the F.B.I. book 'The Science of Fingerprint'... the situation appears to be right now (see also the new picture below):

- Only one of those three people prefers to describe it as a 'tented arch', however the INK ELEMENTS - that could indeed be used for that assessment (I acknowledge that!) - are seen in only two of the three prints: the 2nd and the 3rd print in the picture below. But the first print present contradictive evidence against that assessment!

- And two of those three persons concluded that the Disney's fingerprint can safely be described as a 'radial loop' - because the required INK ELEMENTS are found in all three versions of Disney's fingerprint: see the picture below.

(However, this second conclusion can not be understood properly without the consideration regarding the abundance of ink in the 2nd and 3th print - which resulted in well described confusing elements. These confusing elements are described earlier in this discussion as e.g.: the 'appearant upthrust', the '8-pointed-star', and the 'small ink dot' - but there are no traces of these elements in the 1st print)



The picture below shows where the required elements for a 'radial loop' can be spotted in all 3 versions of Walt Disney's left index fingeprint. The brown lines in the 3rd print are creases (some of them can be spotted in the other two prints as well, but there they become manifest in a different shape: as interruptions in the ridge lines).

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 14 1933-112

___________________________________________
sunny

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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:47 pm

Patti wrote:...

You even state the FBI made a mistake in their example. Actually, it was studying that example and others that confused me that I realized long ago what they meant by "open to the core". They didn't make mistakes. If they did, don't you think it would have been corrected in later editions??


Patti, where do you think that I have stated that the FBI made a mistake?

I did not make such an ambitious claim! You probably simply misread my words (again). Unfortunately I can not post a more specified response because you have not substantiated your accusation with a quote from my words. But if you find out that you misread my words... please delete that accusation from your post!

___________________________________________
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Post  Patti on Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:53 pm


(sorry Disney for bringing OZ into the picture)


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Post  Patti on Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:00 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:


PS. One more thought regarding another example in advance:

We should not consider figure 34 as relevant for the Disney print, because in figure 34 we can see that the 'bifurcation' that could be associated with the DELTA actually violates the first rule for the DELTA (as described in the book on page 12 in the book): because the 'bifurcation' does not open towards the core.

Ok, sorry for that. I read your words to say that fig. 34 violated the FBI's own rules from page 12. I can see they can be interpreted another way.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:07 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:


PS. One more thought regarding another example in advance:

We should not consider figure 34 as relevant for the Disney print, because in figure 34 we can see that the 'bifurcation' that could be associated with the DELTA actually violates the first rule for the DELTA (as described in the book on page 12 in the book): because the 'bifurcation' does not open towards the core.

Ok, sorry for that. I read your words to say that fig. 34 violated the FBI's own rules from page 12. I can see they can be interpreted another way.

Patti, thanks for confirming that you completely misread my words.

No problem at all.
But will you please delete the passage with the accusation from your earlier post? (Then I will delete our posts related to your accusation... including this one)

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Post  Patti on Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:12 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:...

I apologize if I've been over the top with the 'banana, egg and illusion' accusations.

Maybe saying things to me like "cherished delusion" egged me on.

I can see now that it may be that you were not really aware of the rules of the fingerprints when you began your argument for a radial loop. Your assessment was really based on what it looked like to your eyes. From there you set about showing us only ways to see a radial loop. But, along the way, the rules have made that difficult.

Perhaps that's how the FBI narrowed down their rules.

Lynn, I appreciate your thoughts. I keep wondering about the time I've put into this. I can say I've learned a whole lot more than I knew. I had already researched Disney's tented arch before I posted as I've been working on writing about Disney's hands for a couple of months.

I think it's pretty obvious now that we've worked through the rules, it is a tented arch and not a radial loop.

Patti, regarding your apollogy... Thumbs up!

Thank you for your making that apollogy, and of course I accept the related explanation: your explanation perfectly makes sense for me. I recognize how some of my words & emoticons made you go 'over the top'. Very Happy


Regarding the comment that followed + your conclusion so far...

My thought is that so far maybe there are only three people in the world who have studied the 3 versions of Walt Disney's left index fingerprint with the F.B.I. book in their hands.

And after two weeks of discussion.... geek ... focussed on considerations about many details described in the F.B.I. book 'The Science of Fingerprint'... the situation appears to be right now (see also the new picture below):

- Only one of those three people prefers to describe it as a 'tented arch', however the INK ELEMENTS - that could indeed be used for that assessment (I acknowledge that!) - are seen in only two of the three prints: the 2nd and the 3rd print in the picture below. But the first print present contradictive evidence against that assessment!

- And two of those three persons concluded that the Disney's fingerprint can safely be described as a 'radial loop' - because the required INK ELEMENTS are found in all three versions of Disney's fingerprint: see the picture below.

(However, this second conclusion can not be understood properly without the consideration regarding the abundance of ink in the 2nd and 3th print - which resulted in well described confusing elements. These confusing elements are described earlier in this discussion as e.g.: the 'appearant upthrust', the '8-pointed-star', and the 'small ink dot' - but there are no traces of these elements in the 1st print)



The picture below shows where the required elements for a 'radial loop' can be spotted in all 3 versions of Walt Disney's left index fingeprint. The brown lines in the 3rd print are creases (some of them can be spotted in the other two prints as well, but there they become manifest in a different shape: as interruptions in the ridge lines).

