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X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

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X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:08 pm

There is nothing in the rules that tell you to follow the direction of a rod to find the shoulders.

I did consider the possibility of example 4. I also thought you would favor it as well.

But, it really isn't to your advantage either. That would move the left should a whole lot higher. Both shoulders would then be about where I put them here:

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 Rebutt21

Since this method matched all of the examples except 4, and the idea appeared to enclose the loop when possible, other attempts seemed 'unnatural'

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 Should20

The Yellow dot indicates where you have placed the Delta.

The rules state, as you frequently reminded me, that when there are mutliple bifurcations you must move the Delta to the closest bifurcation that is open to the core, and is out in front of the diverging parallel type lines.

Since you and I both observed that there is another bifurcation on the ridges from the Yellow dot to the Purple dot (location 4). This new Delta (hot pink dot) is now the official Delta.

Since this hot pink Delta has a ridge line between it and the next ridge, the ridge it touches cannot be counted in the ridge count. Rod is too low now to be included in the count, so the Core goes to the far shoulder. Core and Delta can not be included in the ridge count, so there is no count and the recurve is spoiled.

No matter how you slice and dice it, it is always a Tented Arch!


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Post  Patti on Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:29 pm

p.s. You really should watch the slideshow at the link that Lynn presented. Then watch the other slideshows on the side bar - Actual classroom demos for learning how to identify and classify fingerprints.

Good job Lynn!! Thumbs up!
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Post  Patti on Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:40 pm

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 Dsc08110

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 Dsc08111
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Post  Patti on Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:05 pm

Martijn, this is how I would mark the shoulders and other focal points on your presentation:

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 Should21

<edit>

Which means of course:

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 A_tent16

It's a Tented Arch!


Last edited by Patti on Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:29 pm

Patti wrote:Martijn, this is how I would mark the shoulders and other focal points on your presentation:

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 Should21

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 Should20

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 Should19

Sorry Patti, your 'tangent lines' do not meet the key-characteristics described in figure 2.10a presented by Loesch, because e.g. they are required to meet at a short distance...!

I will now try to explain this to you via picture 2.10a that was presented by Loesch....


This requires a consideration regarding how we should use figure 2.10a - again this picture only deals with ONESIDE of a looping ridge line:

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 Loesch10


But if we make a 'mirror-image' of the INCOMING looping ridge line, and put it against the original image... than the implications of the image become much more obvious.

Because we can now see the full looping ridge line:

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 Loesch12

This picture describes two important fundamental characteristics for the tangent lines (= purple lines):

1 - The tangent lines meet at a point not far away from the TOP of the looping ridge line [SPECIFIED: the exact distance depends on the specific characteristics of the 'curve' in the looping ridge line, but one can expect to find the meeting point of the tangents at a distance slightly closer than the length of the shoulder line (= light green line)];

2 - The tangent lines do not cross the looping ridge line (= red line).


NOTICE: None of your attempts so far meet the first characteristic, and in you attempt to draw tangent lines in my picture... we can see that your attempt violates characteristic 2 as well.


Patti, I told you... when I presented my new picture I mentioned that it took me quite some time to find the tangents + the resulting shoulder line. Because the picture presented by Loesch relates to a 'perfect parabola'... which you associated correctly with the shape of a banana!

But in the Disney print we are confronted with a much complex situation at both sides of the TOP of the recuve...!


You assumed that it became easy for you to the find the shoulder lines, but I immediately recognized that in your (edit:) 3 attempts so far to find the tangents lines... all 3 attempts do not the MAJOR CHARACTERISTIC for tangent lines in a fingerprint: the tangent lines typically meet at a short distance.

It might take you some time to understand the details which I described, and I think the following introduction to a parabola tangent should be helpful - just in case my words + pictures are not enough for you:
http://www.tutorvista.com/math/parabola-tangent

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 Para


Now, back to my tangent lines + my shoulder line:

If we take another look at my pictures (I present one again below)... then we can see that my tangent lines do meet both tangent-characteristics that I just described!

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 1937-l27

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Post  Patti on Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:36 pm

Yes, Martijn, I have considered this angle you are showing. You quickly removed it last time I pointed it out.

