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Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  sv-b on Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:27 am

Hello lynn, Smile

Sorry lynn,Thats a most hilarious one when christopher jones(?-i am not sure) termed it as 'western esoteric tradition'. Infact it is worse than non-sense. I dont know - western particularly include which tradition- . I suggest you and christopher jones to learn the history of english language from Wikepedia link. You can find that the english language derived from greek and latin hardly just 1000years back. can you mention that which period is said to be the esoteric western tradition. you can find the greek philosopher, who explain 4 or 5 natural elements, were lived around the period of 500-300b.c. Where as we have records of palmistry and astrology 2000b.c in india. I also searching for the sanskrit and tamil literature where the 5 elements explained at first. In this search, mahabharatha text is being leading and most ancient one in my knowledge. Those events were happened 3108 b.c. In this text and other sanskrit and tamil texts , we could find the devotion of fire god, air god, rain god prevail. However, As concern by your link, there is no existence of 5 element cheirology- and that is nothing more than 'copy of existing palmistry'. secondly, The mother land of buddhism is india. Their religious texts and contents of their ideas are originated from sanskrit language and hinduism. Hope, you can find where the idea of 5 elements originated in this world very first through googling. If there is no 5 element cheirology system exist, we cannot formulate principle of palmistry by relying on this system. your opinions and evidences are welcomed for the further investigation as well Smile


Last edited by stalin.v on Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  sv-b on Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:39 am



Martijn (admin) wrote:
stalin.v wrote:...

2. If you aware of the futility of embryology in this discussion, why do we need such study?

Hi stalin,

Actually, I described why I think that the 'embryology' is actually an important element in this discussion... because it shows how the fundamental relationships between the elements of the hand.

(And I think that describing these relationships could very well be a necessary step in order to understand the nature of the indivual elements properly)


So, I have no idea why you started suggesting that I was talking about the 'futility' of embryology in this discussion.

Stalin, I only mentioned that embryology itself does not describe the principle of palmistry, but that does not exclude embryology from playing a key-rol in describing how in the hand "structure is the intimate expression of function".

I hope this now will make sense for you as well....!!!?

Hello martijn, Smile

It does make no sense! can you explain how you would like to relate the elements with the embryological studies. Smile What do you mean elements, in your last post? Smile


Last edited by stalin.v on Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:43 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:40 am

stalin.v wrote:Hello martijn, Smile

1. I dont want to talk exclusively about palm lines in this discussion. Rather i look for the all grounds of palmistry and it's principles .

... And yes Stalin, I have understood that you are interested in all aspects of the hand... however, I also notice that you prefer to consider them in isolation from eachother.

So, I think you are trying to formulate 'the principle of palmistry' by considering all elements seperately (lines, fingers, fingerprints, etc.).

My point is... you are attributing probably too much value to the indivual elements. And my alternative suggestion is: to consider them as 'one system' (build by various 'sub-systems': the lines, finger, fingerprints, etc.).


Don't you think that this could be an interesting approach to proceed in finding answers to your question?

wave

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  sv-b on Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:47 am

Hello Martijn. Smile

But so far we dont have answer for not even a single feature of hand in search of its principle. so i dont have problem if you combined it or separated each. Smile

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  Lynn on Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:44 pm

stalin.v wrote:Hello lynn, Smile

Sorry lynn,Thats a most hilarious one when christopher jones(?-i am not sure) termed it as 'western esoteric tradition'. Infact it is worse than non-sense. I dont know - western particularly include which tradition- . I suggest you and christopher jones to learn the history of english language from Wikepedia link. You can find that the english language derived from greek and latin hardly just 1000years back. can you mention that which period is said to be the esoteric western tradition. you can find the greek philosopher, who explain 4 or 5 natural elements, were lived around the period of 500-300b.c. Where as we have records of palmistry and astrology 2000b.c in india. I also searching for the sanskrit and tamil literature where the 5 elements explained at first. In this search, mahabharatha text is being leading and most ancient one in my knowledge. Those events were happened 3108 b.c. In this text and other sanskrit and tamil texts , we could find the devotion of fire god, air god, rain god prevail. However, As concern by your link, there is no existence of 5 element cheirology- and that is nothing more than 'copy of existing palmistry'. secondly, The mother land of buddhism is india. Their religious texts and contents of their ideas are originated from sanskrit language and hinduism. Hope, you can find where the idea of 5 elements originated in this world very first through googling. If there is no 5 element cheirology system exist, we cannot formulate principle of palmistry by relying on this system. your opinions and evidences are welcomed for the further investigation as well Smile

stalin it was on Christopher Jones' website but that page was from letters & essays of Andrew Fitzherbert. Five element chirology is not a copy of existing palmistry - existing palmistry was not based on the elements! Regarding Western esoteric beliefs, you also can research that online. Many traditions used the 5 elements earth, water,fire, air, ether. People have always worshipped nature.

