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Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:18 pm

chakraborty wrote:...

So, whatever we say - palmistry has a limitation about very long term accurate predictions. Life expectancy , the most difficult topic probably, also lies within this.

That does not mean that the indicators of these areas - finance / fame /awards /disease or any similar things - are useless and do not carry any importance. If it is so, then there will be no palmistry

regards

Chakraborty

Thank you Chakraborty,

I think your last words kind of reflect how many people tend to think about palmistry - they associate it with the 'predictive' branch of palmistry (because they think that palmistry has only the purpose of 'divination', e.g. predicting the future).

However, I think this only represents the 'traditional' view on palmistry.

The truth is that around the world palmistry today has many branches where 'divination' plays no role at all - see the most popular approaches mentioned in the sub-title of this forum... listing: Life Purpose Hand Analysis, Elemental- & PsychoDiagnostic Chirology, Vedic Palmistry & Spiritual Palm Reading.

Most of those modern approaches do not focus on 'divination' at all.


Sorry, I can not confirm your idea that palmistry is all about 'prediction'; because I perceive personal growth / personal awareness via self-knowledge & diagnostic applications as the highest purpose of hand reading.

And in the perspective of this discussion I could add that a 'short life line' could have it's value combined with other hand features in terms of issues that relate to inner motivation.

(Additionally, I believe that the 'predictive' branch of palmistry should be perceived as a folklore-based believe-system which basically only fulfills culture-based needs)

So, in my perception 'modern hand reading' is not focused on predicting the future... however at this forum we do discuss those issues as well & everybody is welcome to add & share their experiences regarding that aspect of palmistry as well!

wave


PS. Regarding your narrative to Lynn, I have the impression that Lynn took your info regarding the age of people involved likewise as I did. By the way, you have not specified why exactly you think that I have not read your words properly... so it's hard for me to comment on that perception. But I highly appreciate your efforts to discuss things properly! Thumbs up!

___________________________________________
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Post  chakraborty on Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:09 am

Dear Martijn,

Our approaches are different & so will be our observations & views

I think your last words kind of reflect how many people tend to think about palmistry - they associate it with the 'predictive' branch of palmistry (because they think that palmistry has only the purpose of 'divination', e.g. predicting the future).
.

I am aware that Palmistry has been associated with many things and people use it for different purposes. You have listed these. But to me, it appears that you might have missed a crucial part of divination part. The divination part is also used for improvement. It is not fatalistic as many people claim. Because after Divination comes counselling and remedies. These two things make it clear that the future can be changed / improved based on understanding gained from reading of the hand.

Obviously, I do not and need not agree to your observations on predictive palmistry as folklore based believe system.

Why I find predictive palmistry important is ----

In other uses of palmistry (Life Purpose Hand Analysis, Elemental- & PsychoDiagnostic Chirology), the narrative we get is mainly in abstract terms. Someone with beautiful command on language (s) and some command on basic psychology can provide a descriptions...even without much expertise in Palmistry. But how one cross-check these descriptions ? Someone on Life purpose analysis says something to me - then how do I know what the person is saying is correct - how do I cross-check ? Our brain has many layers of memories in them. If someone is kept harping that in my childhood negative emotions were a-plenty - then there is strong possibility that I will remember those happenings only, forgetting the pleasant ones.

When it comes to checking accuracy of any method - it should have two things. It should describe a happening (let it be anything - an event / a medical problem / a mental state like depression) with a definitive time frame. Otherwise same can not be cross-checked. If I say that someone has less brilliance of mind - he/she will never agree. If I say that someone is brilliant - he/she will always agree (Everybody thinks he/she is above average). I know I am describing it in very simplistic way - just to get my point across.

Regarding your comment -
[/quote] By the way, you have not specified why exactly you think that I have not read your words properly.[quote]

I had written that the prediction appeared to be partly based on intuition. But in your comment you had attributed possibility of "luck/co-incidence / spurious factors". That gave me that impression that you might had missed that word "intuition".

I understand that you and me may not agree to many a things. But I enjoyed the discussion.

regards

Chakraborty

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:35 am


Thank you Chakraborty,

Very nice to hear that you enjoyed the discussion.

