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Fate, Genetics and Free Will/Environment

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Fate, Genetics and Free Will/Environment

Post  Patti on Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:17 pm

Do people really feel they are doomed to some kind of predicted fate or genetic weakness?

Personally, I think we have free will and control over our environment which influences our situations.

Genetics and predictions (astrological/palmistry etc.) are simply road maps, data, and directions and in my opinion, we have the option to provide the environment or circumstances to create a new road map or alter the old one.

What do you think?
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Re: Fate, Genetics and Free Will/Environment

Post  waqar.an on Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:26 pm

Patti wrote:Do people really feel they are doomed to some kind of predicted fate or genetic weakness?
What do you think?
hi Patti;

If we dissect what destiny or fate is it would be as following:

Destiny<---Character<----Habits<-----Action<----Thoughts

As Shakespeare said all the world is a stage, and all the men and women merely players.

Similar to a drama, in life there are different characters and these characters have particular habits and are destined to a definite end. Hero or heroin dare to do the ultimate task and bring peace. Villain are destined to some end based upon their skills and habits. Comedians in that film throw punch lines and parents and other roles play as per the story.

It all start from thoughts and if we change our thoughts and acts and start different habits we can assume different character and can have destiny of choice. Thumbs up!

There was a character Oracle in movie Matrix, similarly to palmist or astrologer she could only tell Neo what was possible based upon calculations and couldn't tell past a person's choice. But if we keep thinking within our choices we could not have invented so many things. Air plane was not a choice of travel just 200 years back. Lines literary change and are always in sync with the person. we are not dependent on lines for actions, however lines do depend upon us for change. Thanks!

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Re: Fate, Genetics and Free Will/Environment

Post  Patti on Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:01 pm

waqar.an wrote:
Patti wrote:Do people really feel they are doomed to some kind of predicted fate or genetic weakness?
What do you think?
hi Patti;

If we dissect what destiny or fate is it would be as following:

Destiny<---Character<----Habits<-----Action<----Thoughts

As Shakespeare said all the world is a stage, and all the men and women merely players.

Similar to a drama, in life there are different characters and these characters have particular habits and are destined to a definite end. Hero or heroin dare to do the ultimate task and bring peace. Villain are destined to some end based upon their skills and habits. Comedians in that film throw punch lines and parents and other roles play as per the story.

It all start from thoughts and if we change our thoughts and acts and start different habits we can assume different character and can have destiny of choice. Thumbs up!

There was a character Oracle in movie Matrix, similarly to palmist or astrologer she could only tell Neo what was possible based upon calculations and couldn't tell past a person's choice. But if we keep thinking within our choices we could not have invented so many things. Air plane was not a choice of travel just 200 years back. Lines literary change and are always in sync with the person. we are not dependent on lines for actions, however lines do depend upon us for change. Thanks!

Thank you Wagar! I think from your response you are on the side of free will or the ability to change what might seem inevitable.

The character Oracle is a good analogy! We can only see a possible future based on the current circumstances - each change or influence creates a new or different future. I have seen that with tarot card readings. People who read the cards a second and third time to see if they get a different outcome gets readings that reflect the previous insight and reaction.

The quote from Shakespeare reminds me of the chorus from this song:

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Re: Fate, Genetics and Free Will/Environment

Post  waqar.an on Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:24 pm

Patti wrote:Thank you Wagar! I think from your response you are on the side of free will or the ability to change what might seem inevitable.
yep and thank you for a good song. btw it is waqar with Q. wave

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Re: Fate, Genetics and Free Will/Environment

Post  sv-b3 on Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:36 pm

The source of thoughts, intelligence, wave length of emotions, and mind are regulated by gene and environment. The environment consist family and society. Thus, the thoughts, emotion, mind, gene, environment are all not our options. Before we learn all this stuffs, we reach our old age. so, I think, destiny wins before us. scratch
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Re: Fate, Genetics and Free Will/Environment

Post  Lynn on Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:28 am

I like this topic of discussion. Smile
I remember teaching a palmistry class & expressing opinions similar to Patti's. One of my students strongly disagreed. She thinks that whilst we make choices and changes in our lives, we are destined or fated to make those choices, and that free will is an illusion.

