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VI - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

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Post  Patti on Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:12 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:
Patti wrote:
Lynn wrote:They are referring to a heartline, with an extra bit of headline attached to it, plus accessory headline.

The idea that there's an "extra bit of head line attached to it" isn't necessary (in my opinion)

But that is the definition of it! II + III with accessory II (head + heart with accessory head) so there must be that 'extra bit of headline' attached to heartline for it to be classed as a Suwon.

Exactly! That's correct Lynn.

Patti has the 'opinion' that the 'Suwon crease' is basically not much more than a very long heart line... which extends to the thumb side of the palm. But such heart line variants are seen about 10-times more often than the prevalence a Suwon crease (Korean study reported a prevalence of 0.5%).

The small result reflects all those they rejected as variants and completed by minor creases.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:21 am

Lynn wrote:I see your point about discussing the nature of the Sydney line.
The researchers example of the Suwon is on a curved heartline. Could there be a Suwon which was a short straight heartline with extra headline added (which in the past we would have called a long straight heartline).

Sorry ladies, I think it is obvious that the 'Suwon crease' is a much more complex line than the Sydney line... and therefore a discussion about the Sydney, is really a different topic and therefore I expect that it will not help us ANYHOW(!!) in this discussion.


Lynn, regarding your (green) question... my answer would be a clear: no!!

Let me explain...

Because IF one can not discriminate the presence of an 'extra head line' from a simple straight 'heart line' (which has not 'splittings' of 'branches'), then one can ALWAYS simply speak about a COMPLETE TRANSVERSING HEART LINE!!

Your example is really an interesting case to think about ... because your example relates to a very essential fundamental point....

Because one SHOULD BE AWARE that all vocubalary that we are using (simian line, Sydney line, Suwon crease, etc) ... is only meant to describe and recognized typical variations in the primary creases.

So, if we the researchers had started 'straight heart lines which transverse the full palm' ... as a 'Suwon crease' that would actually have been STUPID!!

Because that is line variant has been known for decades, and obviously: it is much more common that the 'Suwon crease'. And after saying this, I think it makes sense why I for sure COMPLETELY REJECT the idea that the Korean researchers could have included any simple 'complete transvering heart line' as a 'Suwon crease'.

So at end, Lynn, your example in the green question ... is really not much more than a 'theoritical issue'!!

'Capice'? Wink

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Post  Lynn on Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:23 am

Patti wrote:(oooh I hope I make it to work on time!)

Fig. 5 Lynn (note word *variant*)

I hope you get to work on time too. go, go go!!!

Thanks, I looked at fig 5 & notice the variants. Still nothing about minor lines there though!


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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:32 am

Patti wrote:The small result reflects all those they rejected as variants and completed by minor creases.

Sorry Patti, I don't understand at all what you're trying to point out here... but I do recognize that your thought can not be less than: 100% speculation.


(EDIT: Though it looks like... you're trying to 'rationalize' why you are finding many more Suwon creases than the researchers did in their sample (0.5%)... btw. I am not yet ready to present any well-researched statistics, though I can report that I found only 1 case in a control sample of 200 Dutch males)


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:21 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Post  Lynn on Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:48 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:I see your point about discussing the nature of the Sydney line.
The researchers example of the Suwon is on a curved heartline. Could there be a Suwon which was a short straight heartline with extra headline added (which in the past we would have called a long straight heartline).

Sorry ladies, I think it is obvious that the 'Suwon crease' is a much more complex line than the Sydney line... and therefore a discussion about the Sydney, is really a different topic and therefore I expect that it will not help us ANYHOW(!!) in this discussion.


Lynn, regarding your (green) question... my answer would be a clear: no!!

Let me explain...

Because IF one can not discriminate the presence of an 'extra head line' from a simple straight 'heart line' (which has not 'splittings' of 'branches'), then one can ALWAYS simply speak about a COMPLETE TRANSVERSING HEART LINE!!

Your example is really an interesting case to think about ... because your example relates to a very essential fundamental point....

Because one SHOULD BE AWARE that all vocubalary that we are using (simian line, Sydney line, Suwon crease, etc) ... is only meant to describe and recognized typical variations in the primary creases.

So, if we the researchers had started 'straight heart lines which transverse the full palm' ... as a 'Suwon crease' that would actually have been STUPID!!

Because that is line variant has been known for decades, and obviously: it is much more common that the 'Suwon crease'. And after saying this, I think it makes sense why I for sure COMPLETELY REJECT the idea that the Korean researchers could have included any simple 'complete transvering heart line' as a 'Suwon crease'.