Feel free to start a new topic in order to discuss some specific aspects of 'predictive' palmistry a little bit further.

(If you're interested in doing that maybe the Vedic Palmstry forum could be most suitable - because I think the Vedic Palmistry system is sort of the 'modern' variant of classic 'predicitive' palmistry: https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/f5-iiif-vedic-palmistry)

wave

PS. I hope we can leave this topic open for further discussion about the life line.


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Post  pravin kumar on Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:45 am

Martijn,

Why I focussed on Predictive Palmistry is because the person first wants to know his high and low periods in life careerwise, personal life wise, healthwise too so that he may take precautions and be ready. No doubt modern palmistry is different but still predictive palmistry still people want to know when. So if you want to keep a separate section for that it is O.K.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:12 pm


Hi Pravin Kumar,

I think your suggestion is excellent: I really like your idea to create a forum section where people can ask and answer questions regarding 'future predicitions'. Because then we can show at this forum more clearly that 'predictive palmistry' is just one of the branches in the fields of palmistry!

I will discuss you idea with with the other members of the moderator-team, and then I will inform you about the outcome. Okay?

wave

___________________________________________
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Post  tajender on Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:15 pm

Hi Chakraborty
Western palmists do not understand the meaning of divinity. These people can not go beyond material and as you said they use their sophisticated language which they name as modern palm reading.
If prediction is removed from palmistry then this will be the fatal for this subject. Good that you replied robustly.

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Post  chakraborty on Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:04 am

Dear Martijn,

Thanks & Welcome.

I am bit of a wanderer.....not a serious palmist per se. But I am open to all ideas...I cannot discard any theory before I have studied it. So, I am not exclusively in predictive palmistry only.

Yes, Let us keep the scope for further discussion open. Let knowledge come from all direction & all corners to us .

regards

Chakraborty.

___________________

Dear Tejender,

I feel that you, I and others (Martijn, Patti, Lynn, Pravin Kumar-ji etc) all represent different ideas / different interpretations of same ideas / different view-point. Sometimes, these ideas/interpretations/view-points co-align...sometimes they differ. The discussion is about understanding everyone's view point so that we can enrich ourselves.

None of us are absolutely correct or absolutely wrong. Although sometimes, we do mistakes while expressing it - may be due to inadequacy of language/words.

Palmistry as an art has survived many attacks in past & it will continue even if a branch (predictive palmistry) is ignored by some of the practitioners.

regards

Chakraborty

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:04 am


Hi Pravin Kumar,

In the moderator team we have considered the option to create a new forum section. And though some of use found the idea appealing, and the end we agreed/concluded that 'predictive palmistry' should better not be associated with modern hand reading.

However, we also arrived at an idea to present some kind of 'guideline' which describes a code of ethics - just like the Brahmans did (few people are aware that in the view of the Brahmans ancient palmistry is only meant to be used for divine purposes in the life of an ascetic/monk, and not to take anything in return... such as making money or making claims about one's knowledge).

So, sooner or later we will probably present a new version of the 5th 'forum rule' (with a reference regarding to 'predictive palmistry' and 'psychic palmistry') which has recently been introduced, see:
https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t94-forum-rules-guidelines-the-modern-hand-reading-dos-don-ts

(We are still thinking about how to present a new guidelines that will help all hand readers to 'standardize' their readings at this forum a little bit more than we have seen so far)


Thanks!

___________________________________________
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Post  Lynn on Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:03 am

chakraborty wrote:Dear Martijn,

Thanks & Welcome.

I am bit of a wanderer.....not a serious palmist per se. But I am open to all ideas...I cannot discard any theory before I have studied it. So, I am not exclusively in predictive palmistry only.

Yes, Let us keep the scope for further discussion open. Let knowledge come from all direction & all corners to us .

regards

Chakraborty.

___________________

Dear Tejender,

I feel that you, I and others (Martijn, Patti, Lynn, Pravin Kumar-ji etc) all represent different ideas / different interpretations of same ideas / different view-point. Sometimes, these ideas/interpretations/view-points co-align...sometimes they differ. The discussion is about understanding everyone's view point so that we can enrich ourselves.