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 14 1933-112

While you boast and carry on about your delusion, I mean conclusion....

May I ask why you have chosen to ignore my post where I asked you to look at the orange lines?

Why do you choose to illustrate your delta without acknowledging the horizontal dark spot between where I put the purple spot and on the rod with the core on top?

Inconvenient truth Martijn?

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 14 Rebutt19

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Post  Patti on Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:19 pm

Lynn wrote:Hi Martijn & Patti, I said I was going to back and read the bits I'd only glanced over (after missing the start of this discussion when on holiday) - bifurcations, spikes, white patches, ink blobs, spoiled recurves etc. But actually I have a lot of other, more urgent, things to do. Sorry I am leaving this discussion to you two for now!

Patti's last drawing on 1933 print makes a convicing tented arch!

Thank you Lynn.

I'm going to interpret this as you have been convinced to hop off the fence in favor of tented arch.
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Post  Patti on Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:27 pm

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 14 A_tent11
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Post  Patti on Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:40 pm

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 14 A_tent11

The only places you can be confused with too much ink involved in the 1933 print in comparison to the 1937 prints is where you have been placing the delta and where you earlier placed an 8 pointed star.

By following the paths of the ridges of the dark 1937 print and the 1933 print you can tell what is in the so called "8 pointed star" location.

If you wish to point out too much ink. It is only in the green lines I have drawn above - and in this "8 pointed star" location.

These can easily be accounted for in two ways.

1) The red lines you drew earlier crossing the prints that were probably ink filled "white lines" or ink filled Creases. Your longest red horizontal line crosses exactly at this location.

2) The ridges actually split or bifurcate at that location, accounting for the thickness of the ridges or inked area and the easy drawing of the orange lines I drew in your illustrations.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 14 Rebutt20

With the tented arch, there is no need for explanation or illusion to see it. It's really as plain as the nose on your face!
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:05 pm

Patti wrote:
While you boast and carry on about your delusion, I mean conclusion....

May I ask why you have chosen to ignore my post where I asked you to look at the orange lines?

Why do you choose to illustrate your delta without acknowledging the horizontal dark spot between where I put the purple spot and on the rod with the core on top?

Inconvenient truth Martijn?

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 14 Rebutt19


Sorry Patti, for me there is no 'inconvenient truth' at all. Let me explain that issue once more with more details than I presented so far about that issue:


Earlier I have described that ALL THREE PRINTS indicate that the 'appearant upthrust' appears to the result of a CREASE.

You can see that CREASE e.g. illustrated as one of the brown lines in the 3rd print of the large picture that you quoted from my post.


My main point regarding your 'splitting orange line' is... that such a line does not reflect all elements that we see in that picturel... because you are IGNORING the fact that ALL THREE PRINTS clearly indicates that at that point we see also a ridge line going upwards!

More specified... it is exactly the point which I described as: 'bifurcation 4'.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 14 1937-l21


So, if we would add at that point the red line in the picture below... then we CREATE an impossibility... because we know that ridge lines never cross eachother, but CREASES... CAN cross ridge lines!!!


My earlier observation regarding how some of the inkdots in the '1933 print' (and the dark 1937 print) relate to CREASES - of which traces are seen in all three prints - perfectly explains this 'appearant upthrust'. But it can simply be explained as a combination of a ridge line + a crossing CREASE.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 14 1937-c12


Patti, all the way this discussion you have assumed that the '1933 print' that the red line should have been there in all three prints. And I am very aware that this assumption of yours provides a crucial element for your 'tented arch' assessment.

However...

The problem is... that the 'red line' is not really there at all: because there is evidence in all three prints that the ink-phenomena related to that element in the '1933 print' (and the dark 1937 print) are the result of a much longer CREASE... it is not a ridge line!!


PS. I am not sure if I have described this very well earlier in this discussion... but after saying this you should at least be able to understand why I rejected your suggestions on that element 'firmly'!!!


So, regarding my position... there is no 'inconvenient truth' involved at all. Maybe it would have been helpful for you if you had studied the details of my '8-pointed-star'... more seriously. Because that element directly relates to what I just described here about the impossible 'red line'!!!!!!!!

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Post  Lynn on Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:13 pm

Patti wrote:I'm going to interpret this as you have been convinced to hop off the fence in favor of tented arch.

I've realised I am not on a fence, I am on a see-saw! It changes direction frequently! lol!

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Post  Patti on Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:20 pm

Does it occur to you that you are only able to make your point, by using the light and extremely pixelated 1937 print?

Again, I rest my case.

No loop:

1) Delta can not be placed on a type line and therefore is placed on the side of the possibly recurving ridge at the bifurcation. Delta and Core cannot be counted in ridge count. No ridge count.

2) Core is below the shoulders. Core is moved to right shoulder. See rule above.

3) Upthrusts.

4) Spikes or short upthrusting ridges on the outside of the only possible recurving ridge.

