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Inverted Left Handers - Pres. Obama & Prince William

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Inverted Left Handers - Pres. Obama & Prince William

Post  Patti on Sun May 15, 2011 3:53 am

President Obama and Prince William share an uncommon trait, Inverted or Hooked hand writing.





I've added more information and images here
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Re: Inverted Left Handers - Pres. Obama & Prince William

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun May 15, 2011 11:25 am


Thanks Patti,

That's a very interesting aspect of left-handedness. Thumbs up!

The following article presents some data about the occurence of 'hooked writing' (inverted writing) among various groups:
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/medical-education/reprints/1985-CPRR-WritingHandPositionBirthStressFamilialFactors.pdf

Some details of the data presented in table 1:

- 'Inverted writing' is more common among males (15.5%) than among females (11.5%).
- 'Inverted writing' is much more common among left handers (29.4%) than among right handers (12.0%).


But the table also shows that there is a fascinating positive aspect assocatied with 'inverted writing', because the percentage is actually LOWER in people who were NOT confronted with birth stress (15.6%) vs. people who experienced significant birth stress (10.4%).

The percentage differences are even higher compared to the sexe-difference!


(Also it is interesting to notice that birth stress is much more common in males and in left-handed people)

wave

PS. I myself belong to the same 'happy' category of left-handed males who did not experience sigificant birth complications or trauma.... maybe the same is true for the prince and the president.



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Re: Inverted Left Handers - Pres. Obama & Prince William

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun May 15, 2011 11:42 am


This Canadian source (1978) confirms for a large population that 'inverted writing' is actually very common among left handers:


"Abstract - A survey of writing positions of left-handers in a sample of 5910 school children was conducted. There were significantly more male than female left-handers with an inverted writing position. There was a significant change in the incidence of left-handers with an inverted writing position over the six elementary school grades sampled with a much higher incidence in grades five and six than in the lower grades. The incidence of left-handers with an inverted writing position over all grades was 40% for males and 29% for females. For grades 5 and 6 the incidence was 59% for males and 43% for females."



Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sun May 15, 2011 5:00 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Inverted Left Handers - Pres. Obama & Prince William

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun May 15, 2011 4:01 pm


bounce .... here's another report based on a large population which suggests that the positive correlation between left-handedness & intelligence, is very likely specified to the groups of left-handers which use the 'inverted posture' for writing:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11516440 (2001)

"Abstract - Among 1848 young men appearing before the Danish draft board, 232 (13%) were left-handed. Of these, 118 (51%) used an inverted, or hook-like, writing posture, 49 (21%) used a non-inverted posture and the remaining 65 (28%) could not be categorized. There were no differences between left- and right-handers on a battery of four cognitive tests. However, inverted left-handers performed significantly or near-significantly better than the non-inverted left-handers on two of the four tests and significantly better on the total score for the test battery. These results support the contention that the inverted posture is adaptive for left-handers and suggest that it may be more likely to be adopted by those with better cognitive abilities. Our findings conflict with earlier reports from two decades ago, however, and the association may therefore be socially and culturally dependent."


PS. Patti, thanks again for bringing up this topic.

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Re: Inverted Left Handers - Pres. Obama & Prince William

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun May 15, 2011 5:45 pm

... and here's another study which suggests a positive effect of inverted writing in left handedness regarding (fast) writing abilities:

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/cep/41/1/20/

"Compared the writing performance of 33 inverted and 37 noninverted left-handed and right-handed writers (undergraduates). Inverted writers wrote as quickly and as well as noninverted writers when writing with the preferred writing posture but were superior to the latter group when performances with the nonpreferred posture were compared. There was no evidence that left-handers with either writing position were faster with the nonpreferred hand, in direct contradiction to R. Gregory and J. Paul's (see record 1981-11652-001) frequently cited claim that inverted left-handers write faster with the nonpreferred hand."

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Re: Inverted Left Handers - Pres. Obama & Prince William

Post  Patti on Sun May 15, 2011 6:14 pm

Hi Martijn!
Thanks for adding statistics!

I noticed the different reports, too. In your last post you mentioned the comparisons relating to motor skills, or how fast they would write. I saw several reports that said the motor skills were not affected or the study results didn't show much difference between inverted left handers and other hand writing positions.

