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X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

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Post  Lynn on Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:35 pm

3) Hot pink Delta is the closest bifurcation open to the core (top of rod)

Is hot pink delta the one Martijn previously labelled as "bifurcation 4" (from memory, I haven't checked back)? But that bifurcation doesn't open to the core, it opens downwards.

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Post  Patti on Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:50 pm

Lynn wrote:
3) Hot pink Delta is the closest bifurcation open to the core (top of rod)

Is hot pink delta the one Martijn previously labelled as "bifurcation 4" (from memory, I haven't checked back)? But that bifurcation doesn't open to the core, it opens downwards.

Martijn had noted that in the 1937 prints (not 1933) there appears to be a bifurcation between the yellow delta dot (Martijn's) and the purple delta dot (me).

That would move the delta to the bifurcation that is closest to and open to the core.



<edit>A triradius opens in three directions. A bifurcation or trifurcation tends to be branching in same general direction.

The rule about opening to the core probably lines up with the rule about a ridge not being in line with the core. Either it's open to the core, or it's pointing at the core. When it's pointing at the core you use the same rule as a rod, you move to the end of the ridge. If it's open at the core, you use the center of the triradius.

When you look closely at trying to see the angles of triradii (not deltas) it really does look like the yellow dot sits at a conjunction of a trifurcation. Because three limbs are close together.


Last edited by Patti on Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:04 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : clarity)
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Post  Lynn on Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:28 pm

sorry Patti, I now found the post where you earlier presented a pic of the hot pink dot.
But I can't find where Martijn said anything about another bifurcation on the ridges from the Yellow dot to the Purple dot.
Actually I confess I am completely lost in your last post Patti! Which bifurcation are you saying points at the core? what triradius? what trifurcation?
(sorry I think I took things off track when I mentioned possibility of a trifurcation earlier in the discussion, the 3 branches I was looking at do not start from the same point).

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Post  Patti on Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:53 pm

I can't find the post now, but it was either during or before this series, where he changed the angle of the ridge between the yellow dot and the purple dot and said there was a bifurcation there. I drew it in a later image as a small purple arrow

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 Should25

Notice the bend now drawn into this image above the yellow dot?
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Post  Lynn on Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:39 pm

Patti wrote:I can't find the post now, but it was either during or before this series, where he changed the angle of the ridge between the yellow dot and the purple dot and said there was a bifurcation there. I drew it in a later image as a small purple arrow
.......
Notice the bend now drawn into this image above the yellow dot?

I can't find mention of another bifurcation. Martijn didn't 'change the angle' of the ridge, he zoomed in and discovered that it slightly curves. If that is another bifurcation at the point of the hot pink dot, (and I don't think it is a bifurcation), it doesn't open to the core, so the hot pink dot can't be the delta.

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Post  Patti on Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:51 am

Lynn,
I just looked though a few pages back, again, and don't see it, perhaps I misunderstood the location, as I did find a place where he was talking about a spike, perhaps it was where he was pointing the red arrow.

Not important, in the same area on the 1933 print, it's obvious that we are looking at rows of parallel lines without the honeycombed look of the dark 1937 print.

I wonder if it struck anyone else that just maybe the short spike in the 1933 print actually lines up to and touches the horizontal ridge, and the other ridge simply ends at the white space and does not recurve.

Since there are spikes, and the angle of the recurve area is at less than 90 degrees, these being enough to spoil the loop and make it a tented arch, I don't see a need to discuss the locations of the delta, core and shoulders. The answers and methods are in the book and on the tutorials on the website and it's links you shared.

Precision measurements are needed now to prove the exact locations and the accurate lining up of *focal points* and I don't have the time to bother with it now. Besides we'd never agree on heavily inked vs pixelated, over zoomed images. And even the interpretation of the rules and illustrations. You two go ahead if you like and I'll be interested to see the results.

You mentioned elsewhere that Richard classifies the pattern a tented arch if it has a central triradius, so does the medical/scientific community. I think it was in Cummins & Midlo I read it. I quoted it here somewhere. It's the forensic world that gets more detailed. The medical world, for simplication and convenience also uses the idea of a triradius, which isn't just a 3 branch bifurcation, to enclose the pattern. The forensic method uses type lines outside the delta.


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Post  Patti on Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:47 am

Lynn wrote:
3) Hot pink Delta is the closest bifurcation open to the core (top of rod)

Is hot pink delta the one Martijn previously labelled as "bifurcation 4" (from memory, I haven't checked back)? But that bifurcation doesn't open to the core, it opens downwards.

