Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Patti Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:37 pm

ps.
Can this fate line not fit the description for the thenar crease, should be the question. At all places it can easily fit the description for a life line. Now could a fate line that only appears above the head line aiming towards/from the fingers be a life line, no of course not. So bottom line, you aunt's line is located and contained in a location that is common for a life line. Trying to associate it's constitution still isn't important here, it is it's placement.

Just noticed the new example. I'd say the inner line is a short distal section, the longer middle crease serves double duty as both fate and life, and the crease farther away from the thenar eminence is a finger crease. I'd read all three pieces in combination. The middle line has a break away branch that continues to the fingers. The distal section of the life line has a break away section that proceeds toward the wrist. This middle crease serves the function of dividing the hypothenar from the thenar and acting as the solitary crease aiming to (or from) the carpals.

**Parender** Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:49 pm

Hi Friends,

I think some will like to see Bulle Shah’s latest palm as how it looks like after three decades, so here it is:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/72696129@N06/

I know and can tell you almost all major and minor events/things about him if you would like to know to understand the life line or fate line.

At the age of 32 when I took the print he was very much desperate and even wanted to end his life or go to one particular religious place in Himalayas never to return. He did not do that following my advice. He struggled and seen ups and downs.He started a new business at the age of 36 to fail ultimately. He was again in severe difficulties at the age of 53. But, since then everything turned up in his favor.

I thought the longer line is the directional longitudinal transverse much related to ‘luck’ or ‘destiny’ which starts from the base of the palm thicker and deep. Here, the fate line stops at Head Line so it cannot be a good Fate Line at this stage in his life shows that he was gradually losing interest or getting bored in his father’s business, perhaps a miscalculation done by him. He wanted to indulge in his field of interest of a healer. So, he could not get through the world comfortably and successfully then. But, all wells that ends well.
I am telling this because in general, the formation of Fate Line indicates the degree of individual satisfaction with the living conditions. Yes, both in the material and in the more personal and emotional sense.

There are many points from which the Line of Fate may commence. The Fate Line may rise from the base of the palm, from the Life Line, wrist, Mount of Moon, Line of Head, Line of Heart, in the middle of the palm or from inside of the Life Line. Life line here is taking so much area around not only completely encircling the full of Venus but reaching out to the Mount of Moon under the ring finger! This is hard to believe.

It will be not exaggerate to tell that this was to be a line of capability (Apollo Line). Due to not favorable circumstances he was compelled to live a much compromised life, surrendering his strong wishes to be a healer that is he is now.

The small line near the wrist on the lower part of Venus is the influence line is not a Fate Line and it shows the person who influenced his career, created the difficulties or barriers for him to be met with in one's aim and so forth. Thanks.

Parender

Patti Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:29 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Finally, after 2 days of discussion...

I have taken another look at my aunt's hand print, and I discovered that I could even specify my position a little bit further.

Because while I have described that the central vertical line manifests in 3 parts in my first version of the picture... I would like to point out that based on the elements (LOCATIONS, PATH, DIRECTION and STRUCTURE) that I have mentioned, I could even point out that the 'curve' of the line parts suggest that we might even talk about 4 line parts: see the picture below!

And after considering the details again, I would say now that because of the 'curving away from the thenar' in the first 3 parts... in my perception only the 4th part presents an 'arbitrary' aspect - because that is the only part of which one can say that it kind of curves around the thenar.

Now, and if I take a look at the length of the 4th line part... it becomes more obvious that when this 'arbitrary' upper line would be taken as a 'another part of the life line', this part would not really make the 'short line' any longer!

On top of these observations... I think I can only add that the 'curving away' of the 3th line part is only very small... so that leaves in my approach a small 'arbitrary' issue, which I can accept anyone to reject.

Though formally this almost straight 3th line part does show a small curve that is more typical for a fate line than a life line... so I think this little detail does add some weight to my assessment to describe the full central vertical line - including all 4 line parts - as a fate!

The life line frequently pulls inward toward the thumb and back outward away from the thumb throughout its course. It also breaks and branches... as does your aunt's crease.

The description fits either a fate line or a life line.

Patti Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:51 pm

Parender wrote:

Hi Friends,

I think some will like to see Bulle Shah’s latest palm as how it looks like after three decades, so here it is:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/72696129@N06/

I know and can tell you almost all major and minor events/things about him if you would like to know to understand the life line or fate line.

At the age of 32 when I took the print he was very much desperate and even wanted to end his life or go to one particular religious place in Himalayas never to return. He did not do that following my advice. He struggled and seen ups and downs. He was again in severe difficulties at the age of 53. But, since then everything turned up in his favor.

I thought the longer line is the directional longitudinal transverse much related to ‘luck’ or ‘destiny’ which starts from the base of the palm thicker and deep. Here, the fate line stops at Head Line so it cannot be a good Fate Line at this stage in his life shows that he was gradually losing interest or getting bored in his father’s business, perhaps a miscalculation done by him. He wanted to indulge in his field of interest of a healer. So, he could not get through the world comfortably and successfully then. But, all wells that ends well.
I am telling this because in general, the formation of Fate Line indicates the degree of individual satisfaction with the living conditions. Yes, both in the material and in the more personal and emotional sense.

