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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 9 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:02 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:Thanks Lynn! Very Happy

With the above in mind your earlier statement below now makes much more sentse to me:

Lynn wrote:"OK Martijn, feel free not to include inner/outer in the labelling of your diagram with regard to your conclusions about 5-element hand analysis. "
Because in the elemental approach the dorsal- and palmar side of the hand are being associated with 'public' (outer) and 'private' (inner), and there is no clear vertical division being used regarding the inner world & outer world.

This is e.g. indicated by that you associate air with 'communication' (let's ignore for a moment the fact that Dukes relates 'communication' with water), because then it appears obvious that the pinky at least plays a considerable role regarding the outer world - because it is THE finger mostly related to air, and pinkies usually also have relatively long 'air' phalange!

This miakes:
- upper ulnar palmar quadrant = air
- pinky finger = air
- tip phalange of pinky finger = air

Resulting in that one can say that in your interpretation of the elemental system (again, Dukes associates water with 'communication'), the distal ulnar side of the hand gets mostly associated with communication.

Can you support this perception as well Lynn?


PS. I just discovered another 'contradiction' in Dukes work... but this one is actually very helpful: because it does perfectly explain why you associate 'communication' with air!!!

Let me explain:

Because... while I earlier described how Dukes on page 31 associates the element water with 'communication', a few pages earlier he first connected AIR directly with... 'communicative techniques':

- On page 27 he writes: "Intellectual = air"
- And on page 28 he associates "intellectual" with e.g. "linguistic or communicative techniques"

cheers Pfew Lynn... I am so glad that I have solved this issue, because so far it appeared to me that you had started using a principle that is contradicted by Dukes' work; but now it has become CRYSTAL CLEAR that this problem is the result of an inconsistancy regarding the use of language in the Dukes work!

By the way, after saying this... regarding Dukes work I could now say that since communication is associated in the elemental system with air (page 28) & water (page 31), this sort of gets the full ulnar side of the hand associated with communication (except for the ring finger).

And since 'communication' always relates to the outer world... this concerns a result that is not far away from what I have presented in my picture.

Anyway, after becomming aware of Dukes principles for the dorsal- and inner hand... I think I better follow your advice to assume that the elemental system does not present clear guidelines for any 'vertical' approach regarding the inner/outer topic!

cheers Wow... Lynn, now all aspects that we have discussed regarding the elemental system finally make sense to me.

Lynn, after explaining this... I hope you now can fully support these final observations?
[/color]

oh! for a moment I thought you had an epiphany, a eureka moment! Idea cheers
But then I read "
this sort of gets the full ulnar side of the hand associated with communication (except for the ring finger)
"
Argh! Oh...nooo! Hopeless NO! *sigh* Sad
There is a vertical and horizontal division of the palm, for example the entire water quadrant, all the minor water lines and start of major water line (heartline) on the ulna side, which you seem to have forgotten about or discounted. Christopher's right - if you'd done Hidde's 5-element handanalysis course back in 2000, you would have understood all this stuff years ago! Sorry, I know you pride yourself on being objective Martijn, but in this instance it seems you are projecting your own ideas onto what is really being said, maybe to confirm your own theories or maybe just that you can't see it 'out of the box'.

(I anticipate that you might say I am too engrained & can't see 'out of the box' of the 5-element system.... but I understand that system, and it works just fine! Plus I am also very familiar with traditional palmistry books, I combine both in my work).

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Post  Lynn Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:21 am

RishiRahul said
Differentiating the inner from the outer; Rather trying to .....Separate the 'inner sense' from the ... 'outer.... and argumenting regarding this is good for theory.

But what is the Practical use of this in applied Palmistry...which benefits/guides/helps people?

First, thanks for your interesting input in this discussion Rishi.
Martijn, Patti & I do seem to have a passion for such discussions Wink , whether it be about the thumb, inner/outer, dermatoglyphics eg triradius /some unusual fingerprint / how to interpret FBI book, Simian / Suwon creases etc etc. All of which may seem to be theoretical - but in bouncing around all these ideas, quotes from books, comparing different ways of looking at hands, I know for sure that over the last 13 years that we have been discussing such things online, my understanding of hands has improved enormously, which of course helps with being able to put it into practise & explain things to people when I am doing readings. Smile


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Post  Martijn (admin) Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:25 am

Patti wrote:Keywords for Little Finger - Auricular Finger (ear - typically fits inside the ear) relates to hearing and listening. The key to good communication is listening. Listening is a receptive inner quality. (my keywords in bold)

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 9 Boy-listening-150x150

Well Patti... communication goes via the senses, because these make the connection with the outer world regarding the 'receiving' part of communication (and the body motorics deliver the 'sending' part of communication).