None of us are absolutely correct or absolutely wrong. Although sometimes, we do mistakes while expressing it - may be due to inadequacy of language/words.

Palmistry as an art has survived many attacks in past & it will continue even if a branch (predictive palmistry) is ignored by some of the practitioners.

regards

Chakraborty

well said Chakraborty Thumbs up!

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Post  kiwihands on Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:09 pm

chakraborty wrote:
Dear Tejender,

I feel that you, I and others (Martijn, Patti, Lynn, Pravin Kumar-ji etc) all represent different ideas / different interpretations of same ideas / different view-point. Sometimes, these ideas/interpretations/view-points co-align...sometimes they differ. The discussion is about understanding everyone's view point so that we can enrich ourselves.

None of us are absolutely correct or absolutely wrong. Although sometimes, we do mistakes while expressing it - may be due to inadequacy of language/words.

Palmistry as an art has survived many attacks in past & it will continue even if a branch (predictive palmistry) is ignored by some of the practitioners.

regards

Chakraborty

I agree, Chakraborty. Well put. Thumbs up!

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Post  kiwihands on Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:21 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
It looks like another absurd attempt to suggest that this info puts any support to your individual approach (I have not seen other participants sharing likewise speculative ideas).

I think the reason for other participants not sharing "likewise speculative ideas" may be that they don't want their arguments to be called absurd and delusional. From following discussions on here for a while now, I have come to realise that there is no point in trying to present evidence to you once you have formed an opinion about something ... and this thread proves it once again. I'm only posting because of your reference to the lack of support from other participants - I couldn't let that stand. I can follow Patti's argument, find her examples and evidence compelling, and agree with her conclusion.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:28 pm

kiwihands wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
It looks like another absurd attempt to suggest that this info puts any support to your individual approach (I have not seen other participants sharing likewise speculative ideas).

I think the reason for other participants not sharing "likewise speculative ideas" may be that they don't want their arguments to be called absurd and delusional. From following discussions on here for a while now, I have come to realise that there is no point in trying to present evidence to you once you have formed an opinion about something ... and this thread proves it once again. I'm only posting because of your reference to the lack of support from other participants - I couldn't let that stand. I can follow Patti's argument, find her examples and evidence compelling, and agree with her conclusion.

Kiwihands, thanks for sharing your view regarding my choice of words - I think the context outside your small quote (+ my preceeding posts) explain why I have used those words.


PS. Your quote suggests that I only used those words because there was (edit:) no support given by others - but that was not what caused me to use those words (by the way, Lynn also questioned Patti's arguments regarding the references to scientific materials, see: https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t166p150-any-body-can-give-any-answer-for-this-length-life-line )


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:05 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post  Lynn on Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:55 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
kiwihands wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
It looks like another absurd attempt to suggest that this info puts any support to your individual approach (I have not seen other participants sharing likewise speculative ideas).

I think the reason for other participants not sharing "likewise speculative ideas" may be that they don't want their arguments to be called absurd and delusional. From following discussions on here for a while now, I have come to realise that there is no point in trying to present evidence to you once you have formed an opinion about something ... and this thread proves it once again. I'm only posting because of your reference to the lack of support from other participants - I couldn't let that stand. I can follow Patti's argument, find her examples and evidence compelling, and agree with her conclusion.

Kiwihands, thanks for sharing your view regarding my choice of words - I think the context outside your small quote (+ my preceeding posts) explain why I have used those words.


PS. Your quote suggests that I only used those words because there was support given by others - but that was not what caused me to use those words (by the way, Lynn also questioned Patti's arguments regarding the references to scientific materials, see: https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t166p150-any-body-can-give-any-answer-for-this-length-life-line )

Martijn - you wrote - "Your quote suggests that I only used those words because there was support given by others" - I think you meant to write "no support given by others"?

Yes I questioned some of Patti's arguments, as we do in such debates, but no matter how much I disagree with someone's arguments, I hope I would not call my friends absurd or delusional, which could be taken as personal insults.
(PS edit - reading thru it, to be fair I can also see some insults to Martijn from Patti's side.)

kiwi re
there is no point in trying to present evidence to you once you have formed an opinion about something
actually I disagree with that statement, I think that if Martijn is presented with hard facts & evidence, he takes it on board. Most of our disagreements, in our more heated discussions Wink , have been about how to interpret / apply the scientific literature.


