I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Lynn wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Here's the evidence that Johnny Fincham associates the upper ulnar palmar quadrant directly with the 'outer world' (which is explictely confirmed by his description):

(Source: 'Palmistry - From apprentrice to pro in twenty-four hours')


PS. I am talking here about the best selling book in the field of hand reading during the past years...!

Regarding Johnny's picture & text. He says that lines & markings in this area influence the way a person connects or communicates. Not the actual connection / communication itself.
Johnny has his own system in the sense that nobody else talks about antenna finger, peacock finger etc. You could see this area as 'setting the stage' for the way the peacock performs. The air quadrant being the stage, the fingers & thumb saying more about the performance.
Of course Johnny being the person who discovered the 'passion line' knows a lot about that area of the hand and how it influences connections & communication.

However there is also 'evidence' that Johnny connects ulna side to inner world ....If you look at P42 Spellbinding power, leaning fingers - leaning to ulna side is more directed to inner world, leading to radial the focus is more on externals.

Hi Lynn,

Regarding how to interpretate Johnny's comment... I think Johnny's words do not leave much room for interpretation at all, because his literally writes:

"The world stage zone relates to the outer world, other people and social connections."

In his picture he used the words 'public stage', but I think it is obvious that these are synonyms. And this clearly supports the principle that I have described in my picture.

Sorry Lynn, I don't recognize how your words "Not the actual connection / communication itself." give any clearance regarding how to interpretate Johnny's words - because his choice of words in the text and the picture is crystal clear... and actually, I am not sure what you are trying to communicate here.


However, your second point is CRYSTAL CLEAR!

For, your reference to Johnny's 1st book is actually very welcome here, because it indicates that we are confronted with a clear contradiction between both books!

And... while reading the passage in Johnny's first that you refered to, it took only a few moments for me to understand that Johnny has included another element in his 2nd book that points out that actually have spotted here completel revision of his 1st book!

Because I have now found clear evidence that Johnny also presented a fundamental change of view (related to the ulnar vs radial topic that we are discussing here) regarding his guidelines for how to recognize extraversion/introversion - see the two quotes below!

(Lynn, coincidently... in my literature research regarding the them 'Extraversion' about 3 months ago, I had already noticed that Johnny has presented in his 2nd book a COMPLETELY different list of hand features (compared to his first book) that can be used to recognize extraversion/introversion)


- In 'The Spellbinding Power of Palmistry' Johnny writes: (p.41) "If the thumb is held naturally wide-angled, the fingers are also likely to be spontaneously well spread. An expressive extroverted nature is revealed if they're habitually positioned like this." ... (p.42) "Occasionally, all the digits may bear a distinct leaning to the thumb side. Here the person has a serious lack internally. There's no inner life, no balance; they're literally toppling over through dependence on partner, life role, career, family or the need to be needed. People with this pattern don't like being alone and constantly refer to some 'other', some external that gives them a sense of self." ... "Much rarer is where all the fingers lean towards the little finger side. This is a withdrawal from life; the introverted existence of the classic 'anorak'. Here impulse is held in, they don't want to deal with real life and much prefer fantasy or some very personal world."

NOTICE: In the quote above Johnny kind of suggests that the ulnar side relates to introversion, and the thumb side to extraversion.


- However, in 'Palmistry: from Apprentice to pro in twenty-four hours' Johnny writes: (p.197) "Extrovert of introvert - This is probably the most important distinction of personality and there are obvious differences between the two types on the palm. Introverted people tend to keep their fingers closed tightly together, they can't open up easily. The skin quality is often either silk or coarse. The lines are faint and fine or thick and trench-like. The line of consciousness curves deeply into the sea of subconscious, showing an inward focussed mentality." ... (p.198) "The line of consciousness is likely to be tied to the beginning of the vitality line. A long mirror finger can also add to the quality of introversion. Extroverts naturally hold their fingers widely spread. They often have grainy skin and a long peacock finger. The line of consciousness is straight and the lines are generally strong and bold. in particular, there's a large gap between the beginning of the line of consciousness and the vitality line."

NOTICE: After Johnny has suggested in his first book that leaning finger away from the thumb could be recognized as a sign for extraversion (which, by the way, does not make much sense based on my various research experiences) ... in his second book he has no longer used this theory, and he presents an alternative theory that appears to implicate the reversed principle: ulnar side (ring finger) relates to extraversion, and radial side (index finger) relates to introversion!