And yes, listening via the ear obviously plays a major role in the 'receiving' aspect of the communication. This perfectly explains why Johnny Fincham's has renamed the pinky as the 'antenna of communication'.

But the archetype of mercurius also include the 'sending' part of communication, so maybe this explains why other hand readers hardly have adopted Johnny's new vocabulary reading the pink!


So, I actually very much like your reference to the historical fact that the pinky finger has been described as the 'auricular finger'.

Thumb up

But the association does not go much further that the fact that the pinky is the most suitable finger to clean our ears - because of it's (small) size!

By the way, historically this 'fact' is more often described in non-hand reading books than in books about hand reading. So, this classic name has no direct connection with the interpretation of the little finger in the field of hand reading.


PS. Thank you very much for this input, because next to the fact that many authors (e.g. Birla, Cheiro, Fenton & Sprong) has associated the moon with the senses... we no also have a 'cultural' association the upper part of the hand, associated with the most upper of the 5 senses: the ears.

By the way, you described that 'listening' is an inner quality... but that is anatomically not true, because listening requires a focuss on our senses which we use to get our attention focussed on the outer world. Actually, as you probably know... body language experts claim that about 90% of communication is about body language - so next to the ears also the other senses (usually especially the eyes) also become involved in the proces of communication.

Finally, regarding your association with the inner quality involved... yes, thoughts also get involved, but this can be described as a proces where other aspects of the hand to get involved (depending on what the communication is about, but one can say that the head line gets involved... which is directed at the mount of moon - I mentioned that it has been recognized by some hand readers as the seat of the senses).

But this process is actually a likewise example as the issue of 'intimacy' that we earlier discussed regarding the pinky - where I e.g. described how the thenar [mount of venus] becomes involved regarding the 'sexual desire', etc.

How does this 'sound' ( Wink ) to you Patti?

___________________________________________
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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  Patti Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:43 am

hahaha Martijn, I'm afraid you are not really listening. Conversation, communication is a 2 way street. But, perhaps I'm not making myself heard here. Banana waving
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Post  Martijn (admin) Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:27 am

Lynn wrote:
Martijn admin wrote:
cheers Wow... Lynn, now all aspects that we have discussed regarding the elemental system finally make sense to me.

Lynn, after explaining this... I hope you now can fully support these final observations?
[/color]

oh! for a moment I thought you had an epiphany, a eureka moment! Idea cheers
But then I read "
this sort of gets the full ulnar side of the hand associated with communication (except for the ring finger)
"
Argh! Oh...nooo! Hopeless NO! *sigh* Sad
There is a vertical and horizontal division of the palm, for example the entire water quadrant, all the minor water lines and start of major water line (heartline) on the ulna side, which you seem to have forgotten about or discounted. Christopher's right - if you'd done Hidde's 5-element handanalysis course back in 2000, you would have understood all this stuff years ago! Sorry, I know you pride yourself on being objective Martijn, but in this instance it seems you are projecting your own ideas onto what is really being said, maybe to confirm your own theories or maybe just that you can't see it 'out of the box'.

(I anticipate that you might say I am too engrained & can't see 'out of the box' of the 5-element system.... but I understand that system, and it works just fine! Plus I am also very familiar with traditional palmistry books, I combine both in my work).

Sorry Lynn, I don't understand your response at all... ???

(Please... take a moment to read the rest of this post before writing a respons in return!)


First of all... the vertical- and the horizontal division actually explain to how the 4 palmar quadrants are found - so it does not make much sense to simply refer to that... without explaining!

Banana waving (Maybe you got tired... and forgot to explain?)


Second, regarding the various lines & the fingers: nearly all water-& air aspects are clearly much more connected to the ulnar side of the hand... except for a few, I'll summarize them below:


- Regarding the element AIR:

Next to the fact that the air qudrant is found in the upper ulnar side of the palm, usually about (or almost) half of the major air line is found in ulnar side of the hand as well. And the same is true for the minor air line... and the subsidary air lines are often also equally divided across the ulnar- and radial side of the of the palm.

And the air finger is also found in the ulnar part of the hand!

Conclusion 1: the palmar air quadrant, plus the minor air line, plus about half of the subsidary air lines, plus the air finger all relate to the ulnar side of the palm, only the major air line often relates a bit more to the radial side of the hand ... this summary indicates that the element 'air' relates much more to the ulnar side of the hand!