There are many points from which the Line of Fate may commence. The Fate Line may rise from the base of the palm, from the Life Line, wrist, Mount of Moon, Line of Head, Line of Heart, in the middle of the palm or from inside of the Life Line. Life line here is taking so much area around not only completely encircling the full of Venus but reaching out to the Mount of Moon under the ring finger! This is hard to believe.

It will be not exaggerate to tell that this was to be a line of capability (Apollo Line). Due to not favorable circumstances he was compelled to live a much compromised life, surrendering his strong wishes to be a healer that is he is now.

The small line near the wrist on the lower part of Venus is the influence line is not a Fate Line and it shows the person who influenced his career, created the difficulties or barriers for him to be met with in one's aim and so forth. Thanks.

Parender

Hi Parender,
Thank you for sharing!! Thanks!

Here is how I would describe the lines.
Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Parend10

I would read both lines together as relating to life line.

The purple arrows show where I see (reading down on both lines) the inner life line no longer curves outward. It weakens and becomes straighter. The outer line becomes stronger in appearance and begins to mark itself where the purple arrow points.

The gray lines are 'bridges' connecting the two creases and their energy. The lower one is near the time he connected with you. Perhaps you are part of that bridge helping him to the stronger life line and off the weaker one that had no energy to live left.

The pink arrows mark times where the inner life line has thinned out to almost nothing and the outer line begins to become stronger in appearance.

Stress markings appear on both lines between the purple arrows and the pink arrows. Above the purple arrows the inner line is marked and below the pink arrows the outer line is marked.

I see the fate line as beginning above the head line and rising from there. Its growth from there and that general time period matches his efforts to not just fade away like his inner life line's path was taking him down.

The outer line represents a more extroverted nature and that could be part of the reasoning for its energy to feel like a fate line instead. The life's direction is more influenced by outer things rather than retreating into an inner world.

The green lines show the path of the t triradius. Both longitudinal lines are within thenar boundaries in regards to dermatoglyphics. The upper green arrow points out where the t main line rising upward from the triradius cuts through the rising outer crease and moves radially. This is where this line breaks or seriously thins out.

I think we are looking at double life lines.

Thanks!

**Martijn (admin)** Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:20 pm

Patti wrote:You may need to read the chapter yourself, hopefully you have the book. Ashbaugh defines in detail, and with illustrations, the Major Flexion Creases, Minor Flexion Creases and Secondary Creases. The Girdle of Venus is in the Minor Flexion Crease category as the "Accessory Distal Transverse Flexure Crease". (in an earlier comment you said equating the 'mars line' to an accessory crease was like calling the Girdle of Venus an Accessory Crease... well, actually, he does!)

By the way, I am so surprised that you keep falling back on a book written prior to 1900 by Benham. Robert Ashbaugh's book is from a century later, 1999, and is based on accumulated scientific research and data.

And in regards to the 'quote from yesterday' I should have pointed out to look at the quote I highlighted in the uploaded image from the orthopedic book. The upper thenar crease and the lower thenar crease develop based on local conditions. This can result in differences in their directions and they end up not lining up with each other. The upper crease would not continue strongly across the thenar muscles and the lower crease would be between the thenar and the hypothenar.

Your aunt's longitudinal crease looks like the life line and the fate line have merged and as I said earlier, the resulting crease is serving double duty. I think it is the thenar section of the life line (which contains some fate line features) that divides the thenar from the hypothenar eminences. Other than that I think it is unimportant to break down bits and pieces of the crease and decide which piece serves for which function - as they are conjoined. (This is the simian version of the life/fate line connection It'd be like saying which stretch of line relates to feeling and which relates to thinking or some such division)

I hope you can show me something stronger than Benham or an opinion to support your view if you think differently.

Patti, I am not 'falling back' on Benham's work. I have only referred to it because it presents a visual example which only indicates that my position is at least supported by his work... after you asked me to present references supporting my view.

By the way, I have found an example in Tre McCamley's work 'Palm Decoder' - see example 2.5 describing a short life line + fate line (sorry, I only have the Dutch version).

Magda van Dijk speaks in her book 'Universele Handleeskunde' (Dutch title, page 164) about a short life line. She described e.g. the combination of a short life line + a long fate line... but she does not mention anything about lines 'taking over' nor something likewise at all.

And I noticed that Cheiro also does not talk about lines taking over either; he only describes:

"The shorter the line the shorter the life."

This makes 4 respected authors which present materials that kind of are in line with my position.

By the way Patti, I find your use of 'vocabulary' rather suggestive:

Because I notice that you now even talk about an 'upper thenar crease' and a 'lower thenar crease'... while all scientific definitions that you referred to do not present such descriptions all - because none of the definitions that you have presented to far suggests explicit that a thenar crease tends to develop as 2 parts (such a process-in-2-steps is as far as I know only know to be seen in the development of the distal transverse crease).

By fact, we know the prenatal studies have described that the thenar crease develops from the radial side of the 1st interdigital zone with a curve around the thenar to the wrist.

But I don't think that there is a likewise process known for the thenar crease (life line) as seen as described for the distal transverse crease (heart line) - for the distal transverse crease various sources described that it starts developing first as a line starting in the 2nd interdigital zone, then some time later another line starts developing below the 4th finger, and finally those 2 crease usually make a connection.

