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The TRIRADIUS in a fingerprint: how it develops, it's characteristics + a definition!

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The TRIRADIUS in a fingerprint: how it develops, it's characteristics + a definition!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:58 pm


After the word 'triradius' became introduced in the field of fingerprints at the beginning of the 20th century, it had already become an old-fashioned concept in the 80's - illustrated by the fact that the F.B.I. no longer used it in their Classic work of fingerprint assessment: 'The Science of Fingerprints' (1985, republished in 1989).


The major reason for this step made by the F.B.I. in the field of fingerprint assessment was probably resulting from the fact that only the 'delta' (point) - or the so-called 'triradial point' - is a necessary element to be identified (next to the indentification of the so-called 'core').

While the word 'triradius' is usually no longer used in the perspective of fingerprints (the F.B.I. only speaks of 'bifurcations'), it is still a common name used in the perspective of 'palmar dermatoglyphics' - especially the 'axial triradius' is still a very significant name (in the scientific literature this name was only rarely replaced by the words: 'axial delta').

Below follows a quick introduction to the concept of the 'triradius' + it's associated vocabulary.


How is a 'triradius' created?

In the following pictures one can see how 'triradii' result from the order of development for individual ridges in the various topographic areas of the fingerprints:



These pictures are taken from an article presented by Babler:
http://www.forensicitc.com/critical_stage_of_friction_ridge.htm
+ the pictures in this article are available here:
http://www.clpex.com/animation.htm


The scientific definition of a triradius

Schaumann & Alter defined the 'triradius' as follows (Dermatoglyphics in Medical Disorders, 1976, page 34):

"A triradius is formed by the confluence of three ridge systems... The geometric center of the triradius is designated as the triradial point. Ideally, the triradial point is the meeting point of three ridges that form angles of approximately 120 degrees with another."


(Edit:) Cummins & Midlo defined the 'triradius' as follows (Finger prints, palms & soles, 1943, page 57):

"TRIRADII. A triradius is located at the meeting point of three opposing ridge systems. In a typical whorl or loop such a meeting occurs that the conjunction of the three topographic zones - the pattern area, the distal transverse system and the proximal transverse system."


And Lionel Penrose (who invented the word 'dermatoglyphics') wrote about the triradius:

"From the central point of a triradius, which may be an island, a ridge junction, a ridge end or even a triangular enclosure, three radiant ridges lying roughly at angles of 120 degrees with one another can be theoretically traced. If the angle between two of these radiants is less than 90 degrees no triradius is deemed to exist."


NOTICE: During the 20 century the 'fingerprint vocabulary' has developed, and sometimes the vocabulary-choices of the researchers became quite confusing (resulting in that the words 'type lines' became defined differently in the F.B.I. system compared to how 'type lines' are defined in the earlier scientific vocabulary; and after Sir Francis Galton had introduced the word 'delta' as a typical SHAPE in a fingerprint, it became later re-defined as a POINT in the F.B.I. system)


Now... what does this all mean?


A SIMPLE, ADVANCED & VISUAL definition for the triradius!


1 - A SIMPLE DEFINITION FOR THE 'TRIRADIUS' IN A FINGERPRINT:

The 'triradius' is recognized by the presence of a meeting of 3 individual 'ridge fields', where the 3 'radiants' (starting from the 'triradial' point) should make angles that are close to 120 degrees - specified: all angles are required to be higher than 90 degrees [NOTICE: ridges manifest in a fingerprint as 'black lines'].

Therefore a 'triradius' can simply be recognized by the presence of the following shape (which represents: a meeting of 3 ridges, or the three 'radiants'):



(Additionally, if one of the angles between the radiants is smaller than 90 degrees, then one can speak of a radiating 'bifurcation', instead of a 'triradius')


2 - AN ADVANCED DEFINITION FOR THE 'TRIRADIUS' IN A FINGERPRINT:

A 'triradus' can be recognized by the presence of the following three elements:
- (a) a meeting of 3 individual 'ridge fields'; the meeting-point of the 3 ridges is the 'triradial point', and the 3 'radiants' starting from this point should make angles close to 120 degrees - and all angles should be higher than 90 degrees. [NOTICE: ridges manifest in a fingerprint as 'black lines'].
- (b) the confluence of 3 parallel 'ridge systems' [NOTICE: 'ridge system' = one ridge + the surrounding grooves];
- (c) it's location borders the 'three topographic zones' of the fingerprint [NOTICE: topographic areas include: (I) proximal area + (II) distal area + (III) pattern area].