You see it proves an earlier point I made about angles and abutting ridges:

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 A_disn14

nice try, though. rolling on the floor
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:09 pm

Patti wrote:There is nothing in the rules that tell you to follow the direction of a rod to find the shoulders.

..
True!

Yes, you have made here a point regarding that there is no 'formal' rule ... but actually, when describing my related point I did not refer to any 'rule' at all: that was only common sense (because it is a helpful consideration).

Let me explain this as well with a few details:

Yes, you're right: there is no 'formal' rule.

But it is quite sensible to notice here that in the Disney print the CENTRAL RIDGE LINE does show a likewise path exactly BETWEEN both sides of the looping ridge line.

So therefore the inner ridge line is helpful to identify the TOP of the looping ridge... which is of course defined as the point where the 'recurve' makes the sharpest curve.


Beyond the point that the 'tangents' are required to meet (which I described in my former post)...

Patti, when I saw your picture I immediately noticed that in your attempt to identify the 'tangents'... you simply ignored the FACT that the part of the looping ridge that is attached to your lower tangent: is actually a RAISOR STRAIGHT LINE (see the red arrow below that I have added to your picture).

So, in your attempt... you completely also overlooked that fact that the tangent is required to be positioned at a point where a clear 'recurve' follows:

Patti....the RED ARROW that I added perfectly follows the ridge line ... and therefore I conclude that your attempt failed completely regarding various point... because your GREEN shoulder line does not even meet the only definition that the F.B.I. presented in their book at page 14:

"The shoulders of a loop are the points at which the recurving ridge definitely turns inward or curves."

Any RAIZOR STRAIGHT line can not be part of the shoulder... simply because it is a straight line!

Patti, I don't question that you know the rules, but I do observe that you keep producing attempt which indicates that you don't apply the rules... even when you assumed that the situation became 'easly' for you... I observe that actually failel to apply the one and only relevant rule - which I have just quoted. NOTICE: I am refering here to the position of the (edit:) GREEN shoulder line in the picture below!



Patti's (edit:) GREEN shoulder line (I have only added the red arrow)

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 Patti-13


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:36 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:25 pm

Patti wrote:Yes, Martijn, I have considered this angle you are showing. You quickly removed it last time I pointed it out.

You see it proves an earlier point I made about angles and abutting ridges:

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 A_disn14

nice try, though. rolling on the floor

Patti, it appears that you have attributed value to the 'angle' between two of the bananas in my picture... but I NEVER attributed any value to the 'shape' of these bananas, nor the angle between how they are positioned. They only served once to point out for YOU the 'looping ridge' + the large triradius... because you told me that you could not 'see' them!


Obviously, ridge lines NEVER manifest in the shape of bananas. So, I had only used the bananas once... as a funny illustration only.

This illustrates that during this discussion you worked too much with your 'eyes'... without consulting your 'brains'!

lol!

PS. Thanks for make this comment, because it is only now that I understand why you presented those pictures with the yellow squares. You related them mistakenly to my bananas!

My apologies that I never asked you about your 'yellow squares'... but I have never 'quickly' removed anything in the way you suggested! rolling on the floor

flower

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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:15 am

Hi Martijn,

If you wouldn't mind, could you explain why you feel it is now a requirement to use Penrose's formulas?

The illustration for how the FBI locates shoulders was in my post this morning. Two basically parallel lines.

It looks to me that the more rounded the recurve the more parallel the lines that illustrate the locations of the shoulders. The more narrow the recurve, the more angular.

I only extended my purple lines to show how they perfectly lined up and enclosed the entire pattern.

You are calling the yellow line the shoulder line. In my text I described the yellow line as the line from the delta to the core.

The shoulder line is green. I placed it where the purple line first touched the red line you had drawn. Depending on the perfection of your red lines, then it is the location of the shoulders.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 Should23

Patti....the RED ARROW that I added perfectly follows the ridge line ... and therefore I conclude that your attempt failed completely regarding various point... because your YELLOW shoulder line does not even meet the only definition that the F.B.I. presented in their book at page 14:

This illustrates that during this discussion you worked too much with your 'eyes'... without consulting your 'brains'!