Last edited by Lynn on Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:14 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:04 pm


(Lynn, thanks for pointing out to the missing of the word 'no' in my previous post - which I have corrected now)

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Post  sundar on Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:47 pm

Hello Mr.Martijn and Mrs. Lynn,

do you have evidence to prove your theories ( character reading, psyco diagnosti palmistry) are scientifical? This cannot become scientific because of the only reason that few western palmists have written book on it. Almost maximum number of peoples in this forum give predictive reading everyday or atleast support it. But we could not find your methods of so called modern techniques . It stays only at theoretical level. Can you apply psycho diagnostic methods to peoples who come with their palm pictures in this forum everyday? If you do single example everyday with successful outcome, we can atleast try to believe your theories. Otherwise, It will remain theory as it is. But there will be no practical values to those stuffs. This simple facts help us to understand the dominancy and prevalancy of predictive palmistry . No variation of western or eastern peoples in regard to it. Everybody ask for future reading. Practically, There is no exceptional to it. But I wonder on your evidentless arguments. Arguments are all about " who is right " . Discussions are all about " what is right ". We dont want the arguments. We need discussion with examples by you to read atleast one people's hand every day by using your modern method. But so far, It has not done. Also, The readings should not be based on possibilities. But, It should be stable enough especially when you say it scientifical. Thanks.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:00 am


Sorry Sundar, your request is ofto in this topic about the life line.

( Smile But I would welcome you to create a new topic & copy-and-paste your post, okay?)

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Post  sundar on Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:12 am

So far peoples did few touch about lifeline in this discussion. However i try to open a new discussion. Also you can open a poll to understand the prevalence of every school of palmistry. I see that peoples remind off topics when they find hard to answer . This is just a psycological observation. I found such eexpressions in some more threads as well. Sorry if you feel i am wrong. And thankx.
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Post  Lynn on Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:19 am

Sundar, I have replied to you in the other discussion where I accused people of going off topic. https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t2112p15-pls-provide-a-general-hand-reading-for-careerfate-and-moneyAnd in doing so, I have gone ofto myself! Laughing Embarassed (but I also recommended that an_kumar_00 starts a new discussion about his hands.)

If you start a new discussion, maybe copying your recent post here, with questions about eg "If you do single example everyday with successful outcome" etc , we can discuss it on the new thread.

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Post  zaobhand on Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:43 am

kiwihands wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
It looks like another absurd attempt to suggest that this info puts any support to your individual approach (I have not seen other participants sharing likewise speculative ideas).

I think the reason for other participants not sharing "likewise speculative ideas" may be that they don't want their arguments to be called absurd and delusional. From following discussions on here for a while now, I have come to realise that there is no point in trying to present evidence to you once you have formed an opinion about something ... and this thread proves it once again. I'm only posting because of your reference to the lack of support from other participants - I couldn't let that stand. I can follow Patti's argument, find her examples and evidence compelling, and agree with her conclusion.

Well said Kiwihand. I wonder why people are still butting their heads against the wall?...
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Post  Lynn on Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:56 am

zaobhand wrote:Well said Kiwihand. I wonder why people are still butting their heads against the wall?...

hi Boaz, can you explain what you mean exactly?

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Post  sundar on Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:19 am

Lynn wrote:
zaobhand wrote:Well said Kiwihand. I wonder why people are still butting their heads against the wall?...

hi Boaz, can you explain what you mean exactl?


I too like the precise and decent opinion of kiwihands. But expect to know the elaborated opinion of zeobhand.
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Post  chakraborty on Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:04 am


Martijn has good methodology of discussion / debate. He has a clear idea about what is acceptable as evidence /authority and what is not. Also, which word means / relates to what. Apparently, Lynn and Patti understand that part very well & thrash out the issues.

These evidence / authority part (acceptable to Martijn) is unknown to many of the forum members. Hence, many a times, an evidence presented to Martijn becomes irrelevant to him.

A theory need to be tested against observed result. Even a single fact which can not be explained by the theory can vanquish the theory. Hence, the issue raised by Sundar is a practical one.

