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unusual palmar dermatoglyphics

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unusual palmar dermatoglyphics

Post  Lynn on Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:44 pm

One of my students brought in these handprints of a 24 year old female.
Right handed, very flexible fingers, oval / water (long,narrow) nails.

Right hand - interdigital patterns: -
ID II -loop
ID III - loop
ID IV - is it a whorl or peacock's eye?
also some (loop?) pattern on venus mount (need a better print to see it properly).

Left hand - interdigital patterns
ID I -loop
ID II -loop
ID III - loop
ID IV big whorl

The pattern I am most interested in, is on left hand underneath the ID I 'loop of courage', on the Venus mount. It is an unusual pattern with the skin ridges 'squared off' at the top - . Is it a whorl or a double loop?

I think we could argue about one or two of her fingerprints also Laughing but need to get better prints of them.

Right hand


Left hand



Last edited by Lynn on Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:02 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added info)

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Re: unusual palmar dermatoglyphics

Post  Patti on Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:59 pm

Lynn wrote:One of my students brought in these handprints of a 24 year old female.

Right hand - interdigital patterns: -
ID II -loop
ID III - loop
ID IV - is it a whorl or peacock's eye?
also some (loop?) pattern on venus mount (need a better print to see it properly).

Left hand - interdigital patterns
ID I -loop
ID II -loop
ID III - loop
ID IV big whorl

The pattern I am most interested in, is on left hand underneath the ID I 'loop of courage', on the Venus mount. It is an unusual pattern with the skin ridges 'squared off' at the top - . Is it a whorl or a double loop?

I think we could argue about one or two of her fingerprints also Laughing but need to get better prints of them.





I would go with double loop category of the whorls.

The early writers referred to the small group of horizontal ridges in this area as a vestige - remnants of an elevated paw pad which is noticible in the other hand.
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Re: unusual palmar dermatoglyphics

Post  Patti on Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:47 pm

The unusually large interdigital whorls, with their obvious 3 triradii, are also of interest. Fascinating dermatoglyphics throughout the hands. I need to take another look and count the total triradii.

Hope you'll be able to share more about the personality and lifestyle of the individual.

<edit> I'm counting 16 triradii in one hand and 14 in the other. Is that what you can see Lynn?

Hahaha! Just noticed the thumb prints are whorls! Change that count to 17 and 15!!
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Re: unusual palmar dermatoglyphics

Post  Patti on Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:04 pm



When you look at it closely, it's not clear that there is a true lower loop.

There's one ridge that recurves on the right, but it has an appendage at the top. The next ridge up becomes part of the top loop - as a type line for the top loop.

See Fig. 319

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19022/19022-h/19022-h.htm

Maybe it's a loop wrapped around a vestage.
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Re: unusual palmar dermatoglyphics

Post  Lynn on Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:56 pm

Thanks for your replies Patti. I had thought the same about the lower loop not really being a loop. I wasn't sure what pattern it was. Never heard of vestige before. Thanks!

also forgot to ask - Right hand interdigital loop between apollo & saturn (sometimes known as loop of responsibility / seriousness) is it a peacock's eye?

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Re: unusual palmar dermatoglyphics

Post  Patti on Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:44 pm

Lynn wrote:Thanks for your replies Patti. I had thought the same about the lower loop not really being a loop. I wasn't sure what pattern it was. Never heard of vestige before. Thanks!

also forgot to ask - Right hand interdigital loop between apollo & saturn (sometimes known as loop of responsibility / seriousness) is it a peacock's eye?

The pattern on the right hand (thumb on left on screen) is a vestige. It's considered an incomplete pattern in the developmental stage.

As regards the peacock's eye, can you see more than one complete recurving ridge? If not, I think the only contained circle is 'spoiled' by it's connection to another ridge - or an appendage.

Although it may not be a 'proper' peacock - there is definitely 'whorl' energy involved.

Do you know if the owner of these prints has some kind of disorder that would be related to concentration?
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Re: unusual palmar dermatoglyphics

Post  Lynn on Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:23 am

Sorry Patti I don't know anything about her. I was told that she's having difficulty deciding what to do now she's left college (not surprising with her double loops on thumbs!)
Some areas of the scans aren't clear but some fingerprints are clearer.

Right hand scan


Left hand scan


Thumbs

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Re: unusual palmar dermatoglyphics

Post  waqar.an on Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:43 am

what this pattern mean exactly?...scratch
i have pattern similar to this and and loop of courage on left hand.