3 - A VISUAL DEFINITION FOR THE 'TRIRADIUS' IN A FINGERPRINT:

NOTICE: In the picture below you can see how in the topographic areas (I, II and III) the three 'confluencing ridge systems' (RED ARROW I, RED ARROW 2, RED ARROW 3) are found, and how the three 'radiants' (1, 2 and 3)... can be recognized as (imaginary)borders between the topographic areas!!!



Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:15 pm; edited 5 times in total (Reason for editing : Cummins & Midlo's 'triradius' definition added, defintion vocabulary, image improvements)

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Re: The TRIRADIUS in a fingerprint: how it develops, it's characteristics + a definition!

Post  Lynn on Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:43 pm

Martijn, in your 'advanced definition' why have you ignored the words in Cummins & Midlo? They give a different definition of what a triradius can look like (triangle shape).

"A delta in the strict sense is a triangular plot, and the triradius is represented by the ridges forming it's boundary"


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Re: The TRIRADIUS in a fingerprint: how it develops, it's characteristics + a definition!

Post  Patti on Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:02 pm

Lynn wrote:Martijn, in your 'advanced definition' why have you ignored the words in Cummins & Midlo? They give a different definition of what a triradius can look like (triangle shape).

"A delta in the strict sense is a triangular plot, and the triradius is represented by the ridges forming it's boundary"


Lynn, it looks like Martijn has decided that Cummins & Midlo's description is now "outdated" and his theory supposes it to be replaced by the "Bifurcation and it's Variants" description.
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Re: The TRIRADIUS in a fingerprint: how it develops, it's characteristics + a definition!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:07 pm

Lynn wrote:Martijn, in your 'advanced definition' why have you ignored the words in Cummins & Midlo? They give a different definition of what a triradius can look like (triangle shape).

"A delta in the strict sense is a triangular plot, and the triradius is represented by the ridges forming it's boundary"


Lynn, thanks for mentioning Cummins & Midlo's definition of the 'triradius' - but I didn't ignore their words.

Initially I didn't mention their definition because I think they describe sort of exactly the same as it was described by Schaumann & Alter (see the EDIT in my former post).


Maybe you didn't notice... that I actually have included this issue of Cummins & Midlo's 'triradial plot' in Penrose's definition: which includes the words: 'triangular enclosure'...!!!


Very Happy ...Does this make sense now?


PS. One should better not focuss too much on the issue of the 'triradial plot', because the triradius-variants that have a little triangle surrounding the 'triradial point'... are rare - as we both know.

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Re: The TRIRADIUS in a fingerprint: how it develops, it's characteristics + a definition!

Post  Lynn on Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm

In the diagram, you have labelled the yellow part "3 meeting ridges". This confused me when you presented it earlier, as it labels the yellow area as ridges, but they are grooves.
Maybe it should be changed to 'ridge systems'.

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Re: The TRIRADIUS in a fingerprint: how it develops, it's characteristics + a definition!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:17 pm

Patti wrote:
Lynn wrote:Martijn, in your 'advanced definition' why have you ignored the words in Cummins & Midlo? They give a different definition of what a triradius can look like (triangle shape).

"A delta in the strict sense is a triangular plot, and the triradius is represented by the ridges forming it's boundary"


Lynn, it looks like Martijn has decided that Cummins & Midlo's description is now "outdated" and his theory supposes it to be replaced by the "Bifurcation and it's Variants" description.

Patti... you probably missed as well that I have the issue of 'triradial enclosure' mentioned in Penrose's definition for the 'triradius'.

PS. And I have explained in my response to Lynn why initially I had not included Cummins & Midlo's definition.

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Re: The TRIRADIUS in a fingerprint: how it develops, it's characteristics + a definition!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:22 pm

Lynn wrote:In the diagram, you have labelled the yellow part "3 meeting ridges". This confused me when you presented it earlier, as it labels the yellow area as ridges, but they are grooves.
Maybe it should be changed to 'ridge systems'.

Yes Lynn, I recognize how this indeed could become confusing.

In my earlier version I described them as '3 meeting ridge systems'; I will re-correct that back to how I described it back then.

Thanks!


EDIT: I have corrected the picture + changed the word choice in my simple definition (what I had described as 'meeting of 3 ridge systems' is now described as 'meeting of 3 individual ridge fields' - just like it is mentioned in the picture.)

