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Post  Patti on Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:53 pm

kiwihands wrote:
I find it slightly illogical that there is no such flexible spectrum of interpretation for prints as well, i.e. can't really believe that a well-developed loop of 15 ridges should be treated the same as a single ridge loop with a central triradius. Sticking with the elemental lingo, the latter would, to me, express at least as much fire as water. When you say "perhaps a combination of two elements" I think we are of the same opinion here. Smile

Hi Kiwi,
Support for your thoughts about the likely differences in some kinds of human characteristics based on the number of ridge counts found in a loop, might be found in another manner.

The ridges have a degree of slant to them. Most obviously to do with sensory, friction, and grip. When it's energy that is being transmitted elsewhere, intuitively (including energy work) and by nerve endings (touch), and then consider how the different patterns create ridges leaning from a more basic two directional 'input' as in the basic, simple arch, to something very multi-directional as found in the whorl, and its subcategories of peacocks and double loops.

A tented arch often has a central peak and central upthrust of some sort. Esoterically, symbolically aren't we looking at a pyramid shape? Does energy flow in and out of the fingertips? If so, perhaps the energy can enter more focused and expand. Or, in expression maybe it can pull from a pool of resources and narrow it's focus outward. It would seem the vertical nature itself would illustrate some differences in how a person perceives, and responds to their world. The pattern is more angular and less rounded than a loop or an arch.

A loop elongates a ridge and returns it to the same side of entry only now possibly leaning in the opposite direction (two view points one ridge) A whorl spirals inward, and often back outward. Very multidirectional and increases even more the length of a single ridge.

It would seem adding a single loop (or very low ridge count) would enhance or increase the 'dimensional sensors' represented in the fingerprint that is a basic arch or tented arch.

An increase and decrease in the number of looping and circling ridges would affect the number of horizontal ridges (rows of ridges leaning together in the same direction) above and below the central pattern, too.

Ridge counts are also used in studying syndromes in combination with other features.

Kiwi, I find your fingerprints really fascinating and have been studying them off and on these past few weeks. I'll share on your thread soon some thoughts. It's fun that you share your thoughts and insights about your self here as that peek into your personality gives more understanding into how your fingerprints relate to who you are.

Thanks!

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Post  jeanette on Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:26 pm

Hi Patti,
Thanks so much for that post. I was thinking exactly the same as Kiwihands and that was what I meant when I posted the question, is there an ideal fingerprint, only Kiwihands phrased it the way I had really wanted to. So thanks to you and Kiwihands we got that great information from you.
Jeanette.
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Post  kiwihands on Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:19 pm

Hi Patti,

Thanks heaps for your thoughtful reply. I was hoping you'd be following this and chipping in, what with your special interest in prints and their formation! I have copied your post into my personal compendium of insightful-things-to-ponder-about-palmistry-that-you-can't-find-in-books.cheers

Did you say in another thread that you were thinking about writing a book compiling the results of all your research into this topic?

What a fascinating way of looking at this. Your views make complete sense to me - considering fingerprints as symbols or manifestations of energy flow patterns, all the features that are overlooked by mere classification take on very distinct meanings.

All your interpretations seem very logical - indeed so "obvious" that now I'm wondering how this didn't occur to me before. Haha, I guess this is where lots of experience comes in! I'm also wondering what your birth card may be in Tarot (have my suspicions of course) - would you mind sharing this if you know it, or your birth date? Perhaps as a private message ... I know a lady never tells her age.
sunny

Thank you for mentioning the fact that ridge counts are used in studying certain syndromes - a quick search of PubMed turned up 250 results for "dermatoglyphics ridge count"! Woohoo. This snippet I found very odd: "The male schizophrenic patients showed a significantly higher total finger ridge count of each hand and TFRC than the control group. [...] The schizophrenic females had lower ridge count than the control group females." Haha, what do you make of that. The number of patients was probably too low to generalise (76), but certainly food for thought.