I find most interesting the results that show how they use the brain bilaterally.

I read the book "Left Brain, Right Brain, in the late 80's and was intrigued by the idea a person was 'same sided'. More recent studies point more to bilateral than one sided or same sided brain activity in relation to sides of the body.

Frequently, when I'm reading hands and realize that I'm seeing dominant factors in both hands to the point I have to ask if they are left handed or right handed as it isn't obvious, I find they will tend to tell me about mixed dominance. Sometimes it's with the left hand they write, and most everything else is right handed or some other mixed combination. I read a girl the other day who said she played softball and naturally batted left handed, but wrote right handed.

About half of the time these people with mixed dominant features do invert their writing. I used to mention same-sidedness and received some interesting feedback. One person told me that the organs in his body were switched from left to right in mirror fashion.

I also trace the A-line down into the palm to see if that makes a difference. I would expect the A-line to be further down on the hand they don't use to write. What I find more often (anecdotally) is the A-lines are about the same in both hands, or the opposite of what I'd expect with the dominant writing hand having the lower A-line result.

Whenever I'm unsure of a person's handedness, I ask them how they hold their pen when they write.

Have you seen any statistics on females? In my experience I notice they are more likely to be inverted right handers than inverted left handers.

I noticed a while back that Obama was an inverted left hander, but I didn't realize Prince William was an inverted left hander until you posted the picture of him writing in another thread!

Thanks!
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Re: Inverted Left Handers - Pres. Obama & Prince William

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun May 15, 2011 7:02 pm

Patti wrote:...

I noticed a while back that Obama was an inverted left hander, but I didn't realize Prince William was an inverted left hander until you posted the picture of him writing in another thread!

Thanks!

Patti, here are a few other famous 'inverted' left handers:

(PS. I will respond to your other points at a later moment)


- Bill Gates (IQ estimated at 160):




- former US president candidate John McCain (IQ estimated at 133):




- former US president Gerald Ford (IQ estimated at 121):




- actress Angelina Jolie (IQ estimated at 122/136):




- Benjamin Netanyahu (IQ estimated at 180), prime minister of Israel:




Sources for the IQ scores:
http://www.kids-iq-tests.com/famous2.html
http://www.kids-iq-tests.com/r-prez.html

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Re: Inverted Left Handers - Pres. Obama & Prince William

Post  Patti on Sun May 15, 2011 8:10 pm

Nice collection!
I wouldn't include Angelina as she is writing under her writing rather than over the top. Bill Gates, I'd need to see another image of him writing to be sure. He's not crooking his wrist at all and I'm not sure if he's writing over the top or coming in from the side.

Interestingly the studies showed that with about 1/3 of the participants it was undecided whether they were inverted or non-inverted. I would guess this would mean that they matched some criteria for being inverted, but not others.
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Re: Inverted Left Handers - Pres. Obama & Prince William

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun May 15, 2011 9:15 pm

Patti wrote:Nice collection!
I wouldn't include Angelina as she is writing under her writing rather than over the top. Bill Gates, I'd need to see another image of him writing to be sure. He's not crooking his wrist at all and I'm not sure if he's writing over the top or coming in from the side.

Interestingly the studies showed that with about 1/3 of the participants it was undecided whether they were inverted or non-inverted. I would guess this would mean that they matched some criteria for being inverted, but not others.

Yes Patti, I understand what you mean regarding that photo first photo of Angelina - but I had found a few other photos which indicate that she can be counted as an 'inverted writer': because I think in all photos she 'points' the ballpoint likewise towards her self (and not away of herself).

I think most of the photos illustrate my observation.

Do you observe that as well? wave












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Re: Inverted Left Handers - Pres. Obama & Prince William

Post  Patti on Sun May 15, 2011 9:58 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:Nice collection!
I wouldn't include Angelina as she is writing under her writing rather than over the top. Bill Gates, I'd need to see another image of him writing to be sure. He's not crooking his wrist at all and I'm not sure if he's writing over the top or coming in from the side.

Interestingly the studies showed that with about 1/3 of the participants it was undecided whether they were inverted or non-inverted. I would guess this would mean that they matched some criteria for being inverted, but not others.

