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How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease!

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How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 6 Empty Re: How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue May 31, 2011 3:43 pm

Lynn wrote:
This has confused me from the start. Six months ago on the thread where you introduced the Suwon crease, I said
" I don't understand why they are classing main headline as an accessory. ie why it is 'accessory II' as opposed to (main) II "

re great to see that you were able to confirm that there indeed was a (small) mistake in your words.
erm,,, Did I confirm this? What mistake did I make in my words?
yes I am seriously confused!

Lynn, if you simply adopt the recommendation that I described for the formulas... your problem regarding how to apply the 'length' critirium is immediately solved.

I hope you will try... and report the result!

'Simples'!


PS. Yes, I see that you probably have not yet recognize how by applying the vocabulary presented by the researchers for the 'length' criterium (quotes from figur 5C):

"(C): III is accompanied by accessory palm creases which are parallel and more than half of the III length."

...directly made you write the following sentence:

"This defintion of accessory variant regarding crease III, implies that accessory II will also be parallel and more than half the length of II"


But it is crucial to notice here that figure 5C only mentions 'accessory palm creases' in the perspective of a NORMAL crease; and therefore I explained why in the perspective of the Suwon crease this criterium really has to be 'transformed'!

Because it would be 'unintelligent' to apply this criterium litterally to how the researchers defined the Suwon crease, because obiously, in their definition of the Suwon crease the 'accessory II' IS the NORMAL head line... and formally it can not be described as an 'accessory palm crease' at all, because it IS the NORMAL crease!


Please? Again, Lynn... my proposal solves your problem (+ your confusion) permanently!


___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue May 31, 2011 4:06 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
We all did discuss this aspect from the very beginning and complained that a somewhat normal DTC or PTC should be labelled as Accessory.

...
Sorry, I don't remember you complaining about that aspect at all.
And I am wonderingl... who is the 'we'?


What I remember was that everybody - including myself - experienced problems in understanding what the Korean researchers had described in their article, and those problems related to both their words and their pictures.

I answered you here:

http://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t199p225-report-korean-researchers-discovered-the-suwon-crease-only-observed-in-males#9181

Thanks! - Then my 'proposal' also solves your earlier complaint ... Thanks!

By the way, regarding the comment that was posted by Lynn, that is only one of the many issues that she wondered about ... I can hardly call that a complaint


Anyway, I think I have described in my earlier posts why it is NECESSARY to 'correct' this minor issue in the vocabulary used by the Korean authors... in order to solve multiple problems all at once.

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
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Post  Lynn on Tue May 31, 2011 4:17 pm

Martijn, You previously said that I think we better simply focuss on the facts as described in the article,.........
Any 'argument' that moves away from those facts as presented in the article... can fairly be described as a speculative 'opion'.


Yet now you are saying that we need to transform something that they said. Is that a speculative opinion??

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How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 6 Empty Re: How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue May 31, 2011 4:27 pm

Lynn wrote:Martijn, You previously said that I think we better simply focuss on the facts as described in the article,.........
Any 'argument' that moves away from those facts as presented in the article... can fairly be described as a speculative 'opion'.


Yet now you are saying that we need to transform something that they said. Is that a speculative opinion??

Lynn, this sounds like a 'rethoric question' only

(EDIT: Regarding the comment that you are referring to, I made that comment in the perspective of the fact that Patti had started making considerations which went far beyond the contents of the article... and meanwhile she was not even willing to acknowledge the relevance of the criteria described in the article, specified to the guideline for figure 5c).


Remember... what is relevant here is that we all experienced at least some problems with that the researcher described as normal head line as 'accessory II'.


And don't you think that it would be a very sensible choice... if we can agree on the implications of my suggestion... to simply adopt that suggestion, especially since it solves multiple problems at once!

The picture below would then be the result... and it would be quite 'stupid move' (I have never used this word before)... to disqualify this 'formal' improvement - solely with 'rethorics'!


So, I observe that your 'rethoric question' might not be relevant here.
Does this make sense?

Very Happy

PS. You can study the details in this new picture by clicking here:
https://i.servimg.com/u/f25/15/45/02/10/common12.jpg

How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 6 Common12

___________________________________________
sunny

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Post  Lynn on Tue May 31, 2011 4:40 pm

Yes it makes sense to change it. All along I have not understood why they used their temrinology "accessory II" for main headline. I / we always thought that the main headline should be II and the part joined to the heartline should be accessory II.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue May 31, 2011 4:55 pm

Lynn wrote:Yes it makes sense to change it. All along I have not understood why they used their temrinology "accessory II" for main headline. I / we always thought that the main headline should be II and the part joined to the heartline should be accessory II.

