Your opinion & share...
Latest topics
» Palm reading please reply.
Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:47 pm by Keeperlit19

» Seeking Medical Palmistry Author
Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:11 pm by jezlucky

» Travel Lines
Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:12 am by kalki

» Simian Line / Single Transverse Palmar Crease
Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:26 pm by Martijn (admin)

» Hasta Samudrika Shastra - the most ancient palmistry system!
Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:13 am by Martijn (admin)

» Hands & the Major Factor of Personality!
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:41 pm by Martijn (admin)

» best way to learn
Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:00 pm by Martijn (admin)

» THE MOST CHALLENGING HAND: Simian Lines, Murderer’s Thumbs & Radial loops
Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:05 am by lawrencerook

» Palm is blackish
Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:57 am by pravin kumar

» Worries and stress
Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:03 pm by bmcgowra

» is chinese palmistry compatible with western palmistry
Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:49 pm by nuttyprofessor

» wheel sign on the palm
Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:53 pm by appanna

» White spots on palm
Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:05 am by Lynn

» What Does Broken Life Line Indicate?
Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:50 am by amit_plawat

» Discover Multi-Perspective Palm Reading!
Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:55 pm by Martijn (admin)

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 


Rechercher Advanced Search

Who is online?
In total there are 33 users online :: 0 Registered, 0 Hidden and 33 Guests

None

[ View the whole list ]


Most users ever online was 293 on Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:22 am
Moderators & partners

• Discover the Modern Hand Reading Forum partners:

Would you like to see your website listed?

Modern Hand Reading Forum Partners

Pointing finger: check this out!

Statistics
We have 5223 registered users
The newest registered user is Alex90

Our users have posted a total of 43288 messages in 4302 subjects
Top posting users this week
Juno
 
pravin kumar
 
kalki
 
kunalbhatt2@yahoo.com
 

Recommendations

• The FREE hand reading services at the Modern Hand Reading Forum are being continued in 2015 with the assistance of Google adsense!


Pointing finger: check this out!



Google+
MAJOR HAND READING SYNONYMS
Palmistry, Palm Reading, Hand Analysis, Chirology & Chiromancy.

Learn how to read hands according the Modern Hand Reading paradigm & you can use this forum as your palm reading guide!

Nail width compared to Fingerprint type

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Nail width compared to Fingerprint type

Post  Patti on Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:51 pm

Has anyone come across any information that relates the width of a fingernail to the type of fingerprint pattern? Or, the width of a fingernail to the distal phalangeal bone?

Studies by Babler show that it isn't the height of the volar pad that influences the pattern type but the width of the bone developing underneath the volar pad.

Since the tension from the developing nail bed influences dermatoglyphic development along with the width of the distal bone, I'm wondering if the width of the nail itself is influenced by the width of the bone it is covering. If so, it might tie in the nail shape with the fingerprint pattern.
avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type

Post  Patti on Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:04 pm

Answering my own question! Very Happy Wikipedia says:

"The underlying bone is a virtual mould of the overlying horny structure and therefore has the same shape as the claw or nail"

This should relate the fingernail shape to the fingerprint!
avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:44 pm


Hi Patti,

I am wondering... since fingerprint type is not mentioned in the Wikipedia article at all (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nail_(anatomy)#Non-human_anatomy), ... and nail width is not mentioned in Babler's theory... what made you jump into the conclusion that fingernail shape and fingerprint types are related?


I also wonder...

- Can fingernail-width be considered as constant measure?

- Fingerprint type varies significantly among males and females; but I am not sure that likewise sexe-depended characteristics have been observed for fingernails (though I would expect that the average female nail shape will be slightly narrow and longer compared to the average male nail shape... but I am not sure that I have ever seen any confirmed evidence for this).

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
avatar
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5207
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type

Post  Patti on Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:31 pm

It's more an association than a conclusion.

Babler's earlier theory was about relating volar pad height and size to fingerprint pattern. His later research showed the pattern was directly related to bone width. Narrow bones were found to be related to whorl patterns.

"Results of this study indicated that digital pattern type (arch, loop or whorl) is associated with the shape of the volar pad at the time of ridge formation. However, this association is related only to pad width. Pattern type is also associated with shape of the bony distal phalanx. These data underscore the importance of understanding the developmental basis of dermatoglyphic variation."

Articles by William Babler

There are many factors involved in the development of a particular pattern which includes the nervous system, the tension of the nail bed (distally and laterally), bony structure, the timing of the volar pads, and the shape or inclinations of the volar pad, to name just a few.

