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Single ridge connecting a-triradius and high-set axial triradius? (photo link)

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Single ridge connecting a-triradius and high-set axial triradius? (photo link)

Post  kiwihands on Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:07 am

I'm not sure if this is even the case, as in the middle of the palm the ridges become very fine and close together - but it may be. Have a look here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/58152183@N03/5620779592/in/photostream

Has anyone ever come across this before? If so, any theories?

(This is my left hand. The axial triradius in my right is in its normal place.)


Thanks!

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Re: Single ridge connecting a-triradius and high-set axial triradius? (photo link)

Post  Patti on Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:16 am

You really didn't show enough print to fully follow the flow.

In my opinion, it is a tented arch. lol!
Middle column, 3rd down, or a plain arch, column on right - bottom sample.


"Finger Prints Palms & Soles" Cummins & Midlo
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Re: Single ridge connecting a-triradius and high-set axial triradius? (photo link)

Post  kiwihands on Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:51 am

Hahhaaha! A tented arch. That would be just my luck. lol!

But I wasn't very clear in my question - what I was wondering about wasn't so much the pattern on the Moon/Uranus mount, but the apparent connection between the a-triradius and the (raised) axial triradius.

I have read that the central skin ridge emanating from the a-triradius is supposed to go across the hand and out the ulnar side, and the ridge coming out of the axial triradius supposed to flow out the radial side between thumb and index.
But in my hand it looks like the central skin ridge emanating from the a-triradius is either flowing straight INTO the axial triradius, or out towards the wrist. Definitely not out the ulnar side ... hmmm, actually you may have answered my question already in your other post, I just realised, when you said that ridges from the radial side may flow either out the percussion OR loop back around the thumb.

The question was - am I seeing this "connection" correctly? And would it just be an odd coincidence or mean something?

Yay, Friday night for me now, a whole weekend to read more more more about hands! Wheeee!

cheers

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Re: Single ridge connecting a-triradius and high-set axial triradius? (photo link)

Post  Patti on Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:16 am

Hi Kiwi,

I probably should have been clearer since I have now mentioned three ways the ridges flow from the radial side. (here and in a different thread)

They can flow off the side from radial to ulnar.
They can form a loop and return back to the radial side *above* the thumb.
Then they can also flow from the radial side all the way to the ulnar edge, but instead of disappearing (looping) off the side (back of hand) the ridges curve along the edge and flow back toward the radial side at the wrist area. See the bottom pattern of the middle column above.

This A-Main line has some ending locations that are more common than others. It can be located in a wide span from between the little finger all the way to the wrist by the thenar area. Rarely is it located at those extreme ends. Mostly it ends under the heart line and above the head line.

It's normal to connect to a higher up axial triradius, but it's just as normal to not connect to it. I've just looked at illustrations that show both possibilities.
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Re: Single ridge connecting a-triradius and high-set axial triradius? (photo link)

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:38 pm


Hello Kiwihands,

A few comments from my side:

1 - This palmar 'triradius' is probably not high enough positioned to be described as a 'high positioned':

Therefore I would describe it as a t'-triradius (which is between the normal t and the high possitioned t'') for multiple reasons:
1) It is positioned at a considerable position below the head line (and the head line even has downward slope);
2) The AtD-angle appears to be smaller than 40 degrees (which is quite normal);
3) The distance between a- and d-triradius is MUCH smaller than the distance between the t' triradius and the b-triradius (the b-triradius is found below the middle finger);

And I agree with Patti about that we see too little of the full mount of Moon to make a permanent assessment.


2 - But I do not agree with Patti about calling it a 'tented arch':

Because Patti's featured picture (take from Cummins & Midlo) clearly describes that for a tented arch there is a requirement that certain ridge lines 'curve around' the TENT (at the pinky side of the triradius). But that requirement is not seen in your hand at all: because all ridges appears to end as 'horizontal ridges' at the pinky-side of your hand.

So I don't see any evidence at all to associate your t'-triradius with a tented arch.


3 - And finally, regarding the path of the a-line (starting in the triradius below the index finger) and the upper radiant from the t'-triradius:

I think you have followed the ridges quite well with the litte 'dots' but if I continue to follow those dots in the photo... then I can observe that there are a few ridges between both path: I think that there are about 4 ridges between them.

