Your opinion & share...
Latest topics
» Michael 'Air' Jordan: hands of a basketball superstar!
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Icon_minitime1Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:16 am by Whitewash112358

» hello there
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Icon_minitime1Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:59 am by shadow

» till when in laws trouble in married life
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Icon_minitime1Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:43 pm by pravin kumar

» Got a moment...please read my palm :)
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Icon_minitime1Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:04 pm by horizon

» Elemental hand shape assessment 2.0: finger length vs. palm size!
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Icon_minitime1Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:47 am by JD

» lllf star/cross in Saturn Mount
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Icon_minitime1Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:05 am by pravin kumar

» Hello from Maryland, USA.
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Icon_minitime1Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:03 am by pravin kumar

» Double loop on mount Luna
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:07 am by Magda van Dijk-Rijneke

» Different Palm lines
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:57 am by nishaghai

» The 2D:4D ratio findings contradict the accepted knowledge of chirognomy in palmistry
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:06 am by Whitewash112358

» swastik on moon mount
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Icon_minitime1Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:08 am by nishaghai

» Can anybody read this palm and provide remedies. It's female palm
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Icon_minitime1Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:20 am by nishaghai

» Can anybody please read this hand
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Icon_minitime1Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:57 pm by Chirag

» What does this form of life line mean?
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Icon_minitime1Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:17 am by cromaveg

» Hello Everyone
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Icon_minitime1Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:59 am by pravin kumar

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 


Rechercher Advanced Search

Who is online?
In total there are 30 users online :: 0 Registered, 0 Hidden and 30 Guests

None

[ View the whole list ]


Most users ever online was 293 on Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:22 am
Moderators & partners

• Discover the Modern Hand Reading Forum partners:

Would you like to see your website listed?

Modern Hand Reading Forum Partners

Pointing finger: check this out!

Statistics
We have 5735 registered users
The newest registered user is Starshine

Our users have posted a total of 46423 messages in 4751 subjects
Top posting users this week
Starshine
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Voting17X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Voting19X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Voting18 
Whitewash112358
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Voting17X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Voting19X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Voting18 
TLC
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Voting17X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Voting19X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Voting18 
Irenech
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Voting17X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Voting19X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Voting18 
pravin kumar
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Voting17X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Voting19X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Voting18 

Recommendations

• The FREE hand reading services at the Modern Hand Reading Forum are being continued in 2019 with the assistance of Google adsense!


Pointing finger: check this out!



Google+
MAJOR HAND READING SYNONYMS
Palmistry, Palm Reading, Hand Analysis, Chirology & Chiromancy.

Learn how to read hands according the Modern Hand Reading paradigm & you can use this forum as your palm reading guide!

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Page 22 of 26 Previous  1 ... 12 ... 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26  Next

Go down

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Lynn on Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:39 pm

Martijn said -
IF we can agree about that the 'looping ridge line' is not spoiled... than we SHOULD agree that it is a ... RADIAL LOOP.

whilst there are abutting ridges, at bifurcations 5 and 4, they don't spoil the recurve. If you look at fig 188 in FBI book, that recurve is spoilt because the abutting ridge at right angles is between the shoulders and takes the tip of the recurve off at a tangent, changing it to a tented arch. Fig 311 also. There's nothing like that on the Disney print.
(is there? did I miss something?)

___________________________________________
Lynn
www.handanalysis.co.uk
Lynn
Lynn

Posts : 2443
Join date : 2010-07-24
Location : Devon, England

http://www.handanalysis.co.uk

Back to top Go down

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Lynn on Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:50 pm

I think I'm about to jump off the see-saw....
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 See_sa10

___________________________________________
Lynn
www.handanalysis.co.uk
Lynn
Lynn

Posts : 2443
Join date : 2010-07-24
Location : Devon, England

http://www.handanalysis.co.uk

Back to top Go down

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:27 pm

Patti wrote:If you switch to using the medical rules for identifcation rather than the FBI's, then the fact that the triradius is centrally located makes it a tented arch. This is in Penrose. See above.