Lynn,
Are you thinking that a delta and a triradius are the same thing? A delta is a location. It can be a location on a triradius or a bifurcation, or a ridge, a dot, the side of the recurve (as long as it is centered at or in front of the parallel diverging type lines.

Both triradii and bifurcations have 3 limbs.

A triradius typically has limbs that are about 120 degrees apart. 3 limbs - 3 open and nearly equal sides. Any of the 3 sides of the triradius can be open to the core (and the other two are open to other areas) Each of the 3 limbs are pointing somewhere.

A bifurcation usually has 2 limbs very close together pointing in the same direction, i.e. as you mentioned downward. The two close together limbs are far away from the 3rd limb. More than 120 degrees. Like the triradius - there are 3 limbs pointing somewhere and 3 open spaces.

So if you are looking at a triradius or a bifurcation, to decide if you pick the middle of the configuration or the end of a limb, you look to see if a side is *open to the core* or if a limb is pointing at it.

If a limb is pointing at it, you have to move to the end of the limb, closest to the core.

If an open side of a triradius or bifurcation is open to the core, you go to the center of the triradius or bifurcation.

Bifurcations when facing up or down only affect the ridge count when the line drawn from the delta to the core are counted. If it crosses at or below the bifurcation you can count two ridges and if it crosses above the bifurcation it only counts as one.

(which adds one more requirement for proper placement of core, delta & shoulders to get an accurate and true ridge count - and still the angles and spikes spoil the loop regardless, so what's the use.)

There is an example, that has bifurcations in both directions, in the book that they suggest we study to understand what they mean.

I believe you have misunderstood, and think that only one side is open, and it's the side where the two limbs are closest together. That isn't how they describe or illustrate it. That's why I mentioned the flying bird image. If you just scroll down the page at the early part of the book on line, you'll see the V shape over and over and over! The open to the core part of the V is obvious. http://www.dermatoglyphics.com/sof/
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Post  Lynn on Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:21 am

I know what a triradius is, no problem there, we have them on the digital mounts too. Altho I think your description of them is a bit confusing. I would say 3 diverging lines rather than 3 'limbs'. The 3 lines that form a triradius don't all originate from a single point as they do in a trifurcation or bifurcation.
In the process of this discussion, I think I have learnt what a delta is.

But I understood the bifurcation differently, I don't think I have misunderstood it. I thought in bifurcation it was the narrow angle (the V shape) that had to be open to the core, and not the 2 angles that are over 90 degrees.
(edit PS) also I can't find the rules about 'if the limb of a bifurcation is POINTING at the core'.

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Post  Lynn on Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:34 pm

Patti, you illustrated it yourself quite clearly on page 25 of this discussion

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 Finger10



You also quoted this on page 25 of this discussion: Is this the example you mention in your last post? "There is an example, that has bifurcations in both directions, in the book that they suggest we study to understand what they mean."

When there is a choice between two or more possible deltas, the following rules govern:

● The delta may not be located at a bifurcation which does not open toward the core.

In figure 26, the bifurcation at E is closer to the core than the bifurcation at D. However, E is not immediately in front of the divergence of the type lines and it does not open toward the core. A—A and B—B are the only possible type lines in this sketch and it follows, therefore, that the bifurcation at D must be called the delta. The first ridge count would be ridge C.

E does not open to the core, (ie the narrow angle is open to the outer recurving ridge)

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 Fig02612

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:37 pm


X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 Dove10

Patti, thanks for your confirmation! Thumbs up!

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:49 pm

Lynn wrote:...

But I understood the bifurcation differently, I don't think I have misunderstood it. I thought in bifurcation it was the narrow angle (the V shape) that had to be open to the core, and not the 2 angles that are over 90 degrees.
(edit PS) also I can't find the rules about 'if the limb of a bifurcation is POINTING at the core'.
Hi Lynn,

Yes, I can confirm that you did not misunderstood the issue of how a bifurcation requires to 'open to the core' (as described by the first delta-rule on page 12).

What you describe is correct: the issue relates only to the most narrow angle in a bifurcation. Figure 26 indeed confirms this issue regarding point E (which is rejected as the delta because the most narrow angle opens downward - direction: south-west ... while the 'core' is obviously not found in that zone).

For the same reason can 'bifurcation 4' not be the delta in the Disney print (see the picture below - which I introduced on page 25 of this discussion.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 1937-l21


PS. I never talked about a point between 'bifurcation 1' and 'bifurcation 4'.