So, he actually replaced it with a theory suggesting kind of the opposite regarding the perspective of the ulnar vs radial side, because in his 2nd book he describes a LONG RING FINGER as a sign for extraversion ... and a long INDEX FINGER as a sign for introversion (which perfectly makes sense in the perspective of my 'hand model for Extraversion'!!!)


Lynn, I think this is a very clear example illustrating that Johnny must have have changed his mind regarding the ulnar vs radial perspective: in his second book both the 'palm map' + his guidelines for extraversion/introversion point in this direction!!!

Correct?

PS. In his 3rd book Johnny appears to have continued with the approach in his 2nd book, e.g. talking about the ring finger as the 'public face' with various descriptions that relate to a 'drive' towards extraversion (p.22):

"Peacock digit - this digit is the measure of the persona, the public face of a person. Psychologically it's the display instinct in the competition to attract a mate. It's related to all aspects of the drive to show off, developing skills, arts, aesthetics, creative expression, sporting prowess, risk taking, and sense of fun."

Lynn... while typing the above quote, I suddenly realize that many of these keywords look very similar to THE major themes in John Manning's '2d:4d digit ratio' work (e.g. sports, risk taking) - EUREKA: I would bet my money on that the many 2d:4d digit ratio publications in the UK & around the world since the mid-half of the past decade probably helped Johnny to make this change - because his theory linking introversion with (ring) fingers leaning towards pinky... did not make much sense in the perspective of quite a few of the many scientific reports associating a long ring finger with 'testosterone'-related behaviors... such as 'extraversion'!!!

Martijn (admin) wrote:Hi Lynn,

Regarding how to interpretate Johnny's comment... I think Johnny's words do not leave much room for interpretation at all, because his literally writes:

"The world stage zone relates to the outer world, other people and social connections."

In his picture he used the words 'public stage', but I think it is obvious that these are synonyms. And this clearly supports the principle that I have described in my picture.

Sorry Lynn, I don't recognize how your words "Not the actual connection / communication itself." give any clearance regarding how to interpretate Johnny's words - because his choice of words in the text and the picture is crystal clear... and actually, I am not sure what you are trying to communicate here.

Martijn (admin) wrote:However, your second point is CRYSTAL CLEAR!

For, your reference to Johnny's 1st book is actually very welcome here, because it indicates that we are confronted with a clear contradiction between both books!

And... while reading the passage in Johnny's first that you refered to, it took only a few moments for me to understand that Johnny has included another element in his 2nd book that points out that actually have spotted here completel revision of his 1st book!

Because I have now found clear evidence that Johnny also presented a fundamental change of view (related to the ulnar vs radial topic that we are discussing here) regarding his guidelines for how to recognize extraversion/introversion - see the two quotes below!

(Lynn, coincidently... in my literature research regarding the them 'Extraversion' about 3 months ago, I had already noticed that Johnny has presented in his 2nd book a COMPLETELY different list of hand features (compared to his first book) that can be used to recognize extraversion/introversion)


- In 'The Spellbinding Power of Palmistry' Johnny writes: (p.41) "If the thumb is held naturally wide-angled, the fingers are also likely to be spontaneously well spread. An expressive extroverted nature is revealed if they're habitually positioned like this." ... (p.42) "Occasionally, all the digits may bear a distinct leaning to the thumb side. Here the person has a serious lack internally. There's no inner life, no balance; they're literally toppling over through dependence on partner, life role, career, family or the need to be needed. People with this pattern don't like being alone and constantly refer to some 'other', some external that gives them a sense of self." ... "Much rarer is where all the fingers lean towards the little finger side. This is a withdrawal from life; the introverted existence of the classic 'anorak'. Here impulse is held in, they don't want to deal with real life and much prefer fantasy or some very personal world."

Martijn (admin) wrote:NOTICE: In the quote above Johnny kind of suggests that the ulnar side relates to introversion, and the thumb side to extraversion.