(Sorry, I am not aware of any source describing a likewise process for the thenar crease. So, if you have ever seen any materials describing a likewise process for the thenar crease... you are welcome to share those materials - but the defintions that you have presented so far do not describe - nor suggest - that a likewise process is seen in the thenar crease)

By the way, I think you are also kind of creating your own vocabulary because I found that the terminology 'upper thenar crease' and 'lower thenar crease' appear only to have been used in this report only (where those words refer to creases at the thumb only, not the thenar!):
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA336094

(But the use of those words in the perspective of this discussion doesn't make sense to me at all all... since none of the definitions that you have presented describes any evidence that the thenar creases tends to manifest as two crease - like you suggested by the use of those two examples of terminology)

PS. Meanwhile you appear to claim that others - you even referred to the palmistry community's generally common view without specifying that at all - are using your approach, but I think I have not seen any explicit reference to hand reading books in your posts which present explicit support for your approach.

So it's kind of provocative to see you challenging me to find more examples in the hand reading literature that support my position... while you have not managed to present a single example in the hand reading literature that explicit presents support for your position.

(Sorry, I think so far you only presented a few quotes from the scientific literature - without explaining thoroughly how those quotes actually support your position)

PS. Patti, I have also the impression... that it appears to have slipped your mind that Parender also presented materials featured with comments that kind of confirm my position.

**Martijn (admin)** Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:40 pm

Patti wrote:
The life line frequently pulls inward toward the thumb and back outward away from the thumb throughout its course. It also breaks and branches... as does your aunt's crease.

The description fits either a fate line or a life line.

Patti, sounds like you are suggesting that all characteristics seen in my aunt's fate line are only natural for a life line to have.

And implicit you are kind of denying here that it is actually much more normal for a fate line to have so many 'outward curving' characteristics - than for a life line.

Apparently somehow you prefer not to post any detailed description for my aunt's hand; which I recognize as a huge handicap to find any agreement at all between our view... because it was actually this example that made us start this discussion.

Patti, would you mind to comment with on this new example of a 'short life line' that I presented earlier today - how would your prefer to describe it: just a short life line... or would you prefer to describe the central vertical line also as a life line?

(EDIT: Sorry Patti, I hadn't noticed that you already posted a few thoughts in an earlier comment)

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Dirk10

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Dirk10

**Martijn (admin)** Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:52 pm

Patti wrote:
Your aunt's longitudinal crease looks like the life line and the fate line have merged and as I said earlier, the resulting crease is serving double duty. I think it is the thenar section of the life line (which contains some fate line features) that divides the thenar from the hypothenar eminences. Other than that I think it is unimportant to break down bits and pieces of the crease and decide which piece serves for which function - as they are conjoined. (This is the simian version of the life/fate line connection It'd be like saying which stretch of the simian line relates to feeling and which relates to thinking or some such division)

Patti, I am puzzled about why you think that '... it is unimportant to break down bits and pieces of the crease...'.

Because, regarding the option of a 'fusion' of lines... that requires an analysis of the details!

And in response to the options of a 'fusion', I would like to make a new observation here:

Because we can actually see that the lower two parts of the fate line are actually 'splitting' upwards. And this does not look like an upward branch growing from the life line at all - which by principle can never be described as a true 'splitting'.

And finally, also, I can not find a single feature in the 3rd and 4th line part which suggests that any part of those lines is progressing there downward. While the wider structure of the 3rd line part (compared to the 4th line part) suggests that the line is progressing upwards!!

Hopeless

It's hard for me to understand why you show so much persistence in avoiding to discuss the details seen in the various examples that have been presented in this topic.

**Martijn (admin)** Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:08 pm

Patti wrote:ps.
Can this fate line not fit the description for the thenar crease, should be the question. At all places it can easily fit the description for a life line. Now could a fate line that only appears above the head line aiming towards/from the fingers be a life line, no of course not.

Okay, that makes sense to me. Thumbs up!

Patti wrote:So bottom line, you aunt's line is located and contained in a location that is common for a life line. Trying to associate it's constitution still isn't important here, it is it's placement.

Patti...

... I can not believe you're suggesting that 'placement' is the single most important factor. This almost looks like a beginners-mistake, for you are ignoring the fact that the 'sagittal' line is the only line of which the full LOCATION relates to the mid-axis of the palm.

Patti wrote:
Just noticed the new example. I'd say the inner line is a short distal section, the longer middle crease serves double duty as both fate and life, and the crease farther away from the thenar eminence is a finger crease. I'd read all three pieces in combination. The middle line has a break away branch that continues to the fingers. The distal section of the life line has a break away section that proceeds toward the wrist. This middle crease serves the function of dividing the hypothenar from the thenar and acting as the solitary crease aiming to (or from) the carpals.

... Wait a minute, I think in your first post you kind of described in your comment (which I liked very much), that if in my aunt's hand the fate line would have clearly progressed through the head line then it could no longer serve as a life line.

But now you are saying for my new example that it doesn't bother you at all to describe it as a combi of fate- and life line... even while it clearly progresses through the head line?

Did I misunderstood your first comment?

(Were you talking about a fate line example that only becomes manifest above the head line and not below the head line at all... ???)

Patti Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:24 pm

Perhaps the pain of pulling your hair is blinding you to the fact that I have already answered and addressed many of the things you raised in your last couple of posts.

Quickly, I'll point out that Ashbaugh shows the upper thenar or mars mount to be the 1st interdigital area. He said and I already quoted this: "The thenar flexion crease develops with the appearance of the thenar pad and the first interdigital pad."