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  sv-b on Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:59 pm

Thanks lynn, Smile

Yes, it is true . . but, the elements varies from the country to country... like i said about how chinese varied with the real elements which was followed by indians. . . But my point was who invented the classic natural 5 elements first..

but the link given by you describes that 5 element cheirology was copied from the existing palmistry. . . i would like to know which country or tradition introduced this idea to the world first as we could find differences of opinion in this . . . Smile

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:18 pm

stalin.v wrote:Hello Martijn. Smile

But so far we dont have answer for not even a single feature of hand in search of its principle. so i dont have problem if you combined it or separated each. Smile

Okay stalin, sounds great... I will get back on this topic later - after thinking about the nex step / next proposal for finging answers.

Thanks!

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  Lynn on Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:42 am

stalin.v wrote:Thanks lynn, Smile

Yes, it is true . . but, the elements varies from the country to country... like i said about how chinese varied with the real elements which was followed by indians. . . But my point was who invented the classic natural 5 elements first..

but the link given by you describes that 5 element cheirology was copied from the existing palmistry. . . i would like to know which country or tradition introduced this idea to the world first as we could find differences of opinion in this . . . Smile

hi stalin,
Earth, water, fire, air, ether have been used in many traditions, eg read on wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element

It doesn't say that 5 element chirology was copied from existing palmistry. It says that it has a basis in many of the teachings and ideas from Western Palmistry, expressed through the language of the four elements earth, water, fire, air. The first palmistry book to use these elements is the work of Fred Gettings 'The Book of the Hand', published in 1965. Dukes developed these ideas but made false claims that it was based on some ancient secret Wu-Hsing Chinese Buddhist tradition. (but as you said, the Chinese or taoist elements are wood, fire, earth, metal & water.)


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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  Patti on Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:30 am

stalin.v wrote:
Hello patti, Smile

can you tell me the relation between rats and human? It is the idiocy of modern science whenever they try to experiment on animals and relate the result with humans. Especially this type of mistake produce grave danger to the humanity. When the pharmacist introduce a medicine, first he experiment it in animals like rat, goat etc., According to the limits of side effects , it comes to the medical business later. For sure, many of the animals immune to the poison which is lethal to human. This is the reason why many medicines are been banned by medical profession after it's prolonged use among humans. They always learn things too late which causes innumeral artificial diseases and death. patti, it need careful views before you enter into like this kind of discussion.

stalin.v wrote:
Discussion copied over from the other thread:
http://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t35p45-fourth-phalange-on-my-little-finger#8890


Hello patti, Smile

Nice to know that your preference is mostly on "why"?

I have few questions for you.

1. why we humans have dermatoglypics, apart from one of the naturalistic reasoning of shock absorption?

2. Why do we have palmar crease, apart from the naturalistic reasoning of comfortable flexion and extension of palm and finger joints?

3. why do we all have different patterns of palm lines and dermatoglypics, which has no scientific reasoning so far, nor genetic tendencies were present?

4. Why do peoples of modern science like anatomy , physiology , neurology , embryology, genetics , forensic experts, refuse to accept the viewpoints of palmistry, eschews the palm readers , and looking at palmists as a entertainers?

5. Why do, so called , modern palmists, all the time looking the ideas of science although they neglect the idea of prediction and character reading through hands?

6. why do some palmists , try to get supports from the statistics results of science, for it's recognition?

7. Why do all knowing medical science have no evidence to support palmistry?

8. Do we have something immaterial dynamic force in us, which rules the organism unbounded sway? if yes, how the materialistic science can answer the immaterial forces of human?

9. is there any connection between materialism and idealism? if yes , what is that?