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Re: unusual palmar dermatoglyphics

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:35 pm

Lynn wrote:Thanks for your replies Patti. I had thought the same about the lower loop not really being a loop. I wasn't sure what pattern it was. Never heard of vestige before. Thanks!

also forgot to ask - Right hand interdigital loop between apollo & saturn (sometimes known as loop of responsibility / seriousness) is it a peacock's eye?

Hi Lynn,

I general: I can support the observations that were described by Patti.


And I could add the following:

- left venus: likely there is a pair of loops, because some ridges appear make de outline of a double loop, but the horizontal lines make it difficult to make a permanent judement.

- right venus: it could be a narrow loop, but the horizontal line in this print as well make it hard to discuss the details.

- right ID2: we can not speak of an extra triradius in the center, and therefore it can simply be described as a loop; but I observe the whorl-like ridge as well... but actually... this very much looks like a true TRIFURCATION... followed by a BIFURCATION!


PS. Formally, the essential characteristic is of a fingerprint 'peacock' requires that none of the 'whorling ridges' cross the imaginary line between the two triradii (see the FBI book).

But a palmar whorl is always surrounded by 3 triradii (though on the hypothenar one or two of them can be positioned 'extralimital'). So, in the palm the situation is a little different: because there are not just 2 triradii like is seen in a fingerprint.

And the consequence of this different situation is that it is fairly impossibly to apply the fingerprint-peacock criterium to the palm: because in a palmar whorl you will nearly always find that some of the 'whorling ridges' do not cross one or more of the 3 imaginary lines between the 3 triradii that surround the whorl. Therefore it is formally not usefull to apply the concept of a peacock to the palm... and for this argument I would not be surprized if none of the many scientific researchers have ever tried to apply to concept of a 'peacock' to the palm.

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Re: unusual palmar dermatoglyphics

Post  Patti on Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:24 pm

It's fascinating studying the large whorls at both interdigital IV

They would have formed because of a very large and perhaps long lasting volar pad. That would mean for some reason the owner of these enlarged pads with rings of ridges is endowed with particularly heightened areas of sensation.

Thinking of evolution in this family tree...and the patterns on the thenar mounts/interdigital I, I wonder if this family of people are particularly skilled with work done with hands. Pottery comes to mind first, but any kind of hands on work that extra sensitivity in the palms would be an enhancement.

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Re: unusual palmar dermatoglyphics

Post  Felicity Martin on Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:57 am

Hi Martijn

A stupid question- but why can't we have an extra central triradii? I can understand that there should be one axial triradii for working out ATD angles, but it seems strange to allocate a loop classification.

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Re: unusual palmar dermatoglyphics

Post  Lynn on Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:09 am

Sorry I've been busy - many thanks for your replies.
I didn't know that we couldn't allocate peacocks eye to interdigital /palmar dermatoglyphics.
I will try to find out more about this person (and her family).
I will also ask if it is possible to get another set of ink prints, or digital photos - might help to make the skin ridges clearer.
waqar - I'm not sure how to interpret this pattern on Venus mount, because it is so unusual. I would be interested to see yours too if it is similar - would you be willing to post your hand pics or prints in a new topic?
When I get some free time I will start a new topic about loop of courage because I am interested to know how others interpret it.

Thanks!

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Re: unusual palmar dermatoglyphics

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:14 am

Felicity Martin wrote:Hi Martijn

A stupid question- but why can't we have an extra central triradii? I can understand that there should be one axial triradii for working out ATD angles, but it seems strange to allocate a loop classification.

felicity

Hi Felicity,

I am afraid that I don't understand your question... does it relate to my comment about the interdigital zone 2 (the palmar zone between the index finger and middle finger)?

(I only observed that: the ridges seen in the example do not qualify to be described as the presence of an extra triradius, so I wasn't suggesting that there can never be "extra central triradii" ... maybe I did not explain my observation very well?)


Have I answered your question?
(If not, can you formulate your question once again?)

wave

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Re: unusual palmar dermatoglyphics

Post  Patti on Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:27 am

I would see this entire configuration as two patterns side by side. One is as you just mentioned the 'loop of courage' in the Interdigital I area and the other is on the thenar mount.

A vestige is mentioned quite often in "Finger Prints, Palms & Soles" in particular on page 105.