The timing of the appearance of these two pads is not mentioned here, but Kimura places them both developing from 8 through 13/14 weeks. 13/14 weeks is the beginning of the appearance of the head line.

This image for a book copied from Google books - credits are in the image and earlier quote, states that the upper part of the thenar crease is influenced by the interdigital pad and the other lower part is influenced by the thenar pad.

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Thenar13

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Thenar13

I commented on your aunt's palm when I first posted. I think both lines relate to the life line and the longitudinal line serves double duty. The life line is more likely to show changes as the tension between the thumb the thenar crease and fingers, is stronger than any tension affecting the hypothenar area.

None of the palmistry authors contradict anything I have said either. Neutral information.

Patti Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:28 pm

If you are equating the life line to the thenar crease then placement is of utmost importance. You need to prove that your aunt's line does "not" qualify as a life line. You cannot as it fits a description for a life line.

**Lynn** Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:15 pm

In this new example, RH, the fate line continues up to saturn mount, so I think it is a short lifeline and a long fate line. I don't have the same questions about this as I do about your aunts hands. I thought at first that the lifeline was reaching out to join the fate line, but on zooming I see the branch/fork at the end of the lifeline does not quite touch the fate line. If it had joined the fate line, I would have said that the lifeline is reaching out to the fate line for support and fate line takes over the role of lifeline lower down. But as it is, I would say short lifeline and 'normal' fate line.
However the lower part of fate line has a break. Just below the break, is there a line coming from the fate line curling around the thenar mount at the base - where you might expect the end of the lifeline to be? (the ink is dark, the line is fine, so I can't be sure).

**Martijn (admin)** Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:24 pm

Patti wrote:Perhaps the pain of pulling your hair is blinding you to the fact that I have already answered and addressed many of the things you raised in your last couple of posts.

Quickly, I'll point out that Ashbaugh shows the upper thenar or mars mount to be the 1st interdigital area. He said and I already quoted this: "The thenar flexion crease develops with the appearance of the thenar pad and the first interdigital pad."

The timing of the appearance of these two pads is not mentioned here, but Kimura places them both developing from 8 through 13/14 weeks. 13/14 weeks is the beginning of the appearance of the head line.

This image for a book copied from Google books - credits are in the image and earlier quote, states that the upper part of the thenar crease is influenced by the interdigital pad and the other lower part is influenced by the thenar pad.

I commented on your aunt's palm when I first posted. I think both lines relate to the life line and the longitudinal line serves double duty. The life line is more likely to show changes as the tension between the thumb the thenar crease and fingers, is stronger than any tension affecting the hypothenar area.

None of the palmistry authors contradict anything I have said either. Neutral information.

Patti, I don't understand what connection you see between those scientific materials and your description for my aunt's hand.

For example, regarding the passage in the quote that says:

"The thenar crease encloses the thenar eminence proximally and a shallow depression distally corresponding to the thenar space. The resistance in this depression is due to the adductor pollicis muscle."

I think this passage only describes how the life line encloses both the mount of venus and mars-negative.

What do you think that this passage adds to our discussion?

(Sorry, I don't recognize how this quote explains any detail in your description for my aunt's life line. Please try to explain where you see a connection ... because I think in your post above you have made references to some passages in that article, without explaining how those passages relate to your comment about my aunt's hand. confused

)

**knox gillespie** Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:25 pm

A short life line has many meanings , and I use three vistas:

Tamas --physical and sturcture :Rajas _energy and movment ; and Sattva , the balance, understanding , the light of a thing… These are Hindu concepts for cosmic forces….

The tamas of a short life line… lower back problems (now one has to see if chronic pain has made problems) - poor coordination , lower energy cycles…

The rajas: fears project from the subconscious easily, non completion of projects is common,sexual vitality may have problems .

The Sattva: desire for more fullness in life, consciousness is very dominate to a point of very active on one's goals.(busy mind).

All of these are worked in my readings , not predictive but a process of understanding between the reader and subject. I rarely give predictions since actualization is built on investigation and agreement , not on authority of predictive guesses…

**Martijn (admin)** Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:46 pm

Lynn wrote:

In this new example, RH, the fate line continues up to saturn mount, so I think it is a short lifeline and a long fate line. I don't have the same questions about this as I do about your aunts hands. I thought at first that the lifeline was reaching out to join the fate line, but on zooming I see the branch/fork at the end of the lifeline does not quite touch the fate line. If it had joined the fate line, I would have said that the lifeline is reaching out to the fate line for support and fate line takes over the role of lifeline lower down. But as it is, I would say short lifeline and 'normal' fate line.
However the lower part of fate line has a break. Just below the break, is there a line coming from the fate line curling around the thenar mount at the base - where you might expect the end of the lifeline to be? (the ink is dark, the line is fine, so I can't be sure).

Thanks Lynn,

This all makes sense to me; we kind of made the same assessment for this example - because we both speak of the combination of a 'short life line' + 'a normal fate line' (with no arbitrary issues involved).

Regarding your notification that the radial wrist zone of the print is not very clear; I can say not much more than what I observe is that a likewise upward pointing line to the 5th finger is visible in the left hand: looks like a health line to me.