Yes Patti, I understand what you mean regarding that photo first photo of Angelina - but I had found a few other photos which indicate that she can be counted as an 'inverted writer': because I think in all photos she 'points' the ballpoint likewise towards her self (and not away of herself).

I think most of the photos illustrate my observation.

Do you observe that as well?





From Patti - Here it looks like her wrist is curved around somewhat, but you can see she is not writing over the top of her writing. See the dark letter just over her knuckles? She is writing toward herself - maybe that's a whole different style of its own.


From Patti - This looks normal


From Patti - This is also questionable.


From Patti - Looks normal.



From Patti - Wrist is actually bending back rather than curling over the top of the writing.


She does have an interesting writing style, but I don't think it's inverted. See comments between photos.
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Re: Inverted Left Handers - Pres. Obama & Prince William

Post  Patti on Sun May 15, 2011 10:28 pm

What I think is a significant aspect of inverted writing is writing over the top of the script.

Here's another image of Obama writing.



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Re: Inverted Left Handers - Pres. Obama & Prince William

Post  Patti on Sun May 15, 2011 10:34 pm

The reason I think it's called inverted writing is because technically they are writing upsidedown.
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Re: Inverted Left Handers - Pres. Obama & Prince William

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun May 15, 2011 11:38 pm

Patti wrote:
She does have an interesting writing style, but I don't think it's inverted. See comments between photos.

Well, my thought is that I think there are two 'inverted' writing styles which are both resulting in that the pencil is facing the bottom of the page:

1) The 'hooked' variant, where the wrist is bended inwards (as seen in the picture below).



2) The 'fist' variant, where the fingers are bended inwards - like in making a fist (as seen in the picture below), and instead of the hooked-wrist (as seen in the first variant) this variant is typically featured with a hooked-elbow.




I recognize how the posture of Angelina's hand relates to this second variant - because my natural writing is related as well - though more like Angelina's posture, and not like in the picture above.

But I always write with my pencil 'inverted' (= directed to myself)... and definitely not in the posture as seen in the 3th example below - which is described as the 'normal' variant because the pencil is directed away from the person.

So, despite that I observe that Angelina's hand sometimes appears to be below the written words... her pencil appears to be pointed towards herself as well.

So I see the difference between Angelina's postured when we compare it with for example Obama, McCain & Netanyahu, because these three men are obviously using the first of the two 'inverted' variants.


However, I also see a clear difference between both variants with the 'normal' writing variant.... when the pencil pointed at the top of the page, as seen in the picture below. So therefore I can not describe Angelina's writing style as just normal.




Finally, one more thought:

Maybe her writing posture belongs to the 'doubtful' category, but despite that I was able to describe 2 'inverted' variants myself ... unfortunately it appears that other researchers never really bothered about those details.

And I haven't seen any detailed definition of what 'inverted writing' really is; the most detailed definition that I have seen so far is the following:

http://molly.kalafut.org/lefthanded/lefthanded.html

"Some left-handers write with their pencil facing the bottom of the page, in a "hooked" position. This is called inverted writing."

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Re: Inverted Left Handers - Pres. Obama & Prince William

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun May 15, 2011 11:50 pm

Patti wrote:The reason I think it's called inverted writing is because technically they are writing upsidedown.

Yes, I agree about that ... in the sense that 'inverted writing' appears to be a matter of how the pen/pencil is hold (normal = away from the body; inverted = toward the body).

But after considering the details, I think the word 'hooked writing variant' is a bit of a confusing synonym... because I noticed that not all 'inverted writing variants' are featured with a hooked-wrist or a hooked-elbow.

So we better continue with the word 'inverted writing', which appears to be a little bit more specific than 'hooked writing'.

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Re: Inverted Left Handers - Pres. Obama & Prince William

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun May 15, 2011 11:59 pm

Patti wrote:...

Have you seen any statistics on females? In my experience I notice they are more likely to be inverted right handers than inverted left handers.

Patti, the first document that I mentioned presents statistics for males and females seperately (see table 1, page 197):
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/medical-education/reprints/1985-CPRR-WritingHandPositionBirthStressFamilialFactors.pdf


Sorry, the study does not confirm you observation:

Because in males (N=617) and in females (N=226) is the percentage of 'inverted writers' about twice as high for the left handers (compared to the right handers).

