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VII - Can Mental Illness be Diagnosed from the Palm?I

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Re: VII - Can Mental Illness be Diagnosed from the Palm?I

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Dec 24, 2014 12:15 pm

yogiman wrote:Well, as this goes against the traditional view, that means that traditional palmistry must have been wrong. As a consequence, all professional palmists on this forum will make themselves guilty of a suggestive reading approach.  And the reason that I put faith in palmistry is that it has a long and universal tradition. So I am not sure whether  I understand you well. At the end of -the spellbinding power of palmistry- Fincham gives an example read. Is his approach fluid instead of fixed?

Well, basically I believe that the traditions in the field of hand reading are way too much focussed on individual hand signs; because individual hand signs (in isolation) are in general not reliable at all - at best only in a small number of cases they APPEAR to be reliable, though often this turns out to be a minority of cases.

Theories in the literature usually work according the principle:

hand sign 1 = X, and hand sign 2 = Y, etc,;

(However, using both elements inside this principles does not really represent a combination, as it basically only represents a summation)

A true combination in the perspective of hand reading requires something like this principle:

hand sign 1 + hand sign 2 + hand sign 3 = Z

(Where hand sign 1 in isolation does not represent significant specified meaning at all to get associated with X, and the same goes for hand sign 2 and 3 regarding in respective Y and Z).

What I am trying to describe here represents a fundamental conceptual tradition in the hand reading literature, but this tradition actually represents an oversimplification of reality... because regarding individual hand signs there is basically always a game of chance involved, but most hand readers do not express much awareness of this inside their readings.

I hope I have now managed to explain things more properly?


PS. I realize these conceptual considerations are sort of off-topic here, however, I do think that these considerations can become helpful to understand the link between mental problems & the hand more properly.

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Re: VII - Can Mental Illness be Diagnosed from the Palm?I

Post  yogiman on Wed Dec 24, 2014 12:41 pm

Lynn wrote:
yogiman wrote:Dear Lynn,
don't try to distort the facts.

yogiman, I would appreciate an answer to my question:
How am I distorting facts / which facts am I distorting?
thanks

Though I am always looking out for your expertise responses, at the same time I am aware of my prejudice that your approach is more professional, whereas Martijn's approach is scientific.

But I do have to say sorry, because I thought that you were twisting the man's fate line into a passion line. Though I read now  in -the spellbinding power of palmistry- on the top of page 104:"Note that only lines or sections of lines pointing towards the middle finger are true Fire lines."
I have not been accurate in the description, because the man has a clear straight line going from the centre of the palm at the palm base towards the beginning of the ringfinger, like an arrow which just misses it's target.


Last edited by yogiman on Wed Dec 24, 2014 8:30 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : passion line instead of fire line)

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Re: VII - Can Mental Illness be Diagnosed from the Palm?I

Post  yogiman on Wed Dec 24, 2014 8:40 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
yogiman wrote:Well, as this goes against the traditional view, that means that traditional palmistry must have been wrong. As a consequence, all professional palmists on this forum will make themselves guilty of a suggestive reading approach.  And the reason that I put faith in palmistry is that it has a long and universal tradition. So I am not sure whether  I understand you well. At the end of -the spellbinding power of palmistry- Fincham gives an example read. Is his approach fluid instead of fixed?

Well, basically I believe that the traditions in the field of hand reading are way too much focussed on individual hand signs; because individual hand signs (in isolation) are in general not reliable at all - at best only in a small number of cases they APPEAR to be reliable, though often this turns out to be a minority of cases.

Theories in the literature usually work according the principle:

hand sign 1 = X, and hand sign 2 = Y, etc,;

(However, using both elements inside this principles does not really represent a combination, as it basically only represents a summation)

A true combination in the perspective of hand reading requires something like this principle:

hand sign 1 + hand sign 2 + hand sign 3 = Z

(Where hand sign 1 in isolation does not represent significant specified meaning at all to get associated with X, and the same goes for hand sign 2 and 3 regarding in respective Y and Z).