10. Do philosophical understandings require for understanding palmistry?

Hi patti, i expect answer from you for above 10 questions. if time does not permit , then make your answer brief.

Because, Unless we are clear in the principle of palmistry, we can be only circling around in our discussion without any scope of solution and end. Smile

lol! I guess you forgot that you originally initiated this thread to engage me in discussion.



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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  sv-b on Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:44 am

Lynn wrote:
stalin.v wrote:Thanks lynn, Smile

Yes, it is true . . but, the elements varies from the country to country... like i said about how chinese varied with the real elements which was followed by indians. . . But my point was who invented the classic natural 5 elements first..

but the link given by you describes that 5 element cheirology was copied from the existing palmistry. . . i would like to know which country or tradition introduced this idea to the world first as we could find differences of opinion in this . . . Smile

hi stalin,
Earth, water, fire, air, ether have been used in many traditions, eg read on wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element

It doesn't say that 5 element chirology was copied from existing palmistry. It says that it has a basis in many of the teachings and ideas from Western Palmistry, expressed through the language of the four elements earth, water, fire, air. The first palmistry book to use these elements is the work of Fred Gettings 'The Book of the Hand', published in 1965. Dukes developed these ideas but made false claims that it was based on some ancient secret Wu-Hsing Chinese Buddhist tradition. (but as you said, the Chinese or taoist elements are wood, fire, earth, metal & water.)



I HAVE two question for you. . .

Why a founder of particular system of abstract science want to credit the ancients by lieing. . . i dont think , it is true. . . The prevelance and usage of 5elements categorization continue since ancient period, and he claim that it began from asia. but, you claim that it is from western. . western means which country or tradition lynn? do you have proof for such claim? is fred alive still? Smile

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  Lynn on Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:21 am

stalin.v wrote:I HAVE two question for you. . .

Why a founder of particular system of abstract science want to credit the ancients by lieing. . . i dont think , it is true. . . The prevelance and usage of 5elements categorization continue since ancient period, and he claim that it began from asia. but, you claim that it is from western. . western means which country or tradition lynn? do you have proof for such claim? is fred alive still? Smile

hi stalin, I haven't claimed anything! I quoted from the Fitzherbert letters. It's difficult to find the truth of where Terry Dukes got his ideas because he lied about a lot of things. As far as I am aware the earliest palmistry book to classify hands via the elements is Fred Gettings in 1965. If you know any earlier books that use the elements as symbolism for the parts of the hand, please let me know. I don't think Fred is still alive. You can read about western esotericism on wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_esotericism

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  sv-b on Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:01 pm

Lynn wrote:
stalin.v wrote:I HAVE two question for you. . .

Why a founder of particular system of abstract science want to credit the ancients by lieing. . . i dont think , it is true. . . The prevelance and usage of 5elements categorization continue since ancient period, and he claim that it began from asia. but, you claim that it is from western. . western means which country or tradition lynn? do you have proof for such claim? is fred alive still? Smile

hi stalin, I haven't claimed anything! I quoted from the Fitzherbert letters. It's difficult to find the truth of where Terry Dukes got his ideas because he lied about a lot of things. As far as I am aware the earliest palmistry book to classify hands via the elements is Fred Gettings in 1965. If you know any earlier books that use the elements as symbolism for the parts of the hand, please let me know. I don't think Fred is still alive. You can read about western esotericism on wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_esotericism

1. Quotes of last century author has no supportive evidence. Therefore, what would be the reliability of that content?

2. your link to the 'western esoterics' shows that they have no knowledge on palmistry and 5 elements as we could find no such evidence from that link Smile

am i right lynn ?

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  Lynn on Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:00 pm

stalin.v wrote:1. Quotes of last century author has no supportive evidence. Therefore, what would be the reliability of that content?

2. your link to the 'western esoterics' shows that they have no knowledge on palmistry and 5 elements as we could find no such evidence from that link Smile

am i right lynn ?

1. which author? supportive evidence for what?
2. They used the elements but not in relation to palmistry.

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  sv-b on Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:32 pm

Lynn wrote:
stalin.v wrote:1. Quotes of last century author has no supportive evidence. Therefore, what would be the reliability of that content?

2. your link to the 'western esoterics' shows that they have no knowledge on palmistry and 5 elements as we could find no such evidence from that link Smile

am i right lynn ?