If Babler's results show that a narrow bone is involved in a fingerprint being a whorl and if fingernail shape is directly related to the bone shape, it would be reasonable to question to what degree the nail and fingerprint are associated. Particularly since the tension of the nail bed influences the earliest formation of ridges on the distal phalange. The shape of this nail bed would have an influence on the tension laterally and distally. The location of the nail on the fingertip would also be something to consider. My own nails begin just below the core of the pattern. My nails are naturally long and I have whorls. It's something to check out on other people's fingertips.
avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type

Post  Patti on Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:02 pm

"Prenatal Development of Dermatoglyphic Digital Patterns: Associations with Epidermal Ridge, Volar Pad and Bone Morphology"

"While shape of the volar pad may not be the sole determinant of ridge configuration, it apparently is critical at the time of ridge formation in influencing the course of the ridges. The delineation of factors which may influence pad shape is the logical next step."

avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:17 pm

Patti wrote:It's more an association than a conclusion.

Babler's earlier theory was about relating volar pad height and size to fingerprint pattern. His later research showed the pattern was directly related to bone width. Narrow bones were found to be related to whorl patterns.

"Results of this study indicated that digital pattern type (arch, loop or whorl) is associated with the shape of the volar pad at the time of ridge formation. However, this association is related only to pad width. Pattern type is also associated with shape of the bony distal phalanx. These data underscore the importance of understanding the developmental basis of dermatoglyphic variation."

Articles by William Babler
...

Patti, okay... I can understand your assocation.

But can you point out for me: where exactly did you find that Babler suggests that fingerprint type relates to bone width?


NOTICE: I am asking because in the following article Babler presents results which describe that there is no correlation between pattern type and 'apical taft' width (= distal end of the distal phalange) - http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_Prenatal_Dev_Dermatoglyphic_Patterns.pdf

Quoted from page 300:

"Using analysis of covariance procedures to adjust for increasing size due to age, no signficant differences between pattern types was found for either length of the distal phalanx or width of the tuft."

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
avatar
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5207
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type

Post  Patti on Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:31 pm

http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_W_1991.pdf

"Recently, Babler has examined the developmental relationships between epidermal ridges and the developing bone skeleton of the hand. He has shown a significant prenatal relationship between epidermal ridge dimension and bone dimension of the hand. Bone dimensions, both in length of the cartilaginous model and bone collar, of distal phalanges and metacarpals were significantly correlated to digital epidermal ridge dimensions."

There is another quote that directly states that a narrow distal fingertip was related to a whorl pattern. I think it might be in one of Plato's books and I'm not near my books right now.
avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type

Post  Patti on Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:07 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:It's more an association than a conclusion.

Babler's earlier theory was about relating volar pad height and size to fingerprint pattern. His later research showed the pattern was directly related to bone width. Narrow bones were found to be related to whorl patterns.

"Results of this study indicated that digital pattern type (arch, loop or whorl) is associated with the shape of the volar pad at the time of ridge formation. However, this association is related only to pad width. Pattern type is also associated with shape of the bony distal phalanx. These data underscore the importance of understanding the developmental basis of dermatoglyphic variation."

Articles by William Babler
...

Patti, okay... I can understand your assocation.

But can you point out for me: where exactly did you find that Babler suggests that fingerprint type relates to bone width?


NOTICE: I am asking because in the following article Babler presents results which describe that there is no correlation between pattern type and 'apical taft' width (= distal end of the distal phalange) - http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_Prenatal_Dev_Dermatoglyphic_Patterns.pdf

Quoted from page 300:

"Using analysis of covariance procedures to adjust for increasing size due to age, no signficant differences between pattern types was found for either length of the distal phalanx or width of the tuft."

Read page 66 of this report:

http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_W_1991.pdf

"These data suggest that arch patterns are associated with an increased width of the tuft relative to the length of the bone collar of the distal phalanx while narrow tuft width appears to be associated with loop configurations."

I can see there are contradictions among his reports.

But this report does continue to discuss various other factors such as bone ossification and the speed, order and timing involved in bone development as factors involved in pattern formation.
avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:26 pm

Patti wrote:http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_W_1991.pdf

"Recently, Babler has examined the developmental relationships between epidermal ridges and the developing bone skeleton of the hand. He has shown a significant prenatal relationship between epidermal ridge dimension and bone dimension of the hand. Bone dimensions, both in length of the cartilaginous model and bone collar, of distal phalanges and metacarpals were significantly correlated to digital epidermal ridge dimensions."