Martijn (admin) wrote:- However, in 'Palmistry: from Apprentice to pro in twenty-four hours' Johnny writes: (p.197) "Extrovert of introvert - This is probably the most important distinction of personality and there are obvious differences between the two types on the palm. Introverted people tend to keep their fingers closed tightly together, they can't open up easily. The skin quality is often either silk or coarse. The lines are faint and fine or thick and trench-like. The line of consciousness curves deeply into the sea of subconscious, showing an inward focussed mentality." ... (p.198) "The line of consciousness is likely to be tied to the beginning of the vitality line. A long mirror finger can also add to the quality of introversion. Extroverts naturally hold their fingers widely spread. They often have grainy skin and a long peacock finger. The line of consciousness is straight and the lines are generally strong and bold. in particular, there's a large gap between the beginning of the line of consciousness and the vitality line."

NOTICE: After Johnny has suggested in his first book that leaning finger away from the thumb could be recognized as a sign for extraversion (which, by the way, does not make much sense based on my various research experiences) ... in his second book he has no longer used this theory, and he presents an alternative theory that appears to implicate the reversed principle: ulnar side (ring finger) relates to extraversion, and radial side (index finger) relates to introversion!

So, he actually replaced it with a theory suggesting kind of the opposite regarding the perspective of the ulnar vs radial side, because in his 2nd book he describes a LONG RING FINGER as a sign for extraversion ... and a long INDEX FINGER as a sign for introversion (which perfectly makes sense in the perspective of my 'hand model for Extraversion'!!!)


Lynn, I think this is a very clear example illustrating that Johnny must have have changed his mind regarding the ulnar vs radial perspective: in his second book both the 'palm map' + his guidelines for extraversion/introversion point in this direction!!!

Correct?



PS. In his 3rd book Johnny appears to have continued with the approach in his 2nd book, e.g. talking about the ring finger as the 'public face' with various descriptions that relate to a 'drive' towards extraversion (p.22):

"Peacock digit - this digit is the measure of the persona, the public face of a person. Psychologically it's the display instinct in the competition to attract a mate. It's related to all aspects of the drive to show off, developing skills, arts, aesthetics, creative expression, sporting prowess, risk taking, and sense of fun."

Lynn... while typing the above quote, I suddenly realize that many of these keywords look very similar to THE major themes in John Manning's '2d:4d digit ratio' work (e.g. sports, risk taking) - EUREKA: I would bet my money on that the many 2d:4d digit ratio publications in the UK & around the world since the mid-half of the past decade probably helped Johnny to make this change - because his theory linking introversion with (ring) fingers leaning towards pinky... did not make much sense in the perspective of quite a few of the many scientific reports associating a long ring finger with 'testosterone'-related behaviors... such as 'extraversion'!!!

EUREKA: I would bet my money on that the many 2d:4d digit ratio publications in the UK & around the world since the mid-half of the past decade probably helped Johnny to make this change

Lynn wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:Hi Lynn,

Regarding how to interpretate Johnny's comment... I think Johnny's words do not leave much room for interpretation at all, because his literally writes:

"The world stage zone relates to the outer world, other people and social connections."

In his picture he used the words 'public stage', but I think it is obvious that these are synonyms. And this clearly supports the principle that I have described in my picture.

Sorry Lynn, I don't recognize how your words "Not the actual connection / communication itself." give any clearance regarding how to interpretate Johnny's words - because his choice of words in the text and the picture is crystal clear... and actually, I am not sure what you are trying to communicate here.

(1)Johnny says that the lines, markings, patterns etc in that "world stage - outer world quadrant" "influence the way a person connects or communicates" (with the outer world).

(2) So I was trying to say that, to me, that quadrant does not represent the outer world itself, but rather it contains inner things that affect our connection with the outer world.

(3) But anyway I don't think we are going to agree about it Martijn. Maybe ask Johnny for further clarification of the 'world stage' quadrant.

...
...

Lynn, thanks for your attempt to explain.

I can confirm your 1st sentence, but again I don't see what your first sentence adds to Johnny's sentence... you are quoting him and you repeated some of his worlds ( ).

Regarding, your 2nd sentence... I think it shows a strange reasoning:

Because Johnny literally writes: "the world stage zone [upper ulnar palmar quadrant] relates to the outer world".

And then for me it is completely weird ( ) to see you argue here: "that quadrant [upper ulnar palmar quadrant] does not represent the outer world".