PS. By the way, I perceive you assessment as a confirmation for my earlier impression that you are using a different approach than Patti is using. In this post you can see Patti's assessment for that print saying (quoted below):

https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t166p120-any-body-can-give-any-answer-for-this-length-life-line#22452

"Just noticed the new example. I'd say the inner line is a short distal section, the longer middle crease serves double duty as both fate and life, and the crease farther away from the thenar eminence is a finger crease. I'd read all three pieces in combination. The middle line has a break away branch that continues to the fingers. The distal section of the life line has a break away section that proceeds toward the wrist. This middle crease serves the function of dividing the hypothenar from the thenar and acting as the solitary crease aiming to (or from) the carpals."

Patti Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:54 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:Perhaps the pain of pulling your hair is blinding you to the fact that I have already answered and addressed many of the things you raised in your last couple of posts.

Quickly, I'll point out that Ashbaugh shows the upper thenar or mars mount to be the 1st interdigital area. He said and I already quoted this: "The thenar flexion crease develops with the appearance of the thenar pad and the first interdigital pad."

The timing of the appearance of these two pads is not mentioned here, but Kimura places them both developing from 8 through 13/14 weeks. 13/14 weeks is the beginning of the appearance of the head line.

This image for a book copied from Google books - credits are in the image and earlier quote, states that the upper part of the thenar crease is influenced by the interdigital pad and the other lower part is influenced by the thenar pad.

I commented on your aunt's palm when I first posted. I think both lines relate to the life line and the longitudinal line serves double duty. The life line is more likely to show changes as the tension between the thumb the thenar crease and fingers, is stronger than any tension affecting the hypothenar area.

None of the palmistry authors contradict anything I have said either. Neutral information.

Patti, I don't understand what connection you see between those scientific materials and your description for my aunt's hand.

For example, regarding the passage in the quote that says:

"The thenar crease encloses the thenar eminence proximally and a shallow depression distally corresponding to the thenar space. The resistance in this depression is due to the adductor pollicis muscle."

I think this passage only describes how the life line encloses both the mount of venus and mars-negative.

What do you think that this passage adds to our discussion?

(Sorry, I don't recognize how this quote explains any detail in your description for my aunt's life line. Please try to explain where you see a connection ... because I think in your post above you have made references to some passages in that article, without explaining how those passages relate to your comment about my aunt's hand. )

I think one needs to be associating the accumulated information, especially from the medical and forensic texts.

The fact that it forms in a depression while the rest of the thenar crease forms in the groove between the thenar and hypothenar eminence, muscles or pads, illustrate and support that these two crease do not always align. The short upper crease is only the initial start of the life line. The thenar crease is the crease that divides the thenar from the hypothenar eminence.

You'll find the Kimura also describe the thenar crease as rising from the wrist in "Embryologic Development of Flexion Creases". "The thenar crease is the curved crease encircling the thenar eminence. It begins in the proximal mid-palm somewhat above the distal wrist crease and ends on the radial side of the hand. It usually joins the proximal transverse crease near the radial border of the hand but sometimes it has a separate radial terminus, proximal of the proximal transverse crease." (page 115)
"Dermatoglyphics, Science in Transition" (Plato, etal 1991)

On page 120 Kimura refers to Kimura & Kitagawa, and Lacroix etal, as observing the thenar crease as developing radially. Kimura states regarding 8 weeks of gestations, "Thenar crease starts on the radial side between the thumb and index fingers." At 9 weeks "The thenar crease is clearly recognizable in the region between the distal and proximal components of interdigital pad I." At 18 weeks of gestation they describe how the flexion crease are formed as "grooves, or boundary lines, between pads or between pads or nonpad areas".

The thenar crease begins on the radial side and the section in mid palm is based on the groove between the thenar and the hypothenar eminence.

Patti Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:12 pm

I have long observed the parallel nature of creases and their association with each other. One of the medical descriptions of the creases included describing how creases line up in parallel sections illustrating a particular flexure movement or position of the hand. These relate to how the skin bunches up or flexes during this position.

If you study these green lines for a while, it appears they might be related to pinching items such as a pen or eating utencils. Regardless of what activity formed them, I think they relate to each other.
Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Dirk1011

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Dirk1011

In the image below, starting from the thumb side, typically most hands have some sort of rising 'ambition' line that rises toward the inside of the index finger. I have colored this influence line or section, yellow.

The green inner line is a short start of a life line, an inner life line or a Mars line.

Further out a short green line appears from the head line down to the long longitudinal crease. Following the flow of the line colored in green in my earlier images - the section I colored yellow/green/orange is most likely formed as part of this group. The spacing is right for a crease in the bunching of skin during flexure. It does not rise high enough to transform the rest of the crease below into a fate line. The rest is colored green for life line.

This green outer line forms the boundary between the thenar and hypothenar eminences.

The orange creases are fate line related. These particular ones I marked are concerned with the middle finger the most.
Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Dirk1012

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Dirk1012

**Martijn (admin)** Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:27 pm

Patti wrote:If you are equating the life line to the thenar crease then placement is of utmost importance. You need to prove that your aunt's line does "not" qualify as a life line. You cannot as it fits a description for a life line.

Patti, regarding my aunt's example:

After I have already described in detail how the first three part of that line perfectly fit in the description of a fate line according LOCATION, PATH, DIRECTION; and these 3 parts do not show any characteristics that is very typical for a life line at all.

And the same is also kind of true for the 4th part - except that this part shows a small 'curving' outward which can be associated with a life line (but the LOCATION & DIRECTION can certainly not be associated with a typical life line).