So at end, Lynn, your example in the green question ... is really not much more than a 'theoritical issue'!!

'Capice'? Wink

Yes it's just theoretical speculation. Because we only have one example of Suwon there is a lot to speculate about. maybe it is a stupid idea. Banana waving maybe I'm partly playing devil's advocate Twisted Evil But I understand why Patti thinks it might be useful to discuss Sydney definitions (on another thread).

Because...

Just as the COMPLETE TRANSVERSING HEART LINE has been known for decades.
The Sydney line has also been known for decades as a 'head line which transverses the full palm'. BUT Now the researchers are bringing a new perspective to it, by telling us to look at the sydney line in a new way - as II & III joined.

So the questions arise -
1) are there Sydney variants that are just completely straight head lines (line II) , and others which are composed of head line elongated by an extra bit of heartline (II & III)?
2) could there be two types of complete transverse heart line - some that are just plain long heart lines and others that have an extra bit of headline added at the end.

yep, just speculation. but is it really such a stupid idea?

(edit) PS re
I think it is obvious that the 'Suwon crease' is a much more complex line than the Sydney line
but is it according to the researchers definitions?
Sydney = II+III + accessory III
Suwon = III + II + accessory II

sounds equally complex.


Last edited by Lynn on Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:02 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:53 am

Lynn wrote:
Thanks, I looked at fig 5 & notice the variants. Still nothing about minor lines there though!
Well spotted Lynn! Thumbs up!

I could even use that as another argument for a point that I made much earlier in this discussion: the researchers' comments on the issue of discriminating 'minor lines' from 'major lines' (via STRICT definitions)... probably has not been an (important) issue regarding how to recognize Suwon creases.


At least, I didn't need their criteria related to ridge-line-width to recognize ANY of the 'Suwon crease' examples that I have confirmed in this discussion. So, I can understand why the researchers did not include any additional clue for the 'Suwon crease' related to the issue of 'minor lines' vs. 'major lines'.

Another point where I am willing to describe Patti's option as... 100% speculation (for she claims to have found 'clues' in the Korean article, but by fact there are no DIRECT clues at all for making that assumption).

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:03 am

Lynn wrote:
yep, just speculation. but is it really such a stupid idea?

Lynn, I hope that you noticed... that I didn't describe your example as 'stupid'!

Because your example actually raises a 'key-issue' (and even relates to this issue: why on earth do we give certain hand lines a name... while we know: just like every single fingerprint is different, extactly the same is true of every line!).


But basically, using a system in which one single heart-line variant ... could be labelled by two different names, that would simply be a STUPID decision!

And therefore, I have no doubt at all that all line variants which could be described as a 'complete transversing heart line'... are rejected to be included under the label 'Suwon crease'.

Please confirm, does this now makes sense for you as well?

(If not, I will need to elaborate on this point, because I immediately recognized that this is actually a 'key-issue' in this discussion)

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Post  Lynn on Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:15 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:
yep, just speculation. but is it really such a stupid idea?

Lynn, I hope that you noticed... that I didn't describe your example as 'stupid'!

Because your example actually raises a 'key-issue' (and even relates to this issue: why on earth do we give certain hand lines a name... while we know: just like every single fingerprint is different, extactly the same is true of every line!).


But basically, using a system in which one single heart-line variant ... could be labelled by two different names, that would simply be a STUPID decision!

And therefore, I have no doubt at all that all line variants which could be described as a 'complete transversing heart line'... are rejected to be included under the label 'Suwon crease'.

Please confirm, does this now makes sense for you as well?

(If not, I will need to elaborate on this point, because I immediately recognized that this is actually a 'key-issue' in this discussion)

You said
So, if we the researchers had started 'straight heart lines which transverse the full palm' ... as a 'Suwon crease' that would actually have been STUPID!!
(actually some typos there, I guess you meant to delete 'we' and write 'stated' instead of 'started'. )
therefore I inferred that my idea that a short straight heartline with an extra bit of headline at the end could perhaps be a Suwon, is a stupid idea. geek (I didn't take any offence tho, it might indeed be a stupid idea).

btw There is nothing in their definition that says it has to be a CURVED III + II + accessory II.

re
basically, using a system in which one single heart-line variant ... could be labelled by two different names, that would simply be a STUPID decision!
hence why a Sydney line discussion might be useful. I think there could be two types - one being a continuous line and one which has an extra bit of heartline at the end.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:23 am

Lynn wrote:
...
The Sydney line has also been known for decades as a 'head line which transverses the full palm'. BUT Now the researchers are bringing a new perspective to it, by telling us to look at the sydney line in a new way - as II & III joined.