Martijn, I think it's the hypothenar that requires the 3rd, possibly extralimital, triradius. Interdigital whorls can form with just two triradii. See examples in above book page 189 on the left - examples are for Interdigital area IV but I have seen similar in the other interdigital areas.
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Re: unusual palmar dermatoglyphics

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:03 am

Patti wrote:
Martijn, I think it's the hypothenar that requires the 3rd, possibly extralimital, triradius. Interdigital whorls can form with just two triradii. See examples in above book page 189 on the left - examples are for Interdigital area IV but I have seen similar in the other interdigital areas.


... Hi Patti,

I think you better look once more again at the details seen in picture 189:
I observe that all ID4 whorl examples in that picture are surrounded by 3 triradii!

flower

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Re: unusual palmar dermatoglyphics

Post  Patti on Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:05 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn, I think it's the hypothenar that requires the 3rd, possibly extralimital, triradius. Interdigital whorls can form with just two triradii. See examples in above book page 189 on the left - examples are for Interdigital area IV but I have seen similar in the other interdigital areas.


... Hi Patti,

I think you better look once more again at the details seen in picture 189:
I observe that all ID4 whorl examples in that picture are surrounded by 3 triradii!

flower

On page 188 there are interdigital whorls with 3 triradii, but on 189 there are interdigital whorls with only 2 triradii. (unless you are counting a triradius not drawn or seen)

On page 101 it describes that the Hypothenar whorls have 3 triradii.

On page 104 is an illustration of a thenar whorl with only 2 triradii.

In the text about the thenar and interdigital areas it does not mention three triradii, only with the hypothenar is three triradii mentioned. Accessory triradii are mentioned for both whorls and loops interdigitally.

In "Dermatoglyphics in Medical Disorders" only the hypothenar is mentioned to have 3 triradii. Page 43 "Whorls (W) in the hypothenar area, however, have three triradii instead of two."

Note the word "however".

If you can show me where it is written that it is not only the hypothenar that requires three triradii for a whorl, I'd be interested in seeing it.
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Re: unusual palmar dermatoglyphics

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:33 pm


... Patti, the first two VII examples in figure 189 do display a whorl featured with 3 triradii.

By the way, in most of these picture the triradius below the the ring finger is not displayed - but when counting triradii these should be counted as well ignored.

So... while in the first three V whorl examples there are only 2 triradii displayed, the third surrounding triradius is found in the triradius below the ring finger (but these are not displayed in those pictures).


PS. Regarding the thenar examples that you mention: the axial triradius (on the hypothenar) is the third surrounding triradius.

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Re: unusual palmar dermatoglyphics

Post  Patti on Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:59 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
... Patti, the first two VII examples in figure 189 do display a whorl featured with 3 triradii.

By the way, in most of these picture the triradius below the the ring finger is not displayed - but when counting triradii these should be counted as well ignored.

So... while in the first three V whorl examples there are only 2 triradii displayed, the third surrounding triradius is found in the triradius below the ring finger (but these are not displayed in those pictures).


PS. Regarding the thenar examples that you mention: the axial triradius (on the hypothenar) is the third surrounding triradius.

I understand your logic in using the axial triradius - but that triradius would be related to any whorl pattern on the hypothenar.

The code beneath the whorls on 188 and 189 also describe the triradii.

Top left on 188 the code for 3 triradii is Wr-u-p (that translates to Whorl with radial, ulnar and proximal triradii). Top left on page 189 the code is Wur (which translates to Whorl with ulnar and radial triradii).
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Re: unusual palmar dermatoglyphics

Post  Patti on Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:19 pm

In Lynn's samples the C line is not involved in the whorl in either hand. Otherwise there would be 4 triradii and that is not described in human hands, but is considered a feature of the primates.





<edit> Page 187 also mentions "central pockets" (or peacock's eye) as interdigital patterns.


Last edited by Patti on Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:28 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : corrected image)
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Re: unusual palmar dermatoglyphics

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:06 pm

Patti wrote:...

Top left on 188 the code for 3 triradii is Wr-u-p (that translates to Whorl with radial, ulnar and proximal triradii). Top left on page 189 the code is Wur (which translates to Whorl with ulnar and radial triradii).

Yes, the codes used by Cummins & Midlo are only used to describe the triradii where a ridge line 'surrounds' the whorl.