Regarding your last few words:

"You cannot as it fits a description for a life line."

So far you refused to present a detailed analysis + an explanation of which details in the print are decisive for you to describe the line as a life line and not a fate line.

(In this post you only have described what would be required for you not call that line a life line: https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t166p120-any-body-can-give-any-answer-for-this-length-life-line#22452)

Well, okay... you want some 'proof'?

No problem at all:

I could make the following statement:

Any normal life line will never end in a point at a (edit:) dissociated- or connected head line that is found at a location in a vertical plane positioned no more than about 1cm away from the vertical plane where triradius b is found (= the riradius below the middle finger)

Gna...gna

Patti, in my view you can simply 'proof' that my statement is not correct by finding a hand print example without a 'short life line variant' that shows the same characteristic for the life line.

Very Happy

Now, after you asked for some 'proof'... I really hope that you will accept my challenge!

(Because otherwise you are kind of walking away from my 'proof' without any serious attempt to study it's significance)

PS. I assume the details about the vertical plains in that description make sense to you?
If not I will explain my definition for the life line with a picture!

**Lynn** Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:55 pm

Patti wrote:I think one needs to be associating the accumulated information, especially from the medical and forensic texts.

The fact that it forms in a depression while the rest of the thenar crease forms in the groove between the thenar and hypothenar eminence, muscles or pads, illustrate and support that these two crease do not always align. The short upper crease is only the initial start of the life line. The thenar crease is the crease that divides the thenar from the hypothenar eminence.

You'll find the Kimura also describe the thenar crease as rising from the wrist in "Embryologic Development of Flexion Creases". "The thenar crease is the curved crease encircling the thenar eminence. It begins in the proximal mid-palm somewhat above the distal wrist crease and ends on the radial side of the hand. It usually joins the proximal transverse crease near the radial border of the hand but sometimes it has a separate radial terminus, proximal of the proximal transverse crease." (page 115)
"Dermatoglyphics, Science in Transition" (Plato, etal 1991)

On page 120 Kimura refers to Kimura & Kitagawa, and Lacroix etal, as observing the thenar crease as developing radially. Kimura states regarding 8 weeks of gestations, "Thenar crease starts on the radial side between the thumb and index fingers." At 9 weeks "The thenar crease is clearly recognizable in the region between the distal and proximal components of interdigital pad I." At 18 weeks of gestation they describe how the flexion crease are formed as "grooves, or boundary lines, between pads or between pads or nonpad areas".

The thenar crease begins on the radial side and the section in mid palm is based on the groove between the thenar and the hypothenar eminence.

Hi Patti, I confess I am struggling to understand exactly what point you are making with the texts you've presented above and on previous pages. Many of the quotes just describe the position or course of the lifeline and other lines.

eg

"The thenar crease encloses the thenar eminence proximally and a shallow depression distally corresponding to the thenar space. The resistance in this depression is due to the adductor pollicis muscle."

It is just telling us the course of the lifeline from base of Venus mount up to Mars mount. What point were you making about it?

The fact that it forms in a depression while the rest of the thenar crease forms in the groove between the thenar and hypothenar eminence, muscles or pads, illustrate and support that these two crease do not always align.

I'm not sure what you mean by two creases? The thenar crease first begins to form from the top ie radial side between index finger and thumb (in the 'depression' which refers to location of Mars mount.) It then grows downwards towards the wrist (in the grooves).
what is the second crease you mention?
sorry, you've lost me! Can you explain again what point you're making in the above quotes, cos I seem to have missed it!?

Patti Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:52 am

Lynn wrote:
Patti wrote:I think one needs to be associating the accumulated information, especially from the medical and forensic texts.

The fact that it forms in a depression while the rest of the thenar crease forms in the groove between the thenar and hypothenar eminence, muscles or pads, illustrate and support that these two crease do not always align. The short upper crease is only the initial start of the life line. The thenar crease is the crease that divides the thenar from the hypothenar eminence.

You'll find the Kimura also describe the thenar crease as rising from the wrist in "Embryologic Development of Flexion Creases". "The thenar crease is the curved crease encircling the thenar eminence. It begins in the proximal mid-palm somewhat above the distal wrist crease and ends on the radial side of the hand. It usually joins the proximal transverse crease near the radial border of the hand but sometimes it has a separate radial terminus, proximal of the proximal transverse crease." (page 115)
"Dermatoglyphics, Science in Transition" (Plato, etal 1991)

On page 120 Kimura refers to Kimura & Kitagawa, and Lacroix etal, as observing the thenar crease as developing radially. Kimura states regarding 8 weeks of gestations, "Thenar crease starts on the radial side between the thumb and index fingers." At 9 weeks "The thenar crease is clearly recognizable in the region between the distal and proximal components of interdigital pad I." At 18 weeks of gestation they describe how the flexion crease are formed as "grooves, or boundary lines, between pads or between pads or nonpad areas".

The thenar crease begins on the radial side and the section in mid palm is based on the groove between the thenar and the hypothenar eminence.

Hi Patti, I confess I am struggling to understand exactly what point you are making with the texts you've presented above and on previous pages. Many of the quotes just describe the position or course of the lifeline and other lines.

eg
"The thenar crease encloses the thenar eminence proximally and a shallow depression distally corresponding to the thenar space. The resistance in this depression is due to the adductor pollicis muscle."
It is just telling us the course of the lifeline from base of Venus mount up to Mars mount. What point were you making about it?