What I am trying to describe here represents a fundamental conceptual tradition in the hand reading literature, but this tradition actually represents an oversimplification of reality... because regarding individual hand signs there is basically always a game of chance involved, but most hand readers do not express much awareness of this inside their readings.

I hope I have now managed to explain things more properly?


PS. I realize these conceptual considerations are sort of off-topic here, however, I do think that these considerations can become helpful to understand the link between mental problems & the hand more properly.

But what do we do with the tradional meanings of the lines?
Doesn't it get too complicated?
Is there anyone who reads hands in this way?
For every discipline there is a teacher, but who is going to teach this?

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Re: VII - Can Mental Illness be Diagnosed from the Palm?I

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Dec 25, 2014 10:24 am

yogiman wrote:
But what do we do with the tradional meanings of the lines?
Doesn't it get too complicated?
Is there anyone who reads hands in this way?
For every discipline there is a teacher, but who is going to teach this?

Ad 1) Well, first of all: be aware that there are multiple traditions in the field of hand reading, which together present (many) conflicting elements.
Ad 2) What it takes is a re-focus of theories on themes such as personality traits & medical issues (instead of theories focussed on individual hand signs). It's sort of more a matter of discipline of thought, rather than complication.
Ad 3) I already practice it whenever I can, and you can find the evidence in most of my research projects (e.g. the multi-perspective hand reading).
Ad 4) Maybe that is sort of irrelevant; by the way, be aware: a revolution is hardly ever started by teachers who teach traditional concepts.

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Re: VII - Can Mental Illness be Diagnosed from the Palm?I

Post  yogiman on Thu Dec 25, 2014 11:05 am

Ad 1) Well, first of all: be aware that there are multiple traditions in the field of hand reading, which together present (many) conflicting elements.

I have seen books of different authors, and as far as western palmistry goes there is definitely a rough general consensus about lines and dermatoglyphs. And besides, in astrology you see different systems based on different premisses, each of which is whole in itself.

However, it is suspect that no professional palmists mix into this discussion. Apparently they have no strong case.

Ad 2) What it takes is a re-focus of theories on themes such as personality traits & medical issues (instead of theories focussed on individual hand signs). It's sort of more a matter of discipline of thought, rather than complication.

I hope chapter 10 of -the spellbinding power of palmistry- will be useful for this approach.

Ad 3) I already practice it whenever I can, and you can find the evidence in most of my research projects (e.g. the multi-perspective hand reading).

I am sure you have a profound knowledge of tradional palmistry. Is this of any help in your multiperspective approach?

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Re: VII - Can Mental Illness be Diagnosed from the Palm?I

Post  Lynn on Thu Dec 25, 2014 10:31 pm

yogiman wrote:
Lynn wrote:
yogiman wrote:Dear Lynn,
don't try to distort the facts.

yogiman, I would appreciate an answer to my question:
How am I distorting facts / which facts am I distorting?
thanks

Though I am always looking out for your expertise responses, at the same time I am aware of my prejudice that your approach is more professional, whereas Martijn's approach is scientific.

But I do have to say sorry, because I thought that you were twisting the man's fate line into a passion line. Though I read now  in -the spellbinding power of palmistry- on the top of page 104:"Note that only lines or sections of lines pointing towards the middle finger are true Fire lines."
I have not been accurate in the description, because the man has a clear straight line going from the centre of the palm at the palm base towards the beginning of the ringfinger, like an arrow which just misses it's target.
hello yogiman Thanks for your reply and your apology. I have no idea why you thought I was twisting the man's fate line into a passion line, when I didn't mention anything about passion line!
I think I understood your description of the clear straight line from centre base of palm to ring finger, but (as it goes to ring finger rather than middle finger) I still wonder why you class it as a fate line and not as an apollo or sun line?

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Re: VII - Can Mental Illness be Diagnosed from the Palm?I

Post  yogiman on Fri Dec 26, 2014 8:21 am

I was a second time mistaken. I do mean an apollo line. But I still find it weird, like a man transformed into woman.