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Re: The TRIRADIUS in a fingerprint: how it develops, it's characteristics + a definition!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:32 pm


... Bump

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Re: The TRIRADIUS in a fingerprint: how it develops, it's characteristics + a definition!

Post  Lynn on Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:41 pm

hi Martijn, I noticed your edits.
Personally I would have included C&M 'delta' definition of the triangular type triradius as they are quite specific about it, and obviously they deemed it important enough to mention.
Also more illustrations of the other forms of triradius (or triradial point/triradial area) that Penrose mentions to show some variations, because not all triradii look like the one in your illustration.

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Re: The TRIRADIUS in a fingerprint: how it develops, it's characteristics + a definition!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:30 pm


Hi Lynn, thanks for sharing your additional thoughts.

Yes, maybe I should add to the definition that in modern fingerprint assessment the focuss goes out to the 'triradial point' only (and not to the presence of a complete triradius-shape).

Because, then it also makes sense to present a few examples of how a 'triradial point' can manifest.


By the way, the reason why I am not happy with Cummins & Midlo's 1943 presentation is that they have not described the issue of the importance of the 'triradial point' (= the F.B.I.'s delta) very well... and illustrative visual examples are even missing (because figure 47 does not explicitely describe the issue of the 'triradial point' nor the importance of the 'area of the triradius' is mentioned).

Hmmm... after saying this, I hope you now fully understand why I think that this part of their book is actually a bit 'outdated' - while the descriptions of Penrose + Schaumann & Alter are less outdated because they described the issue of the 'triradial pint' with more details + some explicite visual examples.


Does this make sense for you so far?

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Re: The TRIRADIUS in a fingerprint: how it develops, it's characteristics + a definition!

Post  Lynn on Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:35 pm

I understand what you are saying. Obviously, it's your article about the triradius so it's entirely up to you what you choose to include or not.

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Re: The TRIRADIUS in a fingerprint: how it develops, it's characteristics + a definition!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:18 am

Lynn wrote:I understand what you are saying. Obviously, it's your article about the triradius so it's entirely up to you what you choose to include or not.

thinking ... Lynn, my thought right now is that it would probably make more sense for me to create also a new discussion about the F.B.I.'s delta (= Penrose's 'triradial point').

Because I still think that the Cummins & Midlo comment that I included in the definition after your feedback, is not adding anything to what Penrose + Schaumann & Alter have describe in the comments that I have quoted (I think those short comments really include all essential elements... including Cummins & Midlo 'triangular plot' = Penrose's 'triangular enclosure').


Actually ...

Maybe my observation also makes sense in the historical perspective... because Cummins & Midlo is the oldest of the 3 sources that we used in our discussions ( Schaumann & Alter only refer to Penrose's work between the years 1954-1970... while Cummins & Midlo's work was already presented in 1943!!!).

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Re: The TRIRADIUS in a fingerprint: how it develops, it's characteristics + a definition!

Post  Patti on Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:47 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Actually ...

Maybe my observation also makes sense in the historical perspective... because Cummins & Midlo is the oldest of the 3 sources that we used in our discussions ( Schaumann & Alter only refer to Penrose's work between the years 1954-1970... while Cummins & Midlo's work was already presented in 1943!!!).[/color]

I have a great admiration and deep respect for the valuable work of Cummins & Midlo. There are few research papers relating to dermatoglypics today that do not use their work as reference material.

I also do not think there is any discrepancy between Cummins & Midlo, Penrose, and Schaumann & Alter in their descriptions of the triradii. All relate to the coming together of three different fields of parallel ridges. All relate to configurations that involve angles nearly equal at 120 degrees. Both Schaumann & Alter and Cummins & Midlo describe clearly the either/or nature of these fields meeting in the form of ridges that meet at the outer angles or ridges that meet in a common center. Penrose illustrates this in 3 simple illustrations, and Schaumann & Alter expand the basic formations to illustrate what I interpret as the typical variants.
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Re: The TRIRADIUS in a fingerprint: how it develops, it's characteristics + a definition!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:53 am

Patti wrote:
I have a great admiration and deep respect for the valuable work of Cummins & Midlo. There are few research papers relating to dermatoglypics today that do not use their work as reference material.

