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How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease!

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How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 3 Empty Re: How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease!

Post  Patti on Fri May 27, 2011 10:29 pm

We disagree and that's fine. My opinion is as good as yours.

The abstract from the report states:

"The union of the major palm creases was frequent in males and right palms to have powerful hand grip."

I don't think this Suwon crease is as rare and specialized as you would like to make it out to be regardless of the fact the Korean's only found a limited number in their group.

You have every right to interpret the paper as you see fit as do I. You are just stricter and very limited. I am positive there will be many variants of this crease just like we see with the Sydney and the simian.

wave
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri May 27, 2011 10:39 pm

Patti wrote:
Accessory II is the 'normal' head line, it could start from the same location as the II part that connects to III in the Suwon and slope away at an angle. I think the term parallel is too strict.

Nope, the word 'parallel' should here probably be recognized essential. I don't see any reason at all to assume that the word is 'too strict'... and I think this is actually another example where you are arguing by making new assumptions.

(Instead I just try to focuss on the details in the Korean article, and I am only working with one single assumption: that all details in the Korean article are relevant... and I think I have never disqualified any single word in this artcle.)


Because I think you are again making a new assumption here (regarding the starting point of the upper head line part)... but this assumption can probably not serve as a solid argument, because a connection between the two lines actually directly VIOLATES the principle that the lines are required to be positioned 'parallel'!

Also, I think you should try to focuss much more on the fact that in the Korean Suwon crease example we clearly see a head line that is positioned 'horizontal in the palm', just like a typically dissociated head line does.


Patti, if a line 'dives' through the life line, then it is usually just a branch of the heart line, and... those lines are actually quite common!!

While thinking about these details, I think that if the head line (II) is connected with the life line like it usually does... then the implication of the word 'parallel' can only mean that the 2nd head line which creates the Suwon crease (resulting in: II+III) should in far most cases manifest as a 'dissociated headline'.

And this could be an essential element, because in all those cases where you and I disagreed... I think we were actually never confronted with any 'dissociated head line' at all!!!

wave

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri May 27, 2011 11:15 pm

Patti wrote:We disagree and that's fine. My opinion is as good as yours.

The abstract from the report states:

"The union of the major palm creases was frequent in males and right palms to have powerful hand grip."

I don't think this Suwon crease is as rare and specialized as you would like to make it out to be regardless of the fact the Korean's only found a limited number in their group.

You have every right to interpret the paper as you see fit as do I. You are just stricter and very limited. I am positive there will be many variants of this crease just like we see with the Sydney and the simian.

wave

Patti, the problem here is that you keep talking as if I am the one who is making an assumption regarding the 'rare' prevalance of this line.

But meanwhile you are ignoring here the facts: because the researcher themselves have presented that as a fact - featured with their statistics + their explicitely claim that their 'Suwon crease' was never ever described before...!!


And instead, you are assuming yourself that certain simian line variants could be described as a Suwon crease. But this assumption directly violates the researcher's claim!

thinking ... My thought is: because if your assumption would have been true, the researchers would have made a crucial big mistake... because then they SHOULD have described that very explicitely in their article.

But it appears completely unlikely that they have made such a mistake, for I observe that there definition for the Suwon crease formally actually EXCLUDES all simian line variants: via the requirement regarding the presence of a head line which can be described as: ' II '.


So, I think we better simply focuss on the facts as described in the article, and I see no reason to reject any word, nor disqualify any specific detail in the only 'confirmed' Suwon crease example that is presented in the article.

Any 'argument' that moves away from those facts as presented in the article... can fairly be described as a speculative 'opion'.


But when I say the Suwon crease as 'rare'... it is quite unfair (even up to unrealistic) to disqualify those words of mine as an 'opinion'; because the Korean researchers themselves have presented that observation as a 'fact'.

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Post  Patti on Sat May 28, 2011 1:28 am

How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 3 Leftg

How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 3 Rightvh

How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 3 Suwon-14

The ink print is one that you Martijn uploaded in the Suwon thread. I think that if Harvey's hand were ink printed we'd be looking a very similar configuration.