There is no credible evidence for a loop. None whatsoever.

Tented Arch:

1) Upthrusts

2) Type lines form an arch with a pattern in it's center. Pattern in the center does not fit the qualifications for a loop. Any possible looping formation is spoiled resulting in a tented arch.

I too have other priorities and things that I have been neglecting that need my attention.

I will leave it at Tented Arch.

wave
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:47 pm

Patti wrote:Does it occur to you that you are only able to make your point, by using the light and extremely pixelated 1937 print?

Again, I rest my case.

...

confused Patti, it appears that you again must have misread somehow my post: because I actually have made my point with all three prints.

I clearly described that my observaton regarding the CREASES... is confirmed by all three prints.

And I remember, you actually described yourself as well that the CREASES manifest in the three prints via differents shapes. And especially in the 1933 print... you tell me:

How can we discriminate the 'ridge lines' from the CREASES?


So, there is no way out: we actually NEED the two 1937 prints to discriminate the creases from the 'ridge lines' in the '1933 print'!!

(I guess this 'proofs' that Lynn and I were correct about that the '1933 print'.. is the most problematic print of the trio)


By the way, you asked me to comment on your 'orange line'... and I at least tried to honour your request. Now you suddenly answer my efforts with: "I rest my case"?


PS. Patti, I send you a PM featured with a question about your 'apology' for the earlier accusations that you made.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:59 pm

Lynn wrote:
Patti wrote:I'm going to interpret this as you have been convinced to hop off the fence in favor of tented arch.

I've realised I am not on a fence, I am on a see-saw! It changes direction frequently! lol!

So... the major question here is: 'will you change your mind again?'

(Just a reminder... Wink ...your latest conclusion so far was that you think it is a 'radial loop', and I assume that you will always correct ME... if necessary)

lol!

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Post  Patti on Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:01 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
While you boast and carry on about your delusion, I mean conclusion....

May I ask why you have chosen to ignore my post where I asked you to look at the orange lines?

Why do you choose to illustrate your delta without acknowledging the horizontal dark spot between where I put the purple spot and on the rod with the core on top?

Inconvenient truth Martijn?

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 14 Rebutt19


Sorry Patti, for me there is no 'inconvenient truth' at all. Let me explain that issue once more with more details than I presented so far about that issue:


Earlier I have described that ALL THREE PRINTS indicate that the 'appearant upthrust' appears to the result of a CREASE.

You can see that CREASE e.g. illustrated as one of the brown lines in the 3rd print of the large picture that you quoted from my post.


My main point regarding your 'splitting orange line' is... that such a line does not reflect all elements that we see in that picturel... because you are IGNORING the fact that ALL THREE PRINTS clearly indicates that at that point we see also a ridge line going upwards!

More specified... it is exactly the point which I described as: 'bifurcation 4'.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 14 1937-l21


So, if we would add at that point the red line in the picture below... then we CREATE an impossibility... because we know that ridge lines never cross eachother, but CREASES... CAN cross ridge lines!!!


My earlier observation regarding how some of the inkdots in the '1933 print' (and the dark 1937 print) relate to CREASES - of which traces are seen in all three prints - perfectly explains this 'appearant upthrust'. But it can simply be explained as a combination of a ridge line + a crossing CREASE.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 14 1937-c12


Patti, all the way this discussion you have assumed that the '1933 print' that the red line should have been there in all three prints. And I am very aware that this assumption of yours provides a crucial element for your 'tented arch' assessment.

However...

The problem is... that the 'red line' is not really there at all: because there is evidence in all three prints that the ink-phenomena related to that element in the '1933 print' (and the dark 1937 print) are the result of a much longer CREASE... it is not a ridge line!!


PS. I am not sure if I have described this very well earlier in this discussion... but after saying this you should at least be able to understand why I rejected your suggestions on that element 'firmly'!!!


So, regarding my position... there is no 'inconvenient truth' involved at all. Maybe it would have been helpful for you if you had studied the details of my '8-pointed-star'... more seriously. Because that element directly relates to what I just described here about the impossible 'red line'!!!!!!!!

1) I disregard this because the bottom two illustrations only show the light 1937 illustration, where the pixelation or editing has whited out the entire areas that are dark in both the dark 1937 print and in the 1933 print.

2) You have failed to illustrate the correct location for your delta.

3) You have failed to illustrate the type lines that show we are looking at a loop.

You haven't shown us a radial loop at all.


Last edited by Patti on Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:27 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : fixed typo)
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Post  Patti on Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:05 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:
Patti wrote:I'm going to interpret this as you have been convinced to hop off the fence in favor of tented arch.

I've realised I am not on a fence, I am on a see-saw! It changes direction frequently! lol!

So... the major question here is: 'will you change your mind again?'

(Just a reminder... Wink ...your latest conclusion so far was that you think it is a 'radial loop', and I assume that you will always correct ME... if necessary)

lol!

Why are you not concerned with the rules - rather than who is right and who is wrong.

Side with the rules!!

Martijn, you have already shown that when it comes to the fine details of the rules, you are either confused or choose to ignore them when they don't result in the radial loop formation.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 14 A_disn10
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