I also do not think there is any discrepancy between Cummins & Midlo, Penrose, and Schaumann & Alter in their descriptions of the triradii. All relate to the coming together of three different fields of parallel ridges. All relate to configurations that involve angles nearly equal at 120 degrees. Both Schaumann & Alter and Cummins & Midlo describe clearly the either/or nature of these fields meeting in the form of ridges that meet at the outer angles or ridges that meet in a common center. Penrose illustrates this in 3 simple illustrations, and Schaumann & Alter expand the basic formations to illustrate what I interpret as the typical variants.

Hi Patti,

I understand your admiration of the work of Cummins & Midlo - especially since I am a fan of their work as well.

But you suggest that I described some kind of 'discrpancy', but that is not what I tried to describe. My point only relates to the their 'format of presentation' - which I think shows a lack of details - compared to the other works that we have discussed during the past months (Penrose, Schaumann & Alter, and the F.B.I. book).


I will now try to specify where I observe this lack of details exactly:

My problem with Cummins & Midlo's work lies in the fact that did not include specified guidelines for how to identify the triradial point when there is no meeting-point of three ridges.

For example: their index indicates that the issue of the 'triradial point' (point of triradius / point of delta) is only mentioned on page 58. While we now know - with the help of especially the F.B.I. book - that the identification of the 'triradial point' is really a complex issue, especially when there is no 'triradial' meeting point of three ridges (such as in the fingerprint example where there are multiple bifurcations that could serve as the delta, etc.).


So, I haven't found any conflicting materials in Cummins & Midlo's work (when compared to the other works). However I do observe that their work does not include likewise details as described in the works of Penrose, Schaumann & Alter, and the F.B.I.

I guess this lack of details regarding the issue of how to ídentify the 'triradial point'... is probably a direct result of that they present their theories in the perspective of Galton's system and Henry's system.


I hope my specification is helpfull for you to recognize that my point directly relates to how the 'art of fingerprint interpretation' has continued to evolve after Cummins & Midlo presented their work.

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Re: The TRIRADIUS in a fingerprint: how it develops, it's characteristics + a definition!

Post  Patti on Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:29 am

Then basically what you are saying is that you think that Cummins & Midlo failed to describe the triradial point?

I think the first paragraph might be confusing to some. They imply that at the time the book was written, those in the field used the term "delta" to mean the same as "triradius". As a synonym. In the first sentence they say there is a distinction between the two.

The word delta was based on the Greek letter for the 4th letter of their alphabet and because of it's shape became commonly used for a triangular shape.

C & M explain that because a triangular shape isn't always present, sometimes instead you'll find the 3 ridges meeting at a center point, the word "delta" is not used to mean "triradius".

I think all of the resources are telling us that the triradius itself is 3 ridges. 1 ridge from each field that converge upon each other. The three innermost ridges.

C & M say there's the "delta" shape and the "three ridges radiating from a common point" shape triradius.

So far nothing different here than in Penrose or Schaumann & Alter.

Then C & M tell us about the triradial point. In the case of the ridges radiating from a common point, the triradial point is the meeting location. Then in the "corresponding locus" or the location of the triradial point in the "delta" or triangular shape, they are not specific but 'assume' the reader can figure it out by working with simple triradii first, and when you have the concept, you can figure out more complicated patterns.

For me, I would think that since in the type where 3 ridges meet at the center, the center is the triradial point - we are trying to find the center of the other formations of triradii (3 innermost ridges). If it's a delta shape, then it'd be in the center of the triangular shape.

The FBI's rules show that when there is no "dot" in this area to move to the ridge wall beyond that central location.

You mention that this triangular shape is rarely seen. I think it is less commonly seen with all 3 corners touching. More often these outer corners are meeting each other in the form of converging parallel ridges.

Again, nothing different here. A triradial point is the center location of either the 3 ridges meeting at the corners or 3 ridges meeting at a common point. If the pattern isn't so clean cut and you have fragmental ridges we can use the rules by the FBI or figure out what looks like the center of 3 ridge fields meeting as suggested by C & M and illustrated by Schaumann & Alter.

They move on to radiants and continue with instructions for the two types of triradii. If it's the 3 ridges meeting, just trace each ridge. When it's the pattern where they meet at the outer corners you follow the ridge where it meets at the angle according to the rule for it's location in respect to the pattern area. Both locations of tracing the triradial point results in the same ridges being traced as the radiants.

I think they have actually described in detail what to look for and how to proceed with what you find more so than the other two sources. Penrose's precise description narrows down what to look for and Schaumann & Alter give you some alternatives or variations to the patterns, which Cummins & Midlo did with actual prints, but left it up to us to study and figure out the differences.