Patti's yellow shoulder line (I have only added the red arrow)

Martijn, I've looked really closely.... earlier today and couldn't *see* the red arrow. Maybe it's a *brain* issue, I thought. I'm checking back now and *see* or *think* that I still can't *see* the red arrow in my illustration where you said I should *see* one. Therefore, am I right in saying that I'm *seeing* there's still a *brain* issue...? Or is it that it's really not there at all???? Banana waving
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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:37 am

From:

"Quantitative-Qualitative Friction Ridge Analysis" David R. Ashbaugh

"The general consensus is that the varying topology of the volar surface creates surface stresses caused by the presence of the volar pads in their typical arrangement. Further stresses are created by friction ridge development and the growth of the part. These factors together influence the flow of overall friction ridge configuration. In normal and healthy fetuses, volar pad appear at specific locations and at approximately the same time during fetal development. As a result, all humans tend to have the same general friction ridge and flexion crease configuration."

Using Loesch's and Penrose's calculations and theories only work to get an idea of how the ridges form in cuving patterns. How a perfect circle and perfect curve is formed.

Yet Ashbaugh, along with others we've studied, state that not only does development proceed according to the genetic code, it is also influenced by environment. At so many weeks, the ridges are finished forming and have formed on the available surface under the available conditions.

We can see that Disney's fingerprint is not a perfect looping formation and obviously has been affected by environmental influences.

These can not be accounted for via mathematics. You must work with what is in front of you.

Which when you did, your calculations resulted in a very tight angle.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:41 am

Patti wrote:
Martijn wrote:...

Patti's yellow shoulder line (I have only added the red arrow)
Martijn, I've looked really closely.... earlier today and couldn't *see* the red arrow. Maybe it's a *brain* issue, I thought. I'm checking back now and *see* or *think* that I still can't *see* the red arrow in my illustration where you said I should *see* one. Therefore, am I right in saying that I'm *seeing* there's still a *brain* issue...? Or is it that it's really not there at all???? Banana waving

Patti, my apologies for both mistakes!

I had included the url of your picture... while I wanted to presented another picture (featured with my red arrow); and yes, of course you're also right about that I mistakenly mentioned the yellow line - which I should have mentioned the green line.

But I hope you noticed that my feedback basically related to your PINK TANGENTS...!

(I have edited that post regarding these points, so I have corrected both errors in that post)

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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:02 am

Ok.
I've responded to the purple lines in last post.

"American Idol" is on - back later.... sunny
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:31 am

Patti wrote:Hi Martijn,

If you wouldn't mind, could you explain why you feel it is now a requirement to use Penrose's formulas?

The illustration for how the FBI locates shoulders was in my post this morning. Two basically parallel lines.

It looks to me that the more rounded the recurve the more parallel the lines that illustrate the locations of the shoulders. The more narrow the recurve, the more angular.

I only extended my purple lines to show how they perfectly lined up and enclosed the entire pattern.

...
Patti, did you spot any 'tangent line' in the F.B.I. book? (Sorry, I can't find one).

So... if you want to continue using the 'tangent lines' to find the shoulder line... then you will have to consider the underlying rules - no doubt that the F.B.I. used the same method (I am not aware that there is any another educated approach available).


My point is... that it doesn't make sense to strive for 'tangent lines', because a 'perfect fingerprint' includes PARABOLA-like characteristics!

You started considering figure 2.10b... but that picture only relates to a 'triradius' (see the title of that picture). So it appears that this mis-reading was your first mistake regarding the issue of the tangent lines.


There is no way out... please consider the issues which I described in the picture below regarding especially the 'tangent lines' - based on Loesch & Penrose's work). It doesn't make sense to 'wave' away the details of their work by making associations regarding volar pads & ridge formation. Because you already started implementing their work in your method of fingerprint assment, with the use of the 'tangent lines'.