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Re: Inverted Left Handers - Pres. Obama & Prince William

Post  Patti on Sun May 15, 2011 11:59 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
And I haven't seen any detailed definition of what 'inverted writing' really is; the most detailed definition that I have seen so far is the following:

http://molly.kalafut.org/lefthanded/lefthanded.html

"Some left-handers write with their pencil facing the bottom of the page, in a "hooked" position. This is called inverted writing."[/color]

This article mentions difficult birth and you mentioned the same in an earlier post. I have my doubts that the birthing process would cause a person to be left handed, much less an inverted writer. We've seen images of fetuses sucking their thumbs as soon as they have mouths and thumbs to suck and it's been shown that handedness develops early. Twin studies have shown mirrored handedness.

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Re: Inverted Left Handers - Pres. Obama & Prince William

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon May 16, 2011 12:05 am

Patti wrote:...

I noticed the different reports, too. In your last post you mentioned the comparisons relating to motor skills, or how fast they would write. I saw several reports that said the motor skills were not affected or the study results didn't show much difference between inverted left handers and other hand writing positions.

Yes, I noticed as well that there are some conflicting results presented. Therefore I focussed on the studies that included very large samples (only my 3th example includes a much smaller sample, but I included it as an example because that study reported also a partly confirmation regarding the results earlier studies).

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Re: Inverted Left Handers - Pres. Obama & Prince William

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon May 16, 2011 12:21 am

Patti wrote:
This article mentions difficult birth and you mentioned the same in an earlier post. I have my doubts that the birthing process would cause a person to be left handed, much less an inverted writer. We've seen images of fetuses sucking their thumbs as soon as they have mouths and thumbs to suck and it's been shown that handedness develops early. Twin studies have shown mirrored handedness.

Yes, I agree that it is hard to imagine how these process interact.

By the way... the first report described that 'birth stress' correlates with a LOWER occurence of 'inverted writing'. And 'handedness' is not stable untill the age of 3, and significant changes can even take place a few years before puberty. So any fetal preference can not be taken as a permanent measure.

So, because the patterns in the first study look stable for males & females, plus left-handed groups & right handed groups... combined with the fact that the results relate to considerably large samples... I tend to conclude that the statistics very likely tell a reliable story.


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Re: Inverted Left Handers - Pres. Obama & Prince William

Post  Patti on Mon May 16, 2011 12:27 am

From "Left Brain, Right Brain" Springer & Deutsch



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Re: Inverted Left Handers - Pres. Obama & Prince William

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon May 16, 2011 1:05 am

Patti wrote:From "Left Brain, Right Brain" Springer & Deutsch




Patti, thanks for adding the illustration! Thumbs up!

Unfortunately, I think it doesn't bring us much further.... because I think we know that in practice left handers tend to hold a pen/pencil differently than right handers. But the picture & the comments do not appear to acknowledge that.

However, I just also noticed that in the first study the researchers simply asked to pick one of the 4 examples as representing their writing position.


If I was asked to choose, I would definitely choose the lower left example.


But I am not sure what Angelina would choose... scratch ... yes, she doesn't use the 'hooked-variant' and yes, her wrist is in the normal position towards the paper; but I still think she could describe herself as using the 'inverted variant' (because of the direction of the ballpoint).



(I think she is somewhere in between, but it is hard to see from the photos in what direction she points here pencil).


Anway, now we at least understand how the results in those studies were 'collected'!!

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Re: Inverted Left Handers - Pres. Obama & Prince William

Post  Patti on Mon May 16, 2011 1:26 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti, thanks for adding the illustration! Thumbs up!

Unfortunately, I think it doesn't bring us much further.... because I think we know that in practice left handers tend to hold a pen/pencil differently than right handers. But the picture & the comments do not appear to acknowledge that.

However, I just also noticed that in the first study the researchers simply asked to pick one of the 4 examples as representing their writing position.

If I was asked to choose, I would definitely choose the lower left example. But I am not sure what Angelina would choose... scratch

(I think she is somewhere in between, but it is hard to see from the photos in what direction she points here pencil).


Anway, now we at least understand how the results in those studies were 'collected'!!