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Re: VII - Can Mental Illness be Diagnosed from the Palm?I

Post  Lynn on Fri Dec 26, 2014 11:25 am

yogiman wrote:I was a second time mistaken. I do mean an apollo line. But I still find it weird, like a man transformed into woman.
I don't understand ...." like a man transformed into woman" ??
Any chance of getting a picture of this guy's hands?

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Re: VII - Can Mental Illness be Diagnosed from the Palm?I

Post  yogiman on Fri Dec 26, 2014 1:57 pm

I feel some moral resistance. Next time I will see him I will take a phone picture, but don't ask for details.

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Re: VII - Can Mental Illness be Diagnosed from the Palm?I

Post  yogiman on Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:49 pm

...because individual hand signs (in isolation) are in general not reliable at all - at best only in a small number of cases they APPEAR to be reliable, though often this turns out to be a minority of cases.

Hé Martijn, it was a long search, but I have found a post from you in which you do a traditional handread:
In your case the Sydney line in your right appears to affect (block) you ability to create purpose in your life, because the upper part of your fate line appears to origin from the Sydney line. Your left hand look less troublesome regarding this aspect, however the length of the fate line could indicate that this theme might take a little more time in order to manifest.

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Re: VII - Can Mental Illness be Diagnosed from the Palm?I

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:00 am

yogiman wrote:
...because individual hand signs (in isolation) are in general not reliable at all - at best only in a small number of cases they APPEAR to be reliable, though often this turns out to be a minority of cases.

Hé Martijn, it was a long search, but I have found a post from you in which you do a traditional handread:
In your case the Sydney line in your right appears to affect (block) you ability to create purpose in your life, because the upper part of your fate line appears to origin from the Sydney line. Your left hand look less troublesome regarding this aspect, however the length of the fate line could indicate that this theme might take a little more time in order to manifest.

Well, I at least tried to use there the combination of various line features (involving the head line & fate line) to substantiate my reading there. And I used both hands, so I wouldn't call my approach 'traditional' there - especially since I am talking there about a 'constellation' and in the past a psychologist from the UK (Rowan Bayne) has presented a study which has demonstrated the start of the fate may correlate with personal development issues..

Today I would probably have tried to add another dimension of the hand (maybe hand shape or fingers) as well, because only then it would become a 'multi-perspective' hand reading.

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Re: VII - Can Mental Illness be Diagnosed from the Palm?I

Post  yogiman on Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:04 pm

At least in this instance tradional interpretation has proven to be right. I hope that there will be more instances, so that I can keep my books.

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Re: VII - Can Mental Illness be Diagnosed from the Palm?I

Post  yogiman on Tue Dec 30, 2014 2:55 pm

Here are the photos of my dear subject. I like to add that he is not fully mentally handicapped. He can read, and is able to make sentences, though he usually doesn't do so. His head movements can be very quick, and his thinking extremely slow. He is not very able to interpret the things around him. He likes music, and to watch television, but seems more to register than to understand, with an exception to the weather forecast, which he is very interested in. He also likes delicious foods, and is an extremely slow eater. He spents the time with drawing, and looking outside the window to the clouds and weather circumstances. He follows his twin brother, who is not handicapped but autistic, during day and night. He is not aware of the evil in the world, is taken care of, is healthy, and seems to be more contented than the average human being.

All fingers have ulnair loops, except for the left index finger, which has a radial loop. He has got a loop between index and middlefinger (loop of leadership).
The flexibility of thumb and fingers is average. He holds his hands loose or weak.





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Re: VII - Can Mental Illness be Diagnosed from the Palm?I

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:47 pm


Yogiman, your guy appears to have a Sydney line in both of his hand (though maybe both hands can best be described as an 'incomplete Sydney line', not sure).

Not sure, but he also appears to have characteristics associated with a conic hand shape.

This combination is very common in people who have mental handicap.