1. which author? supportive evidence for what?
2. They used the elements but not in relation to palmistry.

1. I am talking about fitzerbert letter, where he claims that the idea of 5 element cheirology is based on western esoterics. but western esoterics seems to have no knowledge on palmistry as concern by your wiki link. so, the letter of fitzenbert is also seemed to containing false statements and lies as it does not have any supportive evidence.

2. If the western esoterics has not related the 5 elements with palmistry, fitzenbert's claim become lie. (so, 5 element cheirology was not followed by western esoterics either). can you also mention , for what purposes . western esoterics used 5 elements? Smile

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  Lynn on Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:29 am

stalin.v wrote:1. I am talking about fitzerbert letter, where he claims that the idea of 5 element cheirology is based on western esoterics. but western esoterics seems to have no knowledge on palmistry as concern by your wiki link. so, the letter of fitzenbert is also seemed to containing false statements and lies as it does not have any supportive evidence.

2. If the western esoterics has not related the 5 elements with palmistry, fitzenbert's claim become lie. (so, 5 element cheirology was not followed by western esoterics either). can you also mention , for what purposes . western esoterics used 5 elements? Smile

Thanks for clarification stalin. I think maybe you misunderstood. (?) I don't see anything in Andrew Fitzherbert's claim that is a lie. Terry Dukes was the one who lied about many things. (e.g claims to have studied in a Japanese Buddhist monastery at a time when he was in fact in England).

Andrew is saying that the 5 elements earth, water, fire, air, ether is based on the western view of the elements as opposed to what he says here "Hundreds of books on Chinese culture exist, all of which confirm that the Chinese recognise five elements: earth, water, fire, wood and metal." (which you already confirmed).
Western esoterics used the 'earth, water, fire, air,' elements, not 'wood & metal'.
So he is talking just about the elements, not the elements in hand analysis.
(edit - PS - Fred Gettings was a student of western esotericism, and he is the one who first used the classic 5 elements in the hand)

sorry stalin I know almost nothing about Hermeticism, Gnostisim, etc etc. The 'earth, water,fire, air' elements are used in astrology, tarot, paganism, etc.




Last edited by Lynn on Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:43 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  Lynn on Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:33 am

Patti wrote: lol! I guess you forgot that you originally initiated this thread to engage me in discussion.

Thanks for reminding us Patti! Yes, this thread has diversified so much that I forgot what the original post was about!
Not sure what points you are trying to make stalin, or exactly what info you are trying to find. confused Laughing

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  sv-b on Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:02 am

Lynn wrote:
stalin.v wrote:1. I am talking about fitzerbert letter, where he claims that the idea of 5 element cheirology is based on western esoterics. but western esoterics seems to have no knowledge on palmistry as concern by your wiki link. so, the letter of fitzenbert is also seemed to containing false statements and lies as it does not have any supportive evidence.

2. If the western esoterics has not related the 5 elements with palmistry, fitzenbert's claim become lie. (so, 5 element cheirology was not followed by western esoterics either). can you also mention , for what purposes . western esoterics used 5 elements? Smile

Thanks for clarification stalin. I think maybe you misunderstood. (?) I don't see anything in Andrew Fitzherbert's claim that is a lie. Terry Dukes was the one who lied about many things. (e.g claims to have studied in a Japanese Buddhist monastery at a time when he was in fact in England).

Andrew is saying that the 5 elements earth, water, fire, air, ether is based on the western view of the elements as opposed to what he says here "Hundreds of books on Chinese culture exist, all of which confirm that the Chinese recognise five elements: earth, water, fire, wood and metal." (which you already confirmed).
Western esoterics used the 'earth, water, fire, air,' elements, not 'wood & metal'.
So he is talking just about the elements, not the elements in hand analysis.
(edit - PS - Fred Gettings was a student of western esotericism, and he is the one who first used the classic 5 elements in the hand)

sorry stalin I know almost nothing about Hermeticism, Gnostisim, etc etc. The 'earth, water,fire, air' elements are used in astrology, tarot, paganism, etc.