My point regarding that usually 3 palmar triradii are surrounding whorl, goes beyond the exact path of the ridge lines involved - I only wanted to underline the principle difference that:
- in a fingerprint whorl there are typically 2 surrounding triradii: where the ridge lines of both triradii surround the whorl;
- in a palmar whorl there are typically 3 surrounding triradii, however whether the ridge lines surround the whorl... depends directly on whether there are loops (or whorls) seen in other parts of the palm.

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Re: unusual palmar dermatoglyphics

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:29 pm

Patti wrote:
<edit> Page 187 also mentions "central pockets" (or peacock's eye) as interdigital patterns.

Thanks for mentioning that sentence, but on page 63 Cummins & Midlo have defined their 'central pocket' as:

"... a whorl or reduced size."

So, backthen Cummins & Midlo did not use the modern definition for a 'central pocket' (which requires the consideration of whether the inner ridge lines cross the imaginary line between triradii), etc..

So I think Cummins & Midlo's definition of a 'central pocket' is outdated...!


PS. Page 187 also mentions my point explicitely:

"The primitive interdigital pattern is a whorl, bounded by three or four triradii and their radiants."

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Re: unusual palmar dermatoglyphics

Post  Patti on Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:53 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
<edit> Page 187 also mentions "central pockets" (or peacock's eye) as interdigital patterns.

Thanks for mentioning that sentence, but on page 63 Cummins & Midlo have defined their 'central pocket' as:

"... a whorl or reduced size."

So, backthen Cummins & Midlo did not use the modern definition for a 'central pocket' (which requires the consideration of whether the inner ridge lines cross the imaginary line between triradii), etc..

So I think Cummins & Midlo's definition of a 'central pocket' is outdated...!


PS. Page 187 also mentions my point explicitely:

"The primitive interdigital pattern is a whorl, bounded by three or four triradii and their radiants."

Primitive refers to primates. Notice the book also contains many primate examples and their second book is entirely based on primates.

Cummins & Midlo is not outdated.
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Re: unusual palmar dermatoglyphics

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:45 pm

Patti wrote:
Primitive refers to primates. Notice the book also contains many primate examples and their second book is entirely based on primates.
...

Smile ... No-no, that's not a correct interpretation for the word 'primitive' (though I understand your association):

Because on page 168 Cummins & Midlo clearly describe how 'primitiveness' obviously can be associated with 'primates', but both are definitely not the same:

"... the pards afford an indirect approach to the question of the primitiveness of pattern. In primates the apparently primitive volar pad is an elevation with a circumscribed base and a more or less pointed summit. This conformation of a pad is developmentally correlated with the presence of a whorl (Chap.11). It may be assumed therefore that the whorl is the primitive pattern type and that other pattern types are advanced, being correlated with regressive changes of pads."


PS. They also use the word 'primitiveness' in the perspective of racial differences (see page 264), and on page 280 they use the word 'primitiveness' in the perspective of criminality (and prositution). Which clearly illustrates that how they used the word 'primitive' is not bound to primates at all.

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Re: unusual palmar dermatoglyphics

Post  Patti on Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:09 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Primitive refers to primates. Notice the book also contains many primate examples and their second book is entirely based on primates.
...

Smile ... No-no, that's not a correct interpretation for the word 'primitive' (though I understand your association):

Because on page 168 Cummins & Midlo clearly describe how 'primitiveness' obviously can be associated with 'primates', but both are definitely not the same:

"... the pards afford an indirect approach to the question of the primitiveness of pattern. In primates the apparently primitive volar pad is an elevation with a circumscribed base and a more or less pointed summit. This conformation of a pad is developmentally correlated with the presence of a whorl (Chap.11). It may be assumed therefore that the whorl is the primitive pattern type and that other pattern types are advanced, being correlated with regressive changes of pads."


PS. They also use the word 'primitiveness' in the perspective of racial differences (see page 264), and on page 280 they use the word 'primitiveness' in the perspective of criminality (and prositution). Which clearly illustrates that how they used the word 'primitive' is not bound to primates at all.

Interestingly Cummins & Midlo say the opposite about the evolution of patterns and point out that the more intelligent and dexterious have whorls and the degenerative pattern of the arch is more primal. That's in the book "Dermatoglyphics in Primates". I'll be more specific later.

Regardless of the meaning of the word primitive, they use the word "typical" even when mentioning three triradii for the whorl on the hypothenar.

You have still failed to show that a whorl on the palm "must" have three triradii.
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Re: unusual palmar dermatoglyphics

Post  Patti on Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:25 pm



Here is one discussion. There's another more explicite statement that I'll scan when I come across it.
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