(Sorry Lynn, if I told you that "pinky relates to the OUTER world"... and then I would add some kind of rethoric reasoning which ends me in saying: "... and therefore, pinky relates to the INNER world, because it does not represent the OUTER world"... then I would understand if an outsider would ask us: 'cool, how much did you smoke to get 'stoned'?)


However... I can confirm that IF Johnny would also use your 'weird' reasoning, then I would have simply have to conclude that there is indeed no clear 'change' in Johnny's 2nd book at all.



(More feedback later!)

Martijn (admin) wrote:

And then for me it is completely weird ( ) to see you argue here: "that quadrant [upper ulnar palmar quadrant] does not represent the outer world".




(Sorry Lynn, if I told you that "pinky relates to the OUTER world"... and then I would add some kind of rethoric reasoning which ends me in saying: "... and therefore, pinky relates to the INNER world, because it does not represent the OUTER world"... then I would understand if an outsider would ask us: 'cool, how much did you smoke to get 'stoned'?)


However... I can confirm that IF Johnny would also use your 'weird' reasoning, then I would have simply have to conclude that there is indeed no clear 'change' in Johnny's 2nd book at all.



(More feedback later!)[/color]

Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn, thanks for your attempt to explain.

I can confirm your 1st sentence, but again I don't see what your first sentence adds to Johnny's sentence... you are quoting him and you repeated some of his worlds ( ).

Regarding, your 2nd sentence... I think it shows a strange reasoning:

Because Johnny literally writes: "the world stage zone [upper ulnar palmar quadrant] relates to the outer world".

And then for me it is completely weird ( ) to see you argue here: "that quadrant [upper ulnar palmar quadrant] does not represent the outer world".




(Sorry Lynn, if I told you that "pinky relates to the OUTER world"... and then I would add some kind of rethoric reasoning which ends me in saying: "... and therefore, pinky relates to the INNER world, because it does not represent the OUTER world"... then I would understand if an outsider would ask us: 'cool, how much did you smoke to get 'stoned'?)


However... I can confirm that IF Johnny would also use your 'weird' reasoning, then I would have simply have to conclude that there is indeed no clear 'change' in Johnny's 2nd book at all.



(More feedback later!)

Lynn wrote:I haven't had time to reply to many posts here because so many comments & questions are raised. Martijn you have asked me a few times about the distal phalanx of the thumb being the 'water' phalanx. You have Christopher's book "Studies for the Intermediate Diploma". Page 38, 1/3rd down the 2nd paragraph, about self -awareness, self-evaluation, insight into what we want to do and how to go about it. It brings together all the other aspects of the hand, justifying what we want to do before finally translating it to the top (fire) phalanx where we assert & project our will on the world. (do you understand it? If not maybe you need to read the whole chapter about the thumb?)

Thanks Lynn!

Yes, Christopher's description for the 2nd thumb phalange makes sense (he talks about: 'self-awareness' and our capacity to perceive ourselves, the perception of one's self regarding the patterns of our own consciousness, which he describes as a process of self-evaluation, and our capacity for insight and assessment).

Well, I would like to make 3 points on response:


1) Christopher's summary does not vary fundamentally from the traditional descriptions for the 2nd thumb phalange (he even describes himself that his description explains why this phalange is traditionally associated with 'logic' and 'reason'... PS. rather bizar how Christopher jumped in response to one of my earlier posts suggesting that in the elemental system the 2nd phalange is interpretated completely different: "The lower phalange of the thumb was never associated with 'thought' or 'thinking' in the Elemental Cheirological system, so your assumption here Martijn is entirely incorrect. As already mentioned, in elemental cheirology, the thumb was associated with Ether; and there is a vast difference between Air and Ether.")


2) If I read the Christopher's "Fundamental Cheirological Principles" (p.73), he describes water as:

"The body (earth) is the basis for our experience in this world; sensations (water), by which we experience the world, are based in and derived from our physical existence (earth). Our expression and action (fire) in the world is based on our physical presence but is the direction of energy from us and out into the world. Our mind (air) is the most refined aspect of our experience, intangible and almost elusive; our consciousness (ether) is that which unites and directs the manifestations of ourselves at each of these other four levels."

Well, I see hardly any connection at all between how Christopher describes the fundamental water-principle and how he describes the 2nd thumb phalange. And it appears that his description more relates to the element 'air'... but he calls it the 'water phalange' (just like Dukes does, where I spotted the same problem!).