Patti, I think I've spotted an interesting point!

The F.B.I. uses slightly different rules than what Penrose described, because while the F.B.I. always position the (edit) DELTA triradius ON a ridge line, Penrose obviously described that sometimes the triradial point can be OUTSIDE a ridge line.

But I think it is unlikely that this tiny little difference would lead to a completely different classification of the Disney print... because that would simply not make sense!


So, if we take a closer look at the line that you underlined in Penrose's work:

"If the core of a loop is directed towards the radial side of the hand it is termed a radial loop; if directed towards the ulnar side it is called an ulnar loop. If the loop has neither of these directions but the core lies on one of the radiants of the corresponding triradius, then it is said to be tented, and usually been designated a tented arch."

Then I can not agree with how you read the underlined line in this quote, for two reasons...

First of all: Patti, why do you assume that the Disney print is not directed towards the radial side? Because if we follow the ridge line from the central core, then we can see that it ends at the radial side. And if we follow the ridge line from the 'looping ridge line'... we get there as well!

Secondly, even when we would agree that the 'core' in the Disney print is on the right shoulder of the 'looping ridge line'... then it still can not be described as being positioned on the 'radiant of the corresponding triradius' (see the requirement described by Penrose) because that radius is first passing 2 bifurcations before it arrives at the 'core', so even then... the 'core' does not lie on the radiant of the triradius!

(Just like Lynn just described: a looping ridge does not get spoiled by a bifurcation!)


Oh-oh... Oh...nooo! ... but now, I must also admit that I might have made another slight mistake:


Because only now I can even raise the option that we actually have a RADIAL LOOP with 'ridge count = 3' .... see the picture below!

lol!


X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 1937-l29


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5254
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:56 pm

Lynn wrote:I think I'm about to jump off the see-saw....
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 See_sa10

lol! ... Only a day ago I thought you would never make it!!


Lynn, I could imagine that my last comment might give you the courage to make that final jump... despite that Penrose & the F.B.I. use a slight different method, I think it is now very obviously that they both would follow your jump!


I am also glad to see that we finally found that we don't have to consider any 'angle-related stuff' at all to find that - after accepting of course that the abundance of ink in the 1933 prints should not be underestimated - there can only only be one answer that fits with what is seen in all three prints + also respects all the rules described by Penrose & the F.B.I.

Now it's up to you to decide under which 'angle' you are going to jump from the see-saw... but please be aware that the girl in the picture is only able to give you one hand... so she might be too busy with to taking care of 'her own seat'... Wink


X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 00790-funny-cartoons-math-angles


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5254
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Lynn on Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:59 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:[color=darkred]Patti, I think I've spotted an interesting point!

The F.B.I. uses slightly different rules than what Penrose described, because while the F.B.I. always position a triradius ON a ridge line, Penrose obviously described that sometimes the triradial point can be OUTSIDE a ridge line.

"while the F.B.I. always position a triradius ON a ridge line, " ???
(do you mean delta - they don't talk about triradii do they?)

There are lots of examples in FBI book where the delta is not on a ridge line
eg figures 31, 41, 49 they place a dot for the delta in the centre of the triradius.

___________________________________________
Lynn
www.handanalysis.co.uk
Lynn
Lynn

Posts : 2443
Join date : 2010-07-24
Location : Devon, England

http://www.handanalysis.co.uk

Back to top Go down

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:40 pm


Lynn, regarding your first point: thanks for the correction - I have edited my former post on that point.


Regarding your second point...

But I don't think that I can accept your interpretation of the dots - for two arguments:

Firstly, I think they have not described explicitly that these dots can be considered as imaginary points.

And secondly, on page 10 the dot in figure 20 is for sure not described as an imaginary point, because they describe that "if the dot where not present"... the delta would shift to another point!


___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5254
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Lynn on Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:46 pm

Yes, sorry. I thought the dots were where they had placed the delta, rather than an actual ridge dot. But you are right, FBI do not place the delta in an open space
quote from just above fig 20 -
the delta in fingerprints, which is the first obstruction of any nature at the point of divergence of the type lines in front of or nearest the center of the divergence.