I'm honoured that you would find my fingerprints interesting! Thank you for your time; I really look forward to reading some of your thoughts on my thread when you get around to it. I'll always endeavour to give as much detailed and honest feedback as I can - it's the least I can do.

Cheers
*Kiwi*

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Post  Lynn on Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:54 pm

hi kiwi, Patti & Jeanette,

re Kiwi
I wasn't so much referring to elements as to the fact that in other aspects of palm reading it is quite rare to find a feature that fits perfectly into one category - instead there is a continuum along which we try to interpret signs.
sorry I have a bee in my bonnet about elemental hand reading ;-) cos many people think it only applies to handshape. In handshape I would agree about the continuum (eg slightly narrow fire hand with medium fingers = fire with a bit of water etc.), and I perfectly understand what you are saying about things like 'degrees of curvature of headline'.

Like Patti, I also think of the lines and skin ridges as energy flows. Patti's example of a classic tented arch with a central triradius funnelling the energy up and out is how I think of it.

re Kiwi
can't really believe that a well-developed loop of 15 ridges should be treated the same as a single ridge loop with a central triradius. Sticking with the elemental lingo, the latter would, to me, express at least as much fire as water.

hmmm, single ridge loop with central triradius, sounds like no ridge count so in FBI that would be a tented arch! (don't get us started on that!! Twisted Evil ). However, in a reading I would think the water element of even a single ridge loop modifies the intensity of the fire tented arch in the personality. But that's just my way of thinking about it, I don't think I've ever read in any palmistry books about such compensatory features in interpretation of fingerprints. (till Patti writes her book!!). Tho of course, as Patti said, the ridge count is very important in scientific terms.

Kiwi, I find your fingerprints really fascinating too! The one we spoke about earlier looked like a tented arch to me, as it did to Patti. But on looking again I thought I saw a couple of single ridge loops in opposite directions (maybe I am hallucinating!). I look forward to Patti's input on your thread, cos I am not sure what I am seeing in your prints. (oh no, here we go again!! Disney deja-vu!! lol! ) I also appreciate your input and feedback.

Jeanette, great that this thread has helped re your "ideal fingerprint" question.

I just LURVE talking about dermatoglyphics! I love you

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Post  Patti on Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:34 am

jeanette wrote:Hi Patti,
Thanks so much for that post. I was thinking exactly the same as Kiwihands and that was what I meant when I posted the question, is there an ideal fingerprint, only Kiwihands phrased it the way I had really wanted to. So thanks to you and Kiwihands we got that great information from you.
Jeanette.

Thank you Jeanette!! sunny
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Post  Patti on Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:53 am

kiwihands wrote:Hi Patti,

Thanks heaps for your thoughtful reply. I was hoping you'd be following this and chipping in, what with your special interest in prints and their formation! I have copied your post into my personal compendium of insightful-things-to-ponder-about-palmistry-that-you-can't-find-in-books.cheers

Did you say in another thread that you were thinking about writing a book compiling the results of all your research into this topic?

What a fascinating way of looking at this. Your views make complete sense to me - considering fingerprints as symbols or manifestations of energy flow patterns, all the features that are overlooked by mere classification take on very distinct meanings.

All your interpretations seem very logical - indeed so "obvious" that now I'm wondering how this didn't occur to me before. Haha, I guess this is where lots of experience comes in! I'm also wondering what your birth card may be in Tarot (have my suspicions of course) - would you mind sharing this if you know it, or your birth date? Perhaps as a private message ... I know a lady never tells her age.
sunny

Thank you for mentioning the fact that ridge counts are used in studying certain syndromes - a quick search of PubMed turned up 250 results for "dermatoglyphics ridge count"! Woohoo. This snippet I found very odd: "The male schizophrenic patients showed a significantly higher total finger ridge count of each hand and TFRC than the control group. [...] The schizophrenic females had lower ridge count than the control group females." Haha, what do you make of that. The number of patients was probably too low to generalise (76), but certainly food for thought.