So the questions arise -
1) are there Sydney variants that are just completely straight head lines (line II) , and others which are composed of head line elongated by an extra bit of heartline (II & III)?
2) could there be two types of complete transverse heart line - some that are just plain long heart lines and others that have an extra bit of headline added at the end.

yep, just speculation. but is it really such a stupid idea?

(edit) PS re
I think it is obvious that the 'Suwon crease' is a much more complex line than the Sydney line
but is it according to the researchers definitions?
Sydney = II+III + accessory III
Suwon = III + II + accessory II

sounds equally complex.

Lynn, regarding your additional questions...

I think we all agree that how the Korean researchers described the issue of the Sydney line... this can be described as an 'innovation'.


But regarding the Sydney, this 'innovation' doesn't really have implications. Because regarding the Sydney line it doesn't matter if one is able to recognize 1 or 2 components... because in both cases (assuming that even when 2 components involved there is still a continuing line): there is not other classication possible... in both cases we call them a Sydney line. We would have done that before reading the Korean article; and we also do that after reading the Korean article.

That is why I just described that the part of their 'innovation' has no implications.


But how different is the situation for the heart line!!

I hope you understand why I have the opinion that the issue of the Sydney line will probably not help us to understand the complex nature of the 'Suwon crease'!?


PS. I short answer to your questions:

1) Yes, we already knew that their are multiple Sydney line variants (the Korean researchers have described multiple variants in their article... but all of their 6 variants was have been described in quite a few models in earlier publications).

2) Yes, but only the second variant that you described can be described as a 'Suwon crease' (= II+III plus accessory head line) - while you first variant can simply be described as: a 'heart line transvering the full palm' + normal head line.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:36 am

Lynn wrote: (1)... therefore I inferred that my idea that a short straight heartline with an extra bit of headline at the end could perhaps be a Suwon, is a stupid idea. geek (I didn't take any offence tho, it might indeed be a stupid idea).

(2) btw There is nothing in their definition that says it has to be a CURVED III + II + accessory II.

re
basically, using a system in which one single heart-line variant ... could be labelled by two different names, that would simply be a STUPID decision!
(3) hence why a Sydney line discussion might be useful. I think there could be two types - one being a continuous line and one which has an extra bit of heartline at the end.

(Sorry for the typos: too late to correct these... but I noticed that it didn't prevent you from understanding my point)


1 - Okay, great to hat you get my point and appear to understand why I started to use the word 'stupid'. Very Happy

2 - Sorry, I don't understand why you mention the 'curve'... I think it was only Patti who used that as an argument much earlier in this discussion (because I am very aware that many head lines have likewise curves, and long heart lines can show a likewise curve - so I would never use that as argument to decide whether an example is a 'Suwon crease' or not).

3 - In my former comment I described why I think that a discussion about the Sydney doesn't confront us with the same problem. And I foresee that it will not really add much more than what has already been said about that line earlier in this discussion.

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Post  Lynn on Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:38 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
But regarding the Sydney, this 'innovation' doesn't really have implications.

But I think it does, from the perspective of analysing hands. eg pure air element vs air with water at the end = very different interpretations!

whereas I think the new Suwon crease doesn't have so many new implications from an interpretation point of view. It is still acting as a splitting heart line (lower 'fork' being more air element, higher more water).

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Post  Lynn on Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:43 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:2 - Sorry, I don't understand why you mention the 'curve'... I think it was only Patti who used that as an argument much earlier in this discussion (because I am very aware that many head lines have likewise curves, and long heart lines can show a likewise curve - so I would never use that as argument to decide whether an example is a 'Suwon crease' or not).

Because you already said that a straight heartline with extra bit of II would be a complete transverse heartline. So, for it to be classed as a Suwon line, that implicates that the main heartline has to be curved as in the researchers example. BUT there is nothing in their definition that says it has to be a CURVED III + II + accessory II.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:46 am

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
But regarding the Sydney, this 'innovation' doesn't really have implications.

But I think it does, from the perspective of analysing hands. eg pure air element vs air with water at the end = very different interpretations!

whereas I think the new Suwon crease doesn't have so many new implications from an interpretation point of view. It is still acting as a splitting heart line (lower 'fork' being more air element, higher more water).