The fact that it forms in a depression while the rest of the thenar crease forms in the groove between the thenar and hypothenar eminence, muscles or pads, illustrate and support that these two crease do not always align.
I'm not sure what you mean by two creases? The thenar crease first begins to form from the top ie radial side between index finger and thumb (in the 'depression' which refers to location of Mars mount.) It then grows downwards towards the wrist (in the grooves).
what is the second crease you mention?
sorry, you've lost me! Can you explain again what point you're making in the above quotes, cos I seem to have missed it!?

The point I'm making (or trying to) is that each is based on different criteria in development. Each being the part of the thenar crease that forms in the interdigital space between the thumb and index, and the section of the thenar crease that forms in the boundaries between the thenar and the hypothenar pads.

The upper formation is based on the develop and condition of the interdigital pad (mars mount) and the rest of the thenar crease forms around the thenar pad (Venus) between the thenar and the hypothenar eminences. This latter is influenced by the condition and shape of the thenar pad.

These are the basic conditions the thenar crease forms under.

The middle finger crease (fate line) forms/develops under different circumstances than a thenar crease. It doesn't need to be in the groove between the thenar and hypothenar pads as it's a minor crease. If there's a crease that runs in this groove it is likely thenar crease related more so than middle finger crease related. I think the thenar crease is complete before the middle finger crease during development, particularly since it began forming weeks earlier.

Patti Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:09 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:If you are equating the life line to the thenar crease then placement is of utmost importance. You need to prove that your aunt's line does "not" qualify as a life line. You cannot as it fits a description for a life line.

Patti, regarding my aunt's example:

After I have already described in detail how the first three part of that line perfectly fit in the description of a fate line according LOCATION, PATH, DIRECTION; and these 3 parts do not show any characteristics that is very typical for a life line at all.

And the same is also kind of true for the 4th part - except that this part shows a small 'curving' outward which can be associated with a life line (but the LOCATION & DIRECTION can certainly not be associated with a typical life line).

Regarding your last few words:

"You cannot as it fits a description for a life line."

So far you refused to present a detailed analysis + an explanation of which details in the print are decisive for you to describe the line as a life line and not a fate line.

(In this post you only have described what would be required for you not call that line a life line: https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t166p120-any-body-can-give-any-answer-for-this-length-life-line#22452)

Well, okay... you want some 'proof'?

No problem at all:

I could make the following statement:

Any normal life line will never end in a point at a (dissociated) head line that is found at a location in a vertical plane positioned no more than about 1cm away from the vertical plane where triradius b is found (= the riradius below the middle finger)

Patti, in my view you can simply 'proof' that my statement is not correct by finding a hand print example without a 'short life line variant' that shows the same characteristic for the life line.

Now, after you asked for some 'proof'... I really hope that you will accept my challenge!

(Because otherwise you are kind of walking away from my 'proof' without any serious attempt to study it's significance)

PS. I assume the details about the vertical plains in that description make sense to you?
If not I will explain my definition for the life line with a picture!

The part of your post that actually makes sense is the part where it seems you want a more detailed analysis from me regarding your aunt's creases than I did earlier.

You also seem to be requesting I find some kind of hand with features similar to your aunts...? scratch

I did that earlier in this thread with examples from Wolff, Reid and others. I looked through many of my hand prints and images that are on my computer and there are too many variations. Every hand has it's own unique combination of qualities.

thinking

Patti Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:52 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:

I could make the following statement:

Any normal life line will never end in a point at a dissociated head line that is found at a location in a vertical plane positioned no more than about 1cm away from the vertical plane where triradius b is found (= the riradius below the middle finger)

Patti Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:09 am

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Short-18

The lines colored green relate to the thenar crease.

The radial section colored green, is made up of broken and overlaping segments, that appear almost ladder like. They are drawn together with a horizontal influence line also colored green.

Another outer section green line is the continuation of the thenar crease.

The red colored line shows some kind of influence. The red marked lines continue (without red coloring) toward the ring finger, fading out in the creases there.

After this connection in the general area shown by the red lines, the energy shifts to the outer line and the inner line fades out. Green branches a little farther down show another reaching out between the two lines to connect (as well as uncolored influence lines paralleling the red one at an earlier time period).

In the image below with the circled lines, the blue and yellow circles enclose areas of the crease that are disrupted. For me, this is another indication of a shifting of energy from one crease to the other.

The first set of aqua arrows (highest up) point to where the inner line begins to fade into a dermatoglyphic groove and the outer crease shifts directions.

The next set of aqua arrows point to boundaries of an area of the crease that curves inward toward the life line. This coincides with the absence of the inner crease. Now the flexure/extension tension is between the proximal phalangeal crease of the thumb and this thenar crease that is more deeply attached in the skin layers as compared to other creases between it and the thumb. Thumb movement and stance has likely pulled this area towards it. This section is the life line and not fate line related.

The next set of aqua arrows point to a straight piece of this crease. It is a combination section. It could be seen as a piece of fate line bridging the life line. I see it as a mix of the two. Both fate and life. I colored it orange and green. I think the straightness indicates this section is more influenced by the index finger and hypothenar rather than thumb. Ironically, the dgs are straighter on the thumb side and are actually curved in the opposite direction on the hypothenar side.