___________________________________________
Lynn
www.handanalysis.co.uk
Lynn
Lynn

Posts : 2443
Join date : 2010-07-24
Location : Devon, England

http://www.handanalysis.co.uk

Back to top Go down

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:12 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 3-12-210

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Should26

Patti, thanks for sharing those materials!

Because the content of both sources has significant implications for our Disney print...

While the F.B.I. book does not deal with the situation where the triradius manifests as a 'large triangle'... the word 'triangle' is not even mentioned, these 2 sources do describe what to do:

Quoted from "Dermatoglyphics in Medical Disorders" (page 34):

"Sometimes the triradial point does not lie on a ridge and is determined as the point where the three angles between the innermost ridges are each as near as possible to 120 degrees (Figure 3.5 E,F)."

This implicates that we now even have a 'scenario' available in which the issue of the SHOULDER LINE... becomes completely irrelevant!

I disagree (of course Wink )

Figure 3.5 F is a tented arch. Upthrust on horizontal plane. There is no opening on the side of the upthrust.

Fig 3.5 E is missing an object (ridge) to place the centered, out in front, delta (here called triradius). So the focal point is placed midway on nothing. The FBI takes you to a ridge, which can be a location on the side of a recurving ridge line. A central point would be more reliable than the FBI's method, if you are looking at a high quality photograph or the actual finger. Otherwise, it could be a dot that didn't get inked when looking at an inkprint.

In all other examples there are 3 parallel lines opening into the center. One has a dot in the center, mid point, out in front of (all) the parallel diverging lines. Others have the focal point placed at the end of a rod. One is a triradius with all three ridges meeting in the center, all of it's branches enter the center between parallel diverging lines.

This last mentioned 3.5 A, is most likely a tented arch, too. The ridges on both sides appear to rise up against the sides of the upright ridge at an angle. It's possible that a ridge loops on the right or left, but we'd be looking at a similar situation to this discussion.
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:32 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:

So, this implicates that we can safely assume that there is 'triangle', and according what is described by Penrose (Schaumann & Alter refer to the work of Penrose), in the Disney print the DELTA should actually be positioned INSIDE the triangle....!!!

And whether I am right of wrong about the 'shoulder line', it is no longer an essential element to be considered in our discussion, because with the DELTA positioned in the center of the 'large triangle'...that would only result in a discussion about whether the 'ridge count = 1... or 2 (and both situations result in a 'ridge count').

Penrose's work us to position the DELTA in the center of the 'large triangle'... and therefore there 'ridge count' is for sure not spoiled by a missing 'white zone' due to the connection between 'bifurcation 1' and 'bifurcation 4'!

The triangle that is formed in Penrose's example is formed by 3 rods that enter from between two parallel diverging ridges on all sides.

as in:

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Fig02511

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Fig02512

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Fig15310


Last edited by Patti on Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:03 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : clarity)
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:00 am

Martijn, in your argument now for a radial loop, you are ignoring that the delta is out in front of the diverging parallel lines.

When you are looking at all these examples of a triradius, you must also think of one of those sides as the side with the looping ridges with a core inside.

We are looking at basically the same thing we have been looking at in the FBI book, you are just not imagining the loop on the left or right side of the illustrated triradii.

Sorry, Lynn, but if you are basing your new swing on Martijn's argument, you might want to look closer at the triradii and his interpretation as I pointed out in my last posts.

Also a dot can be a delta:

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Fig02110

Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:09 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 1937-l29

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Fig02514


You have drawn a tented arch formation with your yellow lines.

It's part of that concept where there is a triangle at the horizontal plane with a tent pole above it. Then if there is a single recurving loop it frequently is angled very tightly, 90 degrees or less.

Also, the upper yellow rising line is pointing to the core, at the location where you did have the yellow dot, you can now see that a radiant aims to the core and it is not "open" to the core.