But I can make the following 3 observations:

1 - I understand how Patti associates what she described as the 'hot pink dot' with the visual appearance of the 'dark 1937 print' (see below)... but the problem is that this 'impression' can easily be described as just another visual-illusion due to the horizontal CREASE (+ the slight abundance of ink in the dark 1937 print).

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 Should25

2 - And... my CREASE-hypothesis is confirmed by my last illustration of the 1933 print: where we can clearly see that there are even two small inkdots - but both are too narrow to be associated with a ridge line. And only the lower of the two small inkdots could match with the location of Patti's 'hot pink dot' (because the small ink dot is positioned almost at the west side of 'bifurcation 4' - while in the 'dark 1937 print' is positioned at a clearly lower positon).

Because one can clearly see in my picture how the location of the lower small indot indeed matches with the location of the CREASE... see the longest brown line in the picture below:

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 1933-r11

3 - And finally... one can not simply ignore the fact that in the 'light 1937 print' (see the picture below) there is no trace of such a... sixth 'bifurcation' at all!

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 1937-r10


Smile ...

After considering these DETAILS... I can only conclude again:

Each of the prints sort of presents basically the same details, but in order to recognize these similarities one should not deny the consequences of the clear abundance of ink in 2 of the 3 prints + the phenomena that result from the crossing CREASES.


Lynn, if these 3 observations make sense for you... than I hope that you also recognize how the two elements that I mention in my conclusion really are required to be considered in order to understand my final assessment.

And if so, then I think you and I were only not able (yet?) to find an agreement regarding the exact position of the shoulder line. Therefore I am still interested to hear your thought, observations and/or objections regarding my assessment of that line!

wave

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Post  Patti on Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:59 am

Lynn wrote:Patti, you illustrated it yourself quite clearly on page 25 of this discussion

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 Finger10



You also quoted this on page 25 of this discussion: Is this the example you mention in your last post? "There is an example, that has bifurcations in both directions, in the book that they suggest we study to understand what they mean."

When there is a choice between two or more possible deltas, the following rules govern:

● The delta may not be located at a bifurcation which does not open toward the core.

In figure 26, the bifurcation at E is closer to the core than the bifurcation at D. However, E is not immediately in front of the divergence of the type lines and it does not open toward the core. A—A and B—B are the only possible type lines in this sketch and it follows, therefore, that the bifurcation at D must be called the delta. The first ridge count would be ridge C.

E does not open to the core, (ie the narrow angle is open to the outer recurving ridge)

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 Fig02612

Fig. 31 has forks aiming up and aiming down, but they say none of them are open to the core. So I don't think it's the forked side heading up or down the looping pattern.

"In figure 31, A—A and B—B are the type lines, with the dot as the delta. The bifurcations cannot be considered as they do not open toward the core."

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 Fig03113

At first I thought E in fig. 26, was forking off of the branch from the delta closer to the parting parallel ridges.

Another way to look at it, is that it's a fork at the end of a branch with its ends touching/abutting the ridge from the delta inside the type line. Looking at it that way, the side to the core is about 180 degrees. That's a straight line. I read somewhere else about the difference between bifurcations and triradii was the degrees over 120 and under another figure. I don't recall the degree.

<edit> (I see rising and touching the outer ridge is how you described it too)

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 Fig02615

Aren't you all tired of staring at this print. I go to look at it and this little voice inside goes "oh no, not again"

For some reason this loop is looking a lot less like a banana an a whole lot more like something else, a foot, don't you think? A bifootcation or a bifruitcation? lol!

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 10



Last edited by Patti on Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post  Patti on Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:14 am

Any pixel in the gray areas on the 1937 prints could actually be white or black. The software couldn't tell so it made it gray.

It would seem likely the software made a lightly impressed or thin ridge gray.

White areas would probably stay white.

So any gray area could represent an actual ridge that couldn't be picked up by the technology available when the photocopy of the original was made, and then a scan of the photocopy in order to upload to the computer.

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Post  Lynn on Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:20 am

A bifootcation or a bifruitcation?
haha I know exactly what you mean.
I walked past a gothic window yesterday that looked something like this...
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 Gothic10
and my brain said "Ah, bifurcation open to the core. But what are the implications of the bifurcation ridge lines crossing the recurve?" Then I thought "oh gawd, I'm going crazy, it's a WINDOW" lol!