Therefore I would like to advice you to try to follow the path of both the a-line and the upper radiant once again, and just a little bit further (especially the a-line clearly curves inward). Then you should be able to confirm what I just described.


Anyway, thanks again for sharing your questions!

Thumbs up!

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Re: Single ridge connecting a-triradius and high-set axial triradius? (photo link)

Post  Patti on Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:50 pm

Martijn, take a look at the illustration on page 50 of Cummins & Midlo. The foot shows the pattern extended "extralimital" Read bottom of page 58, top of page 59 for details.

Kiwi, Martijn is incorrect in telling you that the entire pattern must be visible on the palm side to count as a specific pattern.

I have to leave for work shortly (reading hands for a Cincinnati Ballet event tonight) but will share more later.
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Re: Single ridge connecting a-triradius and high-set axial triradius? (photo link)

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:16 am

Patti wrote:Martijn, take a look at the illustration on page 50 of Cummins & Midlo. The foot shows the pattern extended "extralimital" Read bottom of page 58, top of page 59 for details.

Kiwi, Martijn is incorrect in telling you that the entire pattern must be visible on the palm side to count as a specific pattern.

I have to leave for work shortly (reading hands for a Cincinnati Ballet event tonight) but will share more later.

Patti, you are referring to a comment about 'extralimital' triradii... which is basically ONLY related to a situation where a loop/whorl is seen without ANY triradius at all (because it has shifted towards the back of the finger).


So, I first observed that you made an unfounded suggestion for a 'palmar tented arch' ... but now I observe that you are also trying to defend that suggestion with an out-of-context argument (specified to the issue of: 'extralimital triradii', a topic which only directly relates to missing triradii in fingerprints).

And I should add here: yes of course... I understand that the issue 'extralimital triradii' can also manifest in the hypothenar area, but I also understand that this would require the presence of specified ridges that have a certain path which can directly be associated with an 'extralimital' palmar triradius. However, I already mentioned in my first comment that such ridges are not visible at all: because in all three areas outside the t'-triradius the path of the ridges is actually pretty normal: there are no 'strong curvations' that could be associated with a 'missing triradius'.).


Patti, it would have made much more sense if you had immediately described specified characteristics of Kiwihands' hypothenar area which made you think of a 'tented arch'.

Therefore I invite you to specify your observations ... for example: can you name characteristics which can directly be associated with a 'palmar tented arch'?


(So far I think maybe you got a little bit mislead by the little 'right angle marker' that Kiwihands used to mark the position of the hypothenar triradius, but the surrounding ridges indicate that her 'right angle marker' does not reflect the path of the ridges in that area - see the picture below)



___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Re: Single ridge connecting a-triradius and high-set axial triradius? (photo link)

Post  Patti on Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:08 am







Martijn, although Cummins & Midlo mention the triradii, their comment is not limited to triradii, but also the rest of the pattern.

Kiwi, there's a time in our early development that nearly the entire body is patterned. Palms & Soles with their ridges and the rest of the body with hair folicles or lanugo, the patterns formed are permanent in the directional growth of hair and the ridges.



Last edited by Patti on Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Single ridge connecting a-triradius and high-set axial triradius? (photo link)

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:49 pm

Patti wrote:





Martijn, although Cummins & Midlo mention the triradii, their comment is not limited to triradii, but also the rest of the pattern.

Kiwi, there's a time in our early development that nearly the entire body is patterned. Palms & Soles with their ridges and the rest of the body with hair folicles or lanugo, the patterns formed are permanent in the directional growth of hair and the ridges.


Yes Patti, I can confirm the comments in your last post.

But the problem that I observe is... that you incorrectly made the assocation between Kiwihands' hypothenar and this phenomenon. Because the essential characteristics of a 'hypothenar tented arch' are actually missing in her hand: again, see the curves of the ridges that flow to the outside of the palm.


And actually... the consequence of how you made this association is that ANY triradius on the hypothenar could be associated with such 'extralimital' patterns - but that is not what Cummins & Midlo described at all.

For, you association actually violates the visual guidelines that Cummins & Midlo described for the 'hypothenar tented arch' in the picture in your former post.