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Re: The TRIRADIUS in a fingerprint: how it develops, it's characteristics + a definition!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Apr 22, 2011 3:58 am

Patti wrote:
Then basically what you are saying is that you think that Cummins & Midlo failed to describe the triradial point?


...

I think they have actually described in detail what to look for and how to proceed with what you find more so than the other two sources. Penrose's precise description narrows down what to look for and Schaumann & Alter give you some alternatives or variations to the patterns, which Cummins & Midlo did with actual prints, but left it up to us to study and figure out the differences.


Hi Patti,

No, I did not describe that they 'failed' to describe the triradial point in general. Because they have described it perfectly for the situation of a fingerprint when 3 ridges meet.

Instead, I made the following specification:

"My problem with Cummins & Midlo's work lies in the fact that they did not include specified guidelines for how to identify the triradial point when there is no meeting-point of three ridges."


And I could add to what I already described in my former message: that figure 47F is not mentioned at all in their discussion.

While for example Schaumann & Alter have specified the triradial point for such an example: see figure 3.5-E.


Again, my point only relates to a lack of details regarding the 'triradial point' when there is no meeting of three ridges, and not only for figure 47F.

So,... I did not describe any 'discrepancy'... nor did I describe that 'Cummins & Midlo failed'.

And instead I described various aspects which illustrate that their guidelines + illustration are thorough, but still less specified than in the other works.

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Re: The TRIRADIUS in a fingerprint: how it develops, it's characteristics + a definition!

Post  Patti on Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:21 am

I think Fig. 3.5 E is the same as 3.5 B without the dot.

I think 3.5 B is the same as Penrose Fig. E without the radiants aiming directly at the dot.

I think 3.5 E is the same as Penrose G with the angles meeting as diverging innermost parallel ridges rather than joining.

To me, it appears that in all of the samples, except 3.5 F, we are looking at one of only two types of triradii.

Fig. 3.5 F, I see as a variation of 3.5 A or Penrose F. There are still 3 fields converging, two are lateral and the other proximal.





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Re: The TRIRADIUS in a fingerprint: how it develops, it's characteristics + a definition!

Post  Patti on Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:02 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Then basically what you are saying is that you think that Cummins & Midlo failed to describe the triradial point?


...

I think they have actually described in detail what to look for and how to proceed with what you find more so than the other two sources. Penrose's precise description narrows down what to look for and Schaumann & Alter give you some alternatives or variations to the patterns, which Cummins & Midlo did with actual prints, but left it up to us to study and figure out the differences.


Hi Patti,

No, I did not describe that they 'failed' to describe the triradial point in general. Because they have described it perfectly for the situation of a fingerprint when 3 ridges meet.

Instead, I made the following specification:

"My problem with Cummins & Midlo's work lies in the fact that they did not include specified guidelines for how to identify the triradial point when there is no meeting-point of three ridges."


And I could add to what I already described in my former message: that figure 47F is not mentioned at all in their discussion.

While for example Schaumann & Alter have specified the triradial point for such an example: see figure 3.5-E.


Again, my point only relates to a lack of details regarding the 'triradial point' when there is no meeting of three ridges, and not only for figure 47F.

So,... I did not describe any 'discrepancy'... nor did I describe that 'Cummins & Midlo failed'.

And instead I described various aspects which illustrate that their guidelines + illustration are thorough, but still less specified than in the other works.

wave

Ok, I agree that Cummins & Midlo did not go into detail describing the variety of ways the 3 ridges can meet as variants of the two that I label as Star and Delta triradii.

They are clear, however, on how to find the radiants.

Although, I don't agree with choosing a bifurcation that doesn't involve nearly equal angles, as a multi-purpose location to place the triradial point, if located next the pattern as is Kiwi's sample, it would only affect the ridge count by 1 if at all.

I do however, think that the FBI when they state "If the dot were not present, point B on ridge C, as shown in the figure, would be considered as the delta. This would be equally true whether the ridges were connected with one of the type lines, both type lines, or disconnected altogether." the connection they are referring to is the bifurcation that you would choose as the triradius with its center the triradial point.

Particularly so if it's distally connected. In that case, I still would see it as the distal angle of the triangular delta. That's my opinion and I realize you have already disagreed with that perspective so I'm not stating it as an argument. Rather simply a difference in opinion.