But I am going off-topic as well.

regards

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Post  Parender on Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:35 am

Lynn wrote:
zaobhand wrote:Well said Kiwihand. I wonder why people are still butting their heads against the wall?...

hi Boaz, can you explain what you mean exactly?


Hi Lynn,
How do you do?
What I think it means self injuring or self abusing just like hitting a wall with one’s head and get hurt badly in return (wasting time in useless arguments). Zaobhand perhaps wanted to know why some people do so often and invite strong criticism. It means people who do not learn even from their own past mistakes. Zahobhand can explain the meaning in more detail in better way.
Parender


P.S.
Whoever might be doing this -“still butting their heads against the wall”, but one thing is sure that “If you want a place in the sun, you've got to put up with a few blisters.” - Abigail Van Buren - and this is happening here.

Perhaps he meant one must not do such acts again and again which can invite harsh criticism, (cause, and induce someone to criticize strongly).

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Post  Patti on Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:38 pm

I think what Kiwi and Boaz have tried to point out is that the criticism from Martijn to me was not constructive but was insulting and rude.

Because of this and because it was reconfirmed by Martijn in a post yesterday, I sent my resignation as moderator in a PM.

No more head banging for me! sunny
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:28 pm

Patti wrote:I think what Kiwi and Boaz have tried to point out is that the criticism from Martijn to me was not constructive but was insulting and rude.

Because of this and because it was reconfirmed by Martijn in a post yesterday, I sent my resignation as moderator in a PM.

No more head banging for me! sunny

Patti, I regret your decision but I respect your choice.


Nevertheless, I would like to make it noticed here more explicit that Lynn has pointed out (yesterday) that your own posts in this topic were not free from words that can be taken as an insult as well:

Lynn wrote:
(PS edit - reading thru it, to be fair I can also see some insults to Martijn from Patti's side.)
(And ... Patti, can I remind you about your deleted post somewhere halfway this topic: after my PM request to re-view it because it only included content on a rather personal level, you must have found a good reason to withdraw that post completely. So, please don't make it look like as if your own posts were all 'clean' in this topic. Especially, since in the past it has happened many times when you and I ended in a discussion 'in the heat of a debate'... often there was use of strong language from both sides. And it would kind of become an act of self-denial if you would deny anything of what I describe here in indigo)


Actually, I think it is a matter of arbitrary perception of how to qualify my choice of words - especially since the context of my use of those words does show that I have presented clear arguments why I started using those words (basically those words served to express that regarding your final 3 visual examples taken from the scientific literature I could not make much sense from your observations at all):

Visual example 1+3 ) I have used the word 'absurd' twice - in both passages I have used the word 'absurd' to express that I was not able to follow your input at all (in both examples you've pointed out to visual details that were not mentioned in the accessory comments in the books at all + you also did not explain at all why you perceived those observations supporting your position), see the following posts:

"I think your claim regarding the picture can therefore be described as absurd; because if you had studied the full picture by detail... you could have noticed that for example in the same region the line which represents the boundaries of the 3rd metacarpal bone also are not drawn with a stable colored line at both sides of the thenar crease - see especially the 2nd picture below!"
https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t166p165-any-body-can-give-any-answer-for-this-length-life-line#22533

"It looks like another absurd attempt to suggest that this info puts any support to your individual approach"
https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t166p165-any-body-can-give-any-answer-for-this-length-life-line#22535


Visual example 2) And I have used the word 'delusional' once in this post between the two posts that I have just mentioned (because you only had pointed out to an illustration with perfectly normal lines, so I think there was nothing to argue about at all... as I saw no basis at all for any kind of claim that such a picture could serve to present evidence for any aspect discussed in this topic):

"So I could describe it as delusional to suggest that this picture presents a clue about to understand the lines that we have discussed in this topic."
https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t166p165-any-body-can-give-any-answer-for-this-length-life-line#22534


PS. In general, especially in times of emotion... people tend to feel insulted easily and nearly always there is 'ego' involved (therefore I can only hope that this post from my side is taken an explanation only regarding the process in this discussion - and I would prefer it not to be taken as a complaint against anyone).

___________________________________________
sunny

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