Some of us have the luxury of being able to make more choices and changes than others are able to do because of circumstances. I am aware of what mohadis23 said about environment. The environment into which we are born is an 'accident of our birth' (or fate). I am very aware that being born in Uk I have much more freedom of choice than eg a starving person in a remote African village, or someone born in a country where there is a dictatorship.

Also in the modern western world we have much more freedom of choice than in other places historical or modern. Thinking, for example, of when the 'child lines' originated in palmistry literature (and perhaps why we no longer find them to be accurate). In medieval times, if they were fertile they had children and kept on having them, whereas we have more choice over if/when/how we have children. Yet in modern China for last 30+ years people do not have that choice because of the one child restriction.

Fate will throw some things at us over which we have no control. But still, I think we have some control over how we deal with it. But maybe that is also an illusion of mine, as
waqar said about habits - we deal with things the way we habitually deal with things!

which reminds me of this quote
"If you always think what you've always thought,
You will always do what you've always done.
If you always do what you've always done,
You will always get what you've always got.
If you always get what you've always got,
You will always think what you've always thought."

Wink

(edit -oops long post, and I didn't even mention genetics yet!) Razz

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Re: Fate, Genetics and Free Will/Environment

Post  Patti on Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:23 am

I've been reading a number of articles and books recently that relate to the life of cells, and also genetics and epigenetics.

It is fascinating to think that we are a colony or community of cells living and working in harmony (if we are healthy and balanced) as one being. Like bees in a hive. Perhaps the bees are more advanced than we. They can send a bee here and a bee there, but all of our body parts stay attached. Wink

Our cells for the most part once differentiated (or have an assigned task) stay on task. But sometimes they turn against us and become cancerous. Perhaps this is their 'free will'. Or it is the environment.

Our genes according to scientific research cannot turn themselves on and off or activate on their own, they must be triggered by something in the environment.

The environment is therefore an equal player in our 'fate'. As Lynn points out, sometimes the environment is more restricted, and people have a lack of free choice or lack of healthy nourishment for the body and soul.

What inspired this topic besides my current studies was a member's comments that seemed to relate to resigning to a fated life. Even if we are restricted by our locale and the authorities in place, we still have control over our attitudes and reactions.

(sorry Waqar, I've been calling you Way-ghar in my mind - I'll change that thought! wave )





Last edited by Patti on Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Fate, Genetics and Free Will/Environment

Post  Patti on Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:28 am

mohadis23 wrote:The source of thoughts, intelligence, wave length of emotions, and mind are regulated by gene and environment. The environment consist family and society. Thus, the thoughts, emotion, mind, gene, environment are all not our options. Before we learn all this stuffs, we reach our old age. so, I think, destiny wins before us. scratch

Funny how that is.... as years go by we figure stuff out, become enlightened....and then we're old! There must be a here-after!
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Re: Fate, Genetics and Free Will/Environment

Post  Parender on Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:16 am

Environment is greater than human being who definitely influences us and our destiny. We get environment by chance over which we have little or no control as we cannot choose our parents. Yes, we have free will but it cannot work all the time. We cannot discard genetics. Genetics work. What is heredity then?

By using and studying human hands or knowledge of astrology, understanding what they indicate, we can control shape or alter the “final result” of course.