See in all the examples in the uploaded triradii samples, there are three open sides, and you can't tell which is open to the core, except for the tented arches.
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:37 am

Fig. 136 and 137 are examples of fig. 3.5 E

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Fig13612

3 pairs of parallel diverging ridges with nothing in the center.
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Lynn on Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:31 am

Sorry, Lynn, but if you are basing your new swing on Martijn's argument, you might want to look closer at the triradii and his interpretation as I pointed out in my last posts.
My 'new swing' just takes me back to where I started before we even began this discussion! Sorry Patti but some of your last posts aren't making sense to me!

Patti wrote:I disagree (of course Wink )

Figure 3.5 F is a tented arch. Upthrust on horizontal plane. There is no opening on the side of the upthrust.
..........
This last mentioned 3.5 A, is most likely a tented arch, too. The ridges on both sides appear to rise up against the sides of the upright ridge at an angle. It's possible that a ridge loops on the right or left, but we'd be looking at a similar situation to this discussion.

Patti, you can't identify a fingerprint from a triradius.

For example,
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Trirad10

is from fig 300, a central pocket loop.
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Centra10


The diagrams are drawn with a 'horizontal plane', but the triradial point is in the centre of a 360 degree circle (each 'arm' of the triradius being about 120 degees.) so you can't be sure it is a 'horizontal plane' just by looking at a triradius.

e.g.
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 286_tr13

has been rotated from fig 286 - a whorl
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 286_wh10



___________________________________________
Lynn
www.handanalysis.co.uk
Lynn
Lynn

Posts : 2443
Join date : 2010-07-24
Location : Devon, England

http://www.handanalysis.co.uk

Back to top Go down

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Lynn on Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:14 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 1937-l29

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Fig02514


You have drawn a tented arch formation with your yellow lines.

It's part of that concept where there is a triangle at the horizontal plane with a tent pole above it. Then if there is a single recurving loop it frequently is angled very tightly, 90 degrees or less.

Also, the upper yellow rising line is pointing to the core, at the location where you did have the yellow dot, you can now see that a radiant aims to the core and it is not "open" to the core.

See in all the examples in the uploaded triradii samples, there are three open sides, and you can't tell which is open to the core, except for the tented arches.

from FBI book - "● The delta may not be located at a bifurcation which does not open toward the core."
"Open to the core" applies to bifurcations, not triradii.
I still can't find any reference in FBI book to a radiant or bifurcation "aiming at the core" or "pointing at the core". You keep mentioning it, but where did you get the idea?


___________________________________________
Lynn
www.handanalysis.co.uk
Lynn
Lynn

Posts : 2443
Join date : 2010-07-24
Location : Devon, England

http://www.handanalysis.co.uk

Back to top Go down

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:19 pm

Patti wrote:
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Fig02514

You have drawn a tented arch formation with your yellow lines.

It's part of that concept where there is a triangle at the horizontal plane with a tent pole above it. Then if there is a single recurving loop it frequently is angled very tightly, 90 degrees or less.

Patti.... the example above is not an 'upthrust on a horizontal plane' because the upper line is simply not positioned on the horizontal plane: it is just a terminating ridge line on top of a triangular constellation - see the following example(s) from the F.B.I. book:

Especially figure 99 in the F.B.I. book has a likewise triangular configuration... but one can not ignore the context: because combined with the 'ridge count' it is simply counted as a loop! (+ figure 85 + 182 present related example)


So, Lynn pointed out correctly... that you can not identify the pattern of a fingerprint from a triradius only (as you suggested regarding example 3.5F from Schaumann & Alter).

Your mistake indicates that you are working with a 'tunnel vision': you appear to be focussed on details without considering the context.


Second, regarding the Disney print, example 133 in the F.B.I. book is an example that approaches the loop (but is a tented arch because there is no ridge count). However in the Disney print there is also the looping ridge line, which explains that there is at least a 'ridge count = 1'... and applying Penrose's rule and/or the issue with the shoulder line would result in a higher ridge count.


And remember, page 41 describes that 'bifurcations' in a looping ridge line do not spoil the ridge line (because the 2 bifurcations do not show any no sharp sudden changes in direction). So, that takes away another of your arguments.