(Otherwise I am sure that you and I will also not be able to agree about the exact position of the shoulder line, and as a result the related implications regarding the assessment of the Disney print)

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 Loesch12

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Post  Lynn on Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:45 am

Sorry, I missed about last 9 hours of this discussion and only quickly read previous 17 hours or so, now I am completely LOST in the maze of skin ridges (further complicated by tangent lines, maths etc). Not sure I can contribute any more to this discussion, it's gone beyond my capabilities. And I don't want to be dreaming about skin ridges any more!

In the end, I think it may come down to different "ways of looking". No matter if we follow all the rules, there still seems to be some allowance for how we perceive them. I'm not sure we are ever going to agree!
I am tired of it, or maybe I am just tired..... Sleep

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:33 am

Lynn wrote:... I think it may come down to different "ways of looking". No matter if we follow all the rules, there still seems to be some allowance for how we perceive them. I'm not sure we are ever going to agree!
I am tired of it, or maybe I am just tired..... Sleep

Come on Lynn... we dived into "the science of fingerprints", which is a field where there is hardly any space for disagreement. Afterall, otherwise it would never ever had made any sense why the F.B.I. create a database of 450 million fingerprints (featured with advanced assessment techniques).

Except of course... when the quality of a print is arbitrary - but we agreed that this is not the major issue here, because of the fine quality of the light 1937 print!

I think you and I have the 'finish line' within reach... but still with one major obstacle ahead: the position of the 'shoulder line'.

Your words indicate that you are tired... (but that might just be only normal after the stress of being confronted with a new group of chirology-pupils!).


flower

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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:58 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:Hi Martijn,

If you wouldn't mind, could you explain why you feel it is now a requirement to use Penrose's formulas?

The illustration for how the FBI locates shoulders was in my post this morning. Two basically parallel lines.

It looks to me that the more rounded the recurve the more parallel the lines that illustrate the locations of the shoulders. The more narrow the recurve, the more angular.

I only extended my purple lines to show how they perfectly lined up and enclosed the entire pattern.

...
Patti, did you spot any 'tangent line' in the F.B.I. book? (Sorry, I can't find one).

So... if you want to continue using the 'tangent lines' to find the shoulder line... then you will have to consider the underlying rules - no doubt that the F.B.I. used the same method (I am not aware that there is any another educated approach available).


My point is... that it doesn't make sense to strive for 'tangent lines', because a 'perfect fingerprint' includes PARABOLA-like characteristics!

You started considering figure 2.10b... but that picture only relates to a 'triradius' (see the title of that picture). So it appears that this mis-reading was your first mistake regarding the issue of the tangent lines.


There is no way out... please consider the issues which I described in the picture below regarding especially the 'tangent lines' - based on Loesch & Penrose's work). It doesn't make sense to 'wave' away the details of their work by making associations regarding volar pads & ridge formation. Because you already started implementing their work in your method of fingerprint assment, with the use of the 'tangent lines'.

(Otherwise I am sure that you and I will also not be able to agree about the exact position of the shoulder line, and as a result the related implications regarding the assessment of the Disney print)

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 Loesch12

When I simplify your approach and line up a square, an oval, and a circle and lean lines against them at the widest points that allow the lines to cross, it's obvious that the more narrow the "recurve" the closer the place where the two lines cross.

That is obvious if you use precision math or if you just sketch it out.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 Loesch10

I also applied it to both the left and right index fingers. Matching up the upthrust at the angle in the right index to the same point on the left index finger.

Remarkably similar.
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 Angle_10

We are obviously looking at very narrow angles in both index fingers.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 Angle_11

As you've already earlier observed the interesting angle at the ridge immediately above the recurve.

There is an illustration for calulating angles in the book. But, it's in a place you have been avoiding, I think. Spikes.

<EDIT>

Using the protractor that Martijn uploaded (thank you!!) it appears that the angle of the abutting ridges at the center of the pattern are at an angle that is obviously less than 90 degrees.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 Angles10


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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:04 am

Lynn wrote:Sorry, I missed about last 9 hours of this discussion and only quickly read previous 17 hours or so, now I am completely LOST in the maze of skin ridges (further complicated by tangent lines, maths etc). Not sure I can contribute any more to this discussion, it's gone beyond my capabilities. And I don't want to be dreaming about skin ridges any more!