Well... yes, I recognize that this is could generate an interesting discussion from the 'Elemental point of view'. (But let's not confuse the Elemental point of view - (edit:) which relates to INTERPRETATION - ... with the specified perspective of related to the Suwon crease).


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:08 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post  Lynn on Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:53 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:Well... yes, I recognize that this is could generate an interesting discussion from the 'Elemental point of view'. (But let's not confuse the Elemental point of view... with the specified perspective of related to the Suwon crease).

It's not just the elemental point of view, (sorry I used element terms). It is any hand analysis where the head and heart lines (thought and emotion) are taken into account.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:57 am

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:2 - Sorry, I don't understand why you mention the 'curve'... I think it was only Patti who used that as an argument much earlier in this discussion (because I am very aware that many head lines have likewise curves, and long heart lines can show a likewise curve - so I would never use that as argument to decide whether an example is a 'Suwon crease' or not).

Because you already said that a straight heartline with extra bit of II would be a complete transverse heartline. So, for it to be classed as a Suwon line, that implicates that the main heartline has to be curved as in the researchers example. BUT there is nothing in their definition that says it has to be a CURVED III + II + accessory II.

Hmm... Lynn, maybe you are raising another interesting point.

But for sure: I could imagine that even a completely straight heart line, can be featured with a branching (connecting) extra head line. And I am sure that you can imagine that as well.

So, on top of the point that I made earlier - that both head lines and heart lines can display a typical curve at the radial side - I think that one should better not adopt a curve as a REQUIREMENT.

I hope this makes sense!?


PS. Though, differences in the 'curving' of various line parts is an aspect that one could consider for recognizing a 'Suwon crease' (so maybe I could add that element as well to my list of potential characteristics... not sure yet)

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:07 am

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:Well... yes, I recognize that this is could generate an interesting discussion from the 'Elemental point of view'. (But let's not confuse the Elemental point of view... with the specified perspective of related to the Suwon crease).

It's not just the elemental point of view, (sorry I used element terms). It is any hand analysis where the head and heart lines (thought and emotion) are taken into account.

Yes Lynn, I can confirm that as well ... but the 'thought and emotion' perspective also relates to INTERPRETATION.

While, regarding the issue: 'how to recognize as Suwon crease'... I think we are really talking about a completely different (physical) perspective.


So, I would really prefer to see a NEW TOPIC for discussion that specific aspect of the Sydney line. And I am sure that it could become a likewise interesting discussion.

But I really would prefer not to mix that topic in this discussion: because so far in this discussion we have been talking almost exclusively about the fundamental perspective (interpretation is a different perspective).

I hope this makes sense!?


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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:11 am


Anyone ... By the way, did I leave so far any questions left in this discussion???


PS. I think I have described a 'crystal clear' opinion about the Suwon crease. And I think that Lynn was able to relate to all aspects that I described, and has confirmed far most of my observations & interpretations.


Like a Star @ heaven Like a Star @ heaven Like a Star @ heaven Lynn, thank you for your (independent) confirming feedback!! Like a Star @ heaven Like a Star @ heaven Like a Star @ heaven

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Post  Lynn on Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:13 am

Yes of course, we are talking here about how to RECOGNISE a Suwon line. Any further discussion about interpretation is a whole new topic! Thumbs up!

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Post  Lynn on Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:17 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:But for sure: I could imagine that even a completely straight heart line, can be featured with a branching (connecting) extra head line. And I am sure that you can imagine that as well.

Lynn wrote: Could there be a Suwon which was a short straight heartline with extra headline added (which in the past we would have called a long straight heartline).

erm, what's the difference between what you just said and my "stupid idea" ? (yes I know you didn't exactly say it was a 'stupid idea' ;-))

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn, thank you for your (independent) confirming feedback!!
Thanks!
but you might notice that I didn't confirm everything, I also asked a lot of questions Razz

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:30 am

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:But for sure: I could imagine that even a completely straight heart line, can be featured with a branching (connecting) extra head line. And I am sure that you can imagine that as well.

Lynn wrote: Could there be a Suwon which was a short straight heartline with extra headline added (which in the past we would have called a long straight heartline).

erm, what's the difference between what you just said and my "stupid idea" ? (yes I know you didn't exactly say it was a 'stupid idea' ;-))

'Simples'... Wink

Dear Lynn, you probably missed that I mentioned the word 'branching'... which implicates that (edit:) what I had in mind was an example of two 'straight' lines, where the connection between the two lines is made somewhere halfway the heart line.

While you didn't mention any 'branching' (nor 'splitting')... so I concluded that you had been talking about 2 lines which are positioned in (almost) the same direction. (Correct?)

I hope this now makes sense... as well!?

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Post  Lynn on Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:43 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:'Simples'... Wink

Dear Lynn, you probably missed that I mentioned the word 'branching'... which implicates that the connection between the two lines is made somewhere halfway the heart line.

While you didn't mention any 'branching' (nor 'splitting')... so I concluded that you had been talking about 2 lines which are positioned in (almost) the same direction. (Correct?)

I hope this now makes sense... as well!?

re 'Simples'... Wink haha thank you for quoting my hero, Aleksandr Orlov (famous meerkat from UK insurance adverts - people please look him up on youtube!)

yes correct Martijn, I didn't mention any branching etc.

Ok that's me done for tonight! Sleep

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:53 am

Lynn wrote:
Thanks!
but you might notice that I didn't confirm everything, I also asked a lot of questions Razz

Sure Lynn, you asked many questions... and I have the impression that I didn't leave (m)any of your questions unanswered.

But your responses gave me the impression that you sort of accepted (almost) all aspects in my answers, so I think that we are likely very close to an agreement regarding the basic question:

'How to recognize a Suwon crease?'

(But from my side.. no need to substantiate that agreement with more details)


Thumb up ... wishing you a good Sleep


PS. Excellent discussion! Your questions & Patti's questions have certainly helped me to sharpend my perception on the 'Suwon crease'. But I expect that it could take several months/years (the latter is likely) before the Suwon crease will show up in other publications. Anyway, I am glad that I coincidently found it in the Korean study!!

lol!

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:33 pm

Lynn wrote:
Hi Martijn. Yes I do notice those 3 things in the given example.
However, I am not sure why you took the passion line into consideration. Why is that line relevant?

Hi Lynn,

I left this question of yours unanswered...

Basically, the (double) passion line indicates that the Korean example really displays a heart line featured with a 'branch' - which is sort of positioned in the same direction as the passion line.

So, I recognized that element as a 'clue' that this example should NOT be described as a 'splitting heart line'!


Remember your 'Pythagoras' lessons?

I even suspect... that a 'splitting heart line' is a CONTRA-INDICATION for the presence of a Suwon crease - while a 'branching line', which is postioned at a certain angle to the flow-direction of the heart line could indicate the presence of a Suwon crease.

Sure, this is advanced speculation thinking ... but it should make sense by now!!?


PS. Though I realize that people who are not aware Pythagoras (and the related 'angles' in the triangle, etc.) might experience trouble to visualize/recognize the difference between a 'splitting heart line' and a 'branched heart lines'.


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post  Patti on Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:09 pm

Yes, I agree that the 'passion' line is a clue. I noticed and mentioned that too in much earlier posts.

The researchers mention that the coming together of the major creases on the radial edge was to support 'strong hand grip'.

If the heart line was "trying" to make that connection - especially if it were naturally curved upwards to the fingers - a hand regularly gripping something - such as perhaps a handle bar to a bicycle or a broom, vacuum sweeper, hand tools, etc. could create minor creases reflecting the stronger flexure or folding of the hand.

On the other hand, so to speak, some hands naturally develop with the radially based major creases of I, II, and III. I think the Korean researchers noted that the stronger hands had more of a tendency for the major creases to form radially.

Observing Martijn's male sample with the fine chained lines. Regardless of whether it's a true Suwon or not, it would appear that the radially aimed creases would be an indication of this hand adapting to a need for a strong hand grip. All that fine chaining would be an indicator to me of a hand with lots of flexibility whereas a hand with few fine lines and deep clear major lines would appear to have more solid or less malleable hand features.

If anyone's interested in knowing more about 'hand grip' a good book is:

"The Psychobiology of the Hand" (edited by Kevin J. Connolly) Loads of good information on the hand (not the creases involved). Especially the chapter "Developmental Disorders and the Use of Grip Force to Compensate for Inertial Forces During Voluntary Movement"





Last edited by Patti on Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:22 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : grammar)
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Post  Patti on Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:08 pm

Thinking about hand strength and grip, it would make sense that this pattern is more frequently seen in the left (or more typical non-dominant hand) than the right. The non-dominant hand is usually less strong and would have to 'adapt' to its environment, when a need for strong hand grip is required in both hands.
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