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5254
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:23 pm

Lynn wrote:
Sorry, Lynn, but if you are basing your new swing on Martijn's argument, you might want to look closer at the triradii and his interpretation as I pointed out in my last posts.
My 'new swing' just takes me back to where I started before we even began this discussion! Sorry Patti but some of your last posts aren't making sense to me!

Patti wrote:I disagree (of course Wink )

Figure 3.5 F is a tented arch. Upthrust on horizontal plane. There is no opening on the side of the upthrust.
..........
This last mentioned 3.5 A, is most likely a tented arch, too. The ridges on both sides appear to rise up against the sides of the upright ridge at an angle. It's possible that a ridge loops on the right or left, but we'd be looking at a similar situation to this discussion.

Patti, you can't identify a fingerprint from a triradius.

For example,
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Trirad10

is from fig 300, a central pocket loop.
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Centra10


The diagrams are drawn with a 'horizontal plane', but the triradial point is in the centre of a 360 degree circle (each 'arm' of the triradius being about 120 degees.) so you can't be sure it is a 'horizontal plane' just by looking at a triradius.

e.g.
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 286_tr13

has been rotated from fig 286 - a whorl

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 286_wh10



I'm not sure I'm understanding what you see in the central pocket whorl, but I see two different types of triradii

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Centra10

Maybe I misunderstood, but I read Penrose to describe a whorl as two loops combined or fused.

So we are either looking at triradius for a loop, one on each side of a whorl, or the triradius that forms on a horizontal plane.

Important thing is to visualize the triradii branches as being the open space between parallel diverging ridges, or an actual ridge running down the middle between parallel diverging ridges.

One of each of these two kinds is in example 300.

Here's how I would see 286.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 286_wh10

In the examples from Penrose and from Schaumann & Alter, which I uploaded earlier. They are all drawn so that the bottom of the triradius is at the proximal part of the print.

Fig. F, does not have opening parallel diverging ridges on 3 sides. (eventually you'll see what I mean by 3 open sides, and 3 branches. 3 sides open to something and 3 branches pointing at something. If it's not open to a focal point, it must be pointing at it.)


Last edited by Patti on Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:40 pm

[url]X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Centra10[/url]

The left triradius matches Fig. 3.5 E
The right triradius matches Fig. 3.5 A

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 3-12-211
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:30 pm

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Walt_d11

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Finger12

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Spur_p10
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:45 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Fig02514

You have drawn a tented arch formation with your yellow lines.

It's part of that concept where there is a triangle at the horizontal plane with a tent pole above it. Then if there is a single recurving loop it frequently is angled very tightly, 90 degrees or less.

Patti.... the example above is not an 'upthrust on a horizontal plane' because the upper line is simply not positioned on the horizontal plane: it is just a terminating ridge line on top of a triangular constellation - see the following example(s) from the F.B.I. book:

Especially figure 99 in the F.B.I. book has a likewise triangular configuration... but one can not ignore the context: because combined with the 'ridge count' it is simply counted as a loop! (+ figure 85 + 182 present related example)

...

Your mistake indicates that you are working with a 'tunnel vision': you appear to be focussed on details without considering the context.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Fig15311
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:09 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Fig02514

You have drawn a tented arch formation with your yellow lines.

It's part of that concept where there is a triangle at the horizontal plane with a tent pole above it. Then if there is a single recurving loop it frequently is angled very tightly, 90 degrees or less.

Patti.... the example above is not an 'upthrust on a horizontal plane' because the upper line is simply not positioned on the horizontal plane: it is just a terminating ridge line on top of a triangular constellation - see the following example(s) from the F.B.I. book:

Especially figure 99 in the F.B.I. book has a likewise triangular configuration... but one can not ignore the context: because combined with the 'ridge count' it is simply counted as a loop! (+ figure 85 + 182 present related example)

So, Lynn pointed out correctly... that you can not identify the pattern of a fingerprint from a triradius only (as you suggested regarding example 3.5F from Schaumann & Alter).