I'm honoured that you would find my fingerprints interesting! Thank you for your time; I really look forward to reading some of your thoughts on my thread when you get around to it. I'll always endeavour to give as much detailed and honest feedback as I can - it's the least I can do.

Cheers
*Kiwi*

Hi Kiwi,
I'm flattered to be included in your "personal compendium of insightful-things-to-ponder-about-palmistry-that-you-can't-find-in-books" !!! That is so cool!

My number based on my birth date is 9, The Hermit. Which card were you thinking?

Isn't PubMed awesome!? You can get lost in there for hours as one link leads you to many more.

Coincidentally, I came across this link to a study that answers your question:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20071110

Interestingly, in this study on Chinese and Malaysian people, men tend to normally have a lower average ridge count than women. So, it would seem that the study you found on the schizophrenic patients shows that when the counts are switched and the males have higher counts and the females lower counts, it drives them 'crazy'. lol! But that's a whole new topic!

flower


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Post  Patti on Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:14 am

Lynn wrote:
Kiwi, I find your fingerprints really fascinating too! The one we spoke about earlier looked like a tented arch to me, as it did to Patti. But on looking again I thought I saw a couple of single ridge loops in opposite directions (maybe I am hallucinating!). I look forward to Patti's input on your thread, cos I am not sure what I am seeing in your prints. (oh no, here we go again!! Disney deja-vu!! lol! ) I also appreciate your input and feedback.

I just LURVE talking about dermatoglyphics! I love you

I saw the same thing Lynn! But the loop from the left, is spoiled by the appendage - otherwise, it'd be worth at least 10 to 15 pages of discussion!! Yet, that's only according to classification, perhaps there's something to these short spike like ending ridges sitting atop a recurve on a loop. A laser beam of energy or a focused antennae, or whatever..?

tented arch like loops - Page 2 Kiwi_r10

(this is from printing out the image and tracing with colored highlighters - just for fun - so I'm sure clarity is lost as well as I wasn't trying to stay perfectly on the lines)

I don't want to switch subjects here.

I'll post tomorrow on Kiwi's thread. As they say on the social networks and to quote you "we'll share some of the LURVE. Wink


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Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:52 pm

Patti wrote:
kiwihands wrote:Hi Patti,

Thanks heaps for your thoughtful reply. I was hoping you'd be following this and chipping in, what with your special interest in prints and their formation! I have copied your post into my personal compendium of insightful-things-to-ponder-about-palmistry-that-you-can't-find-in-books.cheers

Did you say in another thread that you were thinking about writing a book compiling the results of all your research into this topic?

What a fascinating way of looking at this. Your views make complete sense to me - considering fingerprints as symbols or manifestations of energy flow patterns, all the features that are overlooked by mere classification take on very distinct meanings.

All your interpretations seem very logical - indeed so "obvious" that now I'm wondering how this didn't occur to me before. Haha, I guess this is where lots of experience comes in! I'm also wondering what your birth card may be in Tarot (have my suspicions of course) - would you mind sharing this if you know it, or your birth date? Perhaps as a private message ... I know a lady never tells her age.
sunny

Thank you for mentioning the fact that ridge counts are used in studying certain syndromes - a quick search of PubMed turned up 250 results for "dermatoglyphics ridge count"! Woohoo. This snippet I found very odd: "The male schizophrenic patients showed a significantly higher total finger ridge count of each hand and TFRC than the control group. [...] The schizophrenic females had lower ridge count than the control group females." Haha, what do you make of that. The number of patients was probably too low to generalise (76), but certainly food for thought.

I'm honoured that you would find my fingerprints interesting! Thank you for your time; I really look forward to reading some of your thoughts on my thread when you get around to it. I'll always endeavour to give as much detailed and honest feedback as I can - it's the least I can do.

Cheers
*Kiwi*

Hi Kiwi,
I'm flattered to be included in your "personal compendium of insightful-things-to-ponder-about-palmistry-that-you-can't-find-in-books" !!! That is so cool!

My number based on my birth date is 9, The Hermit. Which card were you thinking?