Also my recent dream about walking in a maze. In aerial view, the high hedges became fingerprint ridges. And my dream about walking the derbs (narrow streets) in the medina of Fes in Morocco. But the intricate passages & alleyways turned out to be all twists and turns of skin ridges of a huge fingerprint. (Fes has 9,500 alleyways!). It's getting into our subconscious! I think we may go crazy eventually if we continue with this discussion! affraid


Last edited by Lynn on Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:09 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post  Lynn on Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:34 am

Patti wrote:Fig. 31 has forks aiming up and aiming down, but they say none of them are open to the core. So I don't think it's the forked side heading up or down the looping pattern.

"In figure 31, A—A and B—B are the type lines, with the dot as the delta. The bifurcations cannot be considered as they do not open toward the core."

exactly, It's not about the fork 'heading up or down the looping pattern', it's about it aiming to the core. If you follow a straight line from the centre of the forks on Fig 31, the V aims outwards, it does not aim towards the core as in your diagram

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 Finger10

where the V clearly aims to the core. If the core dot fell down, it would be caught in the base of the V. That couldn't happen in fig 31. It would disappear down the parallel lines between the delta.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 Fig03113


Last edited by Lynn on Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:38 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post  Patti on Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:36 am

Lynn wrote:
A bifootcation or a bifruitcation?
haha I know exactly what you mean.
I walked past a gothic window yesterday that looked something like this...
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 Gothic10
and my brain said "Ah, bifurcation open to the core. But what are the implications of the bifurcation ridge lines crossing the recurve?" Then I thought "oh gawd, I'm going crazy, it's a WINDOW" lol!

Also my recent dream about walking in a maze. In aerial view, the high hedges became fingerprint ridges. And my dream about walking the derbs in the medina of Fes, but the intricate passages & alleyways turned out to be all twists and turns of skin ridges of a huge fingerprint. (Fes has 9,500 alleyways!). It's getting into our subconscious! I think we may go crazy eventually if we continue with this discussion! affraid

rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor
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Post  Lynn on Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:08 am

Patti wrote:At first I thought E in fig. 26, was forking off of the branch from the delta closer to the parting parallel ridges.

Another way to look at it, is that it's a fork at the end of a branch with its ends touching/abutting the ridge from the delta inside the type line. Looking at it that way, the side to the core is about 180 degrees. That's a straight line. I read somewhere else about the difference between bifurcations and triradii was the degrees over 120 and under another figure. I don't recall the degree.

<edit> (I see rising and touching the outer ridge is how you described it too)

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 Fig02615

I'm a bit confused by your comments here Patti. E is a bifurcation that is open to (V shape open to ) erm,,,nothing much apart from an outer curving ridge. Nothing can fall into it, it's not 'open to the core'.

I read somewhere else about the difference between bifurcations and triradii was the degrees over 120 and under another figure. I don't recall the degree.

Bifurcation is a ridge line that splits into two. Usually one angle is smaller than the other 2 angles (& less than 90 degrees). It is the narrowest angle that we need to consider re "opening to the core".
Triradii are 3 diverging curved ridge lines (hence the name triradii - 3 radiuses, part of 3 circles). Patti - I am sure you know what a triradius is! Triradius is 3 curving ridge lines that kind-of form a triangle. Basics of dermatoglyphics! eg on mounts, fingerprints, axial triradius at base of palm etc. I am not sure why you now seem to be confused by triradius, because I am sure you know what it is!

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Post  Lynn on Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:30 am

Patti wrote:Any pixel in the gray areas on the 1937 prints could actually be white or black. The software couldn't tell so it made it gray.

It would seem likely the software made a lightly impressed or thin ridge gray.

White areas would probably stay white.

So any gray area could represent an actual ridge that couldn't be picked up by the technology available when the photocopy of the original was made, and then a scan of the photocopy in order to upload to the computer.


I think I can agree with this. Similarly, any black area in 1933 print could be white or grey or black, because of excess grease in the process of creating lithograph causing excess ink in the final picture. I prefer light 1937 print, seems clearest to me.

Overall, I think we can look at these 3 prints in various different ways, depending on resolution/zoom, how we decide to place the shoulders, if we agree on delta & core, how we choose to interpret the FBI book. We are looking at hugely zoomed prints here. If I was reading this face to face I would say "radial loop". But my last see-saw in this discussion landed on "tented arch". Since then I don't understand all the maths about where to place shoulders, and as I said earlier - the shoulder placing seems critical in this particular print.

This discussion has been fascinating to me. Thanks Patti & Martjn, nobody else seems to care about it. I just wish I could leave it here and get on with other things. Tho I fear I will be drawn back in! Twisted Evil

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Post  Patti on Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:33 am

Lynn wrote:
Patti wrote:Fig. 31 has forks aiming up and aiming down, but they say none of them are open to the core. So I don't think it's the forked side heading up or down the looping pattern.