An orange colored branch rises with a mix of moving toward the ring finger and the middle finger. In a ladder like way it branches both ulnarly and distally. I see it as part of the flow of ridges I colored orange under the middle finger. The orange colored lines are fate line related.

The next branch rising upward from this crease is colored both orange and purple. This section is shown by the last set of aqua arrows. These creases are aiming to the ring finger so I would call them sun line related, but they flow with the upper creases colored orange as well.

Purple are ring finger or sun line related.

The pink lines are Mercury or health lines.

The life line continues around the thumb colored in green. It appears to become broken segments maintaining itself within thenar side of the main line from the t triradius. Faint lines branch toward the ulnar side of the wrist.

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Short-17

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Short-17

**Martijn (admin)** Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:49 am

Patti, I now recognize that where I mentioned the dissociated head line this kind of became a confusing element regarding the point I was trying to make.

So, I apologize for this confusing element (which might have made it look like as if my request included a contradiction).

Therefore I will now make a new attempt to deliver my 'proof' with the following guideline:

A life line will never enter the 'upper palmar zone' at the ulnar side of the triradius below the index finger.

(This guideline is resulting from the fact that a normal life line always progresses downward from from the radial termination point at the 2nd interdigital zone to the center zone at the wrist!)

A fundamental guideline... which could help us to finish this discussion! cheers

I could also translate this fundamental guideline into:

Any normal life line will not pass the 'virtual horizontal plain A-B' (see picture below) at the ulnar side of the a-tradius below the index finger.

NOTICE: The 'virtual horizontal plain A-B' is found between the start of radial termination point of the life line (point A) and the ulnar termination point of the heart line (B)

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Short-12

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Short-12

We can see in the picture that the fate line in my aunt's hand does reach out to the virtual line A-B at a point below the middle finger (at a point only about 1 cm at the radial side of the triradius under de 3rd finger).

And this is actually a very typical characteristics for any fate line that is long enough to pass the head line!

Sorry Patti, for this reason I observe that the fate line in my aunt's hand can VERY LIKELY not be said to show the typical 'placement' (quoted from your words) for a life line: because it violates the sensible guideline that I presented above!

Patti, in my view you can simply 'proof' that my new statement regarding the virtual horizontal plain A-B is not correct by finding a hand print example without a 'short life line variant' that shows the same characteristic for the life line.

Will you now accept my challenge?

(Or maybe you are now willing to acknowledge/confirm that the 4th part of the line in my aunt's hand does show a characteristic that is rather unsually for life line!?)

**Martijn (admin)** Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:57 pm

Quoted from my post above: "A life line will never enter the 'upper palmar zone' at the ulnar side of the triradius below the index finger."

By the way...

Applying this rule to Parender's example shows that this example is much more 'arbitrair'... because this example does not violate the rule above at all! And in this example the line under discussion also shows a 'curve' that is very typical for a life line... so I understand the associations with the life line.

However, the line under discussion is does end under the middle finger... which concerns a characteristic that is much more typical for a fate line. And I could add that the upper few cm's of that line are slightly 'curving' outward towards the middle finger.

2 typical characteristics for a life line + 2 typical characteristics for a fate line.

So, I am still in doubt about this example:

However, I observe that the upper part of this line looks more like a fate line than a life line!

So, my doubt for this case is kind of focused on the lower part, however since it is not unusual for a fate line to have such characteristics in the lower part of the line... I tend to continue to give my support for Parender's assessment.

(But I can not present much more 'proof' here - beyond that I have explained by detail with my descriptions for the upper part and the lower part of that line)

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 7858583150_9fff466244_b

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 7858583150_9fff466244_b

Regarding Lynn's example:

I had not commented on that one so far, but I perceive that in that example the life line manifest via two rather weak short life lines + a much stronger mars line.

I associate the stronger line parts near the wrist with other lines: fate line (3th finger line) and health line (5th finger line).

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Simonr11

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Simonr11

Regarding the example that I presented:

Obviously, in this example reaches out beyond the virtual horizontal A-B plain. So that confirms my earlier assessment as well... as it also violates my new guideline regarding the life line!

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Dirk10

And finally, regarding the other 3 examples that were presented by Patti:

I had not commented about them so far, but I think it is obvious that those do not show much similarities with my aunt's example (and none of those violate my new guideline).

- Ad 1) It's hard for me to comment regarding the Charlotte Wolff example, because the lines are not very clear in that picture at all.

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Charlo10

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Charlo10

- Ad 2) I don't think that any experienced palmist would even start thinking of a 'short line', because obviously that is actually just an example of a 'broken' life line (according the definition presented in the Korean article).

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Noel_j10

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Noel_j10

- Ad 3) I don't want to make any comments about that example, because I think it is obvious that we can only see a very small part of the palm... which makes it kind of impossible to see what is really going on there.

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Fenton10

Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line) - Page 6 Fenton10

Patti Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:03 pm

I would prefer to see guidelines that relate to the thenar crease regarding it's location between the thenar and the hypothenar eminences.

The finger creases would more likely be influenced by the fingers. However, I do see your association, as I can tell you have recognized the influence of the index finger on the life line's direction.

As far as slicing the hand vertically from the triradii, no.

I do think it's not very kind of you to ignore much of what I've presented from science and medical texts and then expect me to get excited about some unsubstantiated theory you have presented out of the blue.

wave

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