Isn't PubMed awesome!? You can get lost in there for hours as one link leads you to many more.

Coincidentally, I came across this link to a study that answers your question:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20071110

Interestingly, in this study on Chinese and Malaysian people, men tend to normally have a lower average ridge count than women. So, it would seem that the study you found on the schizophrenic patients shows that when the counts are switched and the males have higher counts and the females lower counts, it drives them 'crazy'. lol! But that's a whole new topic!

flower


Patti, you've misread the summary of the Chinese/Malaysian study: they only consider 'ridge density' - which is not related to the fingerprint pattern, nor the 'ridge count'..

While the study mentioned by Kiwihands only considers the 'ridge count' assessment - which does relate to the fingerprint pattern.


By the way, men typically have a HIGHER 'ridge count' than women (because whorls are usually more commen in the hands of men, and arches usually more common in women). And men typically have a LOWER 'ridge density' than women.


PS. Cummins & Midlo described the typical sexe differences for 'ridge count' + 'ridge density' (= ridge count per centimer) [see page 272 + 273 in: Finger Prints, Palms & Soles].

___________________________________________
sunny

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Post  Patti on Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:21 pm

Thanks Martijn for pointing that out. It makes the studies and comparisons between male and female even more intriquing and complex. Of course, since men tend to have courser ridges than woman on the spectrum of ridge size, density would make sense, too.
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Post  Patti on Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:34 pm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10423851

"In the past it has been assumed that the fingerprints of women tend to have "fine" epidermal ridge detail while men have "coarse" ridge detail. Past studies have examined this hypothesis but have not clearly demonstrated if observed differences are statistically significant."

"Application of Bayes' theorem suggests that a given fingerprint possessing a ridge density of 11 ridges/25 mm2 or less is most likely to be of male origin. Likewise a fingerprint having a ridge density of 12 ridges/25 mm2 or greater is most likely to be of female origin, regardless of race."


But, where does this leave us with the schizophrenics and the differences in the ridge counts?


Last edited by Patti on Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:39 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : correction)
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:35 pm

Patti wrote:Thanks Martijn for pointing that out. It makes the studies and comparisons between male and female even more intriquing and complex. Of course, since men tend to have courser ridges than woman on the spectrum of ridge size, density would make sense, too.
Exactly! Thumbs up!

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sunny

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:38 pm

Patti wrote:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10423851

"In the past it has been assumed that the fingerprints of women tend to have "fine" epidermal ridge detail while men have "coarse" ridge detail. Past studies have examined this hypothesis but have not clearly demonstrated if observed differences are statistically significant."

"Application of Bayes' theorem suggests that a given fingerprint possessing a ridge density of 11 ridges/25 mm2 or less is most likely to be of male origin. Likewise a fingerprint having a ridge density of 12 ridges/25 mm2 or greater is most likely to be of female origin, regardless of race."


But, where does this leave us with the schizophrenics and the differences in the ridge counts?

Patti, first of all: again... you should not associate/mix 'ridge count' with 'ridge density'.


Second, Amrita Bagga's book Dermatoglyphics in Schizophrenics reports results for various samples of schizophrenia populations (in total 965 schizophrenia subjects, 210 family controls, 300 caste controls).

Nearly all aspects of the results pointed out that 'ridge count' does not vary significantly between schizophrenics and controls (1800 subjects). And in 3 out of the 4 studies schizonphrenia groups the sexe differences were not significant either.


CONCLUSION: The sexe-difference described in the study mentioned by Kiwihands... could very well be the result of the fact that it concerns a study focussed on a rather small population (N=76).

By the way, Kiwihands forgot to mention that the results for the women in the Bulgarian study were not significant at all, see:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19957559

Anyway, I think the sexe difference reported in that study is not very large at all; and so far there appears to be no confirming evidence (based on larger populations).

So far I think we better not put too much meaning to those results (because of the lack of confirming evidence from larger populations).