1. Do fitzherbert say that 5 element cheirology got it's fundamental from western esoterics? if so, where is the supportive proof for that? it seems that fitzherbert's letter was based on his own assumption than evidential as he has no proof for his claim. so, i say, not only terry duke lies, but the statement of fitzherbert in his letter remain lie as it doesnt has evidence.

2. I wonder what is the influence of western esotericts on western palmistry? because, From the wiki link, we see that western esoterics was not knowing about palmistry. so, what would be the influence of western esoterics on western palmistry? I also would like to know 'what is the time scale of western palmistry, to understand the influences?' Smile

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  sv-b on Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:59 pm

Lynn wrote:
Patti wrote: lol! I guess you forgot that you originally initiated this thread to engage me in discussion.

Thanks for reminding us Patti! Yes, this thread has diversified so much that I forgot what the original post was about!
Not sure what points you are trying to make stalin, or exactly what info you are trying to find. confused Laughing

Hello lynn and patti, Smile

I Hope,The title of this discussion, is directly demonstrate my intention. In this process of our discussion , Martijn and patti was trying to explain the 'principle of palmistry' at the point of embryology. But needless to say that how the embryological studies fail to individualize the humans, and represents only the generalized views. This way i explained the futility of embryology and how it fails to explain the 'principle of palmistry', and also explained the limitations of embryology for the same. And Embryologically, so far we have not proved the principle of single feature of palm in this whole discussion .

Lynn, As you are interested to explain the principle of palmistry via 5 element cheirology, we try to find the origin of this idea. In this process, we noticed that how the Terry dukes ideas on explaining the origin of 5 element cheirology is been contructed based on bias. similarly, Fitzherbert's letter too has no evidence for his claim of western esoteric influence. Infact, The origin of 5 element cheirology is questionable but need to be known for explaining the principle of palmistry. Because, Unless we know the origin of 5 element cheirology, we wont be knowing that what sort of traditional philosophy was been used to construct the principle of 5 element cheirology? Hope, you can understand why we discuss all aspects now. . . Smile

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  Patti on Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:39 pm

Hi Stalin,
I do not see where you have shown that embryology does not relate to the foundation of the hand that we are using in palmistry systems.

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  sv-b on Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:48 pm

Patti wrote:Hi Stalin,
I do not see where you have shown that embryology does not relate to the foundation of the hand that we are using in palmistry systems.

Hello patti, Smile

Anybody can relate the anatomical foundation of hand via embryology. But, i wish to know how you would relate embryology and hand reading. If at all i give you a example, it will remain endless discussion. so i start with example. Let we take the position of head line as an example. . .

If a head line leans to moon mount, we interpret it as 'imagination power'. could you explain me how we can relate the fundamental of this interpretation with embryological studies.

Note: I already said many times that embryological studies never individualize human. Thats simply explain how it does not help us for framing principle of palmistry . If you have further question, feel free to ask me. Smile

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  Patti on Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:54 pm

stalin.v wrote: If a head line leans to moon mount, we interpret it as 'imagination power'. could you explain me how we can relate the fundamental of this interpretation with embryological studies.

Your question implies that there is proof that "a head line leans to moon mount" absolutely means "imagination power".

If there were proof that a particular type of head line formation absolutely relates to 'imagination power' then how that head line was formed initially versus a head line that doesn't relate to 'imagination power' forms, would be significant.


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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  sv-b on Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:06 pm

Patti wrote:
stalin.v wrote: If a head line leans to moon mount, we interpret it as 'imagination power'. could you explain me how we can relate the fundamental of this interpretation with embryological studies.

Your question implies that there is proof that "a head line leans to moon mount" absolutely means "imagination power".

If there were proof that a particular type of head line formation absolutely relates to 'imagination power' then how that head line was formed initially versus a head line that doesn't relate to 'imagination power' forms, would be significant.


Hello patti, Smile

Ha Ha. .
Principles are made to prove our theories. But, we must remember here, principle comes first. Later, theories are been constructed based on the principle. If we have theories without principles, that remains unscientific. These theories (meaning of palm features which are explained in palmistry books ) were not made by statistic results. Rather The meaning of palm features, which are explained in palmistry books were learned by the indian palmistry disciples like cheiro and other palmistry authors and then we learn it via their books . dont you agree? do you believe now that you can prove the principle of palmistry via embryology? Smile Let the absolute interpretation of any feature of palm remain upto your knowledge. But can you prove at least such any single feature of palm by any principle which you know? Smile


Last edited by stalin.v on Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  Patti on Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:07 pm

stalin.v wrote:
Patti wrote:
stalin.v wrote: If a head line leans to moon mount, we interpret it as 'imagination power'. could you explain me how we can relate the fundamental of this interpretation with embryological studies.

Your question implies that there is proof that "a head line leans to moon mount" absolutely means "imagination power".

If there were proof that a particular type of head line formation absolutely relates to 'imagination power' then how that head line was formed initially versus a head line that doesn't relate to 'imagination power' forms, would be significant.


Hello patti, Smile

Ha Ha. .
Principles are made to prove our theories. If we have theories without principles, that remains unscientific. These theories were not made by statistics result. Rather learned by the indian palmistry disciples like cheiro and other palmistry authors and taught to us via their books . dont you agree? do you believe now that you can prove the principle of palmistry via embryology? Smile Let the absolute interpretation of any feature of palm remain upto your knowledge. But what so ever means can you prove at least such one feature of palm by any principle which you know? Smile

Yes, the theory that a certain type of head line shows imagination, needs to have some kind of evidence before it's considered more than just a theory.

Because 'someone said so' isn't enough.

If there is proof that a certain type of head line relates to a certain limited type of behavior or thinking ability, I do truly believe that it can be biologically explained. If that behavior could be proven to exist at birth, then embryology is one way to understand the connection between the behavior and the hand feature.

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  Lynn on Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:10 pm

stalin.v wrote:
1. Do fitzherbert say that 5 element cheirology got it's fundamental from western esoterics? if so, where is the supportive proof for that? it seems that fitzherbert's letter was based on his own assumption than evidential as he has no proof for his claim. so, i say, not only terry duke lies, but the statement of fitzherbert in his letter remain lie as it doesnt has evidence.

2. I wonder what is the influence of western esotericts on western palmistry? because, From the wiki link, we see that western esoterics was not knowing about palmistry. so, what would be the influence of western esoterics on western palmistry? I also would like to know 'what is the time scale of western palmistry, to understand the influences?' Smile

Lynn, As you are interested to explain the principle of palmistry via 5 element cheirology, we try to find the origin of this idea. In this process, we noticed that how the Terry dukes ideas on explaining the origin of 5 element cheirology is been contructed based on bias. similarly, Fitzherbert's letter too has no evidence for his claim of western esoteric influence. Infact, The origin of 5 element cheirology is questionable but need to be known for explaining the principle of palmistry. Because, Unless we know the origin of 5 element cheirology, we wont be knowing that what sort of traditional philosophy was been used to construct the principle of 5 element cheirology? Hope, you can understand why we discuss all aspects now. .

stalin you seem to be making this more complicated than it really is.

1. No. Fitzherbert is simply saying that the elements used in 5-element chirology are the same ones that are used in western esotericism. ie earth, water, fire, air, ether. As opposed to the Chinese earth, water, fire, wood and metal - which were not used in western esoterics.

2. The wiki link does not tell us that western esoterics did not study palmistry. The list of subjects they studied says "This includes, but is not limited to alchemy, theosophy, ....astrology etc etc". But in a way it is not important whether they studied it or not, if you are looking for the origins of 5 element chirology. So far the only books we know about 5 element chirology are Fred Gettings initial ideas about hand shape (with some line qualities etc) and Terry Dukes "Chinese hand Analysis". They are the origins of the 5 element chirology system.

The philosophy of it is based on the principles of the elements in nature.



Last edited by Lynn on Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:33 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  Patti on Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:26 pm

stalin.v wrote: These theories (meaning of palm features which are explained in palmistry books ) were not made by statistic results. Rather The meaning of palm features, which are explained in palmistry books were learned by the indian palmistry disciples like cheiro and other palmistry authors and then we learn it via their books . dont you agree?

Not all authors are in agreement with their interpretations and meanings.

I'm certainly not in agreement with all authors. To date, I haven't seen a single book that I can say I agree wholeheartedly with everything written. Yet, most are filled with useful information for comparison purposes.

Are you trying to point out that your interpretation of the 'principles of palmistry' originated in India? Or, are you pointing out that some palmists base their sources of information on writers whose source of palmistry information was from India?

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