The Korean report does not mention a need for the II part of II + III to be parallel to Accessory II. I don't see a need to make it a requirement. There is a coming together of 3 major creases on the radial side of the palms. The rising crease II meeting III is not a branch from III.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat May 28, 2011 2:21 am

Patti wrote:How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 3 Leftg

How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 3 Rightvh

How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 3 Suwon-14

The ink print is one that you Martijn uploaded in the Suwon thread. I think that if Harvey's hand were ink printed we'd be looking a very similar configuration.

scratch ... Sorry Patti, I think that your suggestion is quite impossible:

Because when we look at the details then we can see that only in the third example the line is positioned 'horizontal' in the hand (while in Harvey's hands the line is in both hand cleary running towards the life line).

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat May 28, 2011 2:38 am

Patti wrote:...

The Korean report does not mention a need for the II part of II + III to be parallel to Accessory II. I don't see a need to make it a requirement. There is a coming together of 3 major creases on the radial side of the palms. The rising crease II meeting III is not a branch from III.

Actually...

Only now I recognize that the article DOES mention that the 'parallel' aspect is a requirement; because in the following line we can see that the criteria described in figure 5 have been applied to all three lines!!!:

"Lastly, based on variants of I, II, and III, each major palm crease was classified (Fig. 5)."


And I already menitioned earlier that figure 5 clearly the accessory variant as follows:

"Accessory variant (C): III is accompanied by accessory palm creases which are parallel and more than half of the III length."


=> Therefore the following conclusion is justied:

Both the requirement concerning the 'parallel' aspect and the 'length' aspect are part of the definition for any acessory palmar crease.... and the researchers have applied these criteria for the heart line, life line AND the head line!


Sorry Patti, but this confirms that we can safely EXCLUDE any hand where the line crosses the 'lower' head line... because those hands the line clearly does not follow at least one of the criteria for how an accessory line is defined in the Korean article - specified to the first mentioned aspect: the 'parallel' aspect!


flower

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Post  Patti on Sat May 28, 2011 3:51 am

The concept of the Accessory creases being parallel, of course makes sense as we have always identified 'sister' or 'duplicated' lines in the same manner. The parallel nature is a reflection of the structure of the palm when flexing.

Books on anatomy of the hand point out that the development of the distal transverse crease is associated with the groove outside the volar pads under the middle, ring and little fingers and between the index and middle fingers.

This developmental aspect in my view is more important than the need for an accessory proximal transverse crease to be 'perfectly' parallel to the proximal transverse crease, which is not influenced by the volar pads.

"Quantitative-Qualitative Friction Ridge Analysis" David R. Ashbaugh

How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 3 Crease10

How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 3 Distal14


"Orthopedic Physical Assessment" David J. Magee
How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 3 Distal15

These developmental facts, I believe, will be the basis for the development of the variants of the Suwon.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat May 28, 2011 12:23 pm


Nice post Patti!
Thumbs up!

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Post  Patti on Sat May 28, 2011 2:30 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Nice post Patti!
Thumbs up!

Thanks!
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Post  Patti on Sat May 28, 2011 3:21 pm

When we add the concept of 'speed, order and timing' to the inflating and deflating of the volar pads in the palm we can see how the creases can be forced to form in their different locations. The 'freedom' of the proximal transverse crease to form across the shafts of the metacarpals without influence by the volar pads is very interesting.

In Kimura's chart with the timing of the appearance of the creases, it shows the proximal transverse crease forms at 13 weeks, about the same time, or after, hand movement begins (which is now known to be at 10 to 12 weeks - and much earlier than the 16 weeks proposed by Kimura's team).

I would interpret this as relating to hand movement and flexure influencing the development of the proximal transverse crease. Strong grasping begins after 16 weeks, which is after the head line appears, according to Ashbaugh.

These developmental aspects appear to support the Korean's theories on the creases that relate to strong hand grip.

The persistence or delays in the inflating and deflating of the volar pads most likely are influential factors in the formation of simian, Sydney and Suwon creases.