In the end, I think it may come down to different "ways of looking". No matter if we follow all the rules, there still seems to be some allowance for how we perceive them. I'm not sure we are ever going to agree!
I am tired of it, or maybe I am just tired..... Sleep

I agree. There isn't much more to be said. As you said it's down to perception and interpretation of pixelation and a little too much ink. Besides, the FBI already classified a clear version of the prints a tented arch and I'm in complete agreement.

Enough already.

Tonight will be my last posts on the subject and I will leave my conclusion as it stands.

Sleep study Sleep rendeer Sleep
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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:59 am

http://www.dermatoglyphics.com/sof/


Angles are never formed by a single ridge but by the abutting of one ridge against another.

The tented arch
In the tented arch, most of the ridges enter upon one side of the impression and flow or tend to flow out upon the other side, as in the plain arch type; however, the ridge or ridges at the center do not. There are three types of tented arches:

The type in which ridges at the center form a definite angle; i.e., 90° or less.

The type in which one or more ridges at the center form an upthrust. An upthrust is an ending ridge of any length rising at a sufficient degree from the horizontal plane; i.e., 45° or more.

● The type approaching the loop type, possessing two of the basic or essential characteristics of the loop, but lacking the third.

Figures 122 to 133 are examples of the tented arch.

Figure 144 is a tented arch combining two of the types. There is an angle formed by ridge a abutting upon ridge b. There are also the elements of the type approaching a loop, as it has a delta and ridge count but lacks a recurve.

Figures 145 to 148 are tented arches because of the angles formed by the abutting ridges at the center of the patterns.

The core, as the name implies, is the approximate center of the finger impression.

When we look at Walt Disney's left index fingerprint, we can easily see the angular effect along what could be the lower type line or the horizontal plane. If this were a tented arch, this location would be the 'center' or 'core'.

If we attempt to see a looping pattern, then there is an attempt to move the core to the center of the recurving ridge or it's core. Here we find another tight angle.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 Fig13413

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 Angles11

This illustrates the pattern is angular.

At several key locations along what could be the delta, and different possible places for the shoulders, are upthrusts or spikes. All are located on the outside of the recurve, depending on where you place the shoulders.

Crossing ridges do occur at tight angles of looping ridges. These crossing ridges are considered as abutting ridges. Two ridges meeting. They are not considered as a continuous flowing ridge.




Perhaps there is one possible way to place all the essential components of a loop in an order that allows this finger to be classified a radial loop. There are a number of ways to see it fits the description of a tented arch. Working with pixelated, zoomed photocopies of prints for the 1937 set and a heavily inked print, but high quality for the 1933 print, made it difficult to find agreement.

"The Science of Fingerprints" gave us many rules, relating to angles, upthrusts, cores, shoulders, type lines, and ridge counts and at each place, Disney's left fingerprint could only qualify if it were in a limited area. Each attempt to move the key elements to slightly different locations to find the appropriate ridge counts brought a new or different rule into play. Blocking each attempt and spoiling the loop.

Therefore, as the name of this thread implies, Disney has a rare fingerprint. Especially, if it takes micro measurements, mathematical calculations, and some imagination to make it into what it may only appear to be, a radial loop.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 A_walt10




Yet it is, as I see it, after much study, still a Tented Arch.




X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 A_tent17

* Tented Arch *




wave


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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:12 pm

Patti wrote:
...

When I simplify your approach and line up a square, an oval, and a circle and lean lines against them at the widest points that allow the lines to cross, it's obvious that the more narrow the "recurve" the closer the place where the two lines cross.

That is obvious if you use precision math or if you just sketch it out.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 Loesch10
.

thinking Sorry Patti, your SQUARE + your CIRCLE drawings in this picture made me speachless... (for just a moment Very Happy ).

Because they do not relate to the situation of a fingerprint at all.
Only your oval does!

Actually, you made a few serious mistake with your square + circle tangents; let me explain....


First of all, you tried to describe the 'tangents' of a square, but then you should have drawn them inside the SIDES of the square!

So if you had drawn them properly you would have noticed that it doesn't make sense to even try to draw 'tangents' in a square... simply because a square does not have any CURVATION at all!