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Re: The TRIRADIUS in a fingerprint: how it develops, it's characteristics + a definition!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:47 pm

Patti wrote:
Ok, I agree that Cummins & Midlo did not go into detail describing the variety of ways the 3 ridges can meet as variants of the two that I label as Star and Delta triradii.

They are clear, however, on how to find the radiants.

Thanks Patti, nice to hear that you are now able to confirm my point! (First sentence above) Thumbs up!

And yes, in return I can agree about your second statement above because Cummins & Midlo do mention all essential elements (including that the pattern area requires to be known in order to trace the radiants).


PS. Regarding your comments about Kiwihands fingerprint, I am willing to respond on that as well... but I think we better continue about her hands in the appropriate discussion.

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Re: The TRIRADIUS in a fingerprint: how it develops, it's characteristics + a definition!

Post  Patti on Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:30 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
And yes, in return I can agree about your second statement above because Cummins & Midlo do mention all essential elements (including that the pattern area requires to be known in order to trace the radiants).

You've mentioned this before regarding the pattern area needs to be known in order to trace the radiants.

I think they say just the opposite.

To me it's sort of like 'connect the dots'. You don't truly see the precise pattern area until after the radiants are drawn.

Cummins and Midlo state on top of Pg. 57:

"These type lines, traced on the print according to conventions which are to be defined, are the radiants extended from the two triradii. The area enclosed by the type lines (but continuously enclosed on in the meet whorl, to be characterized later) is the pattern area. the type lines are appropriately termed the skeleton of the pattern. The form and design of the pattern are suggested by the skeleton, much as the bony framework of an animal gives a clue to the form of that animal in the flesh."

They continue to define the area above and below the pattern. Which implies that once you have made your outline, you can then determine the pattern from the distal and proximal transverse system. Also here, I think system is more than 1 ridge and its neighboring grooves.

I think if the pattern defines the radiants location as it seems you are suggesting, then they would have said the sentence I put in bold in reverse - the pattern defines the skeleton, but they didn't.

I think you only need to find the 3 systems meeting.
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Re: The TRIRADIUS in a fingerprint: how it develops, it's characteristics + a definition!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:21 am

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
And yes, in return I can agree about your second statement above because Cummins & Midlo do mention all essential elements (including that the pattern area requires to be known in order to trace the radiants).

You've mentioned this before regarding the pattern area needs to be known in order to trace the radiants.

I think they say just the opposite.

To me it's sort of like 'connect the dots'. You don't truly see the precise pattern area until after the radiants are drawn.

Cummins and Midlo state on top of Pg. 57:

"These type lines, traced on the print according to conventions which are to be defined, are the radiants extended from the two triradii. The area enclosed by the type lines (but continuously enclosed on in the meet whorl, to be characterized later) is the pattern area. the type lines are appropriately termed the skeleton of the pattern. The form and design of the pattern are suggested by the skeleton, much as the bony framework of an animal gives a clue to the form of that animal in the flesh."

They continue to define the area above and below the pattern. Which implies that once you have made your outline, you can then determine the pattern from the distal and proximal transverse system. Also here, I think system is more than 1 ridge and its neighboring grooves.

I think if the pattern defines the radiants location as it seems you are suggesting, then they would have said the sentence I put in bold in reverse - the pattern defines the skeleton, but they didn't.

I think you only need to find the 3 systems meeting.

Hi Patti,

Regarding the red words that you have marked, I actually had the following statement in the defintion of the 'radiants' in mind (see page 59, second alinea, last sentence):

"... In following a radiant beyond an interruption of a traced ridge, the tracing is continued on the ridge which is in end-to-end relation, or, if there is no such ridge, the tracing line is transferred to the next ridge on the side away from the interior of the pattern area; similarly, in meeting a bifurcation the tracing is followed on the peripherial branch of the fork."

So Cummins & Midlo are not saying 'the opposite' of what I described, because one in situations like described in the quote... the location of the pattern area requires to be know - otherwise one can not make that step.


PS. scratch ... By the way, maybe I understand why you made that association - because it could be the result of your assumption regarding some kind of 'order'. So maybe this also confirms another point that I have made regarding the F.B.I. book: there are no specific requirements described regarding the order for finding the key-elements.)

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Re: The TRIRADIUS in a fingerprint: how it develops, it's characteristics + a definition!

Post  Patti on Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:40 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
And yes, in return I can agree about your second statement above because Cummins & Midlo do mention all essential elements (including that the pattern area requires to be known in order to trace the radiants).