There is no doubt that to get a “final result” or achievement in any game match or area, or to realize our ambitions or to fulfill our particular earnest desire or to enjoy the taste of success, we must have some definite aim in our life; then we have to put great personal efforts with total concentration and with our full fortitude and energy to accomplish it, but, that has produced finality must be measured in personal terms that are relative to the framework the “final result” We must accept and believe the fact whether we like it or not, that our personal’ destiny’ is the ultimate crystallization of ourselves. In fact our destiny lies within ourselves. We make our fortune and call it a ‘fate’ or ‘destiny’

Lines are gauges on our hands. One very important gauge or meter on our hand is Fate Line which denotes the individual materialistic aspects and its length and characteristic or a person’s Fate, is “determined by the environmental experiences in our childhood or even before our birth”.

I think there is nothing in the world for knowledge besides the hand, which is given to mankind like a book to read.
Enjoy!
Parender Sethi
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Re: Fate, Genetics and Free Will/Environment

Post  waqar.an on Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:34 am

Patti wrote:Funny how that is.... as years go by we figure stuff out, become enlightened....and then we're old! There must be a here-after!
why not! billions believe in it and we know believes become realities. Human mind is very fast leaning machine. phobics learn phobia in split seconds. Although phobia is a bad thing but it tell us the learning speed. more emotional we become about something faster we learn it. we can not fight time and it is a sad reality but what is gone is gone and no body can't do anything about it anyway.

Parender wrote: We cannot discard genetics. Genetics work. What is heredity then?
I agree with Parender. One interested in genetics should go through the work of Richard Dawkins. According to him human are just refinery machines for genes. We are carriers and our duty is to protect our ancestral chain of genes, refine it by exploring new environments and learning new things and then passing out to next generation by selecting best mates.

Human spreading through out the world and going into space, learning new ideas, competing and fighting to test their idea's strength and survival aptitude is mere a refining process of genes. Every person has only two purpose in life; to survive and to replicate.
Genes also favor cross culture and mating from far off places, that's why world is becoming literary a global village. Genes have learned across generations that mating within family and close cousins do not serve them best so these practices are outlawed and are punished even by genes them-self. Marriage before 18 year of age is discouraged due to the fact that there ain't enough times for one's genes to learn and refine before passing out to the next.
All idealogies and cultural stuff are just a cover to satisfy a logical mind... scratch

Strange! isn't it? Thanks!

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Re: Fate, Genetics and Free Will/Environment

Post  waqar.an on Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:11 am

Found following interesting article while looking for Epigenetic. may be of interest to other...

Why Your DNA Isn't Your Destiny

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Re: Fate, Genetics and Free Will/Environment

Post  Patti on Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:06 pm

waqar.an wrote:Found following interesting article while looking for Epigenetic. may be of interest to other...

Why Your DNA Isn't Your Destiny

Good article Waqar!
I'm in the midst of reading The Biology of Belief by Bruce H. Lipton. In early chapters he mentions Lamarck and his epigenetic theories nearly 200 years ago and how the medical community ridiculed him for all these years - and now they find he was right after all. There was even strict pressure on everyone to continue that ridicule so it was even more remarkable when evidence began to surface that was undeniable.

In the article you have shared, it's interesting that those that overate or were well fed had offspring that had shorter lives and those that nearly starved lived longer. You'd think the starving ancestors would have something lacking yet it's the other way around.
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Re: Fate, Genetics and Free Will/Environment

Post  waqar.an on Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:36 pm

Patti wrote:Good article Waqar!
I'm in the midst of reading The Biology of Belief by Bruce H. Lipton. In early chapters he mentions Lamarck and his epigenetic theories nearly 200 years ago and how the medical community ridiculed him for all these years - and now they find he was right after all. There was even strict pressure on everyone to continue that ridicule so it was even more remarkable when evidence began to surface that was undeniable.
There are few actual scientists and doctors on the planet and they prefer to not be called that. Rest are just white coat herd and go with the flow...Very Happy. Isn't it a irony that major scientific discoveries are by chance or luck. (Though the discoverers were prepared and caught the moment). This herd and some of media has made science more like a cult, religion and a control mechanism. They are been blinded by peer social pressure and do not seek truth.