3) Christopher's description for the 2nd thumb phalange clearly describes an 'internal' process (see the quote in point 2); so I perceive his materials as FIRM support for my view that this phalange relates to our inner world!


Lynn, thanks again for making the reference to Christopher's writing.

Lynn wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn, thanks for your attempt to explain.

I can confirm your 1st sentence, but again I don't see what your first sentence adds to Johnny's sentence... you are quoting him and you repeated some of his worlds ( ).

Regarding, your 2nd sentence... I think it shows a strange reasoning:

Because Johnny literally writes: "the world stage zone [upper ulnar palmar quadrant] relates to the outer world".

And then for me it is completely weird ( ) to see you argue here: "that quadrant [upper ulnar palmar quadrant] does not represent the outer world".




(Sorry Lynn, if I told you that "pinky relates to the OUTER world"... and then I would add some kind of rethoric reasoning which ends me in saying: "... and therefore, pinky relates to the INNER world, because it does not represent the OUTER world"... then I would understand if an outsider would ask us: 'cool, how much did you smoke to get 'stoned'?)


However... I can confirm that IF Johnny would also use your 'weird' reasoning, then I would have simply have to conclude that there is indeed no clear 'change' in Johnny's 2nd book at all.



(More feedback later!)

OK I have tried to answer your questions Martijn. Forgive me if I am not explaining it well, but I didn't say that "pinky relates to the OUTER world" and pinky relates to the INNER world. I said that I think the palmar air quadrant is more inner and the pinky is more the outer expresson of it.

But just because you are not understanding me, or I am not expressing myself well, or we see it differently, does not imply that I am under the influence of any drugs. As Patti previously suggested, why don't you ask Johnny to explain the world stage quadrant.

Lynn, you misread the intend behind my post... let me try again (I should have written this immediately):

Sorry Lynn, you are telling me that even though Johnny says "palmar air quadrant relates to the OUTER world"... you present me some kind of rethoric reasoning why you think that: "... palmar air quadrant relates to the INNER world, because it does not represent the OUTER world"... then I would understand if an outsider would ask us: 'cool, how much did you smoke to get 'stoned'?)


Seriously Lynn, I know that I have not quoted you above... but your varous descriptions during this discussion indicate that are are actually saying the OPPOSITE of what Johnny describes (the green are not quoted from Johnny's book, but he writes: "The world stage zone relates to the OUTER world, ..." ).

Correct?

Lynn wrote:... As Patti previously suggested, why don't you ask Johnny to explain the world stage quadrant

Lynn wrote:...

Martijn (admin) wrote:NOTICE: In the quote above Johnny kind of suggests that the ulnar side relates to introversion, and the thumb side to extraversion.

My knowledge of introversion / extraversion is not as good as yours. I'm not sure whether being dependent on externals is the same as extraversion. You say he "kind of" suggests, so does that mean you are not sure whether he is talking about introversion / extraversion?

...

Lynn wrote:...

I'm glad you are enjoying your 'eureka' moment! But, sorry, I don't share your perception of it. I don't see any evidence that Johnny has presented a fundamental change of view.
So I ask you please take that crown off for a moment . In fact I'll wear it for 10 minutes. (just joking )

I know that medically/biologically the ulna / radial division applies to the whole hand. And you are trying to divide the whole hand vertically from a palmistry perspective into "inner" and "outer". However I have already explained to you that I see it differently, as I view the inner/outer division to relate to ulna / radial sides of the PALM not the whole hand, ie not including fingers, because I see the fingers and thumb as ways of translating & expressing the energy of the palm out into the world.

If Johnny views it the same way that I do, then there is no contradiction or change of view between his first and second books.

All of the things Johnny says about leaning fingers, ring finger, long water finger are things that I was taught many years ago and they work perfectly well together with no contradiction or change of perception.
In my understanding the ring finger has always been the finger of self expression & public image, arts, drama, sport - it is the fire finger so of course it is about expressing your energy & creativity out into the world, which I guess is extraversion. And the water finger being self identity - if it is long it give greater preoccupation with the self - personal ideals, ambitions, beliefs, desires etc so I guess that is introversion - or as Johnny calls it 'the mirror - self reflection'. So nothing's changed!
(have I misunderstood anything that you said?)