(Sort of true for 4 out of 5 elements... maybe a little bit less because the subsidary air lines also tend to reach out- or start at the radial side)


- And regarding the element WATER:

Next to the fact that the water qudrant is found in the lower ulnar side of the palm, a large part of the major water line is also always found for the largest part in ulnar side of the hand as well. And the same is true for the upper- and lower minor water line (both are usually usually found more than half in the ulnar side of the palm)... and the subsidary water lines are always found in the lower ulnar part of the palm.

Only the water finger is found in the radial side of the hand.

Conclusion 2: the palmar water quadrant, plus the major, minor & subsidary water lines all relate much more to the ulnar side of the palm, only the water finger is found in the radial side of the hand... which clearly shows that 'water' relates much more to the ulnar side of the hand!

(Sort of true for about 4 out 5 aspects.. maybe a little bit less because some of the water related lines manifest for a small part on the radial side)


Now Lynn, I think conclusion 1 & conclusion 2 kind of support the observation that I have shared in my previous post directed to you.

Now, can you please specify where you perceive that I am my 'projecting'...?

(Because I think my summary is 'objective'... and since both water and air are BOTH associated with 'communication' in the work of Dukes, I think it is stricking to see that the various manifestations of the elements AIR and WATER are much... much more found on the ulnar side of the palm! Only... maybe you had never 'spotted' this???)


PS. Maybe you are simply not happy with Dukes' words regarding WATER getting associated with 'communication'... because you only associate it with air???

flower

Lynn, if I missed the 'nail' here with this mathematical summary... I would appreciate if you try to explain it properly (because again, your last response so far did not make sense to me Exclamation )


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:01 am; edited 2 times in total

___________________________________________
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Post  Martijn (admin) Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:34 am

Patti wrote:hahaha Martijn, I'm afraid you are not really listening. Conversation, communication is a 2 way street. But, perhaps I'm not making myself heard here. Banana waving

Patti, why you are referring to your 'two way street'... only to put a banana on top of it - without further explaining???

(In my last response to you I have confirmed that communication indeed has 2 aspects: the aspect of the 'sender', and the aspect of the 'receiver'.... both aspects are related to the pinky: Fincham's name for the pinky refers to the second, but the archetype of mercurius also cleary relates to the first aspect. So what is your point really?)


scratch

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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  Martijn (admin) Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:30 pm


Lynn, by the way... I do have an examplar of Christopher's 'Studies for intermediate Diploma', so if necessary you might als refer to it's content to explain your ideas when Dukes's book is not helpful for you to refer to, etc.


PS. I hope you don't mind that I have not included the full horizontal elemental division for the hand in my previous post to you... but it is sort of irrelevant in the perspective of how the elements are divided acrosse the ulnar- and radial sides of the hand (because in the horizontal division the elements are equally divided across the ulnar- and radial side... except for that in the thumb the element air is missing - which is actually another clue confirming that the element air is more present on the ulnar side of the hand!).

By the way, I could also present a likewise analysis for the elements fire and earth (fire is found about equally present in both sides of the hand, but earth is much more present on the radial side of the hand).

So, while the (upper) ulnar side of the hand more relates to communication (especially related to the element air) which is about interaction with the outer world; and one could argue that the (lower) radial side of the hand more relates to our physical needs & being (especially related to the element earth) which consumes a large part of our inner world;... and finally one can argue that the thumb could be described to relate more to our spiritiual identity (ether) which even more directly relates to our inner world.

And the elements water and fire are postioned (mixed) between air and earth: water more located at the ulnar side than fire; with water representing emotional life and social needs & ideals, and fire representing passion and personal drive & ambitions.

___________________________________________
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Post  Lynn Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:11 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:Sorry Lynn, I don't understand your response at all... ???
(Please... take a moment to read the rest of this post before writing a respons in return!)

First of all... the vertical- and the horizontal division actually explain to how the 4 palmar quadrants are found - so it does not make much sense to simply refer to that... without explaining!

Banana waving (Maybe you got tired... and forgot to explain?)


Second, regarding the various lines & the fingers: nearly all water-& air aspects are clearly much more connected to the ulnar side of the hand... except for a few, I'll summarize them below:


- Regarding the element AIR:

Next to the fact that the air qudrant is found in the upper ulnar side of the palm, usually about (or almost) half of the major air line is found in ulnar side of the hand as well. And the same is true for the minor air line... and the subsidary air lines are often also equally divided across the ulnar- and radial side of the of the palm.

And the air finger is also found in the ulnar part of the hand!

Conclusion 1: the palmar air quadrant, plus the minor air line, plus about half of the subsidary air lines, plus the air finger all relate to the ulnar side of the palm, only the major air line often relates a bit more to the radial side of the hand ... this summary indicates that the element 'air' relates much more to the ulnar side of the hand!