There is another quote that directly states that a narrow distal fingertip was related to a whorl pattern. I think it might be in one of Plato's books and I'm not near my books right now.

Thanks Patti!

But this quote does not confirm your conclusion (that Babler described a relationship between 'fingerprint pattern type' and bone with). For, your quote refers to the article that I mentioned in my former post.

In that article 'epidermal ridge dimension' is not associated with fingerprint pattern type... instead, those words only refer to three specific aspects of the indidual ridges: 1 - ridge width; 2 - primary ridge depth; 3 - interridge width.

(see page 299: http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_Prenatal_Dev_Dermatoglyphic_Patterns.pdf )


So, this confirms what I already pointed out in my former post: Babler's work does not describe a relationship between bone width & fingerprint type.


Finally, regarding your reference to Plato's work... I am looking forward to hear more about the details!

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
avatar
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5207
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type

Post  Patti on Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:00 pm

Thanks Martijn for your input.

I was referring to a report by Babler that would have been in one of Chris Plato's books. I'll look when I get a chance.
avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type

Post  Patti on Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:13 pm

Hopefully the point of this discussion isn't lost arguing details of various Babler studies about bone ossification and bone width. It's obvious his viewpoints changed with each study, but ended with the idea that there is more involved in pattern formation than the epidermis.

There is still the fact that the tension from the nail bed and the distal interphalangeal crease pull the ridges into rows that are perpendicular to the direction of tension. (any disagreement on that aspect?)



avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type

Post  Patti on Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:56 pm

In "Dermatoglyphics, Science in Transition" (1991) page 105-106

"Recently, Babler has examined the developmental relationships between epidermal ridges and the developing bone skeleton of the hand."

"Generally, we can conclude that bone development does play a role in epidermal ridge configuration."

avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type

Post  Patti on Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:26 am

http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_Prenatal_Dev_Dermatoglyphic_Patterns.pdf

The abstract at the beginning of the pdf (above link) states that the results showed that patterns were related to pad width and not length. There is another report that states that pad width was related to bone width. I'm looking for that source.

If, pad width is related to bone width and bone width is related to nail width, then the width of the nail may have a relationship with the pattern, particularly if pattern is related to pad width. Very Happy
avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:42 am

Patti wrote:Thanks Martijn for your input.

I was referring to a report by Babler that would have been in one of Chris Plato's books. I'll look when I get a chance.

Aha... now I see what you mean: Babler's article is also presented in Plato's book 'Dermatoglyphics: Science in Transition' (1991).

And you are probably referring to this sentence in Babler's article (page 06 - http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_W_1991.pdf):

"http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_W_1991.pdf"


And after re-studying Babler's 1987 article again (http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_Prenatal_Dev_Dermatoglyphic_Patterns.pdf), I understand that the quote probably relates to the result found for the RADIAL LOOP.

thinking Hmmm... those results in table 4 may look impressive, however, Babler also notifies explicitely that the radial loop sample was rather small (N=5) ... while there were 94 fetuses involved in that study.

But while the results in table 5 are not significant, but if the results for the radial loops had been included in table 5 as well... that could have produced a (small) significant result.

However, when we compared the size of the effect with the results found for 'volar pad width' (see table 2), then we should conclude that the effect-size for the radial loop is much smaller.


So Patti, at best Babler's study only suggest a correlation between finger print type and the 'tuft width' vs. 'distal phalange length'.... but only based on the result for the radial loop.

But 'tuft width' is no direct measure of the width of the distal phalange. So, this study provides no evidence for your assumption that phalange width correlates with fingerprint pattern type.

(Babbler only was able to measure the length of the distal phalange, but not the width of the distal phalange... probably because the width of the distal phalanges was 'inflatted' by the presence of the rather wide volar pads!)



Finally, I also notice that Babler wrote in his 1991 article:

"Whorl patterns tend to be associated with shorter distal phalanges"

confused ... But for me this doesn't make sense at all in the perspective of the conclusion in the 1987 article:

"Using analysis of covariance procedures to adjust for increasing size due to age, no signficant differences between pattern types was found for either length of the distal phalanx or width of the tuft."

So, I guess I would need his 1989 article as well to understand ... because the results in table 5 of the 1987 article suggest that arches appear to be associated with relatively the shortest distal phalanges (when compared to volar pad with).


geek ... Anyway, none of the 3 articles presented by Babler appears to suggests a direct connection between fingerprint pattern and the width of the distal phalange.

Nevertheless... it is interesting to remember that Babler's result suggest that there could be a link between relatively long, narrow distal phalanges and a radial loop.