Okay, nice to hear that you recognize how my proposal makes sense.

But more important... do you also recognize that your problem (related to how to apply the length criterium as described by figure 5C, to the Suwon crease) is solved by my proposal?


(Because then it becomes obvious that the 'length' criterium should only be directly applied to the 'II'-part of the 'II+II' crease... assuming of course that the normal head line requires to have enough length as well; for otherwise one could possibly speak of a simian line variant featured with a small 'ulnar-snippet' of the head line that is fused with the heart line)

___________________________________________
sunny

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Post  Patti on Tue May 31, 2011 4:58 pm

rolling on the floor

I'll leave you two to develop the "VanMensvoort Improved Analysis of Palm Creases" My video crew is heading over to continue work on my presentation for the IBMBS presentation and I need to give that my undivided attention for a while.
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Post  Lynn on Tue May 31, 2011 5:36 pm

Yes Martijn I recognise how it makes the length requirement more sensible.

However in making these changes, we are using a different vocabulary to the researchers. I feel sure that normally you would never advocate doing such a thing!
It could even make the discussion more complicated (eg in instances when talking about accessory crease II - are we discussing your new definition or the researchers definition.)

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Post  Lynn on Tue May 31, 2011 5:37 pm

Patti wrote: rolling on the floor

I'll leave you two to develop the "VanMensvoort Improved Analysis of Palm Creases"

rolling on the floor

Good luck with your video presentation Patti, hope it goes well. Thumbs up!

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue May 31, 2011 6:45 pm

Lynn wrote:Yes Martijn I recognise how it makes the length requirement more sensible.

However in making these changes, we are using a different vocabulary to the researchers. I feel sure that normally you would never advocate doing such a thing!
It could even make the discussion more complicated (eg in instances when talking about accessory crease II - are we discussing your new definition or the researchers definition.)

Okay Lynn, thanks again for your feedback.


Yes you are right... I would not advocate such a thing easily. But I am not really introducing a 'different vocabulary': because if the researchers had not used the word 'accessory' in their two examples for the Sydney line and Suwon crease, I think we would not have been confronted with this problem at all.

Because in their writtings they only speak an: "... accessory II", which could be read as a '... a second II'; but we - in our discussions - started talking about 'accessory II', while the researcher have not done that explicitely.

Afterall, it tooks us about 9 months to find the clues provides in figure 5C... and some of us have read the details in the article over-and-over again (I am thinking about Patti).

So, I think we should make the Korean article more important than it really is. Their name 'accessory II' for a normal head line, and 'accessory III' for a normal head line... could easily be described as a servious fundamental mistake in their vocabulary... and I think this explains why their definition of the Suwon crease is so confusing... that some of use here think that they are observing Suwon creases in many hands (I am not only thining about Patti, others have also presented examples of relatively common hand line variants... which they assumed that it could include a Suwon crease).


Therefore...

For me, after being confronted with the problem that you described earlier today - directly resulting from their guidelines for the accessory crease in fig.5C - I could even speak about a CLEAR 'contradiction' in the Korean guidelines.


And after saying this... I can also report a few other 'contradictions' in how they presented their materials:

- Because by fact, in figure 3 they have defined the Sydney line as: 'II+III' plus accessory III, illustrated with a picture which shows a Sydney line compose by two line parts which each clearly have a different structure.
- But in figure 4 they have presented their no.1. Sydney variant as just one 'extended head line'. It would have made more sense it they had presented their 'Sydney 2' variant as the no.1 variant - because only then that would confirm the Sydney line formula.

(And I could describe a likewise problem regarding their illustration of the simian line: both example in figure 3 and the first Simian line variant in figure 4 do not confirm the formula)


And finally... that they also sort of re-defined the Sydney line in this article: by describing it with the formula:'II+II' plus 'accessory III. They should have mentioned that this concerns a RE-DEFINITION of how a Sydney line can be understood properly.


However, I also would like to add that I really do admire their efforts + their new method.

But unfortunately, from my point of view... after 9 months of discussion their vocabulary has not survived the 'test of time'. Simply because it is rather confusing in how they used the term 'accessory crease' in the perspective of both the Sydney line and the Suwon crease.

Anyway, I will continue to use their method to discriminate a simian line, from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease... but now it no longer makes sense for me to continue using their 'accessory' concept for a normal head line and a normal heat line.

Because obviously, they have followed the classic approach for defining an 'accessory crease' (described in figure 5C)... but then they did have not succeeded to INTEGRATE that classic approach properly in their new concepts for both the Sydney line and the Suwon crease.


Let's hope that, if the Korean re-definitions are adopted in new studies... then we should hope that the researchers will not follow that aspect of their Korean vocabulary.

Anyway, great to know that that my 'proposal' does make sense for you... but I don't expect any new problems. Instead, this actually solves a significant part of the problems that we have been confronted with in our discussions so far!

Thanks!

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue May 31, 2011 7:15 pm


thinking I can present the details of my alternative vocabulary as follows (large version is available here: https://i.servimg.com/u/f25/15/45/02/10/common13.jpg )

How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 6 Common13


The details of the vocabulary can be described as follows:

- A normal hand can simply be described as:

I plus II plus III
(see the picture below)

How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 6 Common14


The three basic 'creases' are (see also the picture above):

I = life line
II = head line
III = heart line

An 'extended transversal crease' could be represented as:

IIx = Sydney line (extended head line - see the left picture below)
IIIx = extened heart line (see the right picture below)

How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 6 Common20 How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 6 Common17


An 'accessory major crease' can be represented as:

Ia = accessory life line
IIa = accessory head line
IIIa = accessory heart line.

And an 'interrupted major crease' can be represented as:

Ia1b = interrupted life line
2a2b = interrupted head line
3a3b = interrupted heart line


And the most 'complex' major crease variants can be summarized as follows:

- simian line (see the left picture below):
II-III

- Sydney line variant 2 (based on the Korean definition of a Sydney line - see the center picture below):
II-IIIa + III

- Suwon crease (based on the Korean definition of a Suwon crease - see also the right picture below):
II + IIa-III

How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 6 Common22 How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 6 Common23 How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 6 Common15


And finally, a few examples to illustrate how this proposal could be applied to any hand:

- A normal hand can simply be described as:
I + II + III

- A hand with an extended heart line can be described as:
I + II + IIIx

- A hand with an Sydney line (= extended head line) can be described as:
I + IIx + III

- A hand with an Sydney line type 2 (= the Korean Sydney line composed by the presence of a second heart line) can be described as:
I + II-IIIa + III

- A hand with a simian line can be described as:
I + II-III

- A hand with a simian line featured with a head line 'snippet' (not connect to the simian line) can be described as:
I + II-III + IIa
- A hand with a simian line featured with a heart line 'snippet' (not connected to the simian line) can be described as:
I + II-III + IIIa


An advanced system, but still: the elements are quite simple... exclusive, and the combinations make sense!

king

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Post  MyshMash on Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:51 pm

I think I may have a suwon line. I have been trying to figure out what this little line meant without luck, but the description of a suwon line looks very much like mine:

How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 6 Imag0011

Am I right? If not, what kind of line might it be?

I will try and post a better picture in daylight tomorrow.

What is the meaning of such a line?

ps. Excuse the henna Smile

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:33 am


Hello MyshMash,

Well... though I would need to be able to study the details regarding the starting points of the head lines + the connection with the heart line, in order to make a permanent assessment....

... via the photo below (I discovered at your 'henna art collection') it appears that the upper head line is connected with your heart line, and it appears that both head lines are not connected with eachother (because they appear to cross your life line at two different locations, and beyond those points I see no connection).

Therefore, if a study of the details would confirm both observations... yes, then I would classify your left hand as a Suwon crease.

Interesting... thanks for posting your hand! Thumb up


PS. It would be interesting to see an impression of your right palm as well, because I would also prefer to be able to see if both observations are not violated by your other hand! (For example, if both head lines are somehow connected, then your hand would not qualify as a Suwon crease... because then one could speak of a 'splitting head line', with the upper branch connecting with the heart line, etc.)


How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 6 5765667885_a93ace445f_b

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sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
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Post  MyshMash on Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:28 am

Thanks Martijn. Here is a photo of my right hand and a close up of the left:

How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 6 Imag0013

How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 6 Imag0014

Any idea what the significance is of a suwon line?

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:01 pm

Thanks MyshMash,

Yes, both pictures confirm earlier observations (though the connection between the upper head line and the heart line is quite weak).

Regarding the meaning of the Suwon crease, so far I have seen in more often in people with high educated people. But there could also be a link with an interest for 'technical' matters, and the orientation might become less focussed on social experiences.

But these are only 'speculative associations'... (based on only about 5 cases).


PS. Please be aware, nobody has researched this line very well. And despite that some palmists (outside this forum) already started sharing their 'ideas' in terms of theoretical interpretations. But I also observed that quite some people experience serious problems to understand the concept of this line properly, so be aware... any speculation about it's meaning could very well be based on a misconception about the requirements for recognizing this line.

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  Patti on Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:18 pm

MyshMash wrote:Thanks Martijn. Here is a photo of my right hand and a close up of the left:

How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 6 Imag0013

How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 6 Imag0014

Any idea what the significance is of a suwon line?

Hi MyshMash,
Yes, I would call it a Suwon crease. The fact that the upper head line is thinning as it reaches the heart line is a confirmation that it is directed from the radial side toward the ulnar.

Your artwork would imply to me that you have flexible hands and excellent fine motor control. Are your thumbs particularly flexible or double jointed?
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Post  MyshMash on Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:02 pm

Hi Patti,

My fingers bend back to a 90 degree angle but I don't have double jointed thumbs.

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How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 6 Empty do others think this is a suwon crease

Post  jeanette on Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:38 am

On page 106 in John Manning's Finger Book It shows the hand of a Brazilian football player and I am sure it is has Suwon crease.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:09 pm

jeanette wrote:On page 106 in John Manning's Finger Book It shows the hand of a Brazilian football player and I am sure it is has Suwon crease.

Well spotted Jeanette! Thumbs up!


PS. Though the picture is unclear about 2 essential points:
- Is the upper head line connected to the heart line?
- And is the upper head line not connected to the life line?

IF the answer to the first question is a 'yes', and IF the answer to the second question a 'no'... then Manning's example can indeed be described as a Suwon crease.

(Unfortunately, we will never know for sure the answers)


How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 6 Brazil10

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Post  jeanette on Sat Jul 02, 2011 2:01 pm

Thanks Martijin for the reply. I know it is unclear but I stared and stared at it and, maybe convinced myself, the answer to the first was yes and the answer to the second no. That is the footballers left hand. Do you know does the suwon crease appear mostly on the left hand. It says he is a footballer, but if he was a goalkeeper would it have stated that or does footballer mean goalkeeper as well. I was wondering about this when remembering what Patti said about the grip and he would be good at gripping the ball and saving goals.
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Post  Patti on Sat Jul 02, 2011 2:16 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:- And is the upper head line not connected to the life line?

There is no requirement mentioned in the report regarding the upper headline being separated from the life line.
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Post  Parender on Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:46 am

Hello,

Many people are trying to figure out what this little line really meant. My conception based on scientific analysis is -definitely presence or having of ‘dual personality or dual behavior’ in a person. You can say “A highly alert, prideful person who possesses dual personality”, if present on both the hands. If only on left hand the person has discarded the particular nature. If found only on right hand the person still under the impression of dual personality.
By ‘dual personality’ I mean a person consisting or having more than one behavior patterns decidedly dissimilar in aspects or qualities.

For example: like the office of a clergyman is twofold; public preaching and private influence.

I know two ladies who have this mark on their palms of the hands are really miser, ruthless, direct, no hesitation, even cruel to outsiders they think they probably will have nothing to do with them in future. If they are powerful the gentleman will prey to their whims. They inclined to take undue advantage. This also shows lack of generosity. They are prideful. They ask many questions. Clingy and stingy.

On the other hand, the same person behaves in pre decidedly different ways, obviously with more compromised humanitarian and sympathetic way at home or with whom she loves or fears. Here they are liberal because now the original Head Line will work which is joined with Life Line. The upper small Head Line will make her stingy the lower liberal. I was trying to establish combinations between the Mounts and Lines. The reason for reaching to this conclusion is this that this line reduces the gap between the two major lines.

There could be many meaning relating to this line.

What do you think? I would like to know. Thank you.
Parender Sethi


Last edited by Parender on Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  Patti on Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:50 pm

Parender wrote: The reason for reaching to this conclusion is this that this line reduces the gap between the two major lines.


I agree Parender that this is an important element of these combinations of joined head and heart lines.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:19 pm

jeanette wrote:... Do you know does the suwon crease appear mostly on the left hand. It says he is a footballer, but if he was a goalkeeper would it have stated that or does footballer mean goalkeeper as well. I was wondering about this when remembering what Patti said about the grip and he would be good at gripping the ball and saving goals.

Hi Jeanette,

So far I have seen it more often in the right hand - but that could very well be just coincidence. Basically, it can manifest in both hands... but usually in one hand only.

Yes, goalkeepers are included in the category 'footballer' (but the chance that this Brazilian footballer is a goalkeeper is probably only about 10%... but let's not waiste our time on that aspect because we will never know which position he plays; we better assume that he is not goalkeeper).

wave

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Post  jeanette on Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:24 pm

Thanks Martijin.
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