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Post  jeanette on Sun May 29, 2011 10:29 am

Thanks Patti,
All that is so interesting.
Jeanette.
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Post  Patti on Sun May 29, 2011 4:47 pm

jeanette wrote:Thanks Patti,
All that is so interesting.
Jeanette.

Thank you Jeanette!

sunny
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Post  Patti on Sun May 29, 2011 5:13 pm

Another developmental feature to consider when thinking about the formation of the proximal transverse crease is the 'superficial arterial palmar arch'.

While researching the development of the creases, more than once I found a reference to the superficial arterial palmar arch. Hand surgery texts describe this as being located at or near the location of the proximal transverse crease and in line with an extended thumb.

These arteries can form with an ulnar radial connection or less often without. Bundles of nerves run with the arteries.

How to discriminate a simian crease from a Sydney line and a Suwon crease! - Page 3 033110

Illustrated Encyclopedia of Human Anatomic Variation: Opus II: Cardiovascular System

The percentages of the above types of the superficial arterial palmar arch interestingly are very close to these percentages found in the Korean report.

Normal creases - 84.4%
Simian creases - 12.6%
Sydney creases - 2.5%
Suwon creases - 0.5%


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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun May 29, 2011 5:59 pm

Patti, thanks for presenting this interesting picture showing the artery palmar arch systems.


thinking ... But after studying the details, I don't think there is any relationship.

(Especially since I can not find any info which indicates that there could be connection between the hand's artery system and the palmar creases)


Patti, please be aware that you are trying to comparing Korean palmar creases (which are known for having a much higher occurence of simian creases) with frequencies of artery systems observed in Westerns subjects.


So, the 'parallels' that you observe... are very likely of a 'spurious' nature; and I think it is also hard to imagine any explanation for such a relationship (again, I have the impression that there has never been described any connection between palmar creases and the hand's arthery system).

And especially since the simian crease is the most 'unusual' hand line variant... this should have been confirmed somehow in the artery system (though I can not imagine how), but this is not the case at all: because the artery h-variant shows much more similarities with the very common artery c-variant (in the h-variant there is no ulnar branch which reaches out to the thumb, but this is also true for the artery g, i and j variants).


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sun May 29, 2011 6:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post  Patti on Sun May 29, 2011 6:19 pm

I think a relationship could relate to the nerves that move along with the arteries sending signals relating to hand movement. I also think the early folding of the hand would be influenced by what it is folding around. It would likely fold just above the developing bundle of nerves and the superficial arterial arch. Also important is the reference for surgeons to relate the proximal transverse crease to this artery.



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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun May 29, 2011 6:35 pm

Patti wrote:... Also important is the reference for surgeons to relate the proximal transverse crease to this artery.

I can not recognize this as an argument either:

Because I think that reference probably only works just as 'a point of reference' for where the arterial arch is typically found - but that does not implicate that there is any link between the variations in the shape of the proximal transverse crease and the variations in the shape of the artery system.

So regarding your point regarding the statistics, I think that reference has no value at all.


(I think your arguments are solely the result of the value that you've attributed value to the statistics, but so far I see no fundamental evidence for you point at all... and instead I do see evidence that the parallel regarding the statistics is just coincidence)


Sorry, but I can not confirm your observation.

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Post  Patti on Sun May 29, 2011 11:32 pm

Actually, there have been studies related to the location of the creases and the superficial arterial palmar arch.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10437317


A biometric study on the relationships between the deep palmar arch and the superficial palmar arch, the distal wrist and palmar creases.