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
avatar
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5207
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type

Post  Patti on Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:02 am

Most of the support I've seen for a radial loop was the inclination or leaning of the pad.
avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type

Post  Patti on Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:05 am

Page 104 of the above mentioned book, last sentence of top section: "Babler was also able to demonstrate prenatally a direct association between apical pad symmetry and loop direction (ulnar or radial)." (1991)
avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type

Post  Lynn on Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:21 am

Thanks for your interesting posts Patti :-)

___________________________________________
Lynn
www.handanalysis.co.uk
avatar
Lynn

Posts : 2408
Join date : 2010-07-24
Location : Devon, England

http://www.handanalysis.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type

Post  Patti on Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:23 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
But 'tuft width' is no direct measure of the width of the distal phalange. So, this study provides no evidence for your assumption that phalange width correlates with fingerprint pattern type.

(Babbler only was able to measure the length of the distal phalange, but not the width of the distal phalange... probably because the width of the distal phalanges was 'inflatted' by the presence of the rather wide volar pads!)

Finally, I also notice that Babler wrote in his 1991 article:

"Whorl patterns tend to be associated with shorter distal phalanges"

confused ... But for me this doesn't make sense at all in the perspective of the conclusion in the 1987 article:

"Using analysis of covariance procedures to adjust for increasing size due to age, no signficant differences between pattern types was found for either length of the distal phalanx or width of the tuft."

So, I guess I would need his 1989 article as well to understand ... because the results in table 5 of the 1987 article suggest that arches appear to be associated with relatively the shortest distal phalanges (when compared to volar pad with).


geek ... Anyway, none of the 3 articles presented by Babler appears to suggests a direct connection between fingerprint pattern and the width of the distal phalange.

Nevertheless... it is interesting to remember that Babler's result suggest that there could be a link between relatively long, narrow distal phalanges and a radial loop.

I don't think I've made assumptions, or at least that wasn't my intention. I have made associations and placed them out here for discussion and input.

From Babler's paper "Prenatal Development of Dermatoglyphic Patterns: Associations with Epidermal Ridge, Volar Pad and Bone Morphology" (1987) Page 300 under "The Volar Pad and Ridge Configuration" heading, it says:

"Volar pad width, however, did show a significant association with pattern type. Specifically, narrow pads were associated with whorls. The mean pad widths for arches and loops, respectively were 2.01 and 1.53 mm where the mean pad width for whorls was 1.14 mm."

http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_Prenatal_Dev_Dermatoglyphic_Patterns.pdf


Last edited by Patti on Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:43 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : added link)
avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type

Post  Patti on Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:31 am

Lynn wrote:Thanks for your interesting posts Patti :-)


Thanks!
Smile
avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:09 am

Patti wrote:
I don't think I've made assumptions, or at least that wasn't my intention. I have made associations and placed them out here for discussion and input.

From Babler's paper "Prenatal Development of Dermatoglyphic Patterns: Associations with Epidermal Ridge, Volar Pad and Bone Morphology" (1987) Page 300 under "The Volar Pad and Ridge Configuration" heading, it says:

"Volar pad width, however, did show a significant association with pattern type. Specifically, narrow pads were associated with whorls. The mean pad widths for arches and loops, respectively were 2.01 and 1.53 mm where the mean pad width for whorls was 1.14 mm."

http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_Prenatal_Dev_Dermatoglyphic_Patterns.pdf

Patti... you appear to assume that 'distal phalange width' is an indicator for 'volar pad width', but the effect-sizes in the 1987 article tell me that this is not the case.


Please remember, I have pointed out to the passages which explicitely described that both 'distal phalange length' and 'tuft width' do not correlate with pattern type.

And therefore there is in Babler's work also no foundation for making the assumption that nail width correlates with fingerprint type, which you suggested in the second message of this topic:

"This should relate the fingernail shape to the fingerprint!"

(The wikipedia quote only describes the general structure, but does not point out to any correlations in the typical variantions that could make a link to fingerprint type - which you mentioned as the essential part of your question as you mentioned in the title of this topic)

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
avatar
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5207
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type

Post  Patti on Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:14 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
I don't think I've made assumptions, or at least that wasn't my intention. I have made associations and placed them out here for discussion and input.