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sunny

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Post  kiwihands on Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:14 am

Hi Lynn,

thanks for your response! Haha, a "bee in your bonnet"! Yes I understand what you meant, and I fully agree.
And you caught me again, in the act of writing without properly thinking or proofreading! When I said "single ridge loop" I meant "a loop with a ridge count of one" - two completely different things!
lol!

Great to hear that you would also modify the interpretation of a print in a reading, based on whether it includes a small element of a different category pattern. This is exactly what I was wondering, and I guess nomenclature is secondary as long as in the actual reading modifications can be made. In my own notes of practice readings, I think it will help me if I use mixed types where applicable, but I can see that more experienced chirologists may not need this crutch.

This forum is so inspiring! What a blessing to have access to the opinions and thoughts of all of you.

Cheers
Kiwi



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Post  kiwihands on Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:35 am

Hi Patti,

Thanks for letting me know your birth card! I have to admit I was thinking you were a 2 (High Priestess) - I think I got this idea when I saw one of your comments on another thread, something along the lines of you loving synchronicity, but also from your intuitive approach and your humour, not taking things too seriously. (The latter probably has nothing to do with birth cards, but I've seen it in all High Priestesses I've come across.) The Hermit, however, makes even more sense in retrospect! Brilliant. I seem to have some natural affinity with Hermits - my brother and father are Hermits, as are most of my closest friends (3 of 4). But I know this is off topic, so will zip it!

I love PubMed! It's responsible for many times of me going "dang, and I had so much work to do!"
geek


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Post  Lynn on Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:38 am

hi kiwi,
Laughing sorry, English phrase "bee in my bonnet" roughly translates as "something buzzing in my head that I get fanatical about" !

When I said "single ridge loop" I meant "a loop with a ridge count of one" - two completely different things!
I used to think they were the same thing, but now I have learnt more about cores, deltas, shoulder lines etc, I understand the difference!

Great to hear that you would also modify the interpretation of a print in a reading, based on whether it includes a small element of a different category pattern. This is exactly what I was wondering...
As Martijn said, there is a difference between classification & interpretation. There are strict rules for classification, and Martijn's right that if we get a correct classification we are on a better road to interpretation. Interpretation is more open to whatever system of handreading the reader learnt. And, as I previously said - when doing a face-to-face reading we don't have the luxury of time & facility to look at the print 10x zoom etc, so we have to do our 'best guess'.

This forum is so inspiring! What a blessing to have access to the opinions and thoughts of all of you.
Isn't the internet wonderful! cheers When I first started (22 years ago), hand reading was a very lonely business. I had no PC / internet, and very few people around me were interested in the subject. I am very grateful that nowadays we are able to discuss with hand readers worldwide. There is always more to learn. I love it!!!

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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:42 am

see a post was just posted as I started to post, so posting anyway without reading Very Happy

kiwihands wrote:Hi Lynn,

thanks for your response! Haha, a "bee in your bonnet"! Yes I understand what you meant, and I fully agree.
And you caught me again, in the act of writing without properly thinking or proofreading! When I said "single ridge loop" I meant "a loop with a ridge count of one" - two completely different things!
lol!

Great to hear that you would also modify the interpretation of a print in a reading, based on whether it includes a small element of a different category pattern. This is exactly what I was wondering, and I guess nomenclature is secondary as long as in the actual reading modifications can be made. In my own notes of practice readings, I think it will help me if I use mixed types where applicable, but I can see that more experienced chirologists may not need this crutch.

This forum is so inspiring! What a blessing to have access to the opinions and thoughts of all of you.

Cheers
Kiwi



Hi Kiwi!
Lynn and I had a similar conversation many years ago. I read hands using the concept of a spectrum. Something like how you see the head line slanting a lot versus a little. Everything in the palm can be placed in some kind of range from one territory, shape, size, texture etc, to the other polarity. Lynn then explained to me that she viewed the Elemental system the same way, in her way.