Therefore, so far you appear to ignore the other differences between specific characteristics of the 'hypothenar arches' and the 'hypothenar tented arches, in the picture below:




I hope this explains why I asked you to describe specific characteristics of Kiwihands' hypothenar.

But it is not surprising to see that even after 3 posts you still didn't mention any characteristic (beyond the position of the hypothenar triradius itself) - because I observe that the essential characteristics of a 'hypothenar tented arch' are actually missing in her hand.

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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Re: Single ridge connecting a-triradius and high-set axial triradius? (photo link)

Post  Patti on Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:18 pm

Patti wrote:You really didn't show enough print to fully follow the flow.

In my opinion, it is a tented arch. lol!
Middle column, 3rd down, or a plain arch, column on right - bottom sample.

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Re: Single ridge connecting a-triradius and high-set axial triradius? (photo link)

Post  kiwihands on Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:22 pm

Hi Patti,

Thanks for your clarification of the directional flow of palmer ridges, and the spectrum of ending locations for the A-line - that all makes sense now. And great to know that, whether or not it’s connected, it’s all in the normal range. I think I have a propensity to think everything is significant somehow, just because I haven’t seen enough hands to compare with ...

I understand what is meant by “extralimital” patterns now, too, and how this phenomenon can relate to both triradii and loops. Interesting concept!

And WOW – your picture of the foetus – amazing! It’s quite fascinating to know that the entire body is patterned like this.

Here is a link to a more complete picture of the area in question: http://www.flickr.com/photos/58152183@N03/5628858223/in/photostream

Cheers!
cheers

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Re: Single ridge connecting a-triradius and high-set axial triradius? (photo link)

Post  kiwihands on Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:43 pm

Thanks for your comments Martijn! Again, it’s great to be able to draw on more experienced reader’s views than mine! I very much appreciate how you structure your responses, too; it makes them very easy to follow and understand.

It’s a relief to know that mine is just a t’ triradius, especially after reading about the possible implications with congenital heart disease, etc., of the higher one, and very useful to have those 3 criteria you mentioned to determine if an axial triradius is abnormally high. I knew about the AtD angle coming into play, but not about the position of t’ relative to the headline nor about the importance of the distances between the other triradii.

And yes, there are no ridges curving around the triradius, so I agree with you – probably no tented arch. But i have uploaded a larger picture just in case.

Thank you also for checking on my tracing – yes in the middle there I became unsure of what to do, since the ridges become very fine and seem to continue in slightly different directions below the head line. But you’re right; it may curve inwards and actually head down to the wrist. Good to know that whichever way the A-line goes, it’s all pretty normal, and I won’t have to worry about how much butter I put on my toast. Razz

Thanks again
Kiwi

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Re: Single ridge connecting a-triradius and high-set axial triradius? (photo link)

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:33 pm

kiwihands wrote:Thanks for your comments Martijn! Again, it’s great to be able to draw on more experienced reader’s views than mine! I very much appreciate how you structure your responses, too; it makes them very easy to follow and understand.

It’s a relief to know that mine is just a t’ triradius, especially after reading about the possible implications with congenital heart disease, etc., of the higher one, and very useful to have those 3 criteria you mentioned to determine if an axial triradius is abnormally high. I knew about the AtD angle coming into play, but not about the position of t’ relative to the headline nor about the importance of the distances between the other triradii.

And yes, there are no ridges curving around the triradius, so I agree with you – probably no tented arch. But i have uploaded a larger picture just in case.

Thank you also for checking on my tracing – yes in the middle there I became unsure of what to do, since the ridges become very fine and seem to continue in slightly different directions below the head line. But you’re right; it may curve inwards and actually head down to the wrist. Good to know that whichever way the A-line goes, it’s all pretty normal, and I won’t have to worry about how much butter I put on my toast. Razz

Thanks again
Kiwi

Hello Kiwihands,

Very nice to hear that my posts are easy for you to follow (yes, I usually use illustrative elements to make my 'lengthy' posts a bit more readable by 'structure').

And great to hear that you now also understand/recognize why you do not have a 'tented arch' on your mount of moon (yes, the ridge flow says it all: there are no steep 'curving ridges').

And yes, you are correct that the A-line actually ends at the wrist.

Thanks!

___________________________________________
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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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