You said

EUREKA: I would bet my money on that the many 2d:4d digit ratio publications in the UK & around the world since the mid-half of the past decade probably helped Johnny to make this change

Sorry now I have to give you a banana because all the things Johnny is saying about ring finger & e.g. sports, risk taking etc, are things we were all taught in C.Soc (and most of it in traditional palmistry) MANY years before Manning's research was published.

Martijn, I asked you a few days ago "if you take the air finger out of the equation....". If you take ALL the fingers out of the equation, does that change anything about the way you see ulna/radial, inner/outer? Can you see that there is no contradiction or change of perception in Johnny's work if you don't include fingers in ulna/radial?

anyway that's just my take on it. I hope you ask Johnny about it and we'll see if he has changed his theories, but I doubt it cos all those theories have existed for at least 16 years to my knowledge, tho Johnny gives them new nomenclature to some of them.

Martijn (admin) wrote:
I have created this topic in order to generate further discussion;
so your ideas and/or feedback is very welcome!

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Well, in our PM discussion we appear to have arrived at a point where you question where Johnny has managed to describe/name his 'world stage' properly... so I think this illustrates that there is a contradiction in his work, but the implications are not yet clear (if Johnny would deny and start argueing... then the contradiction would become a matter of rethorics only - but then I could still start a likewise debate about the inconsistencies that I have also spotted in the works of Dukes... Jones - I refer to my earlier response regarding his 'air-like' guidelines for the 2nd thumb phalange and naming it the 'water-phalange')

Patti wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:
I have created this topic in order to generate further discussion;
so your ideas and/or feedback is very welcome!

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Well, in our PM discussion we appear to have arrived at a point where you question where Johnny has managed to describe/name his 'world stage' properly... so I think this illustrates that there is a contradiction in his work, but the implications are not yet clear (if Johnny would deny and start argueing... then the contradiction would become a matter of rethorics only - but then I could still start a likewise debate about the inconsistencies that I have also spotted in the works of Dukes... Jones - I refer to my earlier response regarding his 'air-like' guidelines for the 2nd thumb phalange and naming it the 'water-phalange')

I do wish now since the two of you have moved the discussion to PMs and are ignoring most other member's input nearly daily, you had just gone to PM from the start and not wasted everyone's time as it seems there was a fixed agenda from the start and discussion was not really welcome at all.

Patti wrote:Kind of shows how the elements have been applied based on the current frame of mind and focus of the person making the assignment of the moment.

Lynn has often pointed out that you can't stop with just one part. For instance, the 2nd phalange of the thumb ranges from short to long and waisted to bulging. I'm sure the 5E system would have an app for that.

Patti wrote:I do wish now since the two of you have moved the discussion to PMs and are ignoring most other member's input nearly daily, you had just gone to PM from the start and not wasted everyone's time as it seems there was a fixed agenda from the start and discussion was not really welcome at all.

So, I think that your response is an attempt to put Johnny's "world stage"-theory upside down(!)... by suggesting that Johnny is actually trying to say what you think - even though his description implicates the opposite or your idea for the upper ulnar palmar zone.

Correct?

Hmmm... looks like we have arrived at an 'surprising' point in our discussion, because I think for the first time that you now actually have bumped yourself into a question that you would love to see anwered by Johnny!

Correct?

Patti wrote:The following is from Noel Jaquin - Practical Palmistry (The Human Hand) Pages 5-8 The underlined passages support my view that we express ourselves based on preferences and that the whole hand is about the self... or the inner person.

anithapalm wrote:Hello..
Top phalanges of the thumb displays the will power and bottom part displays logical aspects. I am bit curious to know how we do reading the thumb practically with this idea. how can we read the logical aspect of a man just by reading his bottom phalanges of thumb..! plz anyone explain this...

Patti wrote:Just to add my 2 cents worth here regarding will and logic. My short and sweet definition is the top relates to will in this sense - "Do it because I said so!" and the lower section relates to logic/reason in this sense - "Let me explain why you should do it my way."

Variations in the thumb shows which dominates and how these approaches are used.