(Sort of true for 4 out of 5 elements... maybe a little bit less because the subsidary air lines also tend to reach out- or start at the radial side)


- And regarding the element WATER:

Next to the fact that the water qudrant is found in the lower ulnar side of the palm, a large part of the major water line is also always found for the largest part in ulnar side of the hand as well. And the same is true for the upper- and lower minor water line (both are usually usually found more than half in the ulnar side of the palm)... and the subsidary water lines are always found in the lower ulnar part of the palm.

Only the water finger is found in the radial side of the hand.

Conclusion 2: the palmar water quadrant, plus the major, minor & subsidary water lines all relate much more to the ulnar side of the palm, only the water finger is found in the radial side of the hand... which clearly shows that 'water' relates much more to the ulnar side of the hand!

(Sort of true for about 4 out 5 aspects.. maybe a little bit less because some of the water related lines manifest for a small part on the radial side)


Now Lynn, I think conclusion 1 & conclusion 2 kind of support the observation that I have shared in my previous post directed to you.

Now, can you please specify where you perceive that I am my 'projecting'...?

(Because I think my summary is 'objective'... and since both water and air are BOTH associated with 'communication' in the work of Dukes, I think it is stricking to see that the various manifestations of the elements AIR and WATER are much... much more found on the ulnar side of the palm! Only... maybe you had never 'spotted' this???)


PS. Maybe you are simply not happy with Dukes' words regarding WATER getting associated with 'communication'... because you only associate it with air???

flower

Lynn, if I missed the 'nail' here with this mathematical summary... I would appreciate if you try to explain it properly (because again, your last response so far did not make sense to me Exclamation )

Sorry if I didn't explain well. Yes I was tired. Yes I am not happy with Dukes using communication as a key word for water, when it is a key word for air.

Regarding my comment about "projecting your own ideas onto what is really being said, maybe to confirm your own theories or maybe just that you can't see it 'out of the box'.". I apologise if you felt it unjustified or harsh. Maybe I should have phrased it more like "being selective about what is being said". I guess I was feeling similar to what Patti said on page 12 of this discussion "I'm disappointed that your discussion boils down to selecting author's viewpoints that most match one's agenda."

For example, you are focussing on the communication aspect of air to back up your agrument about ulna side of the hand relating to outer world. But you seem to be ignoring other key aspects of air such as thought, analysis, observation, the mind, the intellect.
You have focussed on Duke's use of the word 'communication' for water, whereas I don't remember reading that anywhere else. Water is much more about feelings, emotions, intuition, imagination.

(NB I have not given a full list of words associated with each element, just the main key words).

I think it is stricking to see that the various manifestations of the elements AIR and WATER are much... much more found on the ulnar side of the palm! Only... maybe you had never 'spotted' this???
erm, I think actually it was me who pointed it out! at least with regard to the aspects you mention in conclusion 2. Of course I was aware of it, I've studied the elemental system! Wink

Conclusion 1: the palmar air quadrant, plus the minor air line, plus about half of the subsidary air lines, plus the air finger all relate to the ulnar side of the palm, only the major air line often relates a bit more to the radial side of the hand ... this summary indicates that the element 'air' relates much more to the ulnar side of the hand! .....
........
Conclusion 2: the palmar water quadrant, plus the major, minor & subsidary water lines all relate much more to the ulnar side of the palm, only the water finger is found in the radial side of the hand... which clearly shows that 'water' relates much more to the ulnar side of the hand!

Yes I agree with this.

Where I disagree is the conclusion in your previous post that
this sort of gets the full ulnar side of the hand associated with communication (except for the ring finger)
because communication is such a small part of the ulna side of the hand. I agree with you that 'communication' is a key word for the air finger, but if you take the air finger out of the equation, and look at all the other hand features you mention in your conclusions, where is the communication in the ulna side of the palm? If you look at all the other elemental key words I have listed for water and air, surely they are much more 'inner' functions that outer ones.

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Post  Patti Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:16 am

Since Dukes has risen to be the authority of this thread, I would like to suggest to you Martijn that you study pages 121, 122, and top of 123. Where he describes the electric, invisible (inner self) aspects of human nature. Very much similar to what I've been saying all along. The chapter moves on to show that he has used the 4 elements to divide this invisible essence into 4 groups. He did this because:

"In Oriental tradition the energies contained within the physical body are not expected to be visible to the naked eye; they can only be sensed by someone of a particular attitude and ability. This sensitivity takes a long time to develop and refine; thus not all persons can be either cheirologists or doctors of Oriental traditional systems. We may perhaps then wonder how we can assess the energy if we cannot see it?"