Patti wrote:In the article you have shared, it's interesting that those that overate or were well fed had offspring that had shorter lives and those that nearly starved lived longer. You'd think the starving ancestors would have something lacking yet it's the other way around.
nice observation Patti. i would have to cut the calories now... Oh...nooo!

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Re: Fate, Genetics and Free Will/Environment

Post  waqar.an on Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:34 am

Spoken of science herds and studying them, I came across of following program of Richard Dawkin. He seems to be in the front row of this herd. In the below video he go to a New Age fair in Briton. Can any British here recognize him who might be in that fair?

He is active proponent of theory of evolution which is going on yet his absolute certainty about reasoning reason that he has completely evolved... rolling on the floor


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Here's something on testosterone...

Post  caledonia on Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:51 am

Martijn may have some thoughts on the phenomenon given the 2D:4D effect and testosterone.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Testosterone Affects Gaze Aversion From Angry Faces Outside of Conscious Awareness

David Terburg1,2,
Henk Aarts1 and
Jack van Honk1,2

+ Author Affiliations

1Department of Psychology, Utrecht University
2Department of Psychiatry and Mental Health, University of Cape Town

David Terburg, Utrecht University—Psychonomy, Heidelberglaan 2, Utrecht, Utrecht 3584 CS, The Netherlands E-mail: d.terburg@uu.nl

Abstract

Throughout vertebrate phylogeny, testosterone has motivated animals to obtain and maintain social dominance—a fact suggesting that unconscious primordial brain mechanisms are involved in social dominance. In humans, however, the prevailing view is that the neocortex is in control of primordial drives, and testosterone is thought to promote social dominance via conscious feelings of superiority, indefatigability, strength, and anger. Here we show that testosterone administration in humans prolongs dominant staring into the eyes of threatening faces that are viewed outside of awareness, without affecting consciously experienced feelings. These findings reveal that testosterone motivates social dominance in humans in much the same ways that it does in other vertebrates: involuntarily, automatically, and unconsciously.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have added the bold font.

Caledonia

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Re: Fate, Genetics and Free Will/Environment

Post  waqar.an on Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:19 am

coffee and exercise made changes to gene. Environment effect the genes the way one react to it.
Exercise and caffeine have beneficial effects on DNA

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Just thought I'd pass this along

Post  caledonia on Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:16 am

for anyone academically inclined...Dr. David Terburg looks an approachable sort of fellow if you want to frame a palmistry (appropriate academic term here!) based research question.

http://www.fss.uu.nl/psn/web/people/personal/SENSlab/David_Terburg/index.htm

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More on trust and testosterone....

Post  caledonia on Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:05 am

http://www.pnas.org/content/107/25/11149.full

Does the 2D:4D ratio also have similar correlation with trust (via testosterone????)....

One would expect it to, but a contrary finding would be even more interesting; what then, underlies the 2d:4d phenomenon?

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Contary findings like this....

Post  caledonia on Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:24 am

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.22044/abstract

Abstract

This study aimed to examine the relationship between the ratio of the length of the second and fourth digits (2D:4D) and locomotor muscle strength. Furthermore, two putative mechanisms that might explain any relationship of 2D:4D with muscle strength, specifically serum total and free testosterone, and androgen receptor genotype CAG repeat number (AR CAGn) were investigated. Seventy-seven healthy young Caucasian men completed a thorough assessment of isometric and isokinetic knee extensor strength, with unilateral measurements averaged across both legs and repeated on two occasions. The lengths of the second and fourth fingers of each hand were measured to calculate 2D:4D ratio. Serum total testosterone (TT) and serum hormone binding globulin (SHBG) were measured by ELISA and used to calculate free testosterone (FT). AR CAGn was determined by PCR and microchip electrophoresis. There was no association between mean, left or right hand 2D:4D and isometric or isokinetic knee extensor strength (all, R < 0.12, P > 0.32). TT and FT were unrelated to mean, left or right hand 2D:4D ratio (all, R < 0.12, P > 0.34). Finally AR CAGn was not associated with mean, right or left hand 2D:4D ratio (all, R < 0.20, P > 0.10). This study found no evidence of 2D:4D being related to locomotor muscle strength, TT, FT, or AR CAGn. The reported association of 2D:4D with sports performance does not seem to be explained by an influence on locomotor muscle strength, and could be due to an effect on motor or cognitive skills. Am J Phys Anthropol, 2012. © 2012 Wiley Periodicals, Inc.