Lynn wrote:Martijn said

So, I think that your response is an attempt to put Johnny's "world stage"-theory upside down(!)... by suggesting that Johnny is actually trying to say what you think - even though his description implicates the opposite or your idea for the upper ulnar palmar zone.

Correct?

Hmmm... looks like we have arrived at an 'surprising' point in our discussion, because I think for the first time that you now actually have bumped yourself into a question that you would love to see anwered by Johnny!

Correct?

I wasn't attempting to put Johnny's theory upside down, I was trying to understand it and explain how I would interpret it. Yes of course I would like to hear more about it from Johnny. ( I'm not sure why that surprises you?). So far you have asked lots of questions about 5-element system, which I know something about. But Johnny is the only author who talks about the 'world stage', he came up with the concept, therefore he would be the best person to tell us more about how he sees that quadrant.

Well Lynn, my surprise was the result to see you describing that it is hard for you to understand why Johnny choose the words 'world stage' for the upper ulnar palmar quadrant.

But I can add here that your problem regarding those words does make sense in the perspective that you associate the ulnar palm with 'inner world'; because I think it is quite obvious... that it would make sense to associate any kind of 'world stage' with the outer world.


Lynn, I am willing to invite Johnny to explain here why he has chosen to start using the words 'world stage' and 'ivory tower'... however, I think that both terms CLEARY suggest that Johnny associates the upper ulnar palmar quadrant more with the 'outer world' and the upper radial quadrant more with the 'inner world'.

By the way, Lynn... I don't think there is not much room left for interpretation here, because Johnny writes in his first book on page 7:

"Mercury quadrant [upper ulnar palmar quadrant] - communication, social connections, the outer world, ..."
...
"Jupiter quadrant [upper radial palmar quadrant] - the personal world, ego, ..."


I think this perfectly makes sense regarding classic archetypes, but I think that his uses of the archetypes 'mercury' and 'jupiter' indicates that Johnny does not see much difference between the fingers and the palm regarding a vertical division of the hand.

For, his key-words for the pink (communication) and ring finger (self-expression)... clearly relate to his description for his 'world stage'. And his key-works for the middle finger (attitude to society) and index finger (sense of self)... also clearly relate to his discription for his 'ivory tower'.



Hmmm... as I have already started using the quadrants in my picture, it would now actually perfectly make sense for me to adopt Johnny's term 'personal world' in my picture regarding the upper radial half of the hand!

Then I only have to find some key-words to describe the lower ulnar part of the hand!

... After making this observation I think that Johnny's words in all three books actually speak for themselves.


Lynn, I am still thinking about what's left for me to ask Johnny... (because from my point of view, after reading his descriptions in both books - including the quotes above - there is actually not much left for me to ask Johnny to be explained regarding his vocabulary).

Anyway, I am willing to contact Johnny about this issue... but I would like to invite you to formulate a question that will help you out regarding how to interpretate Johnny's key-words.

Lynn wrote:

Patti wrote:The following is from Noel Jaquin - Practical Palmistry (The Human Hand) Pages 5-8 The underlined passages support my view that we express ourselves based on preferences and that the whole hand is about the self... or the inner person.

I just noticed that Jaquin also uses the word 'stage' in this excerpt that Patti posted a few days ago. "Self is the central figure on our own particular stage". Kind-of fits in with what I was trying to say about my interpretation of Johnny's world stage, the inner self setting the stage before we perform to the world.

Lynn, be aware... Johnny is not just talking about a 'stage', he talks about a 'world stage' or 'public stage' - which he directly connects with the words 'outer world', 'other people', and 'social connections'.

And in the perspective of the upper ulnar palmar quadrant Johnny does not talk about the inner self at all... which he relates in his first book to the index finger: "the relationship you have with yourself and your self-consciousness" + the personal world. And he also he does talk about 'personal world' & 'ego' for the radial palmar quadrant, and he also describes.

So, it doesn't make much sense to associate Johnny's 'world stage' with some kind of 'inner stage' or the inner world, especially... because an 'inner stage' can not be connected with other people & social connections - unless one starts using fantasy and bending everything resulting in that any impossibility can be perceived and described as real, etc.


By the way, in his first book Johnny only talked about a 'stage' regarding the ulnar side of the hand: specified to the (long) ring finger. And in his first book Johnny associated the ring finger with "seeking expression, appreciation, stimulus and the public stage".