The topographical localisation of the palmar arches is important in hand surgery. The aim of this study was to contribute with biometric data on their positions and to correlate this with the size od the palm. We studied 60 hands of 30 adult fixed cadavers, of Brazilian origin, from both sexes and between the ages of 21 and 70 years. The arteries of 54 hands were injected with latex Neoprene. Before dissection the distance between distal wrist crease (DWC) and the proximal palmar digital crease of the middle finger (PDMC) was measured. Also, we recorded the distance between the DWC and the proximal and distal palmar creases (PPC, DPC). After dissecting the superficial palmar region, the distance between the superficial palmar arch (SPA) and the DWC was recorder. We then dissected the deep palmar arch (DPA). The average distance between the DPA and DWC was always measured in the midline of the palm. The average distance DWC-DPA was 33.7 +/- 2.6 mm in the female and 36 +/- 4.0 mm in the male. The difference was statistically significant. The average distance between DPA and the PPC was 24.2 +/- 3.0 mm in the female and 27.1 +/- 4.1 mm in the male; this difference was significant. In 83% of cases the DPA was proximal to the SPA and in 14.9% was distal to it. The linear regression test for the relation between DWC-PDMC and DWC-DPA was significant in the male and this fact allowed us to obtain the linear equation to predict the distance DWC-DPA. Other parameters were also considered. The results may be useful as a reference to radiologists as well as to surgeons.

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Post  Patti on Sun May 29, 2011 11:57 pm

Relationship of deep structures of the hand and wrist to topographical landmarks

"The position of the superficial palmar arch was 2.7 cm distal to the hook of the hamate or at a line bisecting three-fourths of the distance from the distal flexor wrist crease to the proximal palmar crease. The relationship of the superficial palmar arch to topographical landmarks was more consistent than it was when the standard reference of Kaplan's cardinal line was used."

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ca.980060507/abstract



and..not related to the distal transverse crease, but a confirmation that topographical features relate to deep hand structures:

The use of topographical landmarks to improve the outcome of agee endoscopic carpal tunnel release
http://www.arthroscopyjournal.org/article/0749-8063(95)90062-4/abstract

"We recommend the use of topographical landmarks and other anatomic considerations during endoscopic carpal tunnel release."

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon May 30, 2011 12:16 am


Patti, I don't see how those studies are relevant regarding your observation - because both studies did not focuss on variations in the shape of the artery, nor did the studies consider variations in the creases.

Only some distances were measured in the central axis of the palm, and those appear to be quite stable - for example: the difference reported for the males and females is a direct result of the difference in hand size!

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Post  Patti on Mon May 30, 2011 12:33 am

Apparently from what I can tell, research has mainly been done on cadavers. It also seems very little research has been done to compare deep hand structures to surface features. Most likely no one has taken a good look at the inner hand structures of those with simian or Sydney creases.

However, the studies that have been done show a relationship exists between the superficial arterial arch and topographical features.

It seems logical to me that if we're applying behavioral characteristics to a feature in the hand, such as the simian, that the nervous and cardiovascular systems would be involved.

Patti
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon May 30, 2011 1:36 am

Patti wrote:...

It seems logical to me that if we're applying behavioral characteristics to a feature in the hand, such as the simian, that the nervous and cardiovascular systems would be involved.

Oh yes, sure Patti: I understand why you call it 'logical'... and I agree that it would have been logical if we had found evidence which points into that direction.

But the materials that you've presented so far, including the statistics that you mentioned, do not present any evidence which could explain some of the variation in the creases.

So I think we drifted away from the topic in this discussion: how to recognize the differences between various 'transversal crease' types.

wave

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Post  Patti on Mon May 30, 2011 2:52 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
So I think we drifted away from the topic in this discussion: how to recognize the differences between various 'transversal crease' types.

wave

My posts in this thread the past couple of days illustrate the variable nature of the location of the proximal transverse crease and the underlying structures.

The distal transverse and the thenar longitudinal creases are heavily influenced in their locations by the volar pads that are present at the time of their development.

The PTC forms during and after hand movement begins and near to or after the deflating of the volar pads. Its territory is mostly free of restrictions across the shafts of the metacarpals.

The accessory creases, according to Ashbaugh, form after the major creases or after 14 weeks. In the case of the Suwon, I would interpret Ashbaugh's 'accessory' to be the radial crease rising to meet the DTC. The extra crease, the Suwon, brings together three major creases relating to strong hand grip. A gripping posture likely shapes the Suwon.

A double PTC would be expected to be parallel to each other and run horizontally across the palm.