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fingerprints

Post  jeanette on Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:04 am

Martin,
Would you tell us what type of fingerprints would be expected to be seen on this type of hand.
Thanks
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Re: VII - Can Mental Illness be Diagnosed from the Palm?I

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:18 am

jeanette wrote:Martin,
Would you tell us what type of fingerprints would be expected to be seen on this type of hand.
Thanks

Hi Jeanette,

That would depend very much on whether there is a specific cause known for his mental handicap. If such a diagnosis is missing then it is hardly possible to predict the set of fingerprints, because in many of those people the set of fingerprints turns out to be just ordinary.


wave


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: VII - Can Mental Illness be Diagnosed from the Palm?I

Post  jeanette on Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:01 pm

Thanks Martijn.
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Re: VII - Can Mental Illness be Diagnosed from the Palm?I

Post  Lynn on Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:59 pm

hi yogiman
thanks for the pictures. I am viewing on a small screen so maybe not seeing clearly.
You described his head line as not long & not short, but he has a long headline.
I can't see the line you mentioned as being his fate line (which I queried as Apollo line) "clear straight line going from the centre of the palm at the palm base towards the beginning of the ringfinger." But I can see a fate line going towards middle finger.

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Re: VII - Can Mental Illness be Diagnosed from the Palm?I

Post  yogiman on Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:39 pm

You described his head line as not long & not short, but he has a long headline.

Yes, that's how I remembered it. This shows how perception is manipulated by expectation. You even see a split end. But the important thing is that it is competely out of line with traditional handreading. What I like to add is that I have the feeling with him that his emotional intelligence is not so bad at all, like some hidden thought process. i can tell that sometimes by his eyes.But he does have an extraordinary low IQ.

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Re: VII - Can Mental Illness be Diagnosed from the Palm?I

Post  yogiman on Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:52 am

Here are the photos of his fraternal twinbrother, who is diagnosed autistic. He is very different, and wants to speak quicker than he is able to. As a consequence he stutters and stumbles a lot, and makes a nervous impression, also because he is not so sure of himself. But he has a good intelligence, although with a certain narrowness, and is very curious about things. He has a nice character,  youthful and laughing, as if the positive things of puberty remained. Though he is multi-interested, his main thing is mechanics, and he likes to work with his hands. *That made the task more problemetic to discern his dermatoglyphics, because he has rough hands and his skin ridges are mostly worn out. With difficulty I saw the following dermatoglyphics from first to fourth finger:
right: whorl, ulnar, whorl, ulnar
left:   whorl, peacock, whorl, ulnar or whorl
His thumbs both have a whorl, and are a little bit stiff. He is indeed going his own way, bordering to egocentricity, in contrast to his brother. I saw no loops on his hands. His little finger is long, which surprises me.

*Fortunately we have the opportunity to edit any time. In relation to his long headline going into the moon area, I want to add that he often talks about his past life (year after year), while no one is taking him serious.










Last edited by yogiman on Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:53 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add some information)

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Re: VII - Can Mental Illness be Diagnosed from the Palm?I

Post  Lynn on Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:41 am

what is a crown fingerprint?

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Re: VII - Can Mental Illness be Diagnosed from the Palm?I

Post  yogiman on Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:38 pm

Apologizes, the dutch word is -krans- which can be translated to -crown-. So I mean -whorl-. I will correct it in the post, so that Martijn can remove this one.

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Re: VII - Can Mental Illness be Diagnosed from the Palm?I

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:16 am

Lynn wrote:what is a crown fingerprint?

Yogiman is referring to what we know as a whorl (a crown is round as well).

king

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Re: VII - Can Mental Illness be Diagnosed from the Palm?I

Post  Lynn on Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:27 am

ok thanks for explaining. Smile

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Re: VII - Can Mental Illness be Diagnosed from the Palm?I

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:10 pm


Here's a brand new 'map' for the hand which might become helpful to learn how to approach this topic for different types of mental problems (in terms of internalizing vs. externalizing problem behaviors):



Source: HandResearch.com


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

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