"In figure 31, A—A and B—B are the type lines, with the dot as the delta. The bifurcations cannot be considered as they do not open toward the core."

exactly, It's not about the fork 'heading up or down the looping pattern', it's about it aiming to the core. If you follow a straight line from the centre of the forks on Fig 31, the V aims outwards, it does not aim towards the core as in your diagram

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 Finger10

where the V clearly aims to the core. If the core dot fell down, it would be caught in the base of the V. That couldn't happen in fig 31. It would disappear down the parallel lines between the delta.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 Fig03113

Yes, we agree.

I can't find where it says that if a branch points at the core. Fig. 55 has the branch that goes to the recurving ridge. I probably added this idea of losing a ridge count when the ridge lined up from the delta to the core. The delta doesn't move, you just lose one ridge count. This branch from the delta in 55 is a bifurcation that points to the core. So obviously the delta doesn't move there. So I agree with you on that.

This pattern has the characteristics we are discussing in Walt Disney's. Steep angle in the recurve (not this steep of course), steep angle from delta to middle of space between the shoulders, triangular triradius and short spikey rods. This one I'd call a tented arch.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 Finger11
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Post  Patti on Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:42 am

Lynn wrote:
Patti wrote:Any pixel in the gray areas on the 1937 prints could actually be white or black. The software couldn't tell so it made it gray.

It would seem likely the software made a lightly impressed or thin ridge gray.

White areas would probably stay white.

So any gray area could represent an actual ridge that couldn't be picked up by the technology available when the photocopy of the original was made, and then a scan of the photocopy in order to upload to the computer.


I think I can agree with this. Similarly, any black area in 1933 print could be white or grey or black, because of excess grease in the process of creating lithograph causing excess ink in the final picture. I prefer light 1937 print, seems clearest to me.

Overall, I think we can look at these 3 prints in various different ways, depending on resolution/zoom, how we decide to place the shoulders, if we agree on delta & core, how we choose to interpret the FBI book. We are looking at hugely zoomed prints here. If I was reading this face to face I would say "radial loop". But my last see-saw in this discussion landed on "tented arch". Since then I don't understand all the maths about where to place shoulders, and as I said earlier - the shoulder placing seems critical in this particular print.

This discussion has been fascinating to me. Thanks Patti & Martjn, nobody else seems to care about it. I just wish I could leave it here and get on with other things. Tho I fear I will be drawn back in! Twisted Evil

ooooh temptation!! Evil or Very Mad Twisted Evil Shocked

I have learned something else while we have been reading all the rules. This was from the example at the tutorial you shared, or one of the links with it.

Disney's right little finger appears to be a double loop. But it's classified as a 16 count loop. That's a big loop for a little finger! What I discovered and you may have already known this, to be counted as a whorl, you must be able to draw a line between the two deltas without crossing a recurving ridge. With his little finger you must cross the recurve from delta to delta.
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 Right_13



(now I also know that my little fingers are not whorls either)
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Post  Patti on Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:28 am

Lynn wrote:
Patti wrote:At first I thought E in fig. 26, was forking off of the branch from the delta closer to the parting parallel ridges.

Another way to look at it, is that it's a fork at the end of a branch with its ends touching/abutting the ridge from the delta inside the type line. Looking at it that way, the side to the core is about 180 degrees. That's a straight line. I read somewhere else about the difference between bifurcations and triradii was the degrees over 120 and under another figure. I don't recall the degree.

<edit> (I see rising and touching the outer ridge is how you described it too)

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 Fig02615

I'm a bit confused by your comments here Patti. E is a bifurcation that is open to (V shape open to ) erm,,,nothing much apart from an outer curving ridge. Nothing can fall into it, it's not 'open to the core'.

I read somewhere else about the difference between bifurcations and triradii was the degrees over 120 and under another figure. I don't recall the degree.

Bifurcation is a ridge line that splits into two. Usually one angle is smaller than the other 2 angles (& less than 90 degrees). It is the narrowest angle that we need to consider re "opening to the core".
Triradii are 3 diverging curved ridge lines (hence the name triradii - 3 radiuses, part of 3 circles). Patti - I am sure you know what a triradius is! Triradius is 3 curving ridge lines that kind-of form a triangle. Basics of dermatoglyphics! eg on mounts, fingerprints, axial triradius at base of palm etc. I am not sure why you now seem to be confused by triradius, because I am sure you know what it is!