The Suwon is a crease that reaches up to the DTC on the radial side of the palm. This indicates that the Suwon crease (or the II part of II+III) is moving in a direction not common for a PTC. The Accessory PTC can be located anywhere a typical PTC is normally found, which is not necessarily parallel to a rising crease.

I think I have supported my argument that the II part of II + III does not need to be parallel to Accessory II.

Other than your interpretation of one line of the Korean's report, which is a generalization and not specific to the PTC, can you support your statement that these must be parallel?


Last edited by Patti on Mon May 30, 2011 2:59 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : clarity)
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon May 30, 2011 3:14 am

Patti wrote:... Other than your interpretation of one line of the Korean's report, which is a generalization and not specific to the PTC, can you support your statement that these must be parallel?

Patti, your request suggests that I have made a hypothetical observation regarding the importance of the word 'parallel' in the definition of the Suwon crease (figure 5)... but my observation is literally written in the article (see the lines that I already pointed out earlier).

So, all I did was taking the details presented in the article litterally. Therefore I don't see any substantiated need to request more support for my observation... again, unless you are able to proof yourself that those details should not be taken as literally as I have pointed out!!

(I hope this request in return from my side... makes sense!?)

wave


PS. I think your focuss was so far not to proof that those details should better not be taken literally. Instead - from my point of view - you have only created speculative arguments with unrelated materials... and these require far too much phantasy for me to be accepted as solid arguments.

Therefore I simply prefer to continue and accept all details in the article as meaningfull regarding how the Suwon crease is defined. Unless you provide evidence that I have taken the words in the article 'too litterally'.... Smile

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Post  Patti on Mon May 30, 2011 4:33 am

I think your quote for the accessory creases to be parallel and at least more than half the length is a requirement of the normal main creases when there is a 'sister' line.

In Table 4 there is a category for the accessory creases for II. These Accessory II's are most likely not Suwon related (see female category). They would follow the rules for Accessory creases and are most likely double head lines.

The Korean's report that the Suwon's Accessory II is associated with I.

"Second, Sydney creases are more frequent than Suwon creases because Sydney creases have accessory III, which is not close to any major palm creases, while Suwon creases have accessory II, which is close to I."

"Based on the relationships between I and II, palm creases were classified into closed, open and meeting creases. Based on the relationship between II and III, palm creases were classified into normal, simian, Sydney, and Suwon creases. Lastly, based on variants of I, II, and III, each major palm crease was classified."


Suwon is based on the relationship of II and III while its accessory II has a relationship with I and can be 'closed, open or meeting'.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon May 30, 2011 11:11 am

Patti wrote:I think your quote for the accessory creases to be parallel and at least more than half the length is a requirement of the normal main creases when there is a 'sister' line.

In Table 4 there is a category for the accessory creases for II. These Accessory II's are most likely not Suwon related (see female category). They would follow the rules for Accessory creases and are most likely double head lines.

Yes Patti, I can confirm your conclusion about table 4:

The 'order' that the researchers describe in your quotes, shows that the Suwon creases were already classified BEFORE the classification of the 'variants' for I, II and III...!!!

This explains that in table 4 all 'accessory creases' for the head line should not be associated with the hands where a Suwon crease is observed - which is confirmed by the statistics in table 2 and 4.

And this choice perfectly makes sense (from my point of view), because it would not make sense to qualify head lines as 'accessory' when they actually fuse with the heart line.


Afterall, the Suwon crease was presented as an independent category... and therefore it makes sense that those hands are not included in the summary of the variants of the creases that do not make a fusion/connection with the other lines.

However, because of the vocabulary used in how the Suwon crease is defined, regarding the word 'accessory' there can be no doubt about that the researchers have used for the II part of the Suwon crease exactly the same criteria as for all other 'accessory' lines (the aspects: 'parallel' + 'length'). But in those hands those lines were counted as a 'Suwon crease' and not as a 'accessory' variant.

'Simples!' Very Happy


PS. The same is true for the Sydney line variants which are created by the presence of an extra crease starting from the ulnar side of the hand (Sydney 2, 3 and 4) - also confirmed by the statistics in table 2 and 4.

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