Elements can be a helpful addition. It's like a visual image for me. Fire with some water leads me to think of something hot and steamy. All fire would be like a desert, add some water and you have an oasis.
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Post  Lynn on Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:43 am

Yeah I know the tarot is off topic here, but I am interested in what kiwihands and patti are talking about, so I will start a new thread for tarot. Please catch up with me there!

(edit) tarot topic started at https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t692-tarot-cards#6184


Last edited by Lynn on Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:11 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post  kiwihands on Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:44 am

Hi Martijn,

thanks for your input clarifying my question on the schizophrenics study! Yes, I was also thinking that the number of subjects was too low to generalise. So much to learn!

Cheers
Kiwi




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tented arch like loops - Page 2 Empty Re: tented arch like loops

Post  Lynn on Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:49 am

Patti wrote:Hi Kiwi!
Lynn and I had a similar conversation many years ago. I read hands using the concept of a spectrum. Something like how you see the head line slanting a lot versus a little. Everything in the palm can be placed in some kind of range from one territory, shape, size, texture etc, to the other polarity. Lynn then explained to me that she viewed the Elemental system the same way, in her way.

Patti, I have no idea how you remember conversations we had years ago. I can't remember what I said yesterday! But I am glad that apparently we agreed Laughing Yeah it is all a spectrum, and all based on looking in conjunction with all other aspects of the hand. Quite complex really!

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tented arch like loops - Page 2 Empty Re: tented arch like loops

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:15 am

kiwihands wrote:Hi Martijn,

thanks for your input clarifying my question on the schizophrenics study! Yes, I was also thinking that the number of subjects was too low to generalise. So much to learn!

Cheers
Kiwi

Thanks!

___________________________________________
sunny

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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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tented arch like loops - Page 2 Empty Tented arch vs loop

Post  cpb on Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:19 pm

tented arch like loops - Page 2 PC302374

Martijn,

A while ago a member Sajin Nadeem posted a comment about the possibility to see a loop and tented arch at the same time but could not forward a picture reflecting is thought process. Even if this impossible maybe the following photo could be useful : loop or tented arch?

Carl


Last edited by cpb on Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:39 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Photo did not load up)

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tented arch like loops - Page 2 Empty Re: tented arch like loops

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:08 pm

cpb wrote:tented arch like loops - Page 2 PC302374

Martijn,

A while ago a member Sajin Nadeem posted a comment about the possibility to see a loop and tented arch at the same time but could not forward a picture reflecting is thought process. Even if this impossible maybe the following photo could be useful : loop or tented arch?

Carl

Hello cpb,

In my perception there is no doubt that according the FBI principles your example displays a 'loop' because it has a core, a triradius, and a ridge count: N=4 (see pictures below).

Technically, in a tented arch at least one of those three features is missing.


wave

tented arch like loops - Page 2 Cpb10

tented arch like loops - Page 2 Cpb-zo10

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Post  cpb on Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:20 pm

Martijn,

I did refer to figure 163, 164 and 166 before posting it there is a merging from the left side to the zone that you are referring to in addition there is an appendage impeding the recurve that's why I had to rule out the loop. I am still not 100% convince yet.

Thank you

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tented arch like loops - Page 2 Empty Re: tented arch like loops

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:11 pm

cpb wrote:Martijn,

I did refer to figure 163, 164 and 166 before posting it there is a merging from the left side to the zone that you are referring to in addition there is an appendage impeding the recurve that's why I had to rule out the loop. I am still not 100% convince yet.

Thank you

Sorry cpb, in the picture below I don't see any (clear) "appendage impeding the recurve"; I also can not confirm that FBI examples 163, 164 and 166 are similar to your example.

wave

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tented arch like loops - Page 2 Empty Type lines

Post  cpb on Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:31 pm

Martijn,

What tool do you use to add lines and dots on the photo, that might help me too. What would be great for me to better understand is to see the path that you have chosen for the type lines. I also don't understand the exact core location that you have selected and the recurve.

I have use shoe polish to get a better look at the picture. I am getting old and my eyes might not be reliable enough. Thank you

tented arch like loops - Page 2 PC312376

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