Yes, I do know what a triradius looks like. There is more than one kind, I uploaded this earlier from Penrose.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 Should26

This is from "Dermatoglyphics in Medical Disorders"

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 3-12-210

<edit>
you'll also notice that the medical community automatically assumes the triradius is the focal point and not a location called the delta. That is completely different than the forensic method. I had read in one of the books that this was for convenience since the next ridge is the start of the ridge count anyway. Maybe because they couldn't agree with each other either... Wink
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:58 am

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 3-12-210

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 Should26

Patti, thanks for sharing those materials!

Because the content of both sources has significant implications for our Disney print...

While the F.B.I. book does not deal with the situation where the triradius manifests as a 'large triangle'... the word 'triangle' is not even mentioned, these 2 sources do describe what to do:

Quoted from "Dermatoglyphics in Medical Disorders" (page 34):

"Sometimes the triradial point does not lie on a ridge and is determined as the point where the three angles between the innermost ridges are each as near as possible to 120 degrees (Figure 3.5 E,F)."

This implicates that we now even have a 'scenario' available in which the issue of the SHOULDER LINE... becomes completely irrelevant!:


Because two of the three prints clearly show the 'large triangle' that I mentioned earlier in this discussion (in the 'dark 1933 print there is a clear white spots in the center of the triangle'):

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 1937-l28

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 1937-d13


And obviously, the '1933 print' shows no evidence at all which coulds suggest that there is no TRIANGLE... because it is obvious that in that print the triangle is completely filled with ink!

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 21 193310


So, this implicates that we can safely assume that there is 'triangle', and according what is described by Penrose (Schaumann & Alter refer to the work of Penrose), in the Disney print the DELTA should actually be positioned INSIDE the triangle....!!!

And whether I am right of wrong about the 'shoulder line', it is no longer an essential element to be considered in our discussion, because with the DELTA positioned in the center of the 'large triangle'...that would only result in a discussion about whether the 'ridge count = 1... or 2 (and both situations result in a 'ridge count').

Penrose's work us to position the DELTA in the center of the 'large triangle'... and therefore there 'ridge count' is for sure not spoiled by a missing 'white zone' due to the connection between 'bifurcation 1' and 'bifurcation 4'!


MY CONCLUSION:

We never discussed the option that the DELTA is not positioned in 'bifurcation 1'... simply because the center INSIDE the 'large triangle' is that we should have considered; but because it is not mentioned in the F.B.I. book, we needed Penrose's work to approach this situation much more simple than staring at 1000% ZOOMED pictures!

lol!

So, IF we can agree about that the 'looping ridge line' is not spoiled... than we SHOULD agree that it is a ... RADIAL LOOP.

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Post  Patti on Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:21 pm

If you switch to using the medical rules for identifcation rather than the FBI's, then the fact that the triradius is centrally located makes it a tented arch. This is in Penrose. See above.

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Post  Lynn on Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:01 pm

On the first page of this discussion, when I first said 'radial loop', it was based on the way I've always looked at fingerprints, ie look for the triradius. I saw the triradius as being exactly where Martijn has now placed it and instantly thought 'radial loop'.

At that stage in the discussion, I didn't know the difference between delta & triradius, I always thought the centre of the triradius was the delta on any fingerprint. Thanks to Patti questioning it & us going through the FBI book, I have now learnt that delta & triradius are not always the same thing. But after wading thru every skin ridge of the prints, and going through the rules, we have ended back where I started on the first unzoomed prints. rolling on the floor


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Post  Lynn on Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:15 pm

Patti wrote:If you switch to using the medical rules for identifcation rather than the FBI's, then the fact that the triradius is centrally located makes it a tented arch. This is in Penrose. See above.

That's how Richard Unger looks at it & that's why his classifications of tented arch differ from FBI. He looks at a centrally located triradius as a tented arch, even when there are obvious recurving ridges of a loop next to it. ie he is looking at the triradius placed centrally in the middle of the finger, not in the middle of the fingerprint pattern or curved ridge.

For it to be a tented arch, the core must be at the end of one of the radiants of the triradius, creating the 'tent pole' of the tented arch. ie centrally located within the curving ridge, so that the ridge goes over the 'tent pole'. The 'tent pole' is the line drawn between delta & core, and so there is no ridge count.
I think this applies both in the medical & in the FBI rule books.

(PS edited about 3 times, don't think I've explained this very well! I know that not all tented arched have an obvious 'tent pole'.)

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