In the 4 images there is also a difference in the angle of the paper as they write.

We're looking at several factors; aiming pen downward, slant of paper, curve of wrist and writing over or below line of writing.

In my opinion, I think writing over the top of the writing is the key factor.

Trying to write inverted (like Obama) my writing is difficult and I have to think about forming my letters. Aiming my pen downwards is nearly as easy as my normal style but results in a vertical form of handwriting.

In the image you uploaded of the guy using a fist like grip it wasn't clear that he was writing over the top of the writing. His hand appeared to be moving horizontally across the script, yet the pen aiming downwards slightly gave the appearance of the pen being held in such a way to be writing from the top.

In the one study they did eliminate 1/3 of the group as questionable, they probably should have categorized them in some way.



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Re: Inverted Left Handers - Pres. Obama & Prince William

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon May 16, 2011 1:57 am

Patti wrote:
In the 4 images there is also a difference in the angle of the paper as they write.

We're looking at several factors; aiming pen downward, slant of paper, curve of wrist and writing over or below line of writing.

In my opinion, I think writing over the top of the writing is the key factor.

...

Patti, then we do agree that there are multiple aspects involved in the pictures... but I don't understand what you exactly mean with "writing over the top".

I think the word 'inverted' simply refers to how the pen is hold.


However, the 1976 authors Levy & Reid have described the 'hooked' aspect as essential:

"From our observations more than 90 percent can be clearly defined as adopting either the "hooked" position, in which the hand lies above the line of writing; or the common right handed position in which the hand lies below the line of writing."

Taken from the last page in this document:
http://www.math.pitt.edu/~bard/classes/mth3380/cicada_hi.pdf


Angelina Jolie probably does not belong to those 90 percent... because her claw-like posture can be used BELOW the line of writing, but also ABOVE or AT the line of writing. In the example below we can see that her hand is AT the line of writing (and her wrist is appears to be at the lower side of the paper).




Maybe... 'signing autographs' is not exactly like writing... because 'signing autographs' can become something like 'painting' instead... of 'writing'!

A picture of Angelina Jolie featured with her ... 'autograph'... Hopeless



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Re: Inverted Left Handers - Pres. Obama & Prince William

Post  Patti on Mon May 16, 2011 2:07 am

When I say "over the top of the writing" I'm describing the same as "in which the hand lies above the line of writing".
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Re: Inverted Left Handers - Pres. Obama & Prince William

Post  Patti on Mon May 16, 2011 2:25 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Angelina Jolie probably does not belong to those 90 percent... because her claw-like posture can be used BELOW the line of writing, but also ABOVE or AT the line of writing. In the example below we can see that her hand is AT the line of writing (and her wrist is appears to be at the lower side of the paper).




Maybe... 'signing autographs' is not exactly like writing... because 'signing autographs' can become something like 'painting' instead... of 'writing'!

A picture of Angelina Jolie featured with her ... 'autograph'... Hopeless


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It does look like Angelina has a very flexible grip on the pen. Very angular and illegible signature. The g, e, and l are interesting, is the 'e' reversed or missing?

Now we'll need to look at photos of famous left handed artists at work. Laughing

I think you just like looking at photos of Angelina Jolie Wink
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Re: Inverted Left Handers - Pres. Obama & Prince William

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon May 16, 2011 2:32 am

Patti wrote:When I say "over the top of the writing" I'm describing the same as "in which the hand lies above the line of writing".

Okay, yes... that makes sense.

But I still think that it is basically all a matter of how the 'pen' is hold... because even when a hand comes from the side ('hooked' or 'not hooked') that still can result in a relatively normal position below the writing line, etc. etc.

(The details in the pictures describe the 'typical' details... but in practice there are quite a few variations possible, so since the participants were asked to make a rating for themselves... the result might even depend on the vocabulary used describing the task is formulated; but since it is a 'writing' related task... it would make sense to ask the subjects to describe how they hold their pen/pencil/ballpoint... instead of asking about their "writing position" - as described in the first McManus study from 1985 that I mentioned)


Okay... I better withdraw Angelina Jolie as a 'typical' example. Though her photos became very helpful for me to understand what the issue of 'inverted writing' really implicates.


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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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