"In cheirology there exists both an energetic pulse and natural beat for each function of the human being --- spiritual, mental, emotional and physical energy manifestation, which is determined by examination and comparison of both hands. It is not possible to prove the existence of this energy, though we can subsequently validate its prognostic interpretation. That we cannot prove this principle is not strange; in our daily life we use, measure, and receive benefits from another mysterious and as yet unseen force, namely electricity. A connection between the energy form we call electricity and the metaphysical energy present within the body was suspected almost as soon as electricity was discovered. Ancient Chinese manuscripts describe the currents and tides of metaphysical energy in a manner similar to the ways we describe electricity nowadays."


Also at the bottom of page 129 he gives a good brief description for each element that shows a progression within each element from awareness to actualization.

Anyway... all of these things are included in my comments in this thread, in my own view and way of expression. I think Lynn has this same energetic view of the hands in her own style of communication and from her own experience.

From what it seems by reading this chapter is that Dukes was trying (like others) to formulate a system (of boxes or pieces) that breaks down the wholeness of essences into categories in a way that didn't take a lifetime to learn.


The idea was to grasp the essence from the 'back door'. Keep using this system and eventually you'll learn the subtle movement from one essence to another, the motivations and the preferences that make up a personality. (or at least sound like you do)

In my opinion before one tries to take the system that Dukes created and apply it towards creating a new and improved system, they must first have fully grasped (in practice) the intent of the original system.
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Post  Martijn (admin) Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:16 am

Lynn wrote:... Yes I am not happy with Dukes using communication as a key word for water, when it is a key word for air. ...

Lynn, thank you for confirming that you are 'not happy' with Dukes using communication as a key word for water.

By the way, on page 27 Dukes writes e.g.:

"Emotional = water"

And he also defines 'emotional' with the following description:

"Ability to share and experience with others"


Now, I think this description explains how Dukes associates water with 'communication'; because he appears to describe here the sharing of emotions on a personal level with others... while for Dukes' use of the word communication related to air he appears to talk about a more intellectual level.

Because after he writes on page 27: "intellectual = air", he then describes on page 28 the word 'intellectual' as:

"Linguistic or communicative techniques"


So, I think his association regarding 'communication' with air and water does make sense... because his descriptions suggest that he probably would confirm if we asked him whether 'water' relates communication on a personal emotional level (via the body or the heart)... and 'air' relates to communication on a more intellectual impersonal level (via the mind or the intellect).

How does this sound to you?



PS. Thank you for explaining your problem regarding how I have associated communication with the whole ulnar side of the hand; yes, I understand now how you associate communication with just the pinky (and not with almost the full ulnar side of the hand).

Actually, maybe I was myself not very specific... because what I meant to say is that communication does not get associated much with the radial side of the palm. So, I actually agree that communication especially relates to the pinky finger.

But I can also relate to how Dukes associates communication with water as well: for, I am aware that in the field of hand reading the mount of moon (water quadrant) has also been associated with how a person relates and stands towards the world via the senses... which could be described as sort of the underlying foundation for communication to start developing.

Finally, I observe that hand readers from very different schools have associated the senses with the mount of moon (earlier I mentioned: Birla, Cheiro, Fenton & Sprong... but I just noticed that I misread Fenton's worlds, but La Roux also associates Luna with the senses - however, only Sprong & Birla make the connection very explicite) and I am sure that there are many others)... but I should add here that there are actually many more hand readers who have associated the mount of venus with the senses!???

However, when the mount of venus is associated with the senses... then it becomes kind of problematic when the mount of venus is also associated with 'feeling', because in the perspective of Jung's psychological functions 'sensing' and 'feeling' are two fundamentally different functions, etc.

... thinking

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Post  Martijn (admin) Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:49 pm

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 9 Free-will_thumb

What is 'will' (volition / willpower) anyway?

In Rudolf Steiner's Anthroposofy (a.k.a. 'Geisteswissenschaft' / 'science of the mind') thinking, feeling and willing relate directly to our inner world:

"We each have the ability to look both outwards and inwards. When we look outward we can find the world of nature and ourselves as part of that world. When we look inward we find ourselves in our own thinking, feeling, and willing world."

http://www.anthroposophyforprisoners.org/resources/APO-12.pdf


However, despite that Anthroposophy is not an empirical science... in psychology, philosophy and sociology 'will' is described likewise as a cognitive/ratio related feature of the mind:
- "a property of the mind and an attribute of acts intentionally performed" (philosophy);
- "the cognitive process by which an individual decides on and commits to a particular course of action" (philosophy);
- "will as well as ratio are one and the same" (sociology).


This shows how Steiner's perception of how 'will' relates to the inner world, is fully supported in all major branches of (empirical) science which study the human mind - where 'will' is associated with in respective the mind, cognition and the ratio.

So, while behavior can be described as (just) one example of an outer expression of 'will',,, behavior actually relates to the outer world, while 'will' is a feature of the (rational) inner world.


NOTICE: Willpower is the colloquial, and volition the scientific, term for the same state of the 'will'. 'Will' can also be described as: 'purpose striving' and 'action control'. And 'will' can also be associated with 'self-regulated learning'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volition_(psychology)


PS. I think it requires little words to notify that next to 'will'... also 'thinking' and 'feeling' belong to the inner world. And since in nearly all hand reading systems the upper phalange of the thumb gets associated with 'will' (or: free will / self determination)... I think it is quite obvious why the thumb became associated with the inner world (because it simply doesn't make sense to associate 'will' with the outer world!).

(Next to this 'technical' consideration regarding the funamental quality of 'will'... this earlier post presents a more inspiring perception regarding the role of the thumb in human behavior: https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t2419p150-the-thumb-represents-the-inner-essence-of-man#25823 )


king


The picture below shows how in the system of the human mind 'will' can be recognized to serve as a cognitive feature which has the role that relates to an 'action regulator', which serves to steer/manage/direct the other functions that are active in the psyche:

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 9 Opposable-thumb

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Post  Lynn Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:06 pm

also 'thinking' and 'feeling' belong to the inner world.
and the water and air quadrants (keywords 'thinking' and 'feeling') are on the ulna side of the hand!

I think it is quite obvious why the thumb became associated with the inner world (because it simply doesn't make sense to associate 'will' with the outer world!).
I see the thumb as how we assert our will out into the world.

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Post  Martijn (admin) Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:01 pm

Lynn wrote:
also 'thinking' and 'feeling' belong to the inner world.
and the water and air quadrants (keywords 'thinking' and 'feeling') are on the ulna side of the hand!

Lynn, I know that you associate air with 'thinking' and water with 'feeling'... but after thinking things through... I would like to ask you if this is actually confirmed by Dukes, Hirsch or Fincham?

Because this example indicates that your assocation might turn out to be just a personal association:

For, Dukes (page 60) & Hirsch (page 51) named the 2nd phalange of the thumb (Dukes uses the key-word 'deductive reasoning')... the 'water phalange'!

And it looks like as if the words 'thinking' and 'feeling' do not play much of a role in elemental system - as those words are not even mentioned in the indices featured in the books of Dukes, Hirsch & Fincham... and the labels for the 2nd thumb phalange shared by Hirsch & Dukes suggest that 'thinking' can be associated with various elements - depending on what type of cognition is involved!

For example: I think one could argue here that some key-words associated with fire (such as: 'creative' & 'evaluation') also relate to 'thinking'!???

So, maybe you can explain your association?


PS. The descriptions suggest that air is more about 'intellect', which could be described as mental shapes such as 'knowledge'; however, this can actually relate to the outer world in specific... because knowledge & intellect can actually even be described as 'products' that only relate to the outer world!

For example: Dukes associates air with 'intellectual' which he describes as (page 28):

"Development of personal knowledge and eductation, linguistic or communicative techniques, the ability to develop panoramic understanding"

So, it looks like air is more associated with 'intellect' (knowing)... but be aware: 'intellect' does not necessary requires 'thinking'!

I hope this makes sense?



Lynn wrote:
I think it is quite obvious why the thumb became associated with the inner world (because it simply doesn't make sense to associate 'will' with the outer world!).
I see the thumb as how we assert our will out into the world.

Yes, I know that is how you see it... but I think you have not shared any explaination. And in the perspective of what I described in my former post, I could say that it appears as if you are only using an assumption to justify your interpretation of the world 'will'!

I am aware, that you could point out to the fact that some other hand readers have used a likewise assumption... however, in my former post I have presented evidence from various fields of science which indicates that the assumption does not make sense without an explanation - because the word 'will' and 'thinking' typically relate to our inner world... simples!


PS. Today I have made some significant progress in thinking things through regarding the '4 primary cognitive functions' (+ some associated concepts used by Plato, Jung & Steiner); I expect that it won't take long before I will present a new chart... which will also some labels for various lines!~

(Quite a chalenging discussion... but I foresee that the end result could become very interesting because of it's simplicity!)




Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post  Patti Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:33 pm

It's not like 'Hirsch' and 'Fincham' are some obscure palmists of long ago. They are both peers and members of this forum and currently active in the world of hand reading. Why not just ask them to speak for themselves on this topic?
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Post  knox gillespie Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:26 pm

The thumb can been seen in many layers of models and ideas.. Like ,autonomy, what is the glue that holds the personality in the freedom to learn and grow.. Or, correct knowledge,
three different ways are described about how one acquires correct knowing. These are direct perception, reasoning, and validation. Each of them are valid, and standing alone can provide correct knowing, though you want the three to be in agreement. This description of correct knowing applies both to mundane ways of knowing, such as seeing objects in the external world, and to spiritual insights on the inner journey.
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Post  Martijn (admin) Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:34 pm

Patti wrote:It's not like 'Hirsch' and 'Fincham' are some obscure palmists of long ago. They are both peers and members of this forum and currently active in the world of hand reading. Why not just ask them to speak for themselves on this topic?

Well Patti, I would love to see them join this discussion... but meanwhile I think it's just fine to let their books speak.

wave

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Post  Lynn Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:54 pm

Lynn, I know that you associate air with 'thinking' and water with 'feeling'... but after thinking things through... I would like to ask you if this is actually confirmed by Dukes, Hirsch or Fincham?

Because this example indicates that your assocation might turn out to be just a personal association:

Yes of course it is confirmed by Dukes, Jen & Johnny. I'm not going thru the books to find quotes, but I suggest you try looking at the archetypes, handshapes, headline (major air) heartline (major water), Simian line, and I am sure you will find it. Or try astrology websites and you will find that it is far from a personal association of mine.

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Post  Martijn (admin) Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:18 am

Lynn wrote:
Lynn, I know that you associate air with 'thinking' and water with 'feeling'... but after thinking things through... I would like to ask you if this is actually confirmed by Dukes, Hirsch or Fincham?

Because this example indicates that your assocation might turn out to be just a personal association:

Yes of course it is confirmed by Dukes, Jen & Johnny. I'm not going thru the books to find quotes, but I suggest you try looking at the archetypes, handshapes, headline (major air) heartline (major water), Simian line, and I am sure you will find it. Or try astrology websites and you will find that it is far from a personal association of mine.

scratch Well, I asked after I had already searched for the use of those words... but Dukes, Jen & Johnny hardly use those words. For example: 'thinking' (nor 'thought') is mentioned in Jen's list of air principles.


Lynn, I know that outside the elemental system presented by Dukes the connection is made with 'thinking' and 'feeling'... usually via the work of Jung! However, Jung's work does not play any role in Dukes' elemental system and thus I began to wonder about those two words in specific.

By the way, I am still interested to hear your thoughts regarding the 2nd phalange of the thumb - which in nearly all hand reading systems gets associated with 'thinking'... however, in my view it would have made sense if the association was made with air.

However, I noticed that Dukes & Jen call it the 'water phalange'??? (Johnny appears to have avoided the thumb with any element at all)


PS. In his 2nd book, Johnny describes the air quadrant as the 'public stage'...and he writes literally (page 80):

"The world stage zone relates to the outer world, other people and social connections. Whenever you see a print pattern, line or marking on this area it will influence the way a person communicates or connects with others"


cheers Hmmm... very interesting to see this passage, because this is a clear indication that I might have been on the right track all the time during this discussion. Because I think it is very obvious that Johnny would not deny that the thinking-aspect of 'air' does relate to the outer world - because he associates the full upper quadrant of the palm with the outer world!!!

Now Lynn... looks like Johnny will probably support my new picture (see the picture below), where especially the upper ulnar side of the hand is associated with the outer world.

(Looks like another example of how Johnny's interpretation of the elemental system is a little bit different than your interpretation... remember my earlier questions where I suspected this?)

Anyway, I hope you'll like my new picture a bit more than the 2 preceeding pictures! Very Happy


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 9 Thumb-11


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Post  Martijn (admin) Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:34 am


Here's the evidence that Johnny Fincham associates the upper ulnar palmar quadrant directly with the 'outer world' (which is explictely confirmed by his description):

(Source: 'Palmistry - From apprentrice to pro in twenty-four hours')


PS. I am talking here about the best selling book in the field of hand reading during the past years...!
Very Happy

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 9 Fincha10

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Post  Patti Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:36 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:

scratch Well, I asked after I had already searched for the use of those words... but Dukes, Jen & Johnny hardly use those words. For example: 'thinking' (nor 'thought') is mentioned in Jen's list of air principles.



I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 9 Thumb-11

Actually Jennifer uses the words 'concept', 'theory', and 'ideas' as well as the words 'ideology, intellect, observation, perspective and worry. All related to thought or thinking.

She includes many inner quality words; compassion, grief, intangibility, invisibility, stress, and abstract.

All these and more for the qualities of the element Air. (page 38)
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Post  Patti Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:53 am

knox gillespie wrote: The thumb can been seen in many layers of models and ideas.. Like ,autonomy, what is the glue that holds the personality in the freedom to learn and grow.. Or, correct knowledge,
three different ways are described about how one acquires correct knowing. These are direct perception, reasoning, and validation. Each of them are valid, and standing alone can provide correct knowing, though you want the three to be in agreement. This description of correct knowing applies both to mundane ways of knowing, such as seeing objects in the external world, and to spiritual insights on the inner journey.

I think this is similar to what Dukes wrote about the 3 stages of each element.

For example, for air he wrote: "That which communicates, balances or understands experiences derived from external conceptual sources."

"Communicates" would be the interaction or your "direct perception",
"Balances and understands" is the "reasoning, and validation"

It's more than just communicating. People can communicate and say a lot of nothing. It's the level and degree to which a person takes in the outer world and is capable of comprehending what is being taken in.

I marked the last sentence in bold as I like the polarity of your statement. I think all parts of the self (and the hand in representation) has a balance (and/or imbalance) of positive/negative, inner/outer, projection/reception, passive/active, fast/slow, hot/cold, wet/dry and other polarities of energies.
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Post  Martijn (admin) Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:30 pm


I have now also included references in the chart to the works of:

- William G. Benham
- Cheiro
- Ghanshyam Singh Birla
- Johnny Fincham


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 9 Thumb-15

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Post  Lynn Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:57 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Here's the evidence that Johnny Fincham associates the upper ulnar palmar quadrant directly with the 'outer world' (which is explictely confirmed by his description):

(Source: 'Palmistry - From apprentrice to pro in twenty-four hours')


PS. I am talking here about the best selling book in the field of hand reading during the past years...!
Very Happy

Regarding Johnny's picture & text. He says that lines & markings in this area influence the way a person connects or communicates. Not the actual connection / communication itself.
Johnny has his own system in the sense that nobody else talks about antenna finger, peacock finger etc. You could see this area as 'setting the stage' for the way the peacock performs. The air quadrant being the stage, the fingers & thumb saying more about the performance.
Of course Johnny being the person who discovered the 'passion line' knows a lot about that area of the hand and how it influences connections & communication. Wink

However there is also 'evidence' that Johnny connects ulna side to inner world ....If you look at P42 Spellbinding power, leaning fingers - leaning to ulna side is more directed to inner world, leading to radial the focus is more on externals.

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Post  Lynn Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:34 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:
Lynn, I know that you associate air with 'thinking' and water with 'feeling'... but after thinking things through... I would like to ask you if this is actually confirmed by Dukes, Hirsch or Fincham?

Because this example indicates that your assocation might turn out to be just a personal association:

Yes of course it is confirmed by Dukes, Jen & Johnny. I'm not going thru the books to find quotes, but I suggest you try looking at the archetypes, handshapes, headline (major air) heartline (major water), Simian line, and I am sure you will find it. Or try astrology websites and you will find that it is far from a personal association of mine.

[color=darkred] scratch Well, I asked after I had already searched for the use of those words... but Dukes, Jen & Johnny hardly use those words. For example: 'thinking' (nor 'thought') is mentioned in Jen's list of air principles.

Patti said
Actually Jennifer uses the words 'concept', 'theory', and 'ideas' as well as the words 'ideology, intellect, observation, perspective and worry. All related to thought or thinking.
She includes many inner quality words; compassion, grief, intangibility, invisibility, stress, and abstract.
All these and more for the qualities of the element Air. (page 38)

Thanks for looking it up Patti, I didn't have the time nor inclination yesterday! (Actually I would put grief & compassion more under water's emotional sensitive rulership, but that's a digression! Wink)

It's only taken me two minutes to find several references to thinking & feeling in Johnny's & Jen's books. for example -

Jennifer
P 17 - (Water hands) "are found on feeling-based people."
P33. Air archetype - "Structured thought is the preferred realm..." "The air type is the penetrative thinker...."
P 34 - includes words such as analytical, pensive, thoughtful, keen mind, lively mind - all of which are associated with thinking.

Johnny, Spellbinding power:
P18 water hands - "As they're motivated primarily by feelings"
P23 air hands "Thought, study, teaching, communicating and planning are all parts of the realm of air".
P 95 Simian line (air and water lines running together) "thought and feeling are synonymous".

by the way Martijn would you really argue that the headline (major air) is not a major indicator of the way we think?




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Post  anithapalm Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:58 pm

Hello..

Top phalanges of the thumb displays the will power and bottom part displays logical aspects. I am bit curious to know how we do reading the thumb practically with this idea. how can we read the logical aspect of a man just by reading his bottom phalanges of thumb..! plz anyone explain this...

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