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Re: Fate, Genetics and Free Will/Environment

Post  Patti on Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:04 pm

caledonia wrote:http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.22044/abstract

Abstract

This study aimed to examine the relationship between the ratio of the length of the second and fourth digits (2D:4D) and locomotor muscle strength. Furthermore, two putative mechanisms that might explain any relationship of 2D:4D with muscle strength, specifically serum total and free testosterone, and androgen receptor genotype CAG repeat number (AR CAGn) were investigated. Seventy-seven healthy young Caucasian men completed a thorough assessment of isometric and isokinetic knee extensor strength, with unilateral measurements averaged across both legs and repeated on two occasions. The lengths of the second and fourth fingers of each hand were measured to calculate 2D:4D ratio. Serum total testosterone (TT) and serum hormone binding globulin (SHBG) were measured by ELISA and used to calculate free testosterone (FT). AR CAGn was determined by PCR and microchip electrophoresis. There was no association between mean, left or right hand 2D:4D and isometric or isokinetic knee extensor strength (all, R < 0.12, P > 0.32). TT and FT were unrelated to mean, left or right hand 2D:4D ratio (all, R < 0.12, P > 0.34). Finally AR CAGn was not associated with mean, right or left hand 2D:4D ratio (all, R < 0.20, P > 0.10). This study found no evidence of 2D:4D being related to locomotor muscle strength, TT, FT, or AR CAGn. The reported association of 2D:4D with sports performance does not seem to be explained by an influence on locomotor muscle strength, and could be due to an effect on motor or cognitive skills. Am J Phys Anthropol, 2012. © 2012 Wiley Periodicals, Inc.

Interesting report showing that it might not be about being stronger that might allow those with a longer ring to index finger ratio be better athletes but likely their abilities to better use their motor and/or cognitive skills!
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That's exactly right....

Post  caledonia on Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:46 am

It may be that this 2D:4D ratio is something akin to the "g" factor underlying IQ scores but for "skill in movement". In my opinion both are facets of what is called "intelligence" in its broadest sense.



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Re: Fate, Genetics and Free Will/Environment

Post  Patti on Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:35 pm

waqar.an wrote:coffee and exercise made changes to gene. Environment effect the genes the way one react to it.
Exercise and caffeine have beneficial effects on DNA

Hi Waqar!!!!!!! wave

I almost missed completely that you posted this week! Was just rereading the thread and noticed 2011, 2011 and suddenly there's you and 2012!!

Nice to see you back happy move
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Is there any point in articles like this.....

Post  caledonia on Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:59 pm


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Re: Fate, Genetics and Free Will/Environment

Post  Patti on Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:27 pm


"Laboratory experiments show that before we become aware of making a decision, our brains have already laid the groundwork for it."

I think this is support for our abilities to read the preferences, and reactions to experiences that show in features in our hands, giving us insight into the individual processes that goes into decision making.
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And here is Douglas Parker with his latest

Post  caledonia on Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:27 am

prediction, because of Saturn, Jupiter, Venus, Mercury, etc, etc, and surprisingly, Chiron from Greek mythology.

He thinks Mitt Romney is going to be next president of the USA.

http://www.astrology-reading.com.au/USA_Presidential_Election_2012_Astrology_Horoscope_Predictions_Forecast.html





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