From Babler's paper "Prenatal Development of Dermatoglyphic Patterns: Associations with Epidermal Ridge, Volar Pad and Bone Morphology" (1987) Page 300 under "The Volar Pad and Ridge Configuration" heading, it says:

"Volar pad width, however, did show a significant association with pattern type. Specifically, narrow pads were associated with whorls. The mean pad widths for arches and loops, respectively were 2.01 and 1.53 mm where the mean pad width for whorls was 1.14 mm."

http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_Prenatal_Dev_Dermatoglyphic_Patterns.pdf

Patti... you appear to assume that 'distal phalange width' is an indicator for 'volar pad width', but the effect-sizes in the 1987 article tell me that this is not the case.



I don't think I've said that at all.

I compared distal bone width to fingerprint, and volar pad width to fingerprint. My post is about comparing fingerprint to fingernail via the widths of volar pad or distal bone.

p.s.: This association is in reference to prenatal conditions.
avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type

Post  Patti on Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:20 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
I don't think I've made assumptions, or at least that wasn't my intention. I have made associations and placed them out here for discussion and input.

From Babler's paper "Prenatal Development of Dermatoglyphic Patterns: Associations with Epidermal Ridge, Volar Pad and Bone Morphology" (1987) Page 300 under "The Volar Pad and Ridge Configuration" heading, it says:

"Volar pad width, however, did show a significant association with pattern type. Specifically, narrow pads were associated with whorls. The mean pad widths for arches and loops, respectively were 2.01 and 1.53 mm where the mean pad width for whorls was 1.14 mm."

http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_Prenatal_Dev_Dermatoglyphic_Patterns.pdf

Patti... you appear to assume that 'distal phalange width' is an indicator for 'volar pad width', but the effect-sizes in the 1987 article tell me that this is not the case.


Please remember, I have pointed out to the passages which explicitely described that both 'distal phalange length' and 'tuft width' do not correlate with pattern type.

And therefore there is in Babler's work also no foundation for making the assumption that nail width correlates with fingerprint type, which you suggested in the second message of this topic:

"This should relate the fingernail shape to the fingerprint!"

(The wikipedia quote only describes the general structure, but does not point out to any correlations in the typical variantions that could make a link to fingerprint type - which you mentioned as the essential part of your question as you mentioned in the title of this topic)

The above (and below) quote is directly from Babler.

"Volar pad width, however, did show a significant association with pattern type. Specifically, narrow pads were associated with whorls. The mean pad widths for arches and loops, respectively were 2.01 and 1.53 mm where the mean pad width for whorls was 1.14 mm."
avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type

Post  Patti on Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:24 am

Martijn, you have not shown there is no support for comparing fingernail width or shape to pattern type. You have only shown that you cannot find any research that has been done to support or discount my associations.
avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type

Post  Patti on Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:27 am

avatar
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:53 am

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
I don't think I've made assumptions, or at least that wasn't my intention. I have made associations and placed them out here for discussion and input.

From Babler's paper "Prenatal Development of Dermatoglyphic Patterns: Associations with Epidermal Ridge, Volar Pad and Bone Morphology" (1987) Page 300 under "The Volar Pad and Ridge Configuration" heading, it says:

"Volar pad width, however, did show a significant association with pattern type. Specifically, narrow pads were associated with whorls. The mean pad widths for arches and loops, respectively were 2.01 and 1.53 mm where the mean pad width for whorls was 1.14 mm."

http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_Prenatal_Dev_Dermatoglyphic_Patterns.pdf

Patti... you appear to assume that 'distal phalange width' is an indicator for 'volar pad width', but the effect-sizes in the 1987 article tell me that this is not the case.



I don't think I've said that at all.

I compared distal bone width to fingerprint, and volar pad width to fingerprint. My post is about comparing fingerprint to fingernail via the widths of volar pad or distal bone.

p.s.: This association is in reference to prenatal conditions.

Yes Patti... you indeed have not said that. But it is quite obvious for my how you make your 'assocations': you have been jumping via volar pad width, and distal phalange shape, to nail width!

However, from the link between fingerprint type with 1) volar pad width and 2) distal phalange shape ... you can not jump into the assumption/conclusion that fingerprint type also correlates with nail width.

Especially, since you appear to underestimate the consequences of the fact that there is even contradictionary evidence:

Again, Babler explicitely described that the facts show that both distal phalange length and tuft width do NOT correlate with fingerprint type.


And then it would only be common sense to assume that distal phalange width does NOT correlate with fingerprint type either.

... Resulting in that according these 'logics', my conclusion so far is:
It is even UNLIKELY that fingernail width correlates with fingerprint type.


(and I repeat: I am not sure that the fingernail width can be described as a 'constant' measure either)

I hope that my conclusion now makes sense for you as well?

wave


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:47 am; edited 1 time in total

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
avatar
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5207
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum