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VI - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males! - Page 9 Icon_minitime1Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:03 am by nishaghai

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VI - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males! - Page 9 Icon_minitime1Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:29 am by pravin kumar

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VI - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males! - Page 9 Icon_minitime1Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:24 am by nishaghai

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VI - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males! - Page 9 Icon_minitime1Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:25 pm by D

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VI - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

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VI - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males! - Page 9 Empty Re: VI - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

Post  Lynn on Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:51 pm

Patti wrote: At one time Sydney creases were clumped into the Simian category too. Many turn of the century writers take note of the single crease. They also take note when it's the heart line doing the transversing and the head line doing the transversing but they didn't know it was the Sydney line because those guys in Sydney may have not been born yet to name it.

Patti I hope you don't drop out of this discussion.

I'm a bit confused by your above comment. Maybe because I'm not aware when Sydney lines (or long transverse head lines) were clumped into Simian category.
Although the long transverse headline had not been called a 'sydney' yet, it is still a headline with a separate heartline.

You rightly say that "Many turn of the century writers take note of the single crease.They also take note when it's the heart line doing the transversing and the head line doing the transversing".
but that's talking about a SINGLE crease. (ie in position of headline it was 'head dominant' simian and in position of heartline it was more 'heart rules head' Simian).
But as you know, the Sydney also has heartline present, so how is it included in the writers noting a single crease. ?
sorry if I've missed your point.

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VI - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males! - Page 9 Empty Re: VI - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:47 pm

Lynn wrote:
Patti wrote: At one time Sydney creases were clumped into the Simian category too. Many turn of the century writers take note of the single crease. They also take note when it's the heart line doing the transversing and the head line doing the transversing but they didn't know it was the Sydney line because those guys in Sydney may have not been born yet to name it.

Patti I hope you don't drop out of this discussion.

I'm a bit confused by your above comment. Maybe because I'm not aware when Sydney lines (or long transverse head lines) were clumped into Simian category.
Although the long transverse headline had not been called a 'sydney' yet, it is still a headline with a separate heartline.
...

Hi Lynn,

Yes exactly: you've described the major difference between the Sydney line and the simian line. And for that reason ... a 'Sydney line' should NOT be discribed as a 'simian line variant'.

However... from Patti's feedback I recognize that because the 'II+III' element is found in the Korean forumula for not only the simian line, but also the Sydney line AND the Suwon crease... I now recognize that the formulas themselves (edit after Lynn's comment:) CREATE some additional confusion.

EDIT: But I am also aware that this problem will only manifest when people start interpretating the meaning of certain aspects in these forumulas. And therefore I still think that the Korean researchers did a phantastic job... and basically there is no need to change anything in their article. However, when people start these forumulas in 'out of context' considerations then unwanted side-effects can shows up. That is probably the only thing that I really learned from our discussion at this forum - next to that this discussion has been very helpful for me to become aware of the details that are really required to recognize a Suwon crease..

(That that is why earlier today I have described the unwanted side-effects of these forumulas)

And therefore one can not understand the hand-fundamentals behind of these formulas without the accessory comments + illustrations in the article. The forumales are not detailed enough for that purpose.

I think this again clearly illustrates that Patti's conclusions (see for example the quote below)... is the result of seeing things 'out of context'! (But I can accept that I might not be able to convince every participant in this discussion)

Patti wrote:...
I will agree that we are talking about simian variants. The Sydney and Suwon are simian variants....


Smile Lynn, now I would love to hear from you:
how does my observation regarding the side-effect of the Korean formulas sound to you?


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:19 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post  jeanette on Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:07 pm

Hi all,
I thought when Martijin showed the prints and gave the information that the Suwon crease, as it says, is a crease, not a line or a branch, but an actual crease. So this would make it, indeed, a noteworth discovery Am I right?
Jeanette.
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Post  Lynn on Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:42 pm

hi Jeanette,
"Crease" is the word that scientists use to talk about the palmar lines, such as the "Simian Crease" instead of simian line, "Distal Transverse palmar crease" is the heartline, 'proximal transverse crease' is the headline etc. So basically it's a line! (but they are trying to categorise it as a particular formation of line).

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:50 pm

Lynn wrote:hi Jeanette,
"Crease" is the word that scientists use to talk about the palmar lines, such as the "Simian Crease" instead of simian line, "Distal Transverse palmar crease" is the heartline, 'proximal transverse crease' is the headline etc. So basically it's a line! (but they are trying to categorise it as a particular formation of line).

Thanks Lynn, yes that is correct. One could also that the words 'creases' and 'lines' are sort of synonyms.


Scientists usually talk about:
- the 3 major creases (= life line, heart line & head line);
- the 3 finger creases (= fate line, sun line & mercury line);
- minor creases (= girdle of venus, mars line, marriage line, etc, etc)
- and the accessory creases (= all other lines that usually have no specified name).

___________________________________________
sunny

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:18 pm

Patti wrote:...

If we ignore the rules they lay out to follow on how to recognize and categorize all creases, including the Suwon crease, then that's acting as if the report is flawed.

And I don't think the report is flawed at all. They were quite on top of what they were doing. Even to the point of recognizing their formula for T-DoT works best on square palms and would have to be adjusted for 'tribes' with longer palms.

Perhaps you need more justification yourself to point out the Korean's were mistaken and you are keener at knowing what they meant to say than what they actually said.

VI - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males! - Page 9 Korean10

If they do not mean II + III and Accessory II is the Suwon Crease, Then I'll be happy to call it the Cincinnati Crease and go on from there. Am I *all heart* or what!!!

...

Well, obviously Patti's words suggest that I described that the Korean article is flawed, but the reverse is by fact true:

- I never described NOR SUGGESTED that the Korean article is flawed. I only described that if one starts analysing the Korean forumulas in 'out-of-context' considerations (focussed on the 'II+III' aspect)... only then these formulas can induce biased side-effects, resulting in confusion.

- While it was Patti herself who suggested with various claims that the Korean article is flawed. I am referring to her comments on:

1) the aspect of hand-washing;
2) the occurence of the Suwon crease... Patti sees Suwon creases everywhere;
3) Patti's interpretation of the Plato article suggested that the Suwon crease was already described in much earlier publications;

4) and now Patt is also talking about a 'Cincinatti crease' (???) - though I must admit that I do not really understand that comment at all... maybe it was a joke? (If it was a joke, then I will withdraw this 4th point)

Anyway, I perceive Patti's summary as... 'a world-upside-down'!


PS. Again, it was not me who criticised the Korean article on multiple aspects!!

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Post  Lynn on Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:36 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote: this new comment again illustrates that the Korean formulas have an unwanted side-effect:

Because there is only a vocabulary similarity between how the Korean researchers have described the simian line (II+III), Sydney line (II+III plus accessory III), and the Suwon crease (II+III plus accessory II).

But this for sure does not implicate that the Sydney line and Suwon crease can also be described as a 'simian line' variants.

Martijn (admin) wrote:.....However... from Patti's feedback I recognize that because the 'II+III' element is found in the Korean forumula for not only the simian line, but also the Sydney line AND the Suwon crease... I now recognize that the formulas themselves CREATE some additional confusion.
............ And therefore one can not understand the hand-fundamentals behind of these formulas without the accessory comments + illustrations in the article. The forumales are not detailed enough for that purpose.

Smile Lynn, now I would love to hear from you:
how does my observation regarding the side-effect of the Korean formulas sound to you?

Yes I agree with you Martijn.
And this is what Patti's saying I think - that the formula could describe many variants on the Suwon line that are different to the illustration in the article. The article gives us a few more clues in accessory comments & illustrations. But still, I think it needs expanding on by the authors, because obviously it has created confusion. A bit ironic really, as their aim was to improve the analysis of palmar lines and make it clearer!


Last edited by Lynn on Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:50 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:29 pm

Lynn wrote:Yes I agree with you Martijn. (by the way I think you made a typo - you wrote CREASE, did you mean CREATE?).
And this is what Patti's saying I think - that the formula could describe many variants on the Suwon line that are different to the illustration in the article. The article gives us a few more clues in accessory comments & illustrations. But still, I think it needs expanding on by the authors, because obviously it has created confusion. A bit ironic really, as their aim was to improve the analysis of palmar lines and make it clearer!

Thanks Lynn, great to hear that you can confirm my observation regarding the side-effect of the formulas.

By the way, yes - I have recognized the 'irony' of the situation as well... but I can also understand that the innovation does not solve all 'old problems'.


And let's not forget that the hand lines provide quite a few unknown mysteries, because basically it is a very complicated phenomenon (where the individual elements should not be considered apart from the 'full picture').


PS. Thanks for the correction: yes, I wanted to write 'create' (and I made an edit on my comment)

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:34 pm

jeanette wrote:Hi all,
I thought when Martijin showed the prints and gave the information that the Suwon crease, as it says, is a crease, not a line or a branch, but an actual crease. So this would make it, indeed, a noteworth discovery Am I right?
Jeanette.

Hi Jeannette,

I think Lynn & I provided you some answers.
But did we answer the question that you had in mind regarding the 'vocabulary'?

(Please, you're very welcome to continue if you have further questions about the Suwon crease!)

wave

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Post  jeanette on Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:41 am

Hi Martijin and Lynn,
Yes you did explain the vocabulary and I am embarassed as I knew that lines and creases were the same. I spoke to Patti on the other forum and I was telling her that I am in a spell where I feel I do not know anything. I was studying Richard Unger's fingerprints and I have become all sidetracked with the Suwon Line, Hockey Stick Line and ended up where I don't seem to recognise a Sydney Line anymore. I think I will have to take my time and read all the information. I will have plenty of time as we are snowed in, in this part of the country. At the moment I am living in a winter wonderland. Thanks again,
Jeanette.
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Post  Lynn on Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:41 am

Nothing to be embarrassed about Jeanette. When some doubt comes in, it's much better to ask than keep wondering. I know that feeling of 'overload', as you described - feeling I don't know anything about hands - but I've discovered it usually comes just before a major surge of understanding! So, keep warm, happy reading & very soon you'll get that 'lightbulb going on above your head' Idea and all the ideas will come together!

anyway this Suwon discussion is a very confusing & long thread. I have to keep going back & re-reading the messages.

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Post  jeanette on Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:55 am

Thanks Lynn
What you said is very encouraging and has made me feel better.
Jeanette.
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Post  asif amin on Fri Dec 24, 2010 10:32 am

Hello Lynn and Martijin,

Can we recongnize this palm have a
suwon crease or just heart line splitting towards head line?
VI - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males! - Page 9 Dsc00128

This palm link is

https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t472-trident-above-heart-line#4073
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:05 pm

asif amin wrote:Hello Lynn and Martijin,

Can we recongnize this palm have a
suwon crease or just heart line splitting towards head line?
Hi Asif,

No, this is a rather normal 'splitting heart line'.

NOTICE: None of the branches continues to the thumb-side of the palm, but more important: I see no 'extra head line' either - which implicates that both of the major characteristics of a Suwon crease are... missing! So I think it is definitely not a Suwon crease.

Thanks for asking!!

Thanks!

___________________________________________
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon May 30, 2011 4:30 pm


UPDATE!!!


In another discussion we have made some progress regarding how to understand the Suwon crease properly, see:
https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t861-how-to-discriminate-a-simian-crease-from-a-sydney-line-and-a-suwon-crease


And additionally, I can recommend the following BLOG-post (which is featured with the picture below):
http://palmreadingperspectives.wordpress.com/2011/05/25/how-to-classify-the-palmar-lines-the-simian-line-sydney-line-the-suwon-crease/

VI - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males! - Page 9 Common-hand-lines-uncommon

NOTICE: In the picture below the 5th hand describes the essential characteristic of a Suwon crease; the Korean article (where the Suwon crease is defined) e.g. describes that the two head lines are required to be positioned 'parallel' and none of both lines should be longer than twice the length of the other lines.

Quote from the article (figure 5):

"III is accompanied by accessory palm creases which are parallel and more than half of the III length."

This quote describes the requirement for an accessory III line, but can likewise be applied to an accessory II line (which is included in the Suwon crease formula: 'II+III' plus 'accessory II'.

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  Patti on Mon May 30, 2011 4:38 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
UPDATE!!!


In another discussion we have made some progress regarding how to understand the Suwon crease properly, see:
https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t861-how-to-discriminate-a-simian-crease-from-a-sydney-line-and-a-suwon-crease


And additionally, I can recommend the following BLOG-post (which is featured with the picture below):
http://palmreadingperspectives.wordpress.com/2011/05/25/how-to-classify-the-palmar-lines-the-simian-line-sydney-line-the-suwon-crease/

VI - REPORT: Korean researchers discovered the 'Suwon crease', only observed in males! - Page 9 Common-hand-lines-uncommon

NOTICE: In the picture below the 5th hand describes the essential characteristic of a Suwon crease; the Korean article (where the Suwon crease is defined) e.g. describes that the two head lines are required to be positioned 'parallel' and none of both lines should be longer than twice the length of the other lines.

Quote from the article (figure 5):

"III is accompanied by accessory palm creases which are parallel and more than half of the III length."

This quote describes the requirement for an accessory III line, but can likewise be applied to an accessory II line (which is included in the Suwon crease formula: 'II+III' plus 'accessory II'.

As I mentioned in the other post. This is your interpretation of the report.
Patti
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon May 30, 2011 5:43 pm

Patti wrote:
As I mentioned in the other post. This is your interpretation of the report.

Patti, I assume that you comment relates to my comment about that the two requirements for 'accessory III' (they require to be 'parallel' and have enough 'length') can be likewise applied for 'accessory II'...?


If I have understood your comment correctly, then I would like to point out that the Korean article clearly describes that the same principles for any of the variants were applied to all three lines (I, II and III), and this is mentioned in the paragraph where all classifications are summarized:

"Major palm creases were classified in detail. Based on the relationship between I and II, palm creases were classified into closed, open, and meeting creases (Fig. 2). Based on the relationship between II and III, palm creases were classified into normal, simian, Sydney, and Suwon creases (Fig. 3). Furthermore, based on the branches of II and III, normal, simian, and Sydney creases were classified into subtypes (Fig. 4). Lastly, based on variants of I, II, and III, each major palm crease was classified (Fig. 5)."


So, I have only made a 'summary' of the essential passages in the article which describe all requirements for the Suwon crease.

Therefore I dare you to substantiate your claim that my summary is an 'interpretation'... because so far your words only disqualify my effort to summarize the essentials of a Suwon crease.

Please?

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Post  Patti on Mon May 30, 2011 7:33 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
As I mentioned in the other post. This is your interpretation of the report.

Patti, I assume that you comment relates to my comment about that the two requirements for 'accessory III' (they require to be 'parallel' and have enough 'length') can be likewise applied for 'accessory II'...?


If I have understood your comment correctly, then I would like to point out that the Korean article clearly describes that the same principles for any of the variants were applied to all three lines (I, II and III), and this is mentioned in the paragraph where all classifications are summarized:

"Major palm creases were classified in detail. Based on the relationship between I and II, palm creases were classified into closed, open, and meeting creases (Fig. 2). Based on the relationship between II and III, palm creases were classified into normal, simian, Sydney, and Suwon creases (Fig. 3). Furthermore, based on the branches of II and III, normal, simian, and Sydney creases were classified into subtypes (Fig. 4). Lastly, based on variants of I, II, and III, each major palm crease was classified (Fig. 5)."


So, I have only made a 'summary' of the essential passages in the article which describe all requirements for the Suwon crease.

Therefore I dare you to substantiate your claim that my summary is an 'interpretation'... because so far your words only disqualify my effort to summarize the essentials of a Suwon crease.

Please?

Martijn, I provided developmental aspects that illustrate the normal starting location of the distal transverse crease. These developmental aspects corresponds with the normal starting points for the DTC in Fig. 7.

I also explained in detail how I interpreted the report's description of the relationship between I & II and II & III. I think I supported my point of view very well. Your arguments to the contrary were only based on your interpretation of the report.

I recognize and respect that you have been studying and gathering data on the hand features for a number of years, so it is not my intention to discredit you or your knowledge.

It's possible that the Korean's will present a follow up report of the Suwon and both of us (you and I) will have interpreted the current report differently.

I have always written "in my opinion" or "my interpretation" as I recognize that the Suwon is not my 'discovery' and I can only offer an educated opinion or interpretation based on my experience of studying hands for thirty years and very seriously studying limb development for nearly ten.

I would have less issues with your article if it were presented as your perspective and not as absolute fact. When you do a web search for the Suwon Crease there are three main sources, yours, mine, and the Suwon researchers. Your implication that others are in error leaves basically mine.



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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon May 30, 2011 8:50 pm

Patti, my UPDATED review of the Suwon crease is basically fairly simple:

Because I have only 'highlightended' two quotes from the Korean article which explicitely describe all necessary requirements to recognize the 'accessory II' aspect in the definition of the Suwon crease.

Therefore I still don't understand why you describe my short summary from the article as just my 'opinion'. I have just pointed out to the facts presented in the Korean article.


Nevertheless, of course... I appreciate your attempts to explain your thoughts & observations. But regarding the summary of your arguments, sorry... I must conclude that none of those arguments directly relate to what is described in the two passages that I have highlightened from the Korean article.


Finally, I think the validity of this conclusion is also illustrated by the fact that you have not presented any reference to other passages in the Korean article that could confirm your point (or to disproof the relevance of my short summary).

And especially since you appear to use from your side only speculative arguments (and I observe that none of those arguments directly relate to the content of the Korean article), therefore I see no way out here:

I can only ask others not to follow your 'disqualification' of my short summary from the article (but I also welcome everyone to study the details or your arguments and share their opinion).

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Post  Patti on Tue May 31, 2011 3:32 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
I think their approach is very interesting, because it implicitely describes that both the Suwon crease and the Sydney line... are rather complex lines - actually they are both 'composed' by two lines (partly heartline + partly headline, and vice versa).


I'm reading this thread for the first time and maybe am missing something. I thought a Sydney crease has no connection nor is it part of a heart line.

Like Lynn I'm pretty sure I've seen this configuration on women as well as men.

It's fairly common for there to be an additional branch on the heart line bending down to the life or head lines. What defines this Suwon crease from that?

I don't really think this is something "discovered" as much as something "identified" and newly labeled by the scientific community. I imagine as time goes by these researchers will apply their names to all sorts of creases, combination and otherwise.

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Post  Patti on Tue May 31, 2011 3:33 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:
I am not convinced that it is II and III meeting with accessory II ? ie head and heart lines meeting with accessory head line. Why isn't it forked heartline?
scratch

Sorry Lynn, are you talking about my example? Or the researchers' example? Or the description in their article?

Can you please explain again...? (Thanks)

sorry I meant D, but also your example. I don't understand why "accessory II" isn't the main headline, and why suwon is II and III meeting rather than a long forked heartline. scratch
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Post  Patti on Tue May 31, 2011 3:38 pm

Patti wrote:I've now read the abstract completely and it's covered with highlighter, underlining and exclamation points! :-)

The only place that I can find where there is a description of the Suwon crease is on Page 176 of the paper.

"while Suwon creases have accessory II, which is close to I (fig. 3)"
*(see below for context)

Earlier in the paper it distinguishes the difference between minor lines and major lines in that a minor line is "narrower than the two times of the epidermal grove width in prints".


Most of us who have studied hands and the creases of the palms for many years would not have given the the lower, Proximal Tranverse Crease II the label of "Accessory". As it's the more commonly found head line than the upward rising crease they labeled II. It would seem the "Accessory" crease would be the rising crease to the heart line.

Basically, the only other guidelines presented are where it shows what the Suwon is not, by identifying Normal, Simian and Sydney.

I think we need more examples of the Suwon than just the one presented in the article.

Your example may be or may not be a Suwon. Your example is rather common in the sense it's quite close to matching a combination of Fig. 5's A (branches) and E (cascades). Yet it's depth is deeper than the head line (proximal transverse crease II) and matches the quality of the heart line. Your highlighting might be a bit subjective in your favor. I'm not convinced. My fifth sample is closer to their illustration. So I'll take the crown for the moment lol!
queen

I am pleased to note that they refer to the parallel nature of some creases, as this is something I've been working with in my readings for many years.

*
"Second, Sydney creases have accessory III, which is not close to any major palm creases, while Suwon creases have accessory II, which is close to I (Fig. 3). Third, simian creases have more branches than Sydney creases (Table 3; Fig. 4) because simian creases have two major palm creases, and Sydney creases have three major palm creases. Fourth, Sydney creases have more proximal branches than distal branches (Table 3; Fig. 4) because Sydney creases have distally-located accessory III (Fig 3). Fifth, the branched, forked, and accessory variants occur less in II than in I and III (Table 4; Fig. t) because II intervenes between I and III."


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Post  Patti on Tue May 31, 2011 3:59 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti, regarding figure 3... let's keep it simple (Patti, the following provides also an answer to your final question in your 18:25 comment):

- In figure 3A they described the normal palm: two (incomplete) transversal lines: II and III;
- In figure 3B they described the classic simian: a fusion of the 2 transveral lines: II+III;
- In figure 3C they described a typical Sydney line (featured with strong element at the end) + a normal upper transversal line: II+III and accessory III;
- In figure 3D they described a 'Suwon crease' + a normal lower transverse crease: II+III and accessory II.

NOTICE: The word 'accessory' doesn't mean that it is less important - they only describe it secondary because obviously the crease-combination is always the key-issue to be considered!

And the reference in the text that II is close to line I... is not a key-element either: because in the accessory words featured with picture 3... I (= life line) is not mentioned at all!! Smile
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Post  Patti on Tue May 31, 2011 4:01 pm

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue May 31, 2011 4:56 pm

Thumbs up!

(Thank you for presenting those posts... + explaining those posts!)

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