Squares do not have any 'tangent' - simply because a square does not show any curvation!

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 Square


Second, you also tried to draw a 'tangent lines' for a circle... must that is not very 'smart' either because the CURVATION in a circle does not vary at all!!!

Which implicates that one can always draw 'tangent lines' at any location of a circle!! The picture below is an illustration which shows 3 different 'tangent lines' for a pair of circles (the 'tangent lines' vary with the distance between the circles).

A circle has an infinite number of tangents!
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 Tangent-Lines-To-Two-Circles


scratch ...These fundamental mistakes from your side, remind me again of the example where you described that you assumed that an angle of 45 degrees could be described as a 'right angle'.

I conclude from these new mistakes, that you probably hardly have any educated knowledge about how to deal with issues that relate to 'angles'.

And I am wondering... did you ever learn at high-school how to measure angles - with for example a geo triangle? (If not, your mistakes would make sense; else you have probably forgotten about how to apply the mathmatic angle rules properly).

Wikipedia explains the meaning a 'tangent':
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangent


Maybe the following picture will become helpful for you in the future as well:


X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 1

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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:27 pm

Thanks Martijn.
I was in advanced algebra in high school, but what I remember about geometry was the elderly and slow to answer teacher who was nick named Halitosis Harry, may he RIP.

Thank you for the protractor, I put it to good use. Thumbs up!

We've done an excellent job!

Martijn, I've you to thank for being my catalyst. It was the discussions with you and Christopher nearly ten years ago that pushed me into studying microbiology. (but I don't feel spurred on at the moment to take a calculus course Wink )

sunny

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 21cf2010

(that's Lynn on the left) Wink


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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:16 pm

Patti wrote:Thanks Martijn.
I was in advanced algebra in high school, but what I remember about geometry was the elderly and slow to answer teacher who was nick named Halitosis Harry, may he RIP.

Thank you for the protractor, I put it to good use. Thumbs up!

We've done an excellent job!

Martijn, I've you to thank for being my catalyst. It was the discussions with you and Christopher nearly ten years ago that pushed me into studying macrobiology. (but I don't feel spurred on at the moment to take a calculus course Wink )

sunny

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 21cf2010

(that's Lynn on the left) Wink

lol! ... Funny how you used the 'protractor' picture to (edit:) pimp-up decorate your former posts that include pictures which do not follow the angles as seen in the 'protractor'.

Anyway, I appreciate the positive spirit that you shared via the birds!


PS. By the way, I know hardly anything about macrobiotics - so it must have been Christopher who talked you into that direction. I have never promoted macrobiotics, since I prefer to use a more simple diet: I don't reject any (healthy) foods that are known to include nutrition.


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:31 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : See edit)

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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:24 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
lol! ... Funny how you used the 'protractor' picture to pimp-up your former posts that include pictures which do not follow the angles as seen in the 'protractor'.

Anyway, I appreciate the positive spirit that you shared via the birds!


PS. By the way, I know hardly anything about macrobiotics - so it must have been Christopher who talked you into that direction. I have never promoted macrobiotics, since I prefer to use a more simple diet: I don't reject any (healthy) foods that are known to include nutrition.

rolling on the floor

Well now that makes sense, because right after I was sitting down for lunch and thought to myself, did I say macro or micro?

rolling on the floor I was just hungry and thinking of food.

Food for thought. Banana waving

So, thank you, I made the correction.

I'd be pleased to see how you would place the protractor over the angles at both centers of Disney's index fingerprints.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:39 pm

Patti wrote:
rolling on the floor

Well now that makes sense, because right after I was sitting down for lunch and thought to myself, did I say macro or micro?

rolling on the floor I was just hungry and thinking of food.

Food for thought. Banana waving

So, thank you, I made the correction.

I'd be pleased to see how you would place the protractor over the angles at both centers of Disney's index fingerprints.

Patti, sorry I don't understand why you ask me to use the protractor to put on the center (I see no useful purpose: there is only a straight line between the two points that you mentioned).

But now I do understand your forment comment (I guess you meant the prenatal 'microbiology' of the hand, related to the skin etc.).