Your mistake indicates that you are working with a 'tunnel vision': you appear to be focussed on details without considering the context.


Second, regarding the Disney print, example 133 in the F.B.I. book is an example that approaches the loop (but is a tented arch because there is no ridge count). However in the Disney print there is also the looping ridge line, which explains that there is at least a 'ridge count = 1'... and applying Penrose's rule and/or the issue with the shoulder line would result in a higher ridge count.


And remember, page 41 describes that 'bifurcations' in a looping ridge line do not spoil the ridge line (because the 2 bifurcations do not show any no sharp sudden changes in direction). So, that takes away another of your arguments.

I can tell we are not looking at the materials in the same perspective. This is how I interpret what I'm seeing:

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Fig09610

Yes, fig. 99 is a loop because of the ridge count between the delta (which would be placed at the center of the crossing ridges, atop the triangle) and the core (placed at the top distal point of the far rod) Delta is open to the core. Similar to Disney's except fig. 99 does fulfill the requirements for a loop.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Fig18210

Fig. 182, has a delta in the shape as Fig. 3.5 A
The ridge count between the delta (center of the triradius) This side is open to the core, branches of triradius point elsewhere.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Fig08410

Fig. 85, Delta moves to the closest bifurcation, out in front and in the center of diverging parallel lines.

They placed the delta on the bifurcation that looks like Fig. 3.5 A. Side is open to the core, and only 2 ridge counts.
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Lynn on Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:24 pm

Patti, seems I've not explained well as you haven't understood what I was saying.

You said
]Figure 3.5 F is a tented arch. Upthrust on horizontal plane. There is no opening on the side of the upthrust.
..........
This last mentioned 3.5 A, is most likely a tented arch, too. The ridges on both sides appear to rise up against the sides of the upright ridge at an angle. It's possible that a ridge loops on the right or left, but we'd be looking at a similar situation to this discussion.

What I was trying to say is: you can't assess what fingerprint it is by looking at a 'disembodied' triradius.

If I had just shown these triradii,
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Trirad10

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 286_tr13

would you have known that they came from

a central pocket loop and a whorl?
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Centra10

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 286_wh10

Would you have known where the horizontal plane was just by looking at the 'disembodied' triradius?

You feel confident to say that "Figure 3.5 F is a tented arch. " BUt how can you know that? It could have come from any print.

re
"In the examples from Penrose and from Schaumann & Alter, which I uploaded earlier. They are all drawn so that the bottom of the triradius is at the proximal part of the print."
Sorry if I've missed it, where does it say that? Or did you make assumption? ie. could you tell just from looking at the triradii I posted, that I had rotated the whorl one?

(eventually you'll see what I mean by 3 open sides, and 3 branches. 3 sides open to something and 3 branches pointing at something. If it's not open to a focal point, it must be pointing at it.

I know what you mean by it, and your diagrams in your following post confirm that I understand what you mean. BUT how is it relevant to anything? You keep mentioning it, but I don't know where you got it from. Where does it say in the FBI book or in Penrose anything about a branch or arm POINTING at the core (or pointing at anything).
The only time this might be relevant is in a tented arch where the core and delta are on the same 'arm'
The only time "open to something" came up was when a bifurcation is "open to the core". It is only the narrowest angle of the bifurcation that can be open to the core, not the 'sides' - and it doesn't apply to triradii as they are not even mentioned in FBI book.


Last edited by Lynn on Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:40 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : spelling, clarity, quote)

___________________________________________
Lynn
www.handanalysis.co.uk
Lynn
Lynn

Posts : 2443
Join date : 2010-07-24
Location : Devon, England

http://www.handanalysis.co.uk

Back to top Go down

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:40 pm

I think it's important to find the triradius and/or a delta by first finding the diverging parallel lines.

Fig. 55 is a good example.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Fig_5510

The branch that points to the core, doesn't allow for a white space between it and the core, so the ridge it touches isn't counted.