You've mentioned this before regarding the pattern area needs to be known in order to trace the radiants.

I think they say just the opposite.

To me it's sort of like 'connect the dots'. You don't truly see the precise pattern area until after the radiants are drawn.

Cummins and Midlo state on top of Pg. 57:

"These type lines, traced on the print according to conventions which are to be defined, are the radiants extended from the two triradii. The area enclosed by the type lines (but continuously enclosed on in the meet whorl, to be characterized later) is the pattern area. the type lines are appropriately termed the skeleton of the pattern. The form and design of the pattern are suggested by the skeleton, much as the bony framework of an animal gives a clue to the form of that animal in the flesh."

They continue to define the area above and below the pattern. Which implies that once you have made your outline, you can then determine the pattern from the distal and proximal transverse system. Also here, I think system is more than 1 ridge and its neighboring grooves.

I think if the pattern defines the radiants location as it seems you are suggesting, then they would have said the sentence I put in bold in reverse - the pattern defines the skeleton, but they didn't.

I think you only need to find the 3 systems meeting.

Hi Patti,

Regarding the red words that you have marked, I actually had the following statement in the defintion of the 'radiants' in mind (see page 59, second alinea, last sentence):

"... In following a radiant beyond an interruption of a traced ridge, the tracing is continued on the ridge which is in end-to-end relation, or, if there is no such ridge, the tracing line is transferred to the next ridge on the side away from the interior of the pattern area; similarly, in meeting a bifurcation the tracing is followed on the peripherial branch of the fork."

So Cummins & Midlo are not saying 'the opposite' of what I described, because one in situations like described in the quote... the location of the pattern area requires to be know - otherwise one can not make that step.


PS. scratch ... By the way, maybe I understand why you made that association - because it could be the result of your assumption regarding some kind of 'order'. So maybe this also confirms another point that I have made regarding the F.B.I. book: there are no specific requirements described regarding the order for finding the key-elements.)

I'm not sure what you are saying, as it seems like you're saying both sides.

In the red letters I copied at the top, it seems you are saying that you must determine the pattern before you can find the triradius.

In your response you seem to be in agreement that you must trace the radiants and in doing so, know the rules involved in moving along the ridges. i.e. moving to an outer from the pattern ridge at a bifurcation etc.

Perhaps I'm just misinterpretating your words in red and you simply mean that you need to know that you are looking at a pattern that involves a triradius, rather than a triradius can't be found before the pattern area is determined?

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Re: The TRIRADIUS in a fingerprint: how it develops, it's characteristics + a definition!

Post  Patti on Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:53 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:

PS. scratch ... By the way, maybe I understand why you made that association - because it could be the result of your assumption regarding some kind of 'order'. So maybe this also confirms another point that I have made regarding the F.B.I. book: there are no specific requirements described regarding the order for finding the key-elements.)

A practiced eye and most fingerprints wouldn't necessarily require following each step in a precise order. For others, and for the sake of accuracy and common results among professionals, standard procedures would make sense, to me.

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Re: The TRIRADIUS in a fingerprint: how it develops, it's characteristics + a definition!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:39 am

Patti wrote:
I'm not sure what you are saying, as it seems like you're saying both sides.

In the red letters I copied at the top, it seems you are saying that you must determine the pattern before you can find the triradius.

Hi Patti,

No, I was not talking about 'determining the pattern', nor was I talking about 'finding the triradius'.

With my (red) comment I only tried to describe that Cummins & Midlo stated that when a triradius does not manifest as the normal three connecting ridges... then one really needs to know at which side the pattern area is found... in order to trace the full path radiants from the triradial point. Because in that situation one always has to choose between ridges at one or the other side!

I hope that this longer explanation makes sense for you, and I also hope that then you are also able to recognize that I described the same with my comment that you marked with red color:

"... (including that the pattern area requires to be known in order to trace the radiants) ..."


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Re: The TRIRADIUS in a fingerprint: how it develops, it's characteristics + a definition!

Post  Patti on Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:56 am

"... one really needs to know at which side the pattern area is found... in order to trace the full path radiants from the triradial point. Because in that situation one always has to choose between ridges at one or the other side!"

Yes, I agree. This is exactly what I have tried to describe as what the FBI's rules were calling "open to the core".

The radiants and/or type lines must wrap around, surround, or hug the core or pattern area.
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