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:57 pm

Patti wrote:
...

There is an illustration for calulating angles in the book. But, it's in a place you have been avoiding, I think. Spikes.

...

I think that you have page 29 in your mind.
Despite that on that page some of those lines may look like 'tangents'... but the angle of those lines is actually directly related to the direction of the central ridge line; the other lines are positioned at 90 degrees to the central ridge line, but not at the surrounding looping ridge (though I don't dispute that they may appear as a 'tangent').

If you had another page in mind, I wonder why you choose not to mention it.


thinking You assumed that I 'avoid', but I don't think that gave reasons to make that assumption .... anyway, for some reason you avoided yourself to simply share the page.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:11 pm

Patti wrote:
Perhaps there is one possible way to place all the essential components of a loop in an order that allows this finger to be classified a radial loop. There are a number of ways to see it fits the description of a tented arch. Working with pixelated, zoomed photocopies of prints for the 1937 set and a heavily inked print, but high quality for the 1933 print, made it difficult to find agreement.

"The Science of Fingerprints" gave us many rules, relating to angles, upthrusts, cores, shoulders, type lines, and ridge counts and at each place, Disney's left fingerprint could only qualify if it were in a limited area. Each attempt to move the key elements to slightly different locations to find the appropriate ridge counts brought a new or different rule into play. Blocking each attempt and spoiling the loop.

Therefore, as the name of this thread implies, Disney has a rare fingerprint. Especially, if it takes micro measurements, mathematical calculations, and some imagination to make it into what it may only appear to be, a radial loop.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 A_walt10




Yet it is, as I see it, after much study, still a Tented Arch.




X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 A_tent17

* Tented Arch *




wave

Patti, you have introduced the brilliant idea regarding using 'matching coordinates'; unfortunately you were not able to apply that idea yourself very well..Because if I take a look at the details in the 4 pictures above... I think your final result does not match with the preceeding pictures that you posted; all 4 pictures present 'coloured lines' in different positions and pointing in different directions.

Regarding your suggestions that I kept 'moving' & 'adapting' while this discussion progressed - I admit that I have adapted my shoulder line twice. But it was only when I started studying the details of the shoulder line - by using 1800% ZOOMED pictures... only then I conclude that the core in this print should be positioned at the right shoulder in this print. But for example...the DELTA in my final attempt was already in that positioned when I posted the following picture... at page 1 of this discussion (it was actually the 3th post that I made).

(Picture below is taken from my 3th post in page 1 of this discussion)

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 Walt-d10

But I already mentioned the possibility of a 'ridge count = 2' at page 16; after you adressed the issue of the 'shoulder line' (actually, it was the comment in which I made probably the biggest 'blunder' in this discussion: my mis-interpretation of the words 'core of the loop type' at page 14 in the book, you know: the one with the... 43 emotions!).

This illustrates that my position in this discussion has hardly moved, because from the beginning I had positioned the DELTA + the 'looping ridge line' in all three prints at the same location - I never made any changes regarding those aspects at all.

It was only after we had considered other details of this print, that I realised that I had made a significant mistake... regarding the position of the 'core' only: which should formally - based on the details of the Penrose approach - be positioned at the right shoulder of the 'looping ridge line'.

So, I dare to claim that even my pictures illustrate that my position hardly moved during this discussion!



Patti, after describing (with some historic facts) how my opinions about all three prints only have moved slightly, and basically only became more refined during this discussion.

I hope - in order to finish this discussion with a proper consciousness - that you are now able to withdraw personal 'personal accusations' (you questioned my motives - and I have not taken those words lightly) that you posted earlier in this discussion.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 1 ?

(Because I did not take your accusations lightly, it would for sure be helpful if you can show a 'sporting gesture' by withdrawing those words - a simple confirmation is enough for me, no need to edit your messages if you can confim.)



NOTICE: I presented the details of my final assessment (see the picture) at page 31 of this discussion.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 1937-r10


scratch

Increadible...I think our pictures indicate that you and I only found agreement about... the UPPER 'type line' + the lines above that we never really discussed!! (the red lines in what you presented as your final picture)

lol!
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 20 A_tent17

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