If you look at it from another mental/visual perspective, still within the rules, you can see this:

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Fig_5511

The first possible delta is disregarded because it has a radiant pointing to the core, or in the line between the delta and the core. The next location, that isn't counted (and you don't count a delta) is actually without them saying is where the delta is now moved. Look at its shape. A side is now open to the core. All three green branches can be seen as entering between two parallel ridges, and they meet in the center of the green lines.
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:07 pm

Lynn wrote:Patti, seems I've not explained well as you haven't understood what I was saying.

You said
]Figure 3.5 F is a tented arch. Upthrust on horizontal plane. There is no opening on the side of the upthrust.
..........
This last mentioned 3.5 A, is most likely a tented arch, too. The ridges on both sides appear to rise up against the sides of the upright ridge at an angle. It's possible that a ridge loops on the right or left, but we'd be looking at a similar situation to this discussion.

What I was trying to say is: you can't assess what fingerprint it is by looking at a 'disembodied' triradius.

If I had just shown these triradii,
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Trirad10

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 286_tr13

would you have known that they came from

a central pocket loop and a whorl?
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Centra10

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 286_wh10

Would you have known where the horizontal plane was just by looking at the 'disembodied' triradius?

You feel confident to say that "Figure 3.5 F is a tented arch. " BUt how can you know that? It could have come from any print.

re
"In the examples from Penrose and from Schaumann & Alter, which I uploaded earlier. They are all drawn so that the bottom of the triradius is at the proximal part of the print."
Sorry if I've missed it, where does it say that? Or did you make assumption? ie. could you tell just from looking at the triradii I posted, that I had rotated the whorl one?

(eventually you'll see what I mean by 3 open sides, and 3 branches. 3 sides open to something and 3 branches pointing at something. If it's not open to a focal point, it must be pointing at it.

I know what you mean by it, and your diagrams in your following post confirm that I understand what you mean. BUT how is it relevant to anything? You keep mentioning it, but I don't know where you got it from. Where does it say in the FBI book or in Penrose anything about a branch or arm POINTING at the core (or pointing at anything).
The only time this might be relevant is in a tented arch where the core and delta are on the same 'arm'
The only time "open to something" came up was when a bifurcation is "open to the core". It is only the narrowest angle of the bifurcation that can be open to the core, not the 'sides' - and it doesn't apply to triradii as they are not even mentioned in FBI book.

In fig. 3.5 F, you cannot find an intersection of 3 lines or 3 empty canals (each between diverging parallel lines) If you do visual 3 sides at the very center with the short upthrust, the upthrust is sitting on a plane that is about 180 degrees or horizontal.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Fig_3_10

Fig F is a combination of Fig A, where it is lines and not canals that create the triradial effect, and the other examples where it is canals or open space between the parallel diverging ridges at the center.

You can trace the canals or the lines down diverging parallels lines. In Fig. F you can trace the horizonal section following the space or canal and then you are tracing a line (upthrust) between diverging parallel lines going upward.

Can you see what I'm trying to say, even if you disagree with the concept?
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:30 pm

Lynn, I don't think being open to the core represents the narrowest side, as I just illustrated.

It simply represents a side is open to the core and a branch is not in line with it. 3 sides, 3 branches.

When you speak of the narrowest open side of a bifurcation, there is only one example and it is discussing when a line splits (a bifurcation) and runs parallel (creating a narrow open side) and then diverges, it can be counted as the type lines.

See example 16 in the book.

It really isn't the narrowest side, it's the side that is open. Show me where it says it's the narrow side. It can appear that way in some loops because the two parallel lines coming into the looping pattern (and there is only 1 of the 3 pairs that enter from the side, the other two diverging parallel lines are surrounding the pattern) is sort of Y shaped. Rather than 120 degrees from branch to branch.

Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:00 pm

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Fig13613

In these examples the "canal", of the 3 empty spaces, between the 3 sets of diverging parallel lines, is in line with, or pointing to the core.

The triradial area is like what you see in fig. 3.5 E


X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Fig_3_11
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 22 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 22 of